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Thread: Defilers = OP

  1. #276
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    Probably worth mentioning that nearly all defiler debuffs can be removed by pots/RK/Lore Master/cappy effect removals.

    Shumzuda R11 Blackarrow - Shumheals R6 Defiler - Shumzud R6 Warg Beardhug R9 Champion - Majeika R8 LM - Chuffnel Burglar
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  2. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Shumzuda View Post
    Probably worth mentioning that nearly all defiler debuffs can be removed by pots/RK/Lore Master/cappy effect removals.
    True, I think that needs some adressing as well, I think if the debuff get's potted, it should leave a fraction of the original debuff. Although from the tooltips I can't see which ones are removable or not (resistance type just tells which kind of resist takes care of it, and it determines what kind of pot you need if it's a removable debuff).

    So for the fate/armour etc debuff, an example: On removal: -100 Fate, -1000 Armour, -1500 Physical and Tactical Mastery (15s duration), which can't be potted.

    Maybe a similar way can be added to blight in order to make it more reliable (which should justify a slight nerf in the normal version to 40/60), so if you leave it, it applies a -10% incoming healing debuff (-15% for the traited version). Although this is just an idea, for some reason I think if turbine would implement this, it'd become bugged...
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  3. #278
    To be honest, I think the main issue is the number of defilers out there at the moment.
    Just had to face a 17 man craid with 6 defilers and 2 WLs in it, the result was not so thrilling. Besides the flippers, who used to and will always define how fights might go, what is really weird in my opinion is the insane amount of healing you can stack, EVEN being just a greenie.
    The few solutions I came to realize are the introduction of a dps/healing stance, not swappable in combat, with major nerf to dps/debuffs or to healing (similar to war leaders, but definitely better done -.-);
    another possible solution might be making multiple defilers' HoTs stack with minor versions, so that you don't get a 15k pulse every few seconds, which is largely overpowered even for RvR;
    also, the inductions probably need a complete retweak, or skills need a longer cooldown.
    There's a thing I'd like to point out too: I keep reading people pointing out that it's fair having OP creeps, since freeps were OP for a lot of time. I know how hard is balancing pvp and all that stuff, but what I was hoping to have live with U13 were fair fights, not just more facerolling on a different side. That's not fun for most players, and makes the "bad" ones flip side instantly. Trying to balance stuff would probably give us better fights and more fun, not sure why most people seem to miss that last point.

    [Edit] Just to point out a last thing: I think good players on freep side can DEFINITELY give hard times to creeps, red captain+burg/warden is one of the most OP combos I've ever seen. Still have to try a good RvR though, since the main issue experiencing on my server is the lack of people, which is not even hard to understand: why would they pay to play a nerfed side, when they can ezmode (no offence, but right now playing a creep requires way less skill then playing a freep, as long as your nose hits impale/reflect and so on) with less effort and no money on the other one?
    Last edited by Manulele; May 24 2014 at 09:37 PM.

  4. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shumzuda View Post
    Probably worth mentioning that nearly all defiler debuffs can be removed by pots/RK/Lore Master/cappy effect removals.
    Probably worth mentioning that 1 defiler can load up these debuffs faster than several classes can get rid of them.

    How long did/does it take yellow traited LM's to fully debuff a target, let alone maintain them? That also comes before thinking about cures for them (only available via creep pots mind you).


    Question is, do we add this in with the DPS/Heal disproportionality?

    I.e. Are defilers the best creepside debuffers as well as the best creepside DPS and heals?

  5. #280
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Are defilers the best creepside debuffers as well as the best creepside DPS and heals?
    Defilers are best DPS?

    BTW if we're taking best debuffers, we would have to take a look at all other debuffs to make comparisons, both creepside and freep.
    And also have to take into account the rank requirements for alot of those debuffs, while also taking into account turbines p2w skill-buy policy.
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  6. #281
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    Ok I didn't read the full 12 pages, partially because I'm lazy, partially because it's probably 11.8 pages of arguing/QQ'ing that at some point 3 years ago class X Y or Z was OP so now it's defilers turn.

    BS.

