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  1. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
    Champs are just not OP'd like they used to be. I'm sorry you could win 3v1 easily before and now you can't. It's a typical freep complaint, so you're not alone. RK's are out here complaining, LM's, minis...Creeps have a healer. I'd adjust.


    >implies champions having been overpowered
    >noted elendilmir raid warg

    yeah okay there guy, lay off the bath salts. What's ironic is that I could actually easily outheal the damage done by about... 2-3 champions on a low ranked warleader, a class I felt was quite sufficient in healing capability, as well as buffing. At no point did I think our groups with defilers could use about a 3-4X boost in healing strength, I recognized the problems that defilers had just like anyone. Except I guess Turbine.

    Quote Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug View Post
    This is true. And yellow champs still have close to the best sustained dps no?
    we in fact may be the lowest DPS class whose role is DPS, under quite a few buffing/tank classes and probably heal classes too.
    Last edited by Thorandril; Apr 28 2014 at 01:50 AM.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug View Post
    This is true. And yellow champs still have close to the best sustained dps no?
    hells to the no.

  3. #53
    1. HD Red champs are still broken hope they are going to fix them soon..

    2. Yellow champs aoe was very important on fraids before U13 although now it's not so serious by the time on basic creep heals nothing is going to fall from aoe damage.. (only single debuffed targets now can fall)

    3. I think the most helpfull thing a champ can do on a fraid after U13 is to slow kiting targets with champions duel and give some time to focoused freeps from creep melees (reavers/wargs) with horns (champions/gondor/crafted) and spam blade walls (aoe -10% dmg debuff) / rooting hamstrings
    Last edited by jivius; Apr 28 2014 at 05:51 AM.

  4. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    3,760
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Hah good one. My warden (undergeared) did 11k ST DPS in PvE.
    I'm probably going to call bull#### on this being a viable number that could be consistently repeated. Not that I'm arguing wardens have been over the top in their damage capabilities for a long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dernudan View Post
    I am confused at what you are saying in this post.

    Is it that a group of 12 should beat a group of 8 of equal skill and rank? Because thats what I hear.

    I think that the 8 should only be able to win if they are much more skilled and work together much better than that group of 12
    Yes that's precisely what I'm saying, but equal skill and composition. I've long since thought that rank should have nothing major to do with success.

    The current GV camps, much the same as previous grams camp involve very little 'working together' or skill. Anyone could teach a down syndrome kid how to healtag and range spike damage on targets in only 5 minutes.

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Yes that's precisely what I'm saying, but equal skill and composition. I've long since thought that rank should have nothing major to do with success.
    Yes, I agree that rank should have nothing major, but it is and for now we have to live with that.

    However, if two groups have equal skill, rank, and composition, the larger group should win. If it is balanced so that freeps are designed to be stronger than creeps because there are less of them, what happens when there are equal or more freeps than creeps.

    I also think that skill and composition should be a factor, but when both of those are equal but numbers is not, the numbers should give the winning boost to the other side.
    Withywindle characters-Caesaran (warden), Dernudan (Lore master)
    Brandywine characters- Dernudan (champion), Denthur (guardian), Delphinianic(captain)

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Otdanon View Post
    Not at all. Champs used to be OP during ROI, and that's about all. Also, I don't have much experience creepside, but I've been occasionally playing a warg for the last 2-3 years and never felt weak.

