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Thread: Defilers = OP

  1. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    True, my champ's page still states "damage".
    Rofl, makes me wonder if burg is still called a "debuffer" class.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  2. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I know that, but tell it to my server's globallff.
    I know that you do, i read. Just putting this clear on paper in case of scepticals reading this thread.

  3. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    How do we still have posts like this?
    I facepalmed a bit on fact that you had to highlight that. But i do understand why you did.

    LOTRO is for few years chaotic. Why? Well.. Everyone does everything.

    Best dps class before U13 was burglar. *not primary dps class*
    Before that - LMs, Wardens, even minstrels.

    Wardens were broken before U13, and thats why they were good on dps. Warden was the best tank for 2 expansions. They were even healers for 3mens (!!!!), sometimes even 6 mens (ffs).

    I know you love your class, but in lotro, for me - always the primary dps classes are champ and hunter. Period.
    Others can have bigger dps, but thats the problem of someone elses definition *coughTURBINEcough*, not mine.
    Chieftain Mreza, Kokosovo mleko Chieftain (Rank 12 weaver)
    Brekka Crixus of Eldar, Potomci Numenora, Evernight (Ex Lazareva vojska)

    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  4. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post
    I facepalmed a bit on fact that you had to highlight that. But i do understand why you did.

    LOTRO is for few years chaotic. Why? Well.. Everyone does everything.

    Best dps class before U13 was burglar. *not primary dps class*
    Before that - LMs, Wardens, even minstrels.

    Wardens were broken before U13, and thats why they were good on dps. Warden was the best tank for 2 expansions. They were even healers for 3mens (!!!!), sometimes even 6 mens (ffs).

    I know you love your class, but in lotro, for me - always the primary dps classes are champ and hunter. Period.
    Others can have bigger dps, but thats the problem of someone elses definition *coughTURBINEcough*, not mine.
    And perhaps I made an overly harsh or blunt reply. But one of the expressed intents of the HD class revamps was to make every class roughly equally viable (but still different) in filling the given spec their role is intended for. So every freep class with a healing line (Mini, RK, Cappy) is supposed to be able to main-heal a raid, every class with a CC line is supposed to be able to provide that function for a group/raid (LM, Burg, Hunt), every tank class able to maintank (Cappy, Guard, Ward, Champ). Since every class has at least 1 dps spec, in theory every class should be able to put up comparable dps numbers given a favorable situation for their particular classes mechanics. Obvously this isn't the case, and basically no archetypal function in the game is roughly equally handled by different classes, but that is the stated intent.
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    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manvett View Post
    Title says it all.

    The team failed to find a middle ground yet again, and made us insane healing/debuffing monsters. I can't fathom how the statistics numbers, skill mechanics and their impact on the enemy players aren't tested more, but this is ridiculous. From a marginal class who got no love for years you go into another extreme and make the class unbeatable with 0 inductions for gourds and debuffs, which basically makes us Hot based Dot machinegun. WL+defiler duo will be unbeatable, hell, WL's wouldn't even be necessary anymore if they didn't have the incombat rez and a bubble.

    I don't like it. It's too much of a jump, too big of an extreme. That is all.
    ^^Spot on.

    Something is wrong when a rank 12 freep has to run from a rank 1 defiler. Basically they so overpowered defiler that if a freep sees one they just run, and the defiler will get no action. No point in fighting them anymore unless its 5 vs 1.

    Have also seen good small group creep vs freep with kills back and forth ruined when 1 defiler shows up. Fight over, fun over, pvp over.

    This is why defilers should be mad about this change.

  6. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by douglasburns View Post
    This is why defilers should be mad about this change.
    Trust me, i am... and lot of defilers fellows had to go on that bad TESO game to grind level instead of just doing nothing with their class on LOTRO.