    Back to the point at hand, someone raised about debuffs. Currently, one defiler, can debuff better than ANY FREEP CLASS can, including classes that have to SPECIFICALLY trait out of doing dps or heals or whatever else, JUST to debuff, and it's not as good as semi-inductionless, tiny cooldown debuffs which, whilst potable, are re-apply-able extremely quickly, not to mention the fact that you can have multiple defilers dps'ing, debuffing, and healing, all at the same time.

    The combination of the 3 whilst not "the best DPS" in the game, and not necessarily the best healing, giving immense heal over time + tremendous debuffing ability + some pretty underestimated DPS, too, is too much.

    Someone said "Defiler debuff should be buffed to remove 8k mastery" do you have ANY IDEA how much damage debuff 8k mastery is, and you want creeps to just be able to spam these out on a whim, whilst simultaneously doing 2 other tasks (heals and dps/minor cc/aggravation).

    That, and the fact that armour value is now extremely important, in debuff, a reaver alone using a 4(?) second cooldown skill, will give any light armour class 0 armour (and thus a reduction of between 8-18% FW/OC mits) for 60 seconds solid. That's ONE class, a great number of creep classes have mits debuffs, and they all stack.

    Add that, to blight, which if you get stuck, lagged, stunned, knocked down, or in an unbreakable daze on (pot on CD), you're screwed no matter what. The second you're under 50%, you have DS on you, which is irrelevant, because any group with an intelligent warg will have the 25% inc heals debuff on you anway.

    The whole concoction of immense creep dps buffs, massive freep mitigations nerfs, huge heal over time, massive morale pools on creepside, as well as the tremendous debuffing ability of defilers alone, let alone every other creep class combined, it's just too much right now. Yep some is potable, some is avoidable, but in the couple of seconds it takes you to get mashed by a 2k dps warg, and a 15k impale, and a 7k VT through 60% crit D and 40% mits, and then a 6k revenge, well, your shoddy 30 second potion isn't gonna do jack. And your LM who can't do anything but either debuff (barely) a creep, or do nothing but pot a few of your debuffs for you in the 3 seconds you're alive, well, what a waste.

    Things are nuts at the moment, debuffs need to be toned down big time, dps needs to be reduced on both sides and spike damage needs to be curved to reasonable numbers, morale pools need to be evened out a lot, and in general, so does healing.

    Ok you can now rip this post apart with "BUT MINSTRELS WERE OP FOR A WEEK "

  7. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Ok I didn't read the full 12 pages, partially because I'm lazy, partially because it's probably 11.8 pages of arguing/QQ'ing that at some point 3 years ago class X Y or Z was OP so now it's defilers turn.

    BS.

    Back to the point at hand, someone raised about debuffs. Currently, one defiler, can debuff better than ANY FREEP CLASS can, including classes that have to SPECIFICALLY trait out of doing dps or heals or whatever else, JUST to debuff, and it's not as good as semi-inductionless, tiny cooldown debuffs which, whilst potable, are re-apply-able extremely quickly, not to mention the fact that you can have multiple defilers dps'ing, debuffing, and healing, all at the same time.

    The combination of the 3 whilst not "the best DPS" in the game, and not necessarily the best healing, giving immense heal over time + tremendous debuffing ability + some pretty underestimated DPS, too, is too much.

    Someone said "Defiler debuff should be buffed to remove 8k mastery" do you have ANY IDEA how much damage debuff 8k mastery is, and you want creeps to just be able to spam these out on a whim, whilst simultaneously doing 2 other tasks (heals and dps/minor cc/aggravation).

    That, and the fact that armour value is now extremely important, in debuff, a reaver alone using a 4(?) second cooldown skill, will give any light armour class 0 armour (and thus a reduction of between 8-18% FW/OC mits) for 60 seconds solid. That's ONE class, a great number of creep classes have mits debuffs, and they all stack.

    Add that, to blight, which if you get stuck, lagged, stunned, knocked down, or in an unbreakable daze on (pot on CD), you're screwed no matter what. The second you're under 50%, you have DS on you, which is irrelevant, because any group with an intelligent warg will have the 25% inc heals debuff on you anway.

