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Thread: Defilers = OP

  1. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Fannee View Post
    your logic .... ./sigh

    cba teach u anymore
    Man, noone talked about taking down a mini in 3s right after switching on him, you imagined that all by yourself.

    The only way to achieve that is, having something like 12 BAs coordinating VT on a target. And then dying miserably cause too much BAs isnt viable in RaidVRaid Setting. And in reality this will take more than 3s anyways cause of positionning issues.

  2. #152
    This is gonna be a long post. Read it if you want, if you don't... /shrug. It's k.

    Okay, so some people are talking about reavers not being able to take on a mini pre-u13.

    First, let me point out a crucial fact: Sustained dps numbers from combat analysis mean nothing in PvP. Nothing.

    PvP is all about burst damage. Why? Because the heals on both side are designed to be able to heal through sustained damage. The majority of healing skills are high burst with inductions or high cooldowns. The HoTs that are in this game are designed to compete with sustained dps. They will out heal sustained dps classes like fire RKs or... ugh, what other sustained dps classes are there in LOTRO now?

    Okay, so point is, and most PvPers will agree -- you beat heals by burst dps, not sustained combat analysis numbers.

    Saying "1.2k dps on a reaver can't burst down a mini" is useless, because 1.2k dps across 2 mins is not what we're looking at. Any reaver who knew what the hell he was doing pre-u13 could use immediate skills to cut off every single bleed skill animation to go straight into an impale. Macro's were a big thing, but if you have fast fingers you don't need a macro. You just click buttons, and your bleeds are all up very quickly.

    Just to elaborate, here's how I go through it:
    Thrash > Gut Punch > Mutilation > Resilience > Jagged Cut > Disarm > Lacerate

    And if you are really sneaky sneaky, and have Blood of Fire off cd, use BoF and go straight into the impale. Due to the nature of immediate skills, this will all happen within ~2-4 seconds.

    Now you can blade toss into dev strike or vice versa, and if you didn't manage to kill him with this you have ATO to immediately refresh all your immediate skills if you want to run through a blade toss > any immediate skill > dev strike combo again.

    All of this will probably give you at least 16k, but usually around the ~22k mark, worth of damage on any full audacity freep. If you're really lucky and impale devs or blade toss devs, etc. etc. you could probably get around ~27k. This is all within a 5-6 second time frame.

    If you failed to do this the first time... guess what?!? You can use ATO and do it all again! All with the current dev strike debuff on the minstrel! Glorious.

    Now your dps falls off drastically as you run the typical ravage-gut punch combo into sudden strikes and severing strike, but I think you get the idea.

    With one reaver, you have a chance against a healing minstrel. With two reavers, you are guaranteed a kill unless one of them is inherently incapable of putting up bleeds in a strikingly simple fashion that I've already explained. Coordination is key. If you simply spam impale every time it comes off cd, not when you have 4 bleeds up, you will never finish off that minstrel, of course. And you shouldn't. You don't deserve the kill.

    It doesn't matter if your dps is 1.2k sustained if you have the potential to get 5k dps in a short time frame and finish off your target. The same goes for any class that revolves around burst dps in PvP... haha, wait, that's like, almost every class in LOTRO.

    ./longpostrant
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  3. #153
    Please note Impale doesn't crit by default. Nor does BT. Oh and, apply Thrash last, as it's removable and is equal to "Impale inc".
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Please note Impale doesn't crit by default. Nor does BT. Oh and, apply Thrash last, as it's removable and is equal to "Impale inc".
    I always put up a dust or upper hand before all this. Forgot to mention that. Thrash is your highest bleed, and as such it should go up as close to the front of your rotation as possible, in order to maximize its effectiveness in bleed ticks before your impale. Also, against guards I change up this rotation due to the fact that they can spam remove wounds. Which is highly unfortunate for a reaver.

    Yes, impale won't crit by default, but the lowest you can get it with 4 bleeds up is somewhere around the 8-9k region. Lowest BT will be around the 1.5k-2k region, and you should be in DS threshold by then. Lowest DS is around the 3k region, probably. So it adds up to roughly 16k. Considering auto attacks and bleed ticks, etc. Like, I said, it's all very rough. You can't estimate perfectly, but 16k is a good guess for your lowest possible goal.

    If you are at half health, or anything less than full health, which is perfectly conceivable, these numbers will all go up, keep in mind the reaver's passive too.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    I always put up a dust or upper hand before all this. Forgot to mention that. Thrash is your highest bleed, and as such it should go up as close to the front of your rotation as possible, in order to maximize its effectiveness in bleed ticks before your impale. Also, against guards I change up this rotation due to the fact that they can spam remove wounds. Which is highly unfortunate for a reaver.
    Like I said, it's just alerting your opponent... I know this theory behind it, but I always find it removed when actually Impaling.

