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  1. #1

    Having Trouble Understanding the Whining and Counter-Whining

    First, who I am. I have level capped freep of every class except LM and RK, and have played Moors on all of them, solo and grouped. I have ranked creep of every class, though only 3 r9 and above (the rest at least r6). Have played freepside and creepside on two different servers, spending about equal time on both sides, though heaver creepside last 6 months or so. I am VIP, so I, too, pay to be in the Moors on both sides. I have used store items on both sides, and still do sometimes, if heavily outmatched in an RvR situation by people doing same. I prefer grouped to solo play. I think I am better on heals than dps, so play healers more whichever side I'm on. So use those filters to judge me, if you need to.

    After a couple of days of everybody flailing around, last night in BW Moors, out came a freep raid. They had no scaled players (obvious ones at least, or if there were, I think they probably had ranked freeps of other classes so had a clue). They had taken a bit of time to gear up better (like, couple of days), think about virtues and tactics, and how to build a group to counter decent freep heals and dps. We engaged. We fought intensely. There were deaths on both sides. We tried strategies that worked and wiped them. They came back and reengaged with different tactics, and wiped us. Regroup, lather, rinse repeat--wiped us again. Next time we wiped them.

    The fights were long, but not absurdly long. Both sides got a load of points. It required thought, planning, tactics, attack, counterattack. My supposedly god-mode defiler went down repeatedly when focused with burst dps and debuffs (even with me self-healing, other defilers healing, WL heals)--just like a freep healing class, and utterly unlike the previously broken Captains. I could not be suddenly and easily taken down by one burg, just like most freep healers can't be suddenly and easily be taken down by one warg in an RvR with cross-healing. Freeps had to blow cooldowns and use debuffs and think through what they did. So did we. If we had 18 and they had 24, we lost. If they had 18 and we had 24, they lost. Rank mattered on a target in terms of difficulty taking it down. It wasn't faceroll for either side. Numbers had to be close to equal, tactics became very important. Outposts really mattered in the fight, so secondary battles between various groups broke out to claim those. If somebody managed to get the upper hand there during the fight, the fight usually turned in the direction of who had the outposts--so it required communication all across the Moors on both sides, a little cooperation--not just one raid vs. one raid and everyone else left out.

    It was war. We did this for couple of hours. It was among the most fun nights I've had in Moors. It's what I thought Moors would be when I started playing. The groups were not mirrored, but were generally equal--IF the raid leaders came up with good tactics and made good decisions in the fight. If not, we wiped, and tried again with different ideas and strategies.

    As somebody who played Defiler when they weren't cool and were very weak, it is nice to be able to go from point A to point B without knowing for certain I will die if I see a single freep. It makes me more willing to duo and small-group. I stay heal-traited because I don't 1v1, but if I came across a solo freep, I gave it a try alone, even though my dps was low (300ish per hit, up to 2k with a crit). Hunters, I usually won even with no self-heal, or only one big self-heal if hunter bubbled. A good burg could take me down with burst dps and bleeds (from, I assume, good weps, because the one who did and the one who almost did were higher rank, or equal rank to me). Low rank burgs had no chance against me--again, as it should be. Rank should mean something. An r2 burg who jumps an r11 defiler gets what they ask for, just like if my warg tried to jump a healing class 9 levels above me. Captain pretty even fight, half the time I won, half the time they did (with both of us healing). Guard, same. Didn't fight any healing classes, figured that would take a week if we both healed--ha. These were not scheduled 1v1, but encounters on landscape as we were both trying to get back to RvR fight.

    So, for once, I feel even. I feel like I can compete. I feel like I matter in a raid, because a couple of my debuffs can make a difference in a focus fire against a tough target, and my hots actually fire fast enough and tick high enough to save somebody getting moderately focused--at least for a few seconds (I don't tfh, a lot of my buddies don't, so we have to react when focus fire shifts--sometimes we make it, sometimes we don't). Also because I do matter, there are fewer WL's in the raid, so fewer in-combat rezzes, more balanced out with what freeps seem to have--so again, the fights were more even, and timing and strategy of rezzing mattered.

