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  1. #1

    A question regarding difficulty: Should npc's/monsters be able to kill you in this game?

    Well what are your thoughts should the game fight back or just roll over?


    if you think the game should fight back, how often would death be acceptable?


    I have played a lot of games in my life and never played one where failure and set back were not part of the game. I stopped playing this one when that became the case as it bored me. even as a kid throwing a ball agenst a wall there was the chance it would go by me and i would have to start over. When i started to catch every ball i stopped playing. That is the nature of games and people. We may say we want to win all the time but once we do we stop playing.

    What do you think of this analogy lord sapience? I hope you could weigh in.
    Last edited by enzo; Apr 21 2014 at 12:54 AM.

  2. #2
    Should NPCs be able to kill us? Why would they want to?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by elfincat View Post
    Should NPCs be able to kill us? Why would they want to?


  4. #4

  5. #5
    They certainly can now. I've been killed at least a dozen times doing solo content since Update 13 went live. My level 87 Minstrel was butchered trying to do the Volume 3, Book 10 Chapter in Byre Tor where you have to kill a level 85 signature inside Byre Tor. That signature orc all by himself was more than my Minstrel could handle.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    They certainly can now. I've been killed at least a dozen times doing solo content since Update 13 went live. My level 87 Minstrel was butchered trying to do the Volume 3, Book 10 Chapter in Byre Tor where you have to kill a level 85 signature inside Byre Tor. That signature orc all by himself was more than my Minstrel could handle.
    before that when was the last time you died?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by enzo View Post
    Well what are your thoughts should the game fight back or just roll over?


    if you think the game should fight back, how often would death be acceptable?
    Kinda of a loaded question from my perspective. I consider any death unacceptable.

    While I certainly think the game should fight back, I don't like dying in games, whether or not there is any penalty for it.

    Sometimes that means I run away and rethink my tactics, or go beef up my equipment and/or consumables. Once in a while it means I wait another level before retrying that particular quest. Maybe I move through a mob camp, stopping to observe pathing and spawn locations, like a sneaking Burg even though I'm a heavy armor class. I paid my money and I solve each puzzle in my own fashion.

    In general, though, the opponents should be a force to be reckoned with. My characters should be able to take on a single, on level, normal, mob as long as I've got reasonable quest/crafted equipment for my level, virtues at numbers at least 15% of my level (14 for a level 90), current or previous tier consumables, and level 60 3rd Age LIs at my level. I should be able to take on one opponent using a standard skill rotation with a slight chance of their good luck (several dev crits) turning it into a tough fight. Add a second mob, and I need to either use CC skills or be tough enough to take on two. Single Sigs should be a real tough fight which requires me to buff myself with token, food, scrolls, etc. and use long cooldown skills.

    Or to put it more succinctly, the difficulty level in the original SoA was just fine with me.
    Cener, Ingo, Rilibald, Hesred, Halras, Loringo
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  8. #8
    I have never been boarded by a game. Pirates, sure. But I usually manage to repel them.

    Also, it you quit already, why do you care?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nosdracir View Post
    Kinda of a loaded question from my perspective. I consider any death unacceptable.

    While I certainly think the game should fight back, I don't like dying in games, whether or not there is any penalty for it.

    Sometimes that means I run away and rethink my tactics, or go beef up my equipment and/or consumables. Once in a while it means I wait another level before retrying that particular quest. Maybe I move through a mob camp, stopping to observe pathing and spawn locations, like a sneaking Burg even though I'm a heavy armor class. I paid my money and I solve each puzzle in my own fashion.

    In general, though, the opponents should be a force to be reckoned with. My characters should be able to take on a single, on level, normal, mob as long as I've got reasonable quest/crafted equipment for my level, virtues at numbers at least 15% of my level (14 for a level 90), current or previous tier consumables, and level 60 3rd Age LIs at my level. I should be able to take on one opponent using a standard skill rotation with a slight chance of their good luck (several dev crits) turning it into a tough fight. Add a second mob, and I need to either use CC skills or be tough enough to take on two. Single Sigs should be a real tough fight which requires me to buff myself with token, food, scrolls, etc. and use long cooldown skills.

    Or to put it more succinctly, the difficulty level in the original SoA was just fine with me.
    if the old SOA release difficulty is what you want I guess you are for continued changes to increase the difficulty more? we are still not at soa difficulty yet.

  10. #10
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    Difficulty has greatly improved with U13. I've died a few times, which is awesome. That's how I want it - challenging. But I still think it's not quite there yet. If I prepare, eat food and scroll up and use caution I'm pretty much unbeatable. They're still tweaking and every update has some improvements in balance. Hopefully it will get back to where it used to be.