    Yes, impale won't crit by default, but the lowest you can get it with 4 bleeds up is somewhere around the 8-9k region. Lowest BT will be around the 1.5k-2k region, and you should be in DS threshold by then. Lowest DS is around the 3k region, probably. So it adds up to roughly 16k. Considering auto attacks and bleed ticks, etc. Like, I said, it's all very rough. You can't estimate perfectly, but 16k is a good guess for your lowest possible goal.
    So... You non-crit for 1,7k each hit? Wow. Impressive.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  6. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Like I said, it's just alerting your opponent... I know this theory behind it, but I always find it removed when actually Impaling.
    That's fair. Probably good idea to change up my rotation. Maybe leave thrash for 3rd... freeps will probably expect an impale coming when they see 2-3 bleeds up, and by that time it's usually too late given the speed with which you can put up bleeds and transition straight into impale. It really is quite quick in game, I definitely wasn't exaggerating when I said 3-4 seconds.


    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    So... You non-crit for 1,7k each hit? Wow. Impressive.
    I mean... not really...

    I don't think I ever got 1.7k non crit pre-u13, but 1.4k, 1.5k was feasible against freeps. This still adds up to a ~8-9k threshold with the base skill hitting for a little over 2k, I think ~2.2k was the usual hit threshold for my impale pre-u13.

    Unfortunately, I actually don't have any SS's of my impale numbers pre-u13, but here's one of me in u13.....



    The numbers are higher... and this is probably due to a couple of factors -- the raw stat boost, and I'm not sure if the Light training dummy is considered "full audacity light armor class" or "partial audacity" or how it is calculated -- but I think you can imagine that 1.5k and 2.2k were numbers that could regularly happen pre-u13.

    Also, just realized I didn't check how many OPs the creeps had. From the icons, it looks like just 2...?

    Again, keep in mind that I'm at full morale in this as well. By the time you're impaling in PvP, you're definitely gonna be below full health, and thus, doing more damage. Unless the freep is just standing there smiling as you jab at him, lol

    And again, I want to emphasize the estimate aspect of all this. There are just so many factors that doing a raw number analysis usually isn't good. Auto attacks bring in a lot more damage than one would think, and even a couple bleed ticks for that OP 150 common damage or so still means a lot when there's 4 of them and they tick twice before you impale.


    EDIT: Does anyone see the common damage from my auto attack in that SS? Lawl. Wasn't Turbine supposed to make all auto attacks orc craft damage now?
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    EDIT: Does anyone see the common damage from my auto attack in that SS? Lawl. Wasn't Turbine supposed to make all auto attacks orc craft damage now?
    Yes. The orc-craft damage change doesn't apply to the second hit of the autoattack.

    It's simply astounding that a professional game developer meddles with the code to change something, and then doesn't even check to see whether or it produced the desired result. It explains a lot, though, about how all these bugs keep cropping up in the game. The developers edit the code, and blindly push it out with no testing. Just unbelievable.

  8. #158
    Ugh. It's not even surprising anymore. That's what's worse about it, it's what we've come to expect.

    The facepalm is real, gents.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  9. #159
    Of course everything Anoorc-1 says is true. I just wanted to point out that in a real fight with a mini there are many things you ussually want to do before using impale, not only stacking bleeds. This includes hamstring, sundering blow, and maybe even upper hand. With kiting and whatnot, this will probably make impale hit around the 8-10s mark. You don't have enough immediate skills to interrupt everything.

    Also, it was perfectly possible to kill a mini as a solo reaver pre-U13. But it is also true that minis which had practice vs reavers and had good timing on their flops/fears made it quite a challenge. These also were the players who stacked enough survivability that it was rather rare to get them below 1/2 health with one imapale, even when you did get it with 4-bleeds.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020100004f382b/signature.png]Bloodbad[/charsig]

  10. #160
    yep, noticed some common damage autos on my warg last night too...
    Bettee, Flaps
    The Mellowship
    .

  11. #161
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Licking, Mo.
    Posts
    80
    still not seeing where the QQing is coming from, having no issues surviving... only having issues with people combat logging while I am beating them to death on my guard..... something needs to be done about the log out timer (ONLY!)... the rest of you unwad those undies... go deed your mitigations and start fighting instead of QQing!... just because the creeps are an even match your hiding on GV steps and whining while others of us are killing and waiting for you to put on your big boy pants

  12. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflies View Post
    Of course everything Anoorc-1 says is true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflies View Post
    I just wanted to point out that in a real fight with a mini there are many things you ussually want to do before using impale, not only stacking bleeds. This includes hamstring, sundering blow, and maybe even upper hand. With kiting and whatnot, this will probably make impale hit around the 8-10s mark.
    Okay, and I'll point out a few things as well. Sundering blow wasn't amazing before u13. I guess that extra 10-12 damage on each common bleed and auto attack makes a huge difference, but considering that orc craft didn't go through mitigations, armor tearing wasn't crucial. At least, it didn't make a difference while solo.

    You would have resilience up during this combo, so they can't CC you -- that's why you'd hit it as the second immediate skill. If you're afraid the freep might kite, you could always open with blade toss/hamstring, then upper hand, then combo.

    Even considering that into account, you're saying it takes you 5-6s to hit BT or hamstring and then upper hand? I'd consider getting those reflexes checked out by a doctor.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  13. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post




    Okay, and I'll point out a few things as well. Sundering blow wasn't amazing before u13. I guess that extra 10-12 damage on each common bleed and auto attack makes a huge difference, but considering that orc craft didn't go through mitigations, armor tearing wasn't crucial. At least, it didn't make a difference while solo.

    You would have resilience up during this combo, so they can't CC you -- that's why you'd hit it as the second immediate skill. If you're afraid the freep might kite, you could always open with blade toss/hamstring, then upper hand, then combo.

    Even considering that into account, you're saying it takes you 5-6s to hit BT or hamstring and then upper hand? I'd consider getting those reflexes checked out by a doctor.
    I was thinking post-U13 when I included SB. And I like to save Blade-toss to use right before impale, just for that little extra burst to increase my chances of getting them below 1/2. I rather take my time in applying debuffs and blleds, and save all my burst and immediate skills for the same time. Really gonna take a shot at me for no good reason after I agreed with you? The forum epeen is strong in this one.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020100004f382b/signature.png]Bloodbad[/charsig]

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflies View Post
    And I like to save Blade-toss to use right before impale, just for that little extra burst to increase my chances of getting them below 1/2.
    I'll agree that this does make sense, and is a smart strategy. I also agree with your point that mini's who used flop/fear effectively could increase their chances of living by a lot. Again, still possible for the reaver to kill them, but much harder than your average mini. Which is good -- skilled players could survive longer, not forever, but longer, maybe long enough to get help.

    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflies View Post
    Really gonna take a shot at me for no good reason after I agreed with you? The forum epeen is strong in this one.
    1) Part of it was insult, part of it really was confusion since you were in essence saying 2 skills take 5-6s to execute.

    2) You were the first one to take a shot, /shrug. I don't insult people unless they instigate or I have a reason to. That doesn't translate to forum epeen, but rather just life in general. I'm not a carebear who tries to always please everyone no matter what they say, and while that bothers some, it doesn't bother others. That's life, and how I've learned to live it.

    3) I kinda finished making my point which was relevant to this thread like 2-3 posts ago, so no point in continuing further.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  15. #165
    Going back to the original theme of theme of the forum thread, I fought two rank 4 defilers and a r5 defiler in hop last night and I couldn't get any of them below 28k morale. I applied heal debuffs and kept them up, used all my bleeds and since I trait red I had double spear bleeds so that comes out to 8-12 DoTs at any given time, and even used Recklessness for the +50% damage and +1368 critical rating. Never thought I'd see the day where three low rank Defilers out-heal my DPS.

    Here's a picture of CombatAnalysis. Please take note that the DPS was actually around 2k DPS but then I decided this fight wasn't worth it and started running so the numbers dropped down.



    *Edit: Grammatical errors.
    Don't let the join date fool you, I've been playing since August 2010.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Yt9pET8.png[/IMG]

  16. #166
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    889
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmicusthegreen View Post
    Going back to the original theme of theme of the forum thread, I fought two rank 4 defilers and a r5 defiler in hop last night and I couldn't get any of them below 28k morale. I applied heal debuffs and kept them up, used all my bleeds and since I trait red I had double spear bleeds so that comes out to 8-12 DoTs at any given time, and even used Recklessness for the +50% damage and +1368 critical rating. Never thought I'd see the day where three low rank Defilers out-heal my DPS.

    Here's a picture of CombatAnalysis. Please take note that the DPS was actually around 2k DPS but then I decided this fight wasn't worth it and started running so the numbers dropped down.



    *Edit: Grammatical errors.

    So to sum it up:

    You couldn't kill 3 defilers
    Defiler is a healing class
    your one person
    Last edited by Hayden102; Apr 21 2014 at 06:49 AM.
    Kornakhas -Defiler, Korbashburz -Reaver, Kortdogestyle -Warg, Kornquickscopamlg - Black Arrow, Kornslurpyourblood - Weaver -Pyrrhic
    Kortahl-Captain, Korthillion-Rune-Keeper, Korthro-Lore Master, Korthallion-Minstrel, Kormornoroth-Champion - The Dark Legion

  17. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmicusthegreen View Post
    Going back to the original theme of theme of the forum thread, I fought two rank 4 defilers and a r5 defiler in hop last night and I couldn't get any of them below 28k morale. I applied heal debuffs and kept them up, used all my bleeds and since I trait red I had double spear bleeds so that comes out to 8-12 DoTs at any given time, and even used Recklessness for the +50% damage and +1368 critical rating. Never thought I'd see the day where three low rank Defilers out-heal my DPS.

    Here's a picture of CombatAnalysis. Please take note that the DPS was actually around 2k DPS but then I decided this fight wasn't worth it and started running so the numbers dropped down.



    *Edit: Grammatical errors.
    Sooo... 3 healers vs one *not* dps class in dps gear and traits, and you didnt killed any of them, but neither they killed you - thats problem?

    Cauuuse.. My spider vs 3 minstrels / 3 runekeepers (any rank) at any time since LOTRO came out - not only that wouldnt kill any of them, but wouldnt even consider staying alive.

    Still.. I will understand your post as - Good, finaly i cant kill 3 healers by myself, rather than - Omg, those 3 low ranks and i couldnt kill none all alone, OP b*stards.

    Cheers
    Chieftain Mreza, Kokosovo mleko Chieftain (Rank 12 weaver)
    Brekka Crixus of Eldar, Potomci Numenora, Evernight (Ex Lazareva vojska)

    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  18. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmicusthegreen View Post
    Going back to the original theme of theme of the forum thread, I fought two rank 4 defilers and a r5 defiler in hop last night and I couldn't get any of them below 28k morale. I applied heal debuffs and kept them up, used all my bleeds and since I trait red I had double spear bleeds so that comes out to 8-12 DoTs at any given time, and even used Recklessness for the +50% damage and +1368 critical rating. Never thought I'd see the day where three low rank Defilers out-heal my DPS.

    Here's a picture of CombatAnalysis. Please take note that the DPS was actually around 2k DPS but then I decided this fight wasn't worth it and started running so the numbers dropped down.



    *Edit: Grammatical errors.
    This is good in my mind. I'm not sure if you meant to pass it off as being a good thing or not, but imo this is good. 3 low rank defilers should be able to outheal one freep. If they weren't, it'd just be free meat, and... free meat isn't fun. For either side!
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  19. #169
    I meant the post to say it's a good thing. Good insomuch that Defilers finally have good enough heals to not let me get a kill. Though I was actually shocked that I couldn't get one down below 28k. I knew their healing was buffed but I wasn't aware it was buffed by that much.
    Don't let the join date fool you, I've been playing since August 2010.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Yt9pET8.png[/IMG]

  20. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post
    Sooo... 3 healers vs one *not* dps class in dps gear and traits
    How do we still have posts like this?
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  21. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    How do we still have posts like this?
    Made me lol xD Kinnie got refused the other day, because "Wardens can't DPS". It is known.
    They suck at tanking as well, though (or so I've heard).
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  22. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Made me lol xD Kinnie got refused the other day, because "Wardens can't DPS". It is known.
    They suck at tanking as well, though (or so I've heard).
    Well lets say this clearly then.

    Wardens
    Are
    The
    Highest
    Sustain
    Dps
    Class
    In
    The
    Moors

    If they can't get it now, no one can.

  23. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    Well lets say this clearly then.

    Wardens
    Are
    The
    Highest
    Sustain
    Dps
    Class
    In
    The
    Moors

    If they can't get it now, no one can.
    I know that, but tell it to my server's globallff.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I know that, but tell it to my server's globallff.


    Some people just won't accept the fact that wardens have drastically changed, and either they don't realize or don't want to realize that Turbine lies (WHAT?) when the character page states that a warden's best role is tank, because right now, it excels at single target sustained dps, not tanking. Who knows, maybe with the AoE changes, they excel at AoE sustained dps too now? I wouldn't know.

    I don't know what the devs' plans are for the class in the future, but right now, it's not excelling at what it's *supposed* to be excelling at.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  25. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    don't want to realize that Turbine lies (WHAT?) when the character page states that
    True, my champ's page still states "damage".
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

 

 
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