    After last night's experience, I'm pretty convinced if I meet a freep with Moors-level gear (full aud, second or first age weps, esp. first age), and they are equal or higher rank, I'm going to have a fight, and if they are better than me at thinking fast and using strategies, I'll get fried. Because, like them, I have full aud, all of my best skills, all the latest pots, and decent traits--but I'll probably fry more than most due to heal build rather than dps build, and a belief I should only self-heal and use pots if they do during the fight. If I meet lower rank but close, I'll have the upper hand, but still could get fried if they have good bursts and debuffs. If I meet a much lower rank, I'll run by because I know what it feels like to be weak and have no chance--unless they attack me first, then it's on and I'll flatten them.

    So again, I don't get it. I don't see how this is so horrible, this update. I don't know why people aren't giving it a few weeks for freeps to be geared, for leaders to come back out and start trying strategies, for everybody to realize it's an actual fight and not a zergfest now for either side. It's different. It feels even to me finally. I think it could work out very well, though admittedly I don't know how it'll affect the 1v1 scene, because I dislike the whole 1v1 thing as a rule and don't do it much. I'll have to let those players weigh in. Which I hope they will do, after they are Moors-geared, and have a chance to rethink tactics and strategies.

    I wish for once that instead of nerfing anything on a subsequent update, the developers would only fix what is obviously broken, like the damage done by npcs, the ease with which keeps can be taken and the fact friendly npcs mean nothing right now. Just do that, and fix clearly broken or not WAI skills. Give it some time, let the first-agers and gold recipes get out into the Moors, let people practice. Then rescale, if needed, but let rank and class keep mattering, let RvR still require thought and tactics. That's my hope.

    Thanks for reading.

  2. #2
    Well-written, +1.

  3. #3
    great post +1

  4. #4
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    If forums still had the option to give rep, you'd get it. +1
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  5. #5
    I like what you said and I appreciate the information/experiences that give weight to your perspective.
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  6. #6
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    CONGRATZ, you have resume my feelings

    bravo for your post

    +1 rep
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  7. #7
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  8. #8
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    Good

    Very much sums what many feel. Good writing with an insight into how this game is at best!
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  9. #9
    I have a similar story to the OPs

    My experience in the moors was that the fact that frees are getting killed is that they are not performing well in combat.

    I had a great time in the Moors last night. Our fraid was trying to break the camp on GV and we succeeded with an even number of frees as creeps. We lost on our first try, but except for running strait back out into the fight every time we died, we stayed back and made a plan like we used to. We won and it was a ton of fun. After we won the camp, we pressed on and blued a lot of the mbp before we finally broke up.

    This afternoon was a different story. The raid was very disorganized, not once did the leader or anyone else for that matter try to form a strategy, every time someone wiped they ran strait back out there, and not many people really played their class to the best of their abilities. Our burg would go out into the fray and deal some serious damage to one target, but did not get any support when he tried to retreat and died. Our hunters remained as permanent warg food. Even when my LM got an AoE stun or attack on them, the three wars were still able to kill our hunters and get out with hardly a scratch because nobody reacted! It is not needed to say that we hardly dented them.

    I am sure that the moors are not completely balanced, but they are not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be. Freeps really need to just relearn some strategies and use them to get them on par with the Freeps. Is that really to bad?
    Withywindle characters-Caesaran (warden), Dernudan (Lore master)
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dernudan View Post
    I am sure that the moors are not completely balanced, but they are not nearly as bad as people are making it out to be. Freeps really need to just relearn some strategies and use them to get them on par with the creeps. Is that really to bad?
    Apparently, when the status quo changes everyone panics. Too lazy to work hard for points, complaining easier, let's just hope for creep nerfs!!!!

  11. #11
    Some1 making sense !! even managed to read the wall of text with my goldfish memory and attention span!

    Creeps got a healer which is still not as good as mincer but in same league now - YES -when u heal something it may actually survive rather than just improve the ICMR :0
    Its got more survivability against burst dps coz of larger morale and more mitigations now (mincers had similar mitigations to creep heavies pre u13!) but mincer can flop every 30s ....

    Completely agree freeps gonna have to use tactics and their multitude of skills to fight RvR (amg , what is this , no more zerg AoE dps CC, everything fall down??) exactly like creeps have had to for the last 3 years or so since L75.........

    Ill be interesting to see which freeps actually play during their "hard times", i suspect much flipping, EM breaks and, gearing up alts hoping for a creep nerf first, or mb try eso..
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  12. #12
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  13. #13
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    If only all PvP players could read this.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

  14. #14
    Nice post Mia.

    Quote Originally Posted by MiaRavencloak View Post
    So, for once, I feel even. I feel like I can compete. I feel like I matter in a raid
    Same with my hunter. I like the changes. We have never been the 1v1 gods, but with U13 our dps actually can make a difference in a raid.

    I don't see how this is so horrible, this update. I don't know why people aren't giving it a few weeks for freeps to be geared, for leaders to come back out and start trying strategies, for everybody to realize it's an actual fight and not a zergfest now for either side. It's different. It feels even to me finally.
    I have the same feeling. Leaders are coming back, because there is a challenge.
    For me as a hunter pre U13 had
    a) the solo zergfest working against me (been farmed endlessly by the same warg, and in the rare instances where I was winning, he hipsed)
    b) the group zergfest working in my favor (nice for the comms and renown, but no real sense of achievement)

    though admittedly I don't know how it'll affect the 1v1 scene, because I dislike the whole 1v1 thing as a rule and don't do it much.
    Feel the same. Moors will never be balanced for 1v1. In fact, that would only be possible if all classes had similar abilities. But where would be the fun of playing a particular class.
    For that reason we will always have OP 1v1 classes on both sides.
    Whoever wants to choose such a class, is free to do so and may think (s)he is a great PvPer (probably is, because playing ones class well at 1v1 is very likely more challenging than playing your role well in a group)

    But IMO the real fun is PvP in groups, where each class has a different role.
    If group PvP is fairly balanced (it definitely was NOT before U13), that would be the most fun for me. Just my two cents.
    IMO U13 was a step in the right direction.
    Not quite sure, if Turbine overstepped. We will see, once freeps have adjusted and devised new tactics.

  15. #15
    Welcome to games.
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  16. #16
    +1 FINALLY someone with a brain...Im going to re-post this on my very very QQ server
    Krahjarngladiator r10 reaver Spidermaan r10 weaver Shadowsfear r8 warg Vaineatter r8 Warleader Voodoomagoo r7 defiler Vilearrow r6 ba
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  17. #17
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    I don't disagree with anything you said. However, what do you mean taking the time to gear up? Are you speaking strictly first ages? As to my knowledge, the only new gear is first ages and some new gold jewelry from big battles. Am I missing a new source for gear elsewhere?
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  18. #18
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    I don't think this is true at all, from reading what the hordes of rude PVPers on BW keep saying.

    The only thing needed for pvp, as far as I'm concerned, is an IP block so a gamer can't use glff for 20 minutes after being killed in the moors - and restricted chat access while in the moors. Oh and make gloating a bannable offense. And telling others they can't play should be bannable if a person wears one piece of aud gear to pve.

    You see, I'm fed up with the whine too. This DESPITE having run out of ignore list space. I agree that the pvp whine is the cancer that will make people leave. Us others.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by MiaRavencloak View Post
    If we had 18 and they had 24, we lost. If they had 18 and we had 24, they lost. Rank mattered on a target in terms of difficulty taking it down. It wasn't faceroll for either side. Numbers had to be close to equal, tactics became very important.
    On these 2 lines is the real meaning of your post..

    History has shown that most of the times (almost always) Creep numbers are much more than Freep numbers (freeps need to pay for acces) + Creeps have the extra advantage of mapping fast to the battlefields so it's hard to find battles with balanced numbers..

    P.S. By the time we are searching for total balance, how about if Freeps need to get free acces to enter on moors or maybe Creeps need to pay for VIP to enter on moors too?
    Last edited by jivius; Apr 24 2014 at 05:54 AM.
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  20. #20
    Yes, u got all freep classes glad for you.

    Now get out to moors, and try to make open raid. Dont be happy, cuz u can't say like u saying to ur triby, please get on ur defi/wl/rvr we need that class or other.
    Because ranking creeps is matter of 2-3 weeks till r7-r8 especially in tribe.
    To rank same freeps, well geared, with all virtues/armours/jewells - it will take half a year (unless u'll spend 500$ on him).

    So in average raid u'll get totally random ppls, bad or good geared. Maybe 2-3 heals OR maybe 10 heals and 2 dps instead. Or visa versa.


    So all that talk about creeps must be equal and so on - just trash talk.


    Unless, of course, you want fight against 1-2 kin on BW, which from time to time, form some kind of raid, mostly not full, pretty hard to get all 24 kinnies in same time, with all required classes. Yes, they'll be tough and good opponents. But what should other population out of that kin do ? Sit at GV ? Not many kins, like entropy of defiant, where 1 person has at least 3-5 full geared freeps, to play with in forming grp build.
    You don't have such freedom on freep side, as you got on creep side.

    Conclusion: freeps have to be slightly more OP then creeps. Population matters as well.

    P.S.: Based on my experience.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldio View Post
    Yes, u got all freep classes glad for you.

    Now get out to moors, and try to make open raid. Dont be happy, cuz u can't say like u saying to ur triby, please get on ur defi/wl/rvr we need that class or other.
    Because ranking creeps is matter of 2-3 weeks till r7-r8 especially in tribe.
    To rank same freeps, well geared, with all virtues/armours/jewells - it will take half a year (unless u'll spend 500$ on him).

    So in average raid u'll get totally random ppls, bad or good geared. Maybe 2-3 heals OR maybe 10 heals and 2 dps instead. Or visa versa.


    So all that talk about creeps must be equal and so on - just trash talk.


    Conclusion: freeps have to be slightly more OP then creeps. Population matters as well.

    P.S.: Based on my experience.
    2-3 weeks to rank 7-8? In which expansion?Maybe to rank 6 but... Cause after HD release, you cant rank that fast on creep. Before u13 - freeps werent dying, after u13 - there is no freeps.

    As for other things you say - creeps should not be equal - your best arguements are that Freeps need to be VIP and need several months (?!?!?) to gear and level? I can tell you this - 10 days from 0 to 95 and 10 days more to gear in kinship. And thats 10x more correct and accurate than your "2-3 weeks to rank 7-8 with creep". You still have r0-r5 creep chars in the moors that are easy-peasy meal for every freep, (except maybe defis now), if not, something else is in question.

    Second - all the high rank freeps of old times, and there is alot of them on every server (all those store trackers before u13), were and are Lifetimers. So 0$ per month for all the VIP benefits. Alot of creeps, on the other hand, are VIP players, not because of PvP, but 90% of the time cause of their Freep counterparts. And ofc, every creep player was at least once VIP, just like freep players, cause no one is silly to grind points for 12 corruptions+ 6 race + 6 class "trait" slots.
    I will go even that way - that some creeps (with some nice income i guess) even payed sub for their VAULT ACCOUNTS - chars where you only store trash for quests.


    Conclusion - yes, freeps need(ed) to be VIP in order to confront us in the moors (you can as easily gring 250 tp for 2hours and play 6 hours in the moors, with TP farm or with reputation only, so.. *cough*), but big amount of those same freeps you see every day are Lifetimer accounts.
    +Alot of ppl are paying for sub not because of freep side of the Moors, but because of PvE and they are creep players. So all that you just said is - "just trash talk".

    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldio View Post
    Unless, of course, you want fight against 1-2 kin on BW, which from time to time, form some kind of raid, mostly not full, pretty hard to get all 24 kinnies in same time, with all required classes. Yes, they'll be tough and good opponents. But what should other population out of that kin do ? Sit at GV ? Not many kins, like entropy of defiant, where 1 person has at least 3-5 full geared freeps, to play with in forming grp build.
    You don't have such freedom on freep side, as you got on creep side.
    You are forgeting that tribes doesnt have even close numbers of players that kinships do. That there is like 1000 persons all the time on global channel of freeps where raid leader can recruit everything he needs, but the creeps have only those whose are online atm, so you really need to relog to something usefull to your group. I dont see the problem of ppl logging chars that are needed, if that is the case, well, they deserve to loose.
    Also, most of the kins have much better rellationship and coordination between their players than tribes do. Cause if tribe is big - then you prolly dont even know who are the others in the tribe except 5-6 ppl. If its small - well, "its small"
    There is very few tribes on every server that have that spirit of belonging in it. I know only 1 on my server, that is big and ppl are really very tight connected.

    Quote Originally Posted by jivius View Post
    On these 2 lines is the real meaning of your post..
    History has shown that most of the times (almost always) Creep numbers are much more than Freep numbers (freeps need to pay for acces) + Creeps have the extra advantage of mapping fast to the battlefields so it's hard to find battles with balanced numbers..
    P.S. By the time we are searching for total balance, how about if Freeps need to get free acces to enter on moors or maybe Creeps need to pay for VIP to enter on moors too?
    Yes, creeps can get back in the fight quickly, just by maping - but freeps can get away from zerg-death just by running away on their horses? Second - raid leader of freeps need to set up the battle where creeps cant get back that fast, but maybe freeps can, thats all the things one raid leader should do, not just click "convert to raid" and yell "kill this, rez this".

    P.S. Hello Haras, nice to cya here m8. /wave to former Eldar player

    Last thing - Now that we have more balanced pvp or not so favourable fights for freep side, i think the WL 1min AoE rezz needs to be bigger, or that freeps should get something similar (not OutOfCombat aoe rez, that doesnt count).


    P.P.S. so long post, i cant even bother to read again what i wrote, feel free to highlight anything you think is wrong.
    Last edited by BrekkaSrbenda; Apr 24 2014 at 07:38 AM.
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    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post
    2-3 weeks to rank 7-8? In which expansion?Maybe to rank 6 but... Cause after HD release, you cant rank that fast on creep. Before u13 - freeps werent dying, after u13 - there is no freeps.
    My defiler (before u13, btw), got r0-6 in one day. You were saying?
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  23. #23
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    Yes, it's pretty frustrating when you're incapable as a class of performing your main role isn't it?
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  24. #24
    2-3 weeks to rank 7-8? In which expansion?Maybe to rank 6 but... Cause after HD release, you cant rank that fast on creep. Before u13 - freeps werent dying, after u13 - there is no freeps.
    In u12, now it is EVEN faster. I personally know about 3-4 guys, who did it to r10 within month and half. In u12 there were tons of raid, we were getting tons of kills. Not sure where u were playing and how that you couldn't kill anything.
    P.S.: Im talking about Brandywine and its action.

    I can tell you this - 10 days from 0 to 95 and 10 days more to gear in kinship.
    First one is correct. I did it it in 5 days. Spent about 100$ to keep 200% xp boost.
    It all depends on kinship. Even mine one, is pretty big, doesn't have at all times all professions, and all required large symbols and guild reps. I'm not even talking about you need tons of gold to buy emerald shards and other stuff. Add to this 7 days CD on each symbol, on each piece of jewel/armour. I'm still trying to equip my 3 toons, and i just dont have opportunity to help kinnies to gear up, because everything is on CD everyday.
    And lvl 95 and 2nd age gear - is not all. Virtues - every single of it to r19. Over 100k mobs to kills, places to visit. Even if u'll rank up 1 virtues per day, 6*19 count how many days it will be. To get ur LIs at max rank, with needed legacies - you'll have to farm instances, lots of em, to get LI titles, empowerment scrolls and other stuff.

    And thats 10x more correct and accurate than your "2-3 weeks to rank 7-8 with creep".
    Just look above.

    Second - all the high rank freeps of old times, and there is alot of them on every server (all those store trackers before u13), were and are Lifetimers. So 0$ per month for all the VIP benefits. Alot of creeps, on the other hand, are VIP players, not because of PvP, but 90% of the time cause of their Freep counterparts. And ofc, every creep player was at least once VIP, just like freep players, cause no one is silly to grind points for 12 corruptions+ 6 race + 6 class "trait" slots.
    I will go even that way - that some creeps (with some nice income i guess) even payed sub for their VAULT ACCOUNTS - chars where you only store trash for quests.
    Have no idea why u talking about VIP and stuff ^.^. Prolly just to say something...


    Conclusion - yes, freeps need(ed) to be VIP in order to confront us in the moors (you can as easily gring 250 tp for 2hours and play 6 hours in the moors, with TP farm or with reputation only, so.. *cough*), but big amount of those same freeps you see every day are Lifetimer accounts.
    +Alot of ppl are paying for sub not because of freep side of the Moors, but because of PvE and they are creep players. So all that you just said is - "just trash talk".
    Some as above. Just row of useless words.

    You are forgeting that tribes doesnt have even close numbers of players that kinships do. That there is like 1000 persons all the time on global channel of freeps where raid leader can recruit everything he needs, but the creeps have only those whose are online atm, so you really need to relog to something usefull to your group. I dont see the problem of ppl logging chars that are needed, if that is the case, well, they deserve to loose.
    Also, most of the kins have much better rellationship and coordination between their players than tribes do. Cause if tribe is big - then you prolly dont even know who are the others in the tribe except 5-6 ppl. If its small - well, "its small"
    There is very few tribes on every server that have that spirit of belonging in it. I know only 1 on my server, that is big and ppl are really very tight connected.
    You must be kidding right ? Kinships have more numbers - true, do they all go PvMP - NO. Dude really, your arguments are so damn stupid & silly.
    BW is most populated server. In prime time about 300-400 in glff. Other time - 100-180. Fact. Period.
    I don't know what kind of person you are, in what tribe you are. In my tribe - I know every single person. In prime time we have more then 20+ creeps online. 90% of them have every single alt class. And 80% of them are r8+.
    Sometimes we dont even need to recruit ppl from OOC. We are just doing fine with out tribe raid. I can fill up raid with any classes I need with no probs. When there are not that many ON, there are enough ranked ppl in ooc still.
    And I know 2 more tribes on our server, who have just the same situation. And those 3 tribies are like 80% of population of brandywine creeps. I could say roughly say - 4 tribies = all creeps of BW. SO think again, how hard it will be to form something with required setup within minutes ?
    THAT DOESNT WORK WITH FREEPS. Thousands of kins, small, and average ones. Try to do something about it.

    So everything you said doesn't make any sense.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldio View Post
    Conclusion: freeps have to be slightly more OP then creeps. Population matters as well.
    Seriously?

    Population does matter. I'm not sure about your server, but on mine, there is at least some of the Creep population, at any given time during a raid, that are greenies. Low ranks, sometimes an alt-character, and other times a brand new player. I'm not sure if you noticed, but greenies, and new-to-the-game greenies, are, in general, cannon fodder. It's tough being a low rank creep out in the Moors these days.

    Heck, I can remember times when, on Creepside, a raid that I was in was vastly outnumbered by the Freep raid. Despite this, we still pushed them all the way from OC to EC without really any losses. Numbers can always be countered with good strategy.

    I am of the opinion that the rest of the population differences stem from the vile flippers; the ezmoders who just want to fight for whichever side will give them the most points. I think if something were done to address this, it would really help for "balance" in the Moors.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

 

 
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