    So, to answer your question - absolutely monsters should be able to kill us. Especially signatures and elites. Most characters should not be able to take on more than two sigs, and more than one elite solo without having an extreme nail-biting fight on their hands.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by enzo View Post
    if the old SOA release difficulty is what you want I guess you are for continued changes to increase the difficulty more? we are still not at soa difficulty yet.
    I think we're pretty close, but, even with the skill trees we still have a lot of new/different abilities than when we were leveling in SoA. My mini didn't self heal in war speech, my burg couldn't mez from stealth without being detected, hunter couldn't Bard's Arrow until the deed was done, usu mid-40s or more.

    Which could be part of the problem we hear about with the lower levels, they just don't have the points to get the skills that would have otherwise been available to them.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Namesse View Post
    Originally Posted by enzo
    if the old SOA release difficulty is what you want I guess you are for continued changes to increase the difficulty more? we are still not at soa difficulty yet.

    I think we're pretty close
    The difficulty is far from what it was, for example, before U10.
    No one could do 6/12 man content alone, even Wardens. Even 3-mans like WP T2C or SH T2C were totally impossible.
    Now all these instances are not only possible alone, but can be done faceroll

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Castorix View Post
    The difficulty is far from what it was, for example, before U10.
    No one could do 6/12 man content alone, even Wardens. Even 3-mans like WP T2C or SH T2C were totally impossible.
    Now all these instances are not only possible alone, but can be done faceroll
    Well, at least we're noticeably closer, my mini is kiting again and when I pulled 4 mobs last night I actually had to heal and bubble; still hits stupidly hard, but at least I take damage if I just stand there.

    Wardens were solo'ing Helchgam, Bogbereth and Cold Bear at level 60 - at least the good ones were. You're right tho, WP and SH T2C shouldn't be solo-able if damage was appropriate, along with other 3/6 mans.

  14. #14
    Wardens have been stupidly OP every since they were fixed after the RoI fiasco, so they shouldn't be used as a benchmark.

    So I did the Doorwarden instance in Helms Deep and actually managed to get killed by the NPC's. Previously this instance was a faceroll (these are basically story telling instances, so combat shouldn't be the main focus). And I know that my death wasn't (lack of) skill related because you get exactly 2 skills in the instance and I was spamming both of them whenever off CD.

    My guardian is still crazy OP but I have to be much much more careful about my playstyle with RK and hunter.

    I think now some classes need some very targeted nerfs so that the overall difficulty can be scaled back a smidgeon. Reducing heavy armour cap to 60% (guards can still hit 70% mits through class skills however) and letting will contribute to tactical mitigation might have narrowed the disparity between classes a bit.

    I also understand that lower levels are having a hard time since the changes affect everyone, but the end-game gear has such a bigger effect. We all know there is a big difference between being level 95 and being well-geared level 95.

    <rant>
    Quite frankly I'm getting tired of Turbine's attempts at finding balance. We are told that they do a lot of internal testing but I see no evidence that it is producing value, given the initial situation at HD release and the repeated seemingly random attempts to fix it:
    - The 60% mit cap was announced in U13P4 (a mere 10 days before release)
    - We were told on March 21 that stat contributions were being removed from mitigations (https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...t=#post7126040) yet in U13P5 (4 days before release) that will and fate would add to mitigations.

    I understand that game development is an evolving process so nothing said early should be set in stone (and I'm glad this was changed in this instance), but I would like to see you release something more polished to beta rather than rely on the greater audience to be your guinea pigs. You are the Professional Game Developers, not us. We can provide you feedback but we need to have faith that there are experienced 'designers' on the team (and I'm sure there are), not just people twiddling knobs and seeing what happens.
    </rant>

  15. #15
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    not to be a smart ###, but we NEVER die in this game. we cant die... only Gandalf comes back from death.

    I bring this up, (again, not to be a smart ###) because in the story, we win in the end. we know its coming and its gonna happen. we are heroes. second only to the heroes of the fellowship. weve become greater heroes than nearly any of the secondary characters from the story.

    so, this game should be a faceroll. we should be hacking swaths of goblins with each swing.

    whats more, (and ive said this many times, sorry if you've heard this from me) I don't play THIS game for a challenge. the only challenge that has ever, and should ever, exist in MMOs is leading people. coordinating 10+ people for any goal is difficult. solo play has always been trivial, to me, in this game. there has never been a solo quest I havnet beaten on the first try (not one I can think of in 5 years).


    so, that's my opinion.

  16. #16

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by q945 View Post
    <rant>
    Quite frankly I'm getting tired of Turbine's attempts at finding balance. We are told that they do a lot of internal testing but I see no evidence that it is producing value, given the initial situation at HD release and the repeated seemingly random attempts to fix it:
    - The 60% mit cap was announced in U13P4 (a mere 10 days before release)
    - We were told on March 21 that stat contributions were being removed from mitigations (https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...t=#post7126040) yet in U13P5 (4 days before release) that will and fate would add to mitigations.

    I understand that game development is an evolving process so nothing said early should be set in stone (and I'm glad this was changed in this instance), but I would like to see you release something more polished to beta rather than rely on the greater audience to be your guinea pigs. You are the Professional Game Developers, not us. We can provide you feedback but we need to have faith that there are experienced 'designers' on the team (and I'm sure there are), not just people twiddling knobs and seeing what happens.
    </rant>
    Players are guinea pigs in any game, whether they like it or not. And no matter how extensively something is tested in beta, you'll never know how it's really going to hold up until it hits live. That's just the way it is. Ultimately I don't care how they go about it, and I'm not hung up on expectations/judgments of their professionalism or process or whatever, I just want it done - and they're doing it. And it's steadily improving. I actually like the fact that they are being as methodical as they are, because it would be crazy to have to keep doing this major tweak to balance everytime the level cap is raised or new gear is added. Difficulty is still a long way from where I'd like to see it, but I'm hopeful that we will continue to see improvements.

    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    • Any changes or fixes for the Minstrel
      Jinjaah – There aren’t really any specific major changes coming for any classes, but they are trying to sort out some issues under the hood with classes in general and how their primary stats contribute to their secondary stats, how mitigations factor in – stuff they need to clear up before they can nitpick on the individual classes.
      HoarseDev – They are always doing fixes here and there. The devs do read the forums pretty thoroughly, for better or for worse, and they are constantly making fixes. He sees bugs come through, suggestions come through all the time and they assign them, but right now they are definitely looking at the difficulty of the game, the stat contributions, and trying to build challenge in across the board. Now that they have the classes systemically at a place where they are a lot easier to work with, now they want to make sure that the challenge of the game gets to a point where people are happy with it. And from there they can really start digging into very individual skills and start picking them apart.
    • In the last update there was a patch note that said monsters will be more aggressive and use their high powered skills more often. Will you be continuing to make monsters more powerful, or will you work on making the classes less powerful, or a bit of both for U13
      HoarseDev – Monsters need to be more dynamic and keep us on our toes, so they do need powerful skills, that’s part of it, but if they just crank that up there will still be a problem where people are hitting their stat caps really easily. Basically under the hood there are a bunch of big magical formulas and whatever, and right now people are getting too close to stat cap without having to get better gear. So what they want to make sure they do on a release when they ratchet up level cap is to ensure people are facing new monsters that do new, interesting things, and that there’s a really good reason to go out and get better gear. So to widen that band of what you currently have to where you are striving to get to. And they’re really confident they can do that. Between 13 and 13.1 with a little course correction along the way because they never know what’s going to happen until the live players get their hands on it, no matter how much they put it out on Bullroarer. He believes they can get to a sweet spot where things are interesting and challenging again, where people don’t feel like they’re just rolling over the bad guys.

  18. #18
    Whatever Turbine does with the difficulty level of the game, I hope they do it on a per character basis and not game wide. I do not desire to go back to having to find someone to group with in order to complete quests. I still have quests from years ago that I have not completed because I have no one to group up with in order to complete them. Not many but a few. If they create some sort of difficulty slider, pocket item, or some sort of skill that allows us to change the difficulty if we desire to, that would be okay.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    not to be a smart ###, but we NEVER die in this game. we cant die... only Gandalf comes back from death.

    I bring this up, (again, not to be a smart ###) because in the story, we win in the end. we know its coming and its gonna happen. we are heroes. second only to the heroes of the fellowship. weve become greater heroes than nearly any of the secondary characters from the story.

    so, this game should be a faceroll. we should be hacking swaths of goblins with each swing.

    whats more, (and ive said this many times, sorry if you've heard this from me) I don't play THIS game for a challenge. the only challenge that has ever, and should ever, exist in MMOs is leading people. coordinating 10+ people for any goal is difficult. solo play has always been trivial, to me, in this game. there has never been a solo quest I havnet beaten on the first try (not one I can think of in 5 years).


    so, that's my opinion.
    Boromir died. You are no Boromir.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by enzo View Post
    Well what are your thoughts should the game fight back or just roll over?


    if you think the game should fight back, how often would death be acceptable?


    I have played a lot of games in my life and never played one where failure and set back were not part of the game. I stopped playing this one when that became the case as it bored me. even as a kid throwing a ball agenst a wall there was the chance it would go by me and i would have to start over. When i started to catch every ball i stopped playing. That is the nature of games and people. We may say we want to win all the time but once we do we stop playing.

    What do you think of this analogy lord sapience? I hope you could weigh in.
    Well until recently i would have said hell yeah things needed to get harder...were way too easy for too long blah blah blah etc etc etc.....BUT have recently changed my views, ill explain.