    The whole concoction of immense creep dps buffs, massive freep mitigations nerfs, huge heal over time, massive morale pools on creepside, as well as the tremendous debuffing ability of defilers alone, let alone every other creep class combined, it's just too much right now. Yep some is potable, some is avoidable, but in the couple of seconds it takes you to get mashed by a 2k dps warg, and a 15k impale, and a 7k VT through 60% crit D and 40% mits, and then a 6k revenge, well, your shoddy 30 second potion isn't gonna do jack. And your LM who can't do anything but either debuff (barely) a creep, or do nothing but pot a few of your debuffs for you in the 3 seconds you're alive, well, what a waste.

    Things are nuts at the moment, debuffs need to be toned down big time, dps needs to be reduced on both sides and spike damage needs to be curved to reasonable numbers, morale pools need to be evened out a lot, and in general, so does healing.

    Ok you can now rip this post apart with "BUT MINSTRELS WERE OP FOR A WEEK "
    Well put. I think that the duration of said abilities on both sides need to be looked at as well. The non removable ones last in some cases up to a minute long. In the moors with the dps out there now, that length of time is an eternity. Even if people have the shorter duration skills with short CD, there is a chance it might get slipped up on and not be on the person for a few seconds if the other player isn't paying attention to the debuffs.
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  8. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exion_Blade View Post
    Defilers are best DPS?

    BTW if we're taking best debuffers, we would have to take a look at all other debuffs to make comparisons, both creepside and freep.
    And also have to take into account the rank requirements for alot of those debuffs, while also taking into account turbines p2w skill-buy policy.
    Can maintain up to 800 DPS on a single target, almost on the move and at range with a tactically based source type. Not really noticeable given burst damage, but it most certainly rivals that of the weaver.
    Perhaps it would be better to say Defilers are the best sustained DPS creepside?

    As far as the best debuffer goes, it's looking at it in terms of

    1)how easy it is to make application
    versus
    2)the effect of the debuffs

    I'd say defiler wins hands down for number 1) and despite not making avid comparison for 2) there's some really devastating debuffs in the defilers arsenal, which off the top of my head don't have many rivals in power.
    Last edited by Untg99; May 25 2014 at 04:47 PM.

  9. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Probably worth mentioning that 1 defiler can load up these debuffs faster than several classes can get rid of them.

    How long did/does it take yellow traited LM's to fully debuff a target, let alone maintain them? That also comes before thinking about cures for them (only available via creep pots mind you).


    Question is, do we add this in with the DPS/Heal disproportionality?

    I.e. Are defilers the best creepside debuffers as well as the best creepside DPS and heals?
    Yellow LM takes maybe six seconds to apply a full set of debuffs to a target which can be AOE depending on the skills used. LM debuffs are certainly much more effective than a defiler and can be reapplied if they are removed.

    Who is saying that defiler dps is the best on creepside? Those changes were fine and I would be displeased to see them revoked.

    Shumzuda R11 Blackarrow - Shumheals R6 Defiler - Shumzud R6 Warg Beardhug R9 Champion - Majeika R8 LM - Chuffnel Burglar
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  10. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Can maintain up to 800 DPS on a single target, almost on the move and at range with a tactically based source type. Not really noticeable given burst damage, but it most certainly rivals that of the weaver.
    Perhaps it would be better to say Defilers are the best sustained DPS creepside?

    As far as the best debuffer goes, it's looking at it in terms of

    1)how easy it is to make application
    versus
    2)the effect of the debuffs

    I'd say defiler wins hands down for number 1) and despite not making avid comparison for 2) there's some really devastating debuffs in the defilers arsenal, which off the top of my head don't have many rivals in power.
    Defiler has better DPS (including sustained) than WL only ... u really should try parsing
    It cant sustain dps for long due to power problems
    Spider seems to be highest dps, my baby R7 seems to allways get aggro on CGs and parses ~2k on single target npc. Warg with postional is maybe around that also, havnt parsed that in a while tho
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  11. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Fannee View Post
    Defiler has better DPS (including sustained) than WL only ... u really should try parsing
    It cant sustain dps for long due to power problems
    Spider seems to be highest dps, my baby R7 seems to allways get aggro on CGs and parses ~2k on single target npc. Warg with postional is maybe around that also, havnt parsed that in a while tho
    Power problems aside, defiler's are quite competitive with BAs and reavers in sustained single target dps, and only slightly behind weavers. If you want to talk npc figures, a warg will put 2k dps on an npc to shame without positional, never mind with it.