    Besides, I don't see what my R13 has to do with the current state of pvp. First of all, everyone knows that rank is more of an indicator of time invested than skill. Secondly, in my particular case I do expect to perform successfully on the battlefield, because I know my class well, always have a decent build and possess a lot of experience. Hence, it is not surprising that previously I didn't have reasons to complain and was effective both in open field fights and in 1 vs 1. But nowadays, I repeat, the state of the game makes no sense, because I can't damage WLs and defilers at all, while any reaver who has impale (and most of them buy it from the store) dispatches me rather quickly. It's not possible to beat a normal BA too. And so on. On my warg even in the worst times for creeps I could still beat over 50% of the freeps 1 vs 1. So it feels kind of weird when I don't see a way of improving my champ to the extent of being competitive even against green-ranked creeps...
    1) I am on your server, I know how you play
    2) Champs were OP in RoI and RoR... dont delude yourself.
    3) I'll admit, champ got hit hard in HD update. But you aren't gods among men (or orcs) anymore. I have a champ friend that survived and killed a 4 man warg back in RoR, so yes, you were OP.
    4) Reavers, using amination cancelers, you can get off impale in about 2-3s, same thing with eye rake for wargs. BAs has a stun and a knockdown, and WL and Deffys are healers... you ever try killing a healing mini or RK alone.... its essentially a B****. Just be happy they dont have a flop.
    I dont see Tarlos, or Hayborn complaining... learn to hybrid and youll be fine. Because yes, a champion can actually die now... get used to it
    (Played a hunter through the moors before I ran out of ViP, I know what it means to squish)

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    I'm probably going to call bull#### on this being a viable number that could be consistently repeated. Not that I'm arguing wardens have been over the top in their damage capabilities for a long time.
    Well, say what you want, but it's true. Admittedly, 2 red captains, but I hope you did not think I did that unbuffed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabian49 View Post
    2) Champs were OP in RoI and RoR... dont delude yourself.
    I think on par with Reavers/BA's honestly.
    3) I'll admit, champ got hit hard in HD update. But you aren't gods among men (or orcs) anymore. I have a champ friend that survived and killed a 4 man warg back in RoR, so yes, you were OP.
    So... Because your friend killed four wargs, champs were OP? Or were wargs just UP and terribad (wargs in packs tend to be).
    4) Reavers, using amination cancelers, you can get off impale in about 2-3s
    Lol. I suggest you learn the game mechanics, or stop exaggerating.
    Last edited by Giliodor; Apr 28 2014 at 01:43 PM.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Well, say what you want, but it's true. Admittedly, 2 red captains, but I hope you did not think I did that unbuffed.
    I don't think it's ever implicit that someone comparing the dps of 2 classes has 2 red captains for both dps parses.

    There's no beating around the bush champs were amazing in RoR. They were competitive with every class, and had an advantage in most 1v1s, and could provide necessary dps in rvr. And now they're definitely the worst class no matter what type of action you're getting. 1v1, 6v6, 12v12, champions are useless except for what the other gentleman posted about our champions duel slowing targets for other freeps to catch up to and kill lol. Yellow line is pointless if they have defiler hots outhealing off-dps from aoes. A blue traited mini wsa getting chased by a reaver the other day, and I came up on him and started dpsing. The reaver literally got me to half morale with aoes alone and I couldn't even get him to 75% when he was using wrath.

    The only thing i'm good for now is target calling if i'm leading a raid.....
    Last edited by mrfigglesworth; Apr 28 2014 at 01:53 PM.

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Well, say what you want, but it's true. Admittedly, 2 red captains, but I hope you did not think I did that unbuffed.
    adding in variables like group dependent buffs/debuffs makes the numbers of the claim itself basically meaningless. I've had a 19k dps 1 minute ST parse on warden, but that was on a mob with its own personal +inc melee damage debuff, reveal weakness, and 2 red cappies using the Oathies reset exploit armour, and I think an LM using ancient craft. Its a positively ridiculous figure and has no real relevance to anything else, but it happened.

  10. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I think on par with Reavers/BA's honestly.
    At higher ranks or store bought yes... until you have Gash Stun, Headshot trait, IVT, A champ would kill a BA. Reavers, I cant comment as much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Lol. I suggest you learn the game mechanics, or stop exaggerating.
    And I know revaers on RIddermark (Umshildru, Kangrish to name two) that get the bleeds on and impale within that time. Not exaggeration....