  7. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by douglasburns View Post
    ^^Spot on.
    Something is wrong when a rank 12 freep has to run from a rank 1 defiler. Basically they so overpowered defiler that if a freep sees one they just run, and the defiler will get no action. No point in fighting them anymore unless its 5 vs 1.
    Wardens in RoR, Captains in HD, Minstrels since forever, it seems. I was "fleeing" from no rank but audacious (max audacity) freeps for years now, and that wasnt a problem for me. Cause if a class has that much heals to counter only my dps, thats normal for me. No gain, no loss.
    *Good* minstrels even now cant be killed by few. (notice the first word in sentence).
    I dont aprove any OP buffing, and i really dont think defilers are problem.

    READ THIS IF YOU CANT READ OTHER THINGS:
    Problem is - freeps lost their maxed resistance, maxed mits, maxed mastery, they no longer can go with everything maxed to the moors. Give your mits for damage. Give your damage for mits. Balance those 2. Defilers are where they should be in the PvP as we know - in pair with Captain and Minstrel healing before U13. But the problem is - big(er) dps other creep classes have + low(er) dps freeps now have to counter big heals.

    ******Conclusion - creeps can counter freep heals now, but freeps cant outdps creep heals.******
    (If not stated otherwise, THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION).

    Quote Originally Posted by douglasburns View Post
    Have also seen good small group creep vs freep with kills back and forth ruined when 1 defiler shows up. Fight over, fun over, pvp over.
    This is why defilers should be mad about this change.
    Wanna bet that +1 defiler is player previous enjoying Warden and Captain for last 2 expansions?

    BRING BACK 1HR CD ON FLIPPING.
    Chieftain Mreza, Kokosovo mleko Chieftain (Rank 12 weaver)
    Brekka Crixus of Eldar, Potomci Numenora, Evernight (Ex Lazareva vojska)

    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post
    Wardens in RoR, Captains in HD, Minstrels since forever, it seems. I was "fleeing" from no rank but audacious (max audacity) freeps for years now, and that wasnt a problem for me. Cause if a class has that much heals to counter only my dps, thats normal for me. No gain, no loss.
    *Good* minstrels even now cant be killed by few. (notice the first word in sentence).
    I dont aprove any OP buffing, and i really dont think defilers are problem.
    Seriously? I'm absolutely terrible at my reaver and I can recall several times in the last 2-3 years of winning 1v# verses low ranked freeps. I was winning 1v1s verse low ranked freeps during RoI. In terms of low ranked players only thing I ever had issues with consistently were burgs and them running away.

    Defilers are where they should be in the PvP as we know ...
    LOL?

    ******Conclusion - creeps can counter freep heals now, but freeps cant outdps creep heals.******
    (If not stated otherwise, THIS IS MY PERSONAL OPINION).
    To much healing on both side is the problem, the catch is that right now as a percent of morale creep spike DPS is good enough to kill a freep healer but it is harder for freeps to kill a creep healer. 14k impale on a 20k rk/mini > 20k hit on 60k defiler. With the OP healing now possible sustained DPS is next to worthless unless the healer you are trying to bring down is vastly outnumbered. As with most PvP games, spike damage is the deciding factor.

    Wanna bet that +1 defiler is player previous enjoying Warden and Captain for last 2 expansions? BRING BACK 1HR CD ON FLIPPING.
    I don't think flipping is a bad as most think it is, but yea a one hour CD would be nice. They needed to nerf freep heals, instead the buffed creep heals.
    Last edited by doug01; Apr 22 2014 at 09:45 AM.
    "...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace

  9. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    ..
    Totally agree.

    I'll add that they should had reworked the WL, giving him a non-cd heal like "Raise my Spirit" or simply reworking the one already existing. they would add tweaked the "QnW" cooldown reset mechanic to match with the change.
    And giving to creeps some way to cure themself. A small cure to BA. A big cure to defiler and a AoE one to WL.

    And finally they could had add a single target healing stance that you can toggle for defilers:

    Something like WL stance.

    Let's say.

    Defiler Healing Stance:
    +50%(maybe 70%) outgoing healing
    Efflorescence is no longer a group Hot.
    Fertile, Fungal bloom and spores cooldown increased by x2.5/3~
    Fell restoration cast time decrease to 1s, and cd decreased to 15s.

    It would had not let the defiler in the "Spreading Hot Machine" state and would had add some strong pro-active healing to the creep side.
    "My friends call me Gray, my enemies call for back-up" - GRay, 2003.
    "Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" - GRay, 2012.

    r11 warg, r9 reaver/BA/def, r8 WL/Weav. Freep destroyer since 1989.

  10. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by douglasburns View Post

    Have also seen good small group creep vs freep with kills back and forth ruined when 1 defiler shows up. Fight over, fun over, pvp over.
    Same could been said about any healing freep class before the update. But ive to agree with this. When i show up and i see creeps getting slaughtered (at a gv camp) i wont even bother with healing them. I just look at them die. I even let my tribemate die. I dont like gramscamping/rezcamping/gvcamping. I wont participate in it. I'll just heal myself if im being attacked while i sit underneath my tree and look at the camping.


    Quote Originally Posted by douglasburns View Post

    This is why defilers should be mad about this change.

    First: i only play my defiler/ba and played a wl between HD and u13. I'm mad at all those r0 defilers (counted 5 r0 defilers with that fat cow anniversary skin at 8am est on a lowpopulated server) that as no clue how to heal, but fully storebought and grouped up for a gvcamp. If the hots werent enough to keep 1 defiler up, they just use blessing of darkness, a r12(?) skill that has been broken since HD. Most of those defilers were freepside moors players. Before the update freeps outnumbered creeps 3:1 but with all those FoTM players creeps outnumber 1:5 if not more.

    But we cant forget that most of those lowranked defilers were there during the daily gramscamp, healtagging stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    Trust me, i am... and lot of defilers fellows had to go on that bad TESO game to grind level instead of just doing nothing with their class on LOTRO.
    Since defiler was practically useless (i still managed to play mine decent) for groups/raids i decided to rank up a wl. I got him r8 and i enjoyed playing him. Even when it felt like i was enforced to play 1 in order to get some fights going.


    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post

    BRING BACK 1HR CD ON FLIPPING.
    This doesnt stop FoTM players from playing the numbergame or playing the winning side. Only solution for this problem was not allowing creeps and freeps on the same server. Numbers > skills.



    Ive to say i did enjoy playing my defiler for a few days with the update. I mainly troll healed myself.

    As showing in the pictures below i ran all the way from GV to south tr rocks chased by 8 freeps (2 upscaled and cappy/champ/rk grouped up) I've to admit that, if it wasnt for champ dual bug, i would have made it to the backdoor.






    Few days later I encountered 2 groups. First grouped was 2rk/2 burg and 2nd group was 3 burgs 1 rk. 3 out of 4 were the same players in both groups. It took them 4-5 minuts to kill me. Should it take it so long for them to kill a r12 defiler? No!

    Ive to say: Is a defiler op? Yes but you can only be op if you know how to play it.




    P.S: I do have to admit that most of the freeps (those in the picture and those from the group) couldnt kill me in a 1v1 before the update. But since the update im capable of fighting back.
    Retired from lotro since june '14. Currently kicking other noobs on gw2.

  11. #186
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    None of those freeps applied -inc healing debuffs, top quality.

  12. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    None of those freeps applied -inc healing debuffs, top quality.
    Look again at my debuffs, the rk did use the -30% healing, since he didnt spam it i could easily pot it
    Retired from lotro since june '14. Currently kicking other noobs on gw2.

  13. #188
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    622
    Quote Originally Posted by ulza View Post
    Look again at my debuffs, the rk did use the -30% healing, since he didnt spam it i could easily pot it
    LM should've applied SOP:C or AC before the RK put that on, preventing the cure. Low CD skill too, no excuse lol.

  14. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    Seriously? I'm absolutely terrible at my reaver and I can recall several times in the last 2-3 years of winning 1v# verses low ranked freeps. I was winning 1v1s verse low ranked freeps during RoI. In terms of low ranked players only thing I ever had issues with consistently were burgs and them running away.
    As i said - *audacious* low ranked freeps - that means its either alt of experienced freep or experienced creep? At least most of the time. New freeps *without audacity and experience* werent big problem, but still not too easy meal as low ranked creep, but i dont want to go that way with my story, we all know why is that like that

    But compared to those, mentioned above (*audacious* low ranked freeps), my creeps were easy meal to most of the freeps until i hit rank 6-7. Which isnt the case on the brighter side of map - rank doesnt matter for freep, IMO, cause my gard alt without rank but with audacity and my burg with some decent rank and audacity are same sh*t to me (Apologies to my beloved chars, i hope they dont mind...)

    Anyway, i went in totaly wrong direction, sorry 'bout that, defilers are in focus here.

    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    LOL?
    Yep, i really think so, if they didnt nerfed freeps, letting them stay the same, at least defilers would stop all the farming we experienced in last few months.

    Im not well informed about defilers dps, i guess they cant heal and kill half of the freeps fighting them, so its not really that bad.
    If you ask me, and im very sorry to say this, but... People that do have high rank spiders - we are god damn OP-est class in this game atm. Thrust me. Not defilers, not reavers. ****************************** ****Spiders!****************** ****************

    I pressed f8 instead of f9 to capture the moment, and failed to show you video of me killing 4 out of 7 freeps that were fighting me. 2 burgs (scaled), new guard and scaled LM. ANd then i died. They werent grouped, there was 2 guards, dps mini (?!), 3 burgs and that poor LM in total. Dont comment their skill, or mine, they probably didnt knew about dot reflecting and my exxxxtreeeemly big dps, but still... 7 dummys should be able to kill 1 player in any game, without his chance to even think of harming anyone.

    But im still waiting to see them geared, not scaled, with some tactic, probably wouldnt happen anything similar. But atm - go the other way when you see high rank weaver that knows his skills.
    Chieftain Mreza, Kokosovo mleko Chieftain (Rank 12 weaver)
    Brekka Crixus of Eldar, Potomci Numenora, Evernight (Ex Lazareva vojska)

    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  15. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    LM should've applied SOP:C or AC before the RK put that on, preventing the cure. Low CD skill too, no excuse lol.
    I'd say a good excuse was that lm was upscaled, no?

  16. #191
    This might have been said earlier. But, if we are trying to compare defiler to be one free class, why is everyone saying its a mini.... they heal in two different ways... the defiler heals like an rk , proactive .. while a minister is reactive... defilers in no way should ever be like minstrels... they aren't even close to similar classes ... minus both have green colored killzzzz..

    BTW something is up if it took more than 2 people to kill a minstrel last update... considering a reaver who is semi decent could solo one given the right crits... and is easy if you had a wary around
    .

    Freeps- Deok lvl 95 Hunter
    Creeps - Cintona Rank 11 Darkblits Rank 7

  17. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I'd say a good excuse was that lm was upscaled, no?
    No he wasnt upscaled. as you can clearly see in the screenshot. Only the guard and that mini (level 85) were upscaled.
    Retired from lotro since june '14. Currently kicking other noobs on gw2.

  18. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by ulza View Post
    No he wasnt upscaled. as you can clearly see in the screenshot. Only the guard and that mini (level 85) were upscaled.
    how can you tell? Even if he wasn't, it's not like this guy who's a red rank is going to know certain counter skills to coordinate with a rk that is probably outside of his group in a certain order.

  19. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    how can you tell? Even if he wasn't, it's not like this guy who's a red rank is going to know certain counter skills to coordinate with a rk that is probably outside of his group in a certain order.
    I cant tell from the picture for the upscaling. but knowing most all those people the only real threat was probably Aa. and my minis dragged people across the moors before too, so I don't really see the point, other than 2 classes healers are about equally OP, when they should be equally mediocre instead.

    not really a case for defiler op'ness, from these pics anyway.