    It says a lot about how miserable of a failure the current moors is that a healing class, making essentially no sacrifices in healing output potential is also on par with 2 of the 3 primary damage classes, and the primary CC class is a higher sustained damage source than 2 of the 3 primary dps classes, also while having to make at most minimal sacrifices to their ability to do their primary role.
    Last edited by spelunker; May 25 2014 at 08:50 PM.
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  12. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Power problems aside, defiler's are quite competitive with BAs and reavers in sustained single target dps, and only slightly behind weavers. If you want to talk npc figures, a warg will put 2k dps on an npc to shame without positional, never mind with it.

    It says a lot about how miserable of a failure the current moors is that a healing class, making essentially no sacrifices in healing output potential is also on par with 2 of the 3 primary damage classes, and the primary CC class is a higher sustained damage source than 2 of the 3 primary dps classes, also while having to make at most minimal sacrifices to their ability to do their primary role.
    So if u want to talk figures, how is ~800 dps of defiler only slightly behind a weaver with > 2k dps ??
    Are u also suggesting thats competitive with a RVR?
    BA + RVR dont have high sustained as u know but rely on burst but neither are <1k

    Dont see how u can just put the power issue aside, if a Def, heals, dps and debuffs it will run out v quickly particularly as flies nerfed

    The moors has been a miserable failure for 90% of the last 3 years or so since L75 for creeps , not just rubbish for freeps recently
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  13. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Fannee View Post
    So if u want to talk figures, how is ~800 dps of defiler only slightly behind a weaver with > 2k dps ??
    Are u also suggesting thats competitive with a RVR?
    BA + RVR dont have high sustained as u know but rely on burst but neither are <1k

    Dont see how u can just put the power issue aside, if a Def, heals, dps and debuffs it will run out v quickly particularly as flies nerfed

    The moors has been a miserable failure for 90% of the last 3 years or so since L75 for creeps , not just rubbish for freeps recently
    The person giving the 800 dps figure is talking about 800 dps on a full audacity target, not an NPC that also most likely has a non-existent tact mit rating. Do you want me to pull up defiler parses going way over 2k on an NPC?

    My warg runs out of power faster than any defilers I've seen, and if not for wrath, my reaver would run through its power pool about on par with a defiler as well. Now obviously with the reaver they do have something to counter the power problems, but that also means 'wasting' a powerful survival cooldown for the sake of power management, rather than, you know, survival.

    The 800 dps isn't my figure, but as a freep with a 'balanced' tact to phys mits build (roughly 38% of each), I've had defiler's parse about 800dps on me on a number of occasions, which is roughly analogous to what BAs and Reavers do, though they are obviously more affected by crit chance on specific skills causing outliers one way or the other where the defiler will be more consistent in dps.
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  14. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    The person giving the 800 dps figure is talking about 800 dps on a full audacity target, not an NPC that also most likely has a non-existent tact mit rating. Do you want me to pull up defiler parses going way over 2k on an NPC?

    My warg runs out of power faster than any defilers I've seen, and if not for wrath, my reaver would run through its power pool about on par with a defiler as well. Now obviously with the reaver they do have something to counter the power problems, but that also means 'wasting' a powerful survival cooldown for the sake of power management, rather than, you know, survival.

    The 800 dps isn't my figure, but as a freep with a 'balanced' tact to phys mits build (roughly 38% of each), I've had defiler's parse about 800dps on me on a number of occasions, which is roughly analogous to what BAs and Reavers do, though they are obviously more affected by crit chance on specific skills causing outliers one way or the other where the defiler will be more consistent in dps.
    Was the 800 dps on u from defiler while running u in and out of blight?

    If i fