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  1. #1

    Question Tactics vs 2 defis, w/o expanding 6man to raid? IMO - small nerf for defis is must

    1) Nerf has to be done to healing over time (slightly should be reduced amount of hps) + return inductions for HoTs, the big heal can stay as it is

    2) Had a group. 2 minis, 2 hunts, 1 LM, 1 cappy (with oathies used on defis) all r9+ full audacity.
    Fight was at HH with loads of mobs on creeps. So 2 defis r9+, 2 weavers r8, 2 wargs r6-r9. They were ungrouped, just were healing through us. As LM i was constantly mezzing/interrupting defis when it was possible.
    Fight lasted for about 20-30mins. Were going for different targets (of course at 1st - tried to go for defis). Eventually killed all weavers and wargs (they didnt get heals from defis no idea why) - in 10 mins or so.
    Other 15-20 minutes we were killing 2 defis, using oathies, interrupts all arsenal we had. Got each of them couple times to 10% morale, after which they got full healthed with big heals + too big HoTs.
    Hunters were killed like 2-3 times during this fight then rezzed back.
    We succeeded to kill defis only when another warden came with his 4-5k bleeds.

    Other fight was at TR, with about same 2 defis, but reavers and wargs instead of weavers. Which means they had way more DPS. We wiped this time.

    So, how to beat their 2 defis + 2-3 dps ? any ideas ? Preferably w/o expanding.
    If i replaced 1 mini with another DPS - we would wipe way faster, and I doubt we still could burn them fast enough.

    Expanding and getting 1-3 more DPS ? Yeah - that can work. But you should expect creeps will grp up in this situation - which will make things even worse. I'd expand even more - they do the same, i'd expand - they do the same and so on.
    If they'll form a 12man with 4 defis, 2 WLs - im pretty sure, i'm screwed with any build of my 12 freeps, cuz if i stack DPS - we'll die fast. If i stack heals - we'll die again, cuz not enough DPS.


    So, what tactics you'd suggest ppl ? Besides nerfing defis. Preferably - post your REAL Experience in such fights after u13.

  2. #2
    So to boil down your whine, I see you had a group of 4 healers (2 mini, lm, and cappy) and you couldn't punch through and roll 9 creeps like you did last week and the preceding year? I would suggest that maybe your easy mode button is on hiatus.

    Dainbrammaged r12 Defiler

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teldra View Post
    So to boil down your whine, I see you had a group of 4 healers (2 mini, lm, and cappy) and you couldn't punch through and roll 9 creeps like you did last week and the preceding year? I would suggest that maybe your easy mode button is on hiatus.

    Dainbrammaged r12 Defiler
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  4. #4
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    So more or less, it sounds like you won a 6v6 and lost a 6v6 (give or take). But your expectation is to win every time so creeps need a nerf? Am I missing something? It also sounds like you're response to creeps getting more heals was to bring more of your own healers. Healers don't kill healers. Healers kill the moors.
    Wetwillies for everyone!!!

  5. #5
    Well, on the creep side we were having this problem for a long time. Freeps stack heal, freep DPS was/is epic enough as creeps used to have much too little heal on their side. Now, you can have the same problem on the freep side - A decent 2-man freep group of cappy + mini can very easily run from tir to GV while out-healing 10-20 creeps, very frustrating for the creeps, but there you go. Yes, a decent group of creeps should be able to bring them down eventually. Or a freep group cappy+warden, hard to break through their heals even for 6+ creeps (again, if they know what they are doing). Now WL+defi or two defi should be able to give you the same grief that the other side is experiencing for many months... so what did the creeps do against a decent freep raid with a high number of healers? - Stack more people (mostly impossible theses days...), get another group to help you, log out and wait till the raid disbands, play another game... there is no magic formular to solve this problem, IMHO.

  6. #6
    incoming healing debuffs...use them

    a defiler can parse 5.5k hps on a target...fighting 2 youd have to potentially parse 11k+ dps on a target just to kill it without inc healing debuffs...with some coordination you should be able to burst a target down (redline cappy can have 2 inc healing debuffs) o and having a warden instead of 2 hunters pretty helpful too :P

    this isnt a new tactic for creepside thats for sure...long have they had to use blight+flayer warg just to take down a single target against a fraid, now its your turn to use the same


    although ill have to agree that the more healers out here the worse...healstacked groups/raids suck

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Teldra View Post
    So to boil down your whine, I see you had a group of 4 healers (2 mini, lm, and cappy) and you couldn't punch through and roll 9 creeps like you did last week and the preceding year? I would suggest that maybe your easy mode button is on hiatus.

    Dainbrammaged r12 Defiler
    Oh yeah.. U r just another offended dumass creep.

    Reread what i've written.
    I WASNT whining, or crying. I was asking for advice. And you guys below - are too stupid as well to understand and read carefully what i've written. Turn the brains ON.

    1) Cappy was DPSing. 2 minis were healing. LM was CCing/DPS, w/o using heals. So my grp was 3 DPS, 2 heals + 1 support healer/dpser.
    Creeps were ungrped. That means i must be able to destroy 6v6 grped vs ungrped. And especially i must have opportunity to destroy 2 defilers LESS then 10 minutes straight.

    But your expectation is to win every time so creeps need a nerf? Am I missing something?
    See above. My expectation to win in OBVIOUS situation. Like the one described above.


    Well, on the creep side we were having this problem for a long time. Freeps stack heal, freep DPS was/is epic enough as creeps used to have much too little heal on their side. Now, you can have the same problem on the freep side
    We ??? I was playing creep before this update. Im kinda one of them too. I always choose to play loosing side.
    Moreover i was leading both fraids/craids (mostly last ones).

    It WASNT huge problem to destroy freeps heal stacked raid. Done it millions of times.
    But at the moment - it is not possible to destroy creeps health stacked raid.


    And as i said - u r just offended ones. When u were crying here and there i was fighting raids/grps.

    So please, if u don't have experience in leading FRAID in u13 - just stay off this topic. Try it out - and then lets see how smart u r actually.

  8. #8
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    Yes, a co-ordinated group of six freeps should have been able to beat an ungrouped group of creeps especially if they were fighting in friendly NPCs. If the cappy was using oathies that means he was using red line, leaving presumably two healers left to cover the group. This seems reasonable considering the armour debuff the defilers were (presumably) using to remove mitigations.

    @all the creeps saying things along the lines of 'now you know how it feels' - this is not balance. The ONLY way a group of freeps can stay alive is if they stack heals and you all know that!

    Shumzuda R11 Blackarrow - Shumheals R6 Defiler - Shumzud R6 Warg Beardhug R9 Champion - Majeika R8 LM - Chuffnel Burglar
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldio View Post
    We ??? I was playing creep before this update. Im kinda one of them too. I always choose to play loosing side.
    Moreover i was leading both fraids/craids (mostly last ones).

    It WASNT huge problem to destroy freeps heal stacked raid. Done it millions of times.
    But at the moment - it is not possible to destroy creeps health stacked raid.


    And as i said - u r just offended ones. When u were crying here and there i was fighting raids/grps.

    So please, if u don't have experience in leading FRAID in u13 - just stay off this topic. Try it out - and then lets see how smart u r actually.
    Massive change in tone here - I don't think you will get far with this attitude.

  10. #10
    the guy was legitimately asking for advice. The knucklehead peanut gallery will always chime in when the word "nerf" comes into play, but I don't think it was the OP that started with that ignoramus tone. and although he asked for a small nerf for defilers (which is what most of the hate is coming from i would assume), this post isn't pointless, and has received valuable information. Namely, to make freeps actually look at avenues available to defeat defilers. The two that come to mind for me are:

    1. wardens
    2. -incoming healing debuffs (goes along with having wardens).
    3. massive dps burst from target switching. Freeps can still burn a target down quite quickly, and will have to get very good at switching to a non-HoT targets and using the right skills with coordination and possibly throwing cc on healers at the same time.
    My question is (and i know this is a bit of a derail but still in connection to the thread) how do -incoming healing debuffs stack? Does the highest debuff stick and others get wiped? Does the most recently applied remove all previous ones? do they stack multiplicitavely?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    the guy was legitimately asking for advice. The knucklehead peanut gallery will always chime in when the word "nerf" comes into play, but I don't think it was the OP that started with that ignoramus tone. and although he asked for a small nerf for defilers (which is what most of the hate is coming from i would assume), this post isn't pointless, and has received valuable information. Namely, to make freeps actually look at avenues available to defeat defilers. The two that come to mind for me are:

    1. wardens
    2. -incoming healing debuffs (goes along with having wardens).
    3. massive dps burst from target switching. Freeps can still burn a target down quite quickly, and will have to get very good at switching to a non-HoT targets and using the right skills with coordination and possibly throwing cc on healers at the same time.
    My question is (and i know this is a bit of a derail but still in connection to the thread) how do -incoming healing debuffs stack? Does the highest debuff stick and others get wiped? Does the most recently applied remove all previous ones? do they stack multiplicitavely?
    why does he need to ask then if he is a pro raid leader and had no problem killing mini stacked freep raids? I guess he just can figure out this defiler thing. *boggle*

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by germcell View Post
    why does he need to ask then if he is a pro raid leader and had no problem killing mini stacked freep raids? I guess he just can figure out this defiler thing. *boggle*
    First, he never said he was a pro raid leader.
    Second, I'm completely flabbergasted at the players' mentality in this thread. This guy is trying to suck it up and figure out a way to win. He's not quitting, not switching to another game, he's trying to get better. Don't all of you, every single one, want the quality of pvp to improve? Are you happy with the 24/7 gv camp of freeps who don't know how to coordinate? Be careful, you're starting to sound like freeps *boggle*

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    First, he never said he was a pro raid leader.
    it was strongly implied.


    the GV camps are great, tons of infamy and payback for the months of grams camping. I could spend hours at GV, its so awesome, like clubbing baby seals.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by germcell View Post
    it was strongly implied.


    the GV camps are great, tons of infamy and payback for the months of grams camping. I could spend hours at GV, its so awesome, like clubbing baby seals.
    You know what assuming makes out of you and me...


    and I shouldn't be surprised you and players like you enjoy the gv camp. Glad someone's enjoying pvp....

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    First, he never said he was a pro raid leader.
    Second, I'm completely flabbergasted at the players' mentality in this thread. This guy is trying to suck it up and figure out a way to win. He's not quitting, not switching to another game, he's trying to get better. Don't all of you, every single one, want the quality of pvp to improve? Are you happy with the 24/7 gv camp of freeps who don't know how to coordinate? Be careful, you're starting to sound like freeps *boggle*
    Thanks mate. Can't say it better.

    had no problem killing mini stacked freep raids? I guess he just can figure out this defiler thing. *boggle*
    Because freeps != creeps. And defis != minis. Dude turn the brains ON, 2nd time reminding.
    I know all creeps classes and all skills, because I have them (and I know exactly how to destroy heal stacked fraid). From freeps i got only LM and Mini + raising up RK - and those ones can't help much in my case.
    That is why I'm asking.

    And I am not talking about TOTAL nerf of defilers, rather slight adjustments. Because MY experience has shown - they are bit too OP for random group build. You can't have in your group every desired class, ESPECIALLY, after this update. Freeps are just too scared to come out when they lost all their OPness.

    Yes, a co-ordinated group of six freeps should have been able to beat an ungrouped group of creeps especially if they were fighting in friendly NPCs. If the cappy was using oathies that means he was using red line, leaving presumably two healers left to cover the group. This seems reasonable considering the armour debuff the defilers were (presumably) using to remove mitigations.

    @all the creeps saying things along the lines of 'now you know how it feels' - this is not balance. The ONLY way a group of freeps can stay alive is if they stack heals and you all know that!
    Exactly mate.

    My question is (and i know this is a bit of a derail but still in connection to the thread) how do -incoming healing debuffs stack? Does the highest debuff stick and others get wiped? Does the most recently applied remove all previous ones? do they stack multiplicitavely?
    +1 to this question.

    So to sum up a bit, useful tips:
    1) Cappy in red line, has both: Oathies (+30% inc dmg) & Debuff for incoming healing (any info on % ?, do they stack ?)
    2) Warden inc healing debuf - what is % ? which line ? do they stack ?

    P.S.: Can assume, for 6v6 (assuming creep group has 2 defis), the next froup build will work: Warden, Cappy, (in lines mentioned above), Burg (burst DPS + tons of interrupts), 2 minis (or 1 healing RK instead of mini), 1 hunter.
    Last edited by Leopoldio; Apr 16 2014 at 01:02 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldio View Post
    Thanks mate. Can't say it better.


    Because freeps != creeps. And defis != minis. Dude turn the brains ON, 2nd time reminding.
    I know all creeps classes and all skills, because I have them (and I know exactly how to destroy heal stacked fraid). From freeps i got only LM and Mini + raising up RK - and those ones can't help much in my case.
    That is why I'm asking.

    And I am not talking about TOTAL nerf of defilers, rather slight adjustments. Because MY experience has shown - they are bit too OP for random group build. You can't have in your group every desired class, ESPECIALLY, after this update. Freeps are just too scared to come out when they lost all their OPness.


    Exactly mate.


    +1 to this question.

    So to sum up a bit, useful tips:
    1) Cappy in red line, has both: Oathies (+30% inc dmg) & Debuff for incoming healing (any info on % ?, do they stack ?)
    2) Warden inc healing debuf - what is % ? which line ? do they stack ?
    so you can destroy minis with ease but defilers need a nerf because you only have ever played LM and mini and don't know how to play freepside. I think I understand now, thanks mate. I take back the pro raid leader comment, I was way off on that.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by germcell View Post
    the GV camps are great, tons of infamy and payback for the months of grams camping. I could spend hours at GV, its so awesome, ...
    Quote Originally Posted by germcell View Post
    So thank you Turbine for not tipping the scales too far and finding a good balance for the Ettenmoors, this is probably the most balanced it has ever been...
    Thanks and keep up the hard work!
    Some people simply have no idea what PvP should/can be...js
    "...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    Some people simply have no idea what PvP should/can be...js
    some people have no sense of sarcasm either.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by germcell View Post
    so you can destroy minis with ease but defilers need a nerf because you only have ever played LM and mini and don't know how to play freepside. I think I understand now, thanks mate. I take back the pro raid leader comment, I was way off on that.
    I didnt say with ease. Need slight nerf because everything I tried havent worked. And if you didn't mention - I said there are two options: slight nerf for defis OR some good tactic/group build to work that out, from ones, who succeeded in that. You haven't even succeeded to escape/fight from grams camp. How you can even discuss something if you don't know a thing?

    You are just blind cuz mad. Get over it. Non-constructive discussion with you.

    P.S.: Logging in time when there is grams camp - was my favourite, cuz I could break it and get way more infamy you can get now at GV steps. What can you ?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    the guy was legitimately asking for advice. The knucklehead peanut gallery will always chime in when the word "nerf" comes into play, but I don't think it was the OP that started with that ignoramus tone. and although he asked for a small nerf for defilers (which is what most of the hate is coming from i would assume), this post isn't pointless, and has received valuable information. Namely, to make freeps actually look at avenues available to defeat defilers. The two that come to mind for me are:

    1. wardens
    2. -incoming healing debuffs (goes along with having wardens).
    3. massive dps burst from target switching. Freeps can still burn a target down quite quickly, and will have to get very good at switching to a non-HoT targets and using the right skills with coordination and possibly throwing cc on healers at the same time.
    My question is (and i know this is a bit of a derail but still in connection to the thread) how do -incoming healing debuffs stack? Does the highest debuff stick and others get wiped? Does the most recently applied remove all previous ones? do they stack multiplicitavely?
    They stack additively, or at least did as recently as RoR as was seen with the Warden Debuffs.


    Even my Signature is trolling!

  21. #21
    the 2 captain incoming heal debuffs do not stack. grave wound is a -50% incoming healing for 5 seconds with a 15 second CD, which requires the captain to be red traited. And routing cry (requires 4 pieces of loyalty set), is a -35% incoming healing debuff, lasting 10 seconds with a 15 second CD. if the cappy is very careful, he can keep the target debuffed permanently, although it will require a bit of luck in a GvG or RvR as routing cry is an aoe, with no way to pcik which target it hits.
    Lugbur, R11 Reaver ./. Guthfred, R9 Captain ./. Guthblade, R9 Chamption ./. Muzluck, R9 Warg + Various other toons of different rank and class.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    They stack additively, or at least did as recently as RoR as was seen with the Warden Debuffs.
    that seems kinda crazy overpowered if you have a warden (-50%) and hunter (-50%), that would negate all but extra incoming healing from rank.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    that seems kinda crazy overpowered if you have a warden (-50%) and hunter (-50%), that would negate all but extra incoming healing from rank.
    They did, u used to be able to stack them to like -200% way back when but now a days wardens have 2 debuffs, 1 requires red line 1 requires 4 spearlord

    the red line debuff is the boars rush gambit line and it starts with -10% but it stacks to a -30% so the warden has to do 3 gambits to get it to -30% that lasts for 10 seconds but can be renewed to keep it permanently on something

    then u have the infamous spearlord set the one that used to make creeps damage eachother with heals.- Well not any more by using onslaught, Adroit maneuver, or wardens triumph- you can get a -12.5%-stacks to -25%-through 2 gambits however this now last 30 seconds instead of 12 so that definitely will come in handy
    [URL=http://s88.photobucket.com/user/csmoltz/media/sig-lotro2_zpsc635dbd5.jpg.html][IMG]http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k183/csmoltz/sig-lotro2_zpsc635dbd5.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Cryptic View Post
    They did, u used to be able to stack them to like -200% way back when but now a days wardens have 2 debuffs, 1 requires red line 1 requires 4 spearlord

    the red line debuff is the boars rush gambit line and it starts with -10% but it stacks to a -30% so the warden has to do 3 gambits to get it to -30% that lasts for 10 seconds but can be renewed to keep it permanently on something

    then u have the infamous spearlord set the one that used to make creeps damage eachother with heals.- Well not any more by using onslaught, Adroit maneuver, or wardens triumph- you can get a -12.5%-stacks to -25%-through 2 gambits however this now last 30 seconds instead of 12 so that definitely will come in handy
    if it still works this way then....freeps have zero to complain about.

  25. #25
    The two minis should be switching off fears on one defiler while the LM deals with the other one (fear lasts 15 seconds with 30 second cd, so two minis can keep it up consistently). Might even set up a fear target assist so everyone knows not to damage that guy. Have DPS go after the other targets with grave wound use (wargs are still squishy targets). Minis can help the LM with the other defiler with piercing cry.

    Trick here is to make sure everyone in group knows not to use AoEs where they can hit feared defiler.
    Edited due to violations of the community guidelines.

 

 
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