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  1. #1

    Weaver's Toxic Carapace

    Well the Bullroarer post regarding weaver's TC appears to have been deleted, but i seem to recall some sort of non-definitive statement from Jinjaah regarding Weaver's Toxic Carapace now reflecting every dot that ticks on them, in addition to the normal upfront directed attacks at them.

    *Gasp, a warden with their OP DoTs is here to complain about a class with a counter to their silly dps levels*


    Yeah yeah yeah, hopefully people have had a chance to fight a competent weaver since the update. Their raw damage is quite formidable now (probably relatively better than in RoI/RoR), obviously they've been strong in the CC department since the RoI revamp and I think once the dust settles people will find Weaver's to be up near the top of the creep food chain again.

    Now, I'm not complaining at all about this, or even that Toxic Carapace reflects DoTs in general. What I'm asking for is that TC only reflect DoTs that have been applied after the skill is activated. As it is working right now, TC against DoT classes essentially means the weaver can just wait until DoTs have been applied, and then hit 1 button and win, there is no real counterplay involved for their opponent. How it was in the past where TC only reflected initial damage wasn't very good either, as it simply allowed the freep to continue applying DoTs with a low initial damage and continue killing the weaver relatively unmolested.

    I'm sure some would argue "dot use dots at all against the weaver then", etc, etc. which does have a bit of merit. But a number of classes have either basic skills to their class' functionality that apply DoTs, or have passives that apply DoTs regardless of how selective their skill use is, so they essentially have no way to avoid a weaver reflecting DoTs back on them, even if they are more selective in skills used against a weaver, and immediately stop all dps on the weaver when TC is activated.



    Oh yeah, and QQ about 75+% mitigations...
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  2. #2
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    I agree completely, however i question if it is even possible to differentiate from dots applied before the skill is used and after. I could be wrong though, i'm no programmer.

    75% + mits are ok, but i think perhaps creep morale pools be reduced to be more in line with freeps. Not exactly the same as freeps, but i don't think they quite need double or triple the amount of morale.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Well the Bullroarer post regarding weaver's TC appears to have been deleted, but i seem to recall some sort of non-definitive statement from Jinjaah regarding Weaver's Toxic Carapace now reflecting every dot that ticks on them, in addition to the normal upfront directed attacks at them.

    *Gasp, a warden with their OP DoTs is here to complain about a class with a counter to their silly dps levels*


    Yeah yeah yeah, hopefully people have had a chance to fight a competent weaver since the update. Their raw damage is quite formidable now (probably relatively better than in RoI/RoR), obviously they've been strong in the CC department since the RoI revamp and I think once the dust settles people will find Weaver's to be up near the top of the creep food chain again.

    Now, I'm not complaining at all about this, or even that Toxic Carapace reflects DoTs in general. What I'm asking for is that TC only reflect DoTs that have been applied after the skill is activated. As it is working right now, TC against DoT classes essentially means the weaver can just wait until DoTs have been applied, and then hit 1 button and win, there is no real counterplay involved for their opponent. How it was in the past where TC only reflected initial damage wasn't very good either, as it simply allowed the freep to continue applying DoTs with a low initial damage and continue killing the weaver relatively unmolested.

    I'm sure some would argue "dot use dots at all against the weaver then", etc, etc. which does have a bit of merit. But a number of classes have either basic skills to their class' functionality that apply DoTs, or have passives that apply DoTs regardless of how selective their skill use is, so they essentially have no way to avoid a weaver reflecting DoTs back on them, even if they are more selective in skills used against a weaver, and immediately stop all dps on the weaver when TC is activated.



    Oh yeah, and QQ about 75+% mitigations...
    just be glad some of us can hit those high mits it keeps you from 1-shooting yourself lol. while i think its kinda cheap that reflect will work on existing dots i kind of see it as a trade off since most freep dots can't be removed while most creep dots can be removed and even mass removed or all dots removed with a single skill. while spiders do seem to be better off now that there's some finesse i really want to reserve judgement for when theres normal freeps and a competent raid leader out instead of comparing creeps doing to the greendot freeps what the freeps have been doing to creeps for months now . I know pretty much a solo person but since turbine decided to make this a zerg vs zerg slideshow game the changes should be adjusted for that

  4. #4
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    I was actually under the assumption that TC was already reflecting dots only after application. I(or someone else) will have to test to verify.

    Anyone know if this has been tested post U13?(AKA not bullroarer)

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  5. #5
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    I really think it's working as intended, and for reasons others have posted already.

    And Yicky, get back on E and play test it yourself.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    I was actually under the assumption that TC was already reflecting dots only after application. I(or someone else) will have to test to verify.

    Anyone know if this has been tested post U13?(AKA not bullroarer)
    all dots are reflected no matter when they are applied or when your reflect is used. dots were never affected by any reflects prior to U13

    all reflects just seem so broken now
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by thisisanewname View Post
    just be glad some of us can hit those high mits it keeps you from 1-shooting yourself lol. while i think its kinda cheap that reflect will work on existing dots i kind of see it as a trade off since most freep dots can't be removed while most creep dots can be removed and even mass removed or all dots removed with a single skill. while spiders do seem to be better off now that there's some finesse i really want to reserve judgement for when theres normal freeps and a competent raid leader out instead of comparing creeps doing to the greendot freeps what the freeps have been doing to creeps for months now . I know pretty much a solo person but since turbine decided to make this a zerg vs zerg slideshow game the changes should be adjusted for that
    While certainly its more prevalent on creep dots than freep ones, weavers are really the only creep class who has a majority of their DoTs being pottable. I would absolutely support turbine making most or even all non-class-mechanic based dots be pottable on either side (So warden/lm/rk dots should all be pottable, but Guardian dots not, for ex) as well as a nerf to the en mass effect clearing abilities some freeps have, and a couple creep classes being given some utility to remove their own, or their fellows pottable effects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Delmore View Post
    I was actually under the assumption that TC was already reflecting dots only after application. I(or someone else) will have to test to verify.

    Anyone know if this has been tested post U13?(AKA not bullroarer)
    I have tested it on live, which is why I made the post.
    Quote Originally Posted by draconis-halberd7 View Post
    I really think it's working as intended, and for reasons others have posted already.

    And Yicky, get back on E and play test it yourself.
    What reasons others have given do you think this? The only other commentary I saw on this was in the BR forum and the thread appears to have gone missing, but i didn't see anything really compelling the last I saw it.
    Quote Originally Posted by mattg18 View Post
    all dots are reflected no matter when they are applied or when your reflect is used. dots were never affected by any reflects prior to U13

    all reflects just seem so broken now
    What else are you referring to, BoF? Perhaps a fire RK is more adversely affected by that than warden, but I highly doubt it, and I really don't mind how BoF works now.
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  8. #8
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    I'll simply leave all weavers be for now.

    Nicely balanced I win button right there.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    What else are you referring to, BoF? Perhaps a fire RK is more adversely affected by that than warden, but I highly doubt it, and I really don't mind how BoF works now.
    any reflect really....i just dont see the point in dots triggering them...not just weaver reflect or BoF, captain noble mark is definitely a lot stronger with their dots triggering the 1% morale heal for example....theres plenty of reflects in the game
    I just liked the fact that dots seemed like a good counter to reflects, now i try not to use them anymore it may cause more harm than good.
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  10. #10
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    I personally think reflect is a horrible mechanic that should be no where near a PvP environment.

    Then again, that's just me. (And not just TC, all reflects.)
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  11. #11
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    An even better reason not to use TC in 1v1's

  12. #12
    I will consider using it only when i get zerged. In raid vs raid fights and esspecially in 1vs1, im not gonna use them ever. My spider is too strong even without it.
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  13. #13
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    Ok that is enough confirmation for me

    as far as reflecting dots...it was intended. The question is what it intended to reflect all dots regardless or just dots post reflect. Depends on IF the mechanic can even do a check on when damage was applied as the skill only checks damage during the reflect.

    I will say that with dots being reflected now, there will probably need to be some CD adjustments. The idea behind it...don't go bleed happy and rely on them for your kill.