    Come update 13 i thought lotro would be sorted....game harder etc etc, game would be back on track etc etc...oh how wrong i was. What i didnt realise was the amount of faceroll fanboys that exist in the lotro universe, until update 13 came and they all started crying like little schoolgirls how they keep dying....how they cant survive any more button mashing every dps skill they have. And theres a HUGE amount of them....just read the forums.....

    I died 5 times taking on them 5 mobs in the north downs....my dps skills werent enough.....what are these 'heal/debuff/cc' skills people mention...ive never heard of them until now.....i didnt know tactics existed in lotro beyond 'dps skill 1...dps skill 2' (id go further but they cant handle 3 skills to kill each mob)

    Ive concluded the facerollers are all morons who love the game easy and they out-number the rest of us considerably....so please turbine change the game back before they leave, or u wont have enough people to keep it going.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by enzo View Post
    Well what are your thoughts should the game fight back or just roll over?

    if you think the game should fight back, how often would death be acceptable?

    I have played a lot of games in my life and never played one where failure and set back were not part of the game. I stopped playing this one when that became the case as it bored me. even as a kid throwing a ball agenst a wall there was the chance it would go by me and i would have to start over. When i started to catch every ball i stopped playing. That is the nature of games and people. We may say we want to win all the time but once we do we stop playing.

    What do you think of this analogy lord sapience? I hope you could weigh in.
    I'm not "Lord" Sapience, but the question isn't whether NPCs should be able to defeat PCs, it's what level of challenge is appropriate. At the moment, the spectrum between the least powerful PCs and most powerful PCs has gotten so large that some people are having trouble with single white mobs while others are soloing raids.

    What Turbine has to do before even trying to balance content difficulty is to narrow the power gap.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug View Post
    Boromir died. You are no Boromir.
    not sure how this fits. lots of people die in this world. we don't die, YET. if the player-character died, we would be out of the game. gameover, literally. so, we don't die. resurrection is only for Gandalf. we lose morale and just kinda give-up, from a game-perspective. our characters MUST make it to the destruction of the ring, at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by pvdtheking View Post
    Ive concluded the facerollers are all morons who love the game easy and they out-number the rest of us considerably....so please turbine change the game back before they leave, or u wont have enough people to keep it going.
    are you including me? please don't. I AM a fan of faceroll content. in story-based games, I do not want some boss (or whatever content or mechanic) keeping me from finishing the story.... it happened to me ONCE, and im still bitter!

    I don't consider myself a moron... who does?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    not sure how this fits. lots of people die in this world. we don't die, YET. if the player-character died, we would be out of the game. gameover, literally. so, we don't die. resurrection is only for Gandalf. we lose morale and just kinda give-up, from a game-perspective. our characters MUST make it to the destruction of the ring, at least.



    are you including me? please don't. I AM a fan of faceroll content. in story-based games, I do not want some boss (or whatever content or mechanic) keeping me from finishing the story.... it happened to me ONCE, and im still bitter!

    I don't consider myself a moron... who does?
    You readily admit you like things easy...the majority say they 'want a challenge' but u 13 was too much...### no it wasn't!

    Anyways yes didn't include you

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by SapienChavez View Post
    not sure how this fits. lots of people die in this world. we don't die, YET. if the player-character died, we would be out of the game. gameover, literally. so, we don't die. resurrection is only for Gandalf. we lose morale and just kinda give-up, from a game-perspective. our characters MUST make it to the destruction of the ring, at least.
    My point is you say you're a hero secondary only to the heroes of the fellowship. Well Boromir tried to solo a bunch of orcs and got killed. You should also. If Boromir can't slay waves of orcs single handedly without making it, no way should you. Since we do come back from death (and in this game lose absolutely nothing but time), there's even less reason to worry about death. If you pull too many enemies that should be your fault and you should learn from it.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonyx View Post
    I'm not "Lord" Sapience, but the question isn't whether NPCs should be able to defeat PCs, it's what level of challenge is appropriate. At the moment, the spectrum between the least powerful PCs and most powerful PCs has gotten so large that some people are having trouble with single white mobs while others are soloing raids.

    What Turbine has to do before even trying to balance content difficulty is to narrow the power gap.
    Turbine narrowed the power gap for characters by introducing skrait trees that lock people into certain skills/abilities and also inflating the stats/levels of pretty much all new gear. If someone gears their character as they should (i.e. don't keep using gear several levels below their own level) then the power gap stays pretty darn close. I think a lot of the gap happens when certain players are refusing to properly set up their Legendary Items and keep using very low level/non updated gear.

    A person skilled with their character could perform quite well with purple gear and third age legendaries.

    I think what has happened is that after Helm's Deep (and a little before, during RoR) things got very very easy so people who hated the Legendary Items system would hang onto their severely underleveled items all the way through to level cap.
    Chromite (Hunter) - Grumbletocks (Guardian) on Landroval, Appendage (Hunter) on Brandywine

 

 
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