    These guys weren't coordinated or grouped, so to expect that they would work as a team, well that doesn't happen very much anymore, and since the update, it really needs to start happening.

  20. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    how can you tell? Even if he wasn't, it's not like this guy who's a red rank is going to know certain counter skills to coordinate with a rk that is probably outside of his group in a certain order.
    Because i read skill descriptions? Upscaled freeps have 2 'buffs' that pointing out there are upscaled. 1 saying: scaled up to level 95 and the other 1 saying: how much audacity, vitality and will/might/agility they've gotten from the upscale.

    To know which level he is, you can simply hover over his character and it tells you what his level is.


    Yes, the lm was not grouped with the rk. Maybe he didnt know out how OOC works. Afterall he's r5.
    Retired from lotro since june '14. Currently kicking other noobs on gw2.

  21. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by ulza View Post
    No he wasnt upscaled. as you can clearly see in the screenshot.
    I can read descriptions too, and know of the upscaling icons, but you claimed you could tell in the SS.

  22. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Seglord View Post
    I can read descriptions too, and know of the upscaling icons, but you claimed you could tell in the SS.
    Maybe i could tell it because ive the lm targetted? You cant see the other toons levels but if you look close enough you'll notice that the guard is the only 1 without audacity.



    For my good friend Mrfiggs:

    Bar of my level 51 mini (not on vilya)



    scaled up buff 1



    scaled up buff 2



    Moors temporary access buff:



    hovering over a toon to se his level:




    I hope this clear things up. Dont derail this thread because of your hatred for me. We both know i was capable of playing a defiler before this ######## update kicked in
    Last edited by ulza; Apr 22 2014 at 01:42 PM.
    Retired from lotro since june '14. Currently kicking other noobs on gw2.

  23. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    how can you tell? Even if he wasn't, it's not like this guy who's a red rank is going to know certain counter skills to coordinate with a rk that is probably outside of his group in a certain order.
    its.... pretty.... easy.... to.... tell... if.... upscaled..... and.... their.... actual.... level.....

  24. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by ulza View Post
    Maybe i could tell it because ive the lm targetted? You cant see the other toons levels but if you look close enough you'll notice that the guard is the only 1 without audacity.



    For my good friend Mrfiggs:

    Bar of my level 51 mini (not on vilya)



    scaled up buff 1



    scaled up buff 2



    Moors temporary access buff:



    hovering over a toon to se his level:




    I hope this clear things up. Dont derail this thread because of your hatred for me. We both know i was capable of playing a defiler before this ######## update kicked in
    i don't know what to say. I was actually backing you up. I seriously didn't mean to derail anything other than reply to moors-battlemaster that he shouldn't expect a greenie (one way or another) lm to coordinate with a rk so a pot is on cd. Let me be perfectly clear, I wasn't trolling you in the least, I just didn't know how you knew simply because i've never targetted another upscaled freep before. I have no beef with you. I think defilers are OP, and i think you were also an above average defiler (far above average is stretching it :P), but since minis are op as well, i'm ok with it. I have no beef with you. Some people just don't get along and it seems that we don't. End of story.
    Last edited by mrfigglesworth; Apr 22 2014 at 02:33 PM.

  25. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post


    Some people just won't accept the fact that wardens have drastically changed, and either they don't realize or don't want to realize that Turbine lies (WHAT?) when the character page states that a warden's best role is tank, because right now, it excels at single target sustained dps, not tanking. Who knows, maybe with the AoE changes, they excel at AoE sustained dps too now?
    I don't know what the standard level of DPS is anymore. I know that in RoI and RoR if you couldn't hit 1k DPS you weren't that good.

    But now in HD with single target DPS, I can easily get 4k DPS with my Warden. In terms of AoE damage, I've only tested it in Way of Smiths skraids. With a good amount of crits, I can get over 10k DPS with Recklessness. But normally and without Recklessness, I get around 7k DPS.
    Don't let the join date fool you, I've been playing since August 2010.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Yt9pET8.png[/IMG]

 

 
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