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Well the Bullroarer post regarding weaver's TC appears to have been deleted, but i seem to recall some sort of non-definitive statement from Jinjaah regarding Weaver's Toxic Carapace now reflecting every dot that ticks on them, in addition to the normal upfront directed attacks at them.

    *Gasp, a warden with their OP DoTs is here to complain about a class with a counter to their silly dps levels*


    Yeah yeah yeah, hopefully people have had a chance to fight a competent weaver since the update. Their raw damage is quite formidable now (probably relatively better than in RoI/RoR), obviously they've been strong in the CC department since the RoI revamp and I think once the dust settles people will find Weaver's to be up near the top of the creep food chain again.

    Now, I'm not complaining at all about this, or even that Toxic Carapace reflects DoTs in general. What I'm asking for is that TC only reflect DoTs that have been applied after the skill is activated. As it is working right now, TC against DoT classes essentially means the weaver can just wait until DoTs have been applied, and then hit 1 button and win, there is no real counterplay involved for their opponent. How it was in the past where TC only reflected initial damage wasn't very good either, as it simply allowed the freep to continue applying DoTs with a low initial damage and continue killing the weaver relatively unmolested.

    I'm sure some would argue "dot use dots at all against the weaver then", etc, etc. which does have a bit of merit. But a number of classes have either basic skills to their class' functionality that apply DoTs, or have passives that apply DoTs regardless of how selective their skill use is, so they essentially have no way to avoid a weaver reflecting DoTs back on them, even if they are more selective in skills used against a weaver, and immediately stop all dps on the weaver when TC is activated.



    Oh yeah, and QQ about 75+% mitigations...
    Agreed.

    Also, damage-wise we haven't been this potent since Mirkwood.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Agreed.

    Also, damage-wise we haven't been this potent since Mirkwood.
    yeah last time I stack bleeds on a rank 1 spider I went boom

    on a more serious note spiders own bleeds do a decent amount of damage now and that is with being mit stacked. between that and getting bled up then hitting one button true the weaver wins easily or dkb's however my bleeds aren't one button D: but a variety of buttons
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Well the Bullroarer post regarding weaver's TC appears to have been deleted, but i seem to recall some sort of non-definitive statement from Jinjaah regarding Weaver's Toxic Carapace now reflecting every dot that ticks on them, in addition to the normal upfront directed attacks at them.

    *Gasp, a warden with their OP DoTs is here to complain about a class with a counter to their silly dps levels*


    Yeah yeah yeah, hopefully people have had a chance to fight a competent weaver since the update. Their raw damage is quite formidable now (probably relatively better than in RoI/RoR), obviously they've been strong in the CC department since the RoI revamp and I think once the dust settles people will find Weaver's to be up near the top of the creep food chain again.

    Now, I'm not complaining at all about this, or even that Toxic Carapace reflects DoTs in general. What I'm asking for is that TC only reflect DoTs that have been applied after the skill is activated. As it is working right now, TC against DoT classes essentially means the weaver can just wait until DoTs have been applied, and then hit 1 button and win, there is no real counterplay involved for their opponent. How it was in the past where TC only reflected initial damage wasn't very good either, as it simply allowed the freep to continue applying DoTs with a low initial damage and continue killing the weaver relatively unmolested.

    I'm sure some would argue "dot use dots at all against the weaver then", etc, etc. which does have a bit of merit. But a number of classes have either basic skills to their class' functionality that apply DoTs, or have passives that apply DoTs regardless of how selective their skill use is, so they essentially have no way to avoid a weaver reflecting DoTs back on them, even if they are more selective in skills used against a weaver, and immediately stop all dps on the weaver when TC is activated.



    Oh yeah, and QQ about 75+% mitigations...
    Is this a petition?
    Cause, if it is, then SIGNED.
    Very good points, i even hate my dps. Tics for 2k on a freep with 15-20k morale. Wooof. Too much.

    ---------But i think it would be ok if we could have 1 extremly good dot like Virulent, for 2k, and others not so much, but still ok.
    And remove this horrible reflect all dots even those you already had on you. Thats..............
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  17. #17
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    Just some gameplay commentary.


    13 fights yesterday, all store bought R3-R6. Won most of them because of Warrior's Heart. The caveat being that Toxic carapace took me from 22k to 6k in the 15s duration. Combat analysis was showing very little damage outside of TC reflect, which was self inflicted. Low rank spiders can pretty much insta-win a fight against 50% of the freep classes, with the high rank spiders having to heavily self nerf.

    I can manage TC reflecting my T10 DoTs, the problem then becomes the combination of Catch Prey, Full heal Burrow, Drink Deep crits, hatchling heal, and defeat response heal. Of all the classes I think Guardian's are best suited to take on Weaver's in their current state, especially with Ignore the Pain spam removal.

    Having fought a R11 Weaver and a R14 Weaver last night I felt pretty overwhelmed. Piercing Attack is hitting me non crit for 1.2-1.4k, on a low CD. Assuming that Web the Earth is on cooldown and I am in melee range that is the majority of a weavers damage against me.
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  18. #18
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    Old thread is old, just thought I'd whack a post in here mentioning that achieving over 90% Phys and Tact mits is possible if you stack buffs and trait right, so 75% is very easily achievable (can get that with 3 phys 3 tact mit traits, solo, without store buffs and various other things) This is obviously including the 20% bugged carapace skill that should be 10% but will never ever get fixed

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Old thread is old, just thought I'd whack a post in here mentioning that achieving over 90% Phys and Tact mits is possible if you stack buffs and trait right, so 75% is very easily achievable (can get that with 3 phys 3 tact mit traits, solo, without store buffs and various other things) This is obviously including the 20% bugged carapace skill that should be 10% but will never ever get fixed
    where does this 90%+ number keep coming from? i have seen it from several people does everyone think its mirkwood still? the cap is about 50% phy 55% tac for spiders with tac mit scrolls seeming to go over the cap to push it to 60. born of shadows will go over that cap to hit 70 phy /80 tact but thats with all 6 phy/tact mit traits (though 4 will hit base mitcap for common damage) i could find no other buff that has any effect at all on my spider mits. though if your really worried about reflect its not the spiders that trait like tanks u need to worry about it the ones who build as a glass cannon with no mits whose reflect does real damage lol


  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by thisisanewname View Post
    where does this 90%+ number keep coming from? i have seen it from several people does everyone think its mirkwood still? the cap is about 50% phy 55% tac for spiders with tac mit scrolls seeming to go over the cap to push it to 60. born of shadows will go over that cap to hit 70 phy /80 tact but thats with all 6 phy/tact mit traits (though 4 will hit base mitcap for common damage) i could find no other buff that has any effect at all on my spider mits. though if your really worried about reflect its not the spiders that trait like tanks u need to worry about it the ones who build as a glass cannon with no mits whose reflect does real damage lol

    No disrespect meant here to weavers, but 60% to 80% tactical mits against a class that has more than 2 to 3 times my morale, excellent CC, good survival skills and TC seems a bit over the top.


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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yicky View Post
    Ok that is enough confirmation for me

    as far as reflecting dots...it was intended. The question is what it intended to reflect all dots regardless or just dots post reflect. Depends on IF the mechanic can even do a check on when damage was applied as the skill only checks damage during the reflect.

    I will say that with dots being reflected now, there will probably need to be some CD adjustments. The idea behind it...don't go bleed happy and rely on them for your kill.
    Although, just because it was intended, doesn't make it sensible.

    I'm still trying to figure out the justification for TC still being part of the weavers skillset.
    Is this skill not simply a direct inverse of the old defiant challenge? The skill itself was a horrible long term fix to a relatively short term problem.

    Considering the weaver's basically a master of all but one trade at the moment (Spike damage), I'm really surprised nobody is talking about it being removed/destroyed just like DC was.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nouri View Post
    No disrespect meant here to weavers, but 60% to 80% tactical mits against a class that has more than 2 to 3 times my morale, excellent CC, good survival skills and TC seems a bit over the top.
    to get that 60-80% though gives up allot of morale (about 20k or so),makes the reflect almost worthless since the more mits the spider has the lower the reflect, and gives up allot of mastery to do so.survival skills are mostly due to higher mits unless they are fighting in npcs then they have a ton of survivability.

    I am probably biased a bit but i wouldn't say spiders have excellent cc. cc resist rates are way to high (more than 50% are resisted) when it does land it breaks real fast since our damage is dot based and mez ,root don't work the same for spiders as freeps.even if the dot was on before the cc each tick can break it while freep roots/mez seem to need new damage and ignore old dots (at least they used to its been a while since i tested that out). the latent stun actually has 2 chances to resist and since it has a delay and its potable u can remove the stun before it happens. the fear which is the closest thing to an interrupt a spider has(spiders/defilers only 2 classes in the game without an interrupt skill btw)and has a resist rate of upwards of 75% vs freeps. so while yes theres a lot of potential cc on high ranked or ptw spiders on paper(not as much as say a lm,burg,lightning rk or yellow hunter even champs,guards and wardens SEEM to be able to stun more than i can) the game isn't played on paper and when u combine all the anti cc capabilities of a freep + resists and it sure seemed to me like i had allot more cc when i played my freeps then i did on my spider but like i said i admit to probably being a bit biased since my freeps have not been touched for real in years.

    i do agree that tc is over the top if your not in a tank build (i only use it myself against zergs hoping the will either stop attacking and i can escape or kill themselves as they kill me) and it needs to be changed but all reflect and skills that work similar(effect is based on damage) to not proc on dots that were on before the skill was used. that would not only fix the problems of dot class killing themselves on tc but it would stop thing like the spam stun from armor of storm, and other effects like that that hurt spiders more than others just to make things fair since it wouldn't be right that only freep dots would be immune to reflect like effects

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisisanewname View Post
    to get that 60-80% though gives up allot of morale (about 20k or so),makes the reflect almost worthless since the more mits the spider has the lower the reflect, and gives up allot of mastery to do so.survival skills are mostly due to higher mits unless they are fighting in npcs then they have a ton of survivability.

    I am probably biased a bit but i wouldn't say spiders have excellent cc. cc resist rates are way to high (more than 50% are resisted) when it does land it breaks real fast since our damage is dot based and mez ,root don't work the same for spiders as freeps.even if the dot was on before the cc each tick can break it while freep roots/mez seem to need new damage and ignore old dots (at least they used to its been a while since i tested that out). the latent stun actually has 2 chances to resist and since it has a delay and its potable u can remove the stun before it happens. the fear which is the closest thing to an interrupt a spider has(spiders/defilers only 2 classes in the game without an interrupt skill btw)and has a resist rate of upwards of 75% vs freeps. so while yes theres a lot of potential cc on high ranked or ptw spiders on paper(not as much as say a lm,burg,lightning rk or yellow hunter even champs,guards and wardens SEEM to be able to stun more than i can) the game isn't played on paper and when u combine all the anti cc capabilities of a freep + resists and it sure seemed to me like i had allot more cc when i played my freeps then i did on my spider but like i said i admit to probably being a bit biased since my freeps have not been touched for real in years.

    i do agree that tc is over the top if your not in a tank build (i only use it myself against zergs hoping the will either stop attacking and i can escape or kill themselves as they kill me) and it needs to be changed but all reflect and skills that work similar(effect is based on damage) to not proc on dots that were on before the skill was used. that would not only fix the problems of dot class killing themselves on tc but it would stop thing like the spam stun from armor of storm, and other effects like that that hurt spiders more than others just to make things fair since it wouldn't be right that only freep dots would be immune to reflect like effects
    High mitigations actually helps TC go into full effect. It gives the weaver more time to live than if he just stacked morale, which is a noticeable thing considering that the strength of the weaver is in sustained combat.

    Spiders have the best means of CC utility. A 50% resist rate on CC effects cannot seriously be applied to every weaver. Neither one of 75% on the fear. Wardens can stun more than weavers can? What? Freeps have more anti-cc capabilities than creeps ability to give cc? What?
    It seems to me you might be confusing resist rates with diminishing rates. Creeps as a faction have more anti-CC mobility than freeps do. Weavers have the strongest CC capabilities in the moors also. The next in line is a yellow-traited burg (How many of those do you see running around?).

    Also, part of the idea of a large portion of CC is that you don't attack the person you're trying to immobilise. Everyone seems to have forgotten this over the updates where we've been given incentive to spam all buttons on one target.
    Doing that, or even not consciously thinking about how you use your CC right now will guarantee that you don't think your CC is that great.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    High mitigations actually helps TC go into full effect. It gives the weaver more time to live than if he just stacked morale, which is a noticeable thing considering that the strength of the weaver is in sustained combat.
    but the higher the mits the spider has the lower the damage of the reflect so while u might live .01 sec longer when zerged 20+v1 less damage will be reflected (the only time i use reflect is when i'm zerged or last update when i would run with minimal mits at grams camps to make freeps 1shot themselves)


    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Spiders have the best means of CC utility. A 50% resist rate on CC effects cannot seriously be applied to every weaver. Neither one of 75% on the fear. Wardens can stun more than weavers can? What? Freeps have more anti-cc capabilities than creeps ability to give cc? What?
    It seems to me you might be confusing resist rates with diminishing rates. Creeps as a faction have more anti-CC mobility than freeps do. Weavers have the strongest CC capabilities in the moors also. The next in line is a yellow-traited burg (How many of those do you see running around?).
    nope i'm 1000000% sure not confusing dr with resists cuz theres no way when i pop out of my burrow the freep already has capped dr so it won't stop them for even .00001 sec besides it says resist not immune. yes wardens actually can stun m ore than spiders. spiders have 2 latent and smothering webs and its been awhile since i played my warden but i seem to remember no cd on gambits and 2 gambits that can stun and u have ambush and since 3>2 that would give wardens more stuns add to that lower cds on gambits a warden can stun more than a spider. creeps have more anti cc ability with 2 classes reaver and wl having an anti cc skill while freeps have at least 4 classes and maybe a 5th (not sure if champs still have anti cc mode) but warden have an si gambit,burgs have ff,guards have turn the tables and lm have si so seems like more anti cc to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Also, part of the idea of a large portion of CC is that you don't attack the person you're trying to immobilise. Everyone seems to have forgotten this over the updates where we've been given incentive to spam all buttons on one target.
    Doing that, or even not consciously thinking about how you use your CC right now will guarantee that you don't think your CC is that great.
    [/QUOTE]
    For me i really only use cc to knock a freep off a mount or to try to keep them from sprinting away when they are loosing so theres a good chance when i need cc to keep a fleeing freep from getting they will have dots on them since the majority of my skills are dots(and in a normal 1v1 all my skills are dots since i only use 2-3 skills untill the freep starts spamming heals,cc or tries to run)

  25. #25
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Although, just because it was intended, doesn't make it sensible.

    I'm still trying to figure out the justification for TC still being part of the weavers skillset.
    Is this skill not simply a direct inverse of the old defiant challenge? The skill itself was a horrible long term fix to a relatively short term problem.

    Considering the weaver's basically a master of all but one trade at the moment (Spike damage), I'm really surprised nobody is talking about it being removed/destroyed just like DC was.
    TC was brought in to help create a dynamic strategy while fighting the class as opposed to a mindless drone attack on a class that was relatively mediocre. Granted the mitigation changes has made weavers more powerful. But the idea behind TC still hold merit. The idea was to make freeps pay attention to what they were doing. For the longest time it was simply mash skills...well now if you mash them...you take a lot of damage. This has been explained time and time again but people just don't want to accept that you have to watch what you are doing when fighting a weaver. If you don't hit them during the duration...and CC them or LOS them...no issues. If you choose to beat of them because you don't like TC...well you are just going to kill yourself

    Yicky(R13) Weaver - Now Brandywiner{LOTRO Player Council member}
    The Witch Kings Seventh Legion
    Bubblez - Defiler
    The Black Appendage of Sauron - Leader
    www.theblackappendage.com/monstermanual

 

 
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