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I don't think it's ever implicit that someone comparing the dps of 2 classes has 2 red captains for both dps parses.
    I was only pointing out the huge cap.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    adding in variables like group dependent buffs/debuffs makes the numbers of the claim itself basically meaningless. I've had a 19k dps 1 minute ST parse on warden, but that was on a mob with its own personal +inc melee damage debuff, reveal weakness, and 2 red cappies using the Oathies reset exploit armour, and I think an LM using ancient craft. Its a positively ridiculous figure and has no real relevance to anything else, but it happened.
    Well, same goes here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabian49 View Post
    At higher ranks or store bought yes... until you have Gash Stun, Headshot trait, IVT, A champ would kill a BA. Reavers, I cant comment as much.
    ... Isn't that the way it's supposed to be? Should a class be able to kill another class without its essential skills?


    And I know revaers on RIddermark (Umshildru, Kangrish to name two) that get the bleeds on and impale within that time. Not exaggeration....
    Then I suggest you freeps over there l2move, if they can do that on a player. Takes about 5s-6s on normal freeps. Can take up to 12s on a good one with proper CC.

  12. #62
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Germany
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    44
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I was only pointing out the huge cap.



    Well, same goes here.



    ... Isn't that the way it's supposed to be? Should a class be able to kill another class without its essential skills?




    Then I suggest you freeps over there l2move, if they can do that on a player. Takes about 5s-6s on normal freeps. Can take up to 12s on a good one with proper CC.
    No offense here, but thats indeed very possible. And thanks to Blade toss l2move won't help a lot. I think 3 seconds is a realistiv time to get of Impale last time I played my reaver I got impales usually of in 4-5 seconds but then again I've become a very casual player over the last month and I'm for sure not the best reaver out there.

  13. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by GilendirD View Post
    No offense here, but thats indeed very possible. And thanks to Blade toss l2move won't help a lot. I think 3 seconds is a realistiv time to get of Impale last time I played my reaver I got impales usually of in 4-5 seconds but then again I've become a very casual player over the last month and I'm for sure not the best reaver out there.
    2-3 seconds is not possible when the freep has a bit of a clue.

  14. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Boston
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    3,705
    Quote Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug View Post
    Yes good wargs could, which is my point. With how squishy wargs could be, it actually took more than just claw spamming to win.
    Actually bad wargs could too maybe not against a guardian or warden but some of the other classes np.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    2-3 seconds is not possible when the freep has a bit of a clue.
    2-3s has to be an exaggeration, but I can consistently get off a full (4 bleed) impale rotation against any freep in 3-5s if I have all my immediates up. Kiting and CC is negligible because you use resilience during the rotation, and you can simply slow them beforehand.

    And I could see someone getting off a 2 bleed impale in 2-3s, if that means anything.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I don't think it's ever implicit that someone comparing the dps of 2 classes has 2 red captains for both dps parses.

    There's no beating around the bush champs were amazing in RoR. They were competitive with every class, and had an advantage in most 1v1s, and could provide necessary dps in rvr. And now they're definitely the worst class no matter what type of action you're getting. 1v1, 6v6, 12v12, champions are useless except for what the other gentleman posted about our champions duel slowing targets for other freeps to catch up to and kill lol. Yellow line is pointless if they have defiler hots outhealing off-dps from aoes. A blue traited mini wsa getting chased by a reaver the other day, and I came up on him and started dpsing. The reaver literally got me to half morale with aoes alone and I couldn't even get him to 75% when he was using wrath.

    The only thing i'm good for now is target calling if i'm leading a raid.....
    +1. I've become the kin's burg pack bait or small group leader who just targets for the ranged and tacticals.

    I've never claimed to be a good champ... and anyone who's played with me in small groups or raids knows I tend to fall on my face because I try to have fun and try not to take it too seriously. I know plenty of other champs on Brandy who are way better than I and know the class better... we're mostly all in agreement here. We're a joke now.

    Pre HD, I could run in Fervour stance and at least cause some pain against creeps. I learned mouse turning and used 2 or 3 rotations depending on how much self healing I needed. I didn't always win.. in fact, I lost alot. But they were close enough that I felt like I put up a good fight against a reaver or BA that took me down.. I walked away from those thinking about what I should have done differently.

    Even now with decked out 95 FA's with class specific HD plats or the new fangorn set stacked for survivability, It's not even close. Our DPS is pitiful compared to a burg or ward, and our survivability is only decent in Blueline.. our slowest and lowest DPS line. I can beat on a WL, Def or BA for the first 10 seconds of a fight without doing much to move his morale bar... and that's before his heals kick in.

    I do think the overall balance of the moors is better. Creeps are powerful enough to deal with a fully decked out freep now, good fraids actually have to work against a craid for a change and that's great.

    But Champs have been sadly left in the dust.

  17. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    2-3s has to be an exaggeration, but I can consistently get off a full (4 bleed) impale rotation against any freep in 3-5s if I have all my immediates up. Kiting and CC is negligible because you use resilience during the rotation, and you can simply slow them beforehand.

    And I could see someone getting off a 2 bleed impale in 2-3s, if that means anything.
    By that logic, I can get off a 0 bleed Impale in .5s

  18. #68
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
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    622
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    Yellow line is pointless if they have defiler hots outhealing off-dps from aoes.
    I understand champs are very weak in the present build, but IMO they are very effective in small group fights against the horde when yellow line.

  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    I understand champs are very weak in the present build, but IMO they are very effective in small group fights against the horde when yellow line.
    obviously always depends on the makeups of the two groups, but if the other group has a decent defiler, I won't get kills from aoe.

  20. #70
    creeps are a bit to strong now with freeps having to loss dps to trade for mits which seems fair but the outrageous amount of moral they have they should have at least dropped them by 25 - 30%

  21. #71
    Creeps aren't overpowered.

    However, they are set up in a way (70k+ morale, mitigations out the wazoo) that only promotes zerging.

    Ever try to 1v1 a high-ranking WL or Reaver or even a Spider? And if they have a Defiler with them, forget it.

    And I really don't see how siege machines are going to make anything better. Opposing players will just rush them and the players on them. Plus I am sure there will be some real-money cost involved when it comes to using them, but that's another post.
    Note: My posts are my OPINION, and are NOT intended to "troll", "provoke", "bait" or "harass".
    If my posts are taken as such, then I humbly apologize in advance.


  22. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    I understand champs are very weak in the present build, but IMO they are very effective in small group fights against the horde when yellow line.
    I think this is the best option for us champs in groups. A well placed AoE stun in a knot of WL's and 'filers seems to get quick attention for focus fire in RvR. I've interpreted that as being disruptive to the flow of battle enough to warrant creeps attention.

    Other than that we just run around and do our best impersonation of a blender. Rend/Bleeds and general AoE damage fail to do enough in a fight with a defiler in the group though. Def HoT's > Champ T4 bleeds
    Last edited by Gromit1710; Apr 29 2014 at 04:51 PM.

  23. #73
    I gave up after getting one-shotted mostly, playing an rk is unbearable now and the debuffs against an rk are unbelievable.. -8k armour value makes an rk almost 100% vulnerable even with decent mits, I also want to mention how OP the Impale+Dev combo on a reaver
    And when a r5 Defiler can out-heal 4 decent pvmpers you know there is something not right.

    I don't know but it's much easier for me to play on creepside, it's almost like killing npcs now.. maybe even a bit easier.

  24. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by inthegame View Post
    creeps are a bit to strong now with freeps having to loss dps to trade for mits which seems fair but the outrageous amount of moral they have they should have at least dropped them by 25 - 30%
    I'd like to see this too, leave everything the way it is now and drop creep morale 25%. Before this update it didn't really matter how much morale creeps had it was so heavily skewed towards freeps.

  25. #75
    That'd make creep heals relatively even more potent. I don't think that's what we need right now. Lowering their morale pools will also make my hunter 3 shot creeps.

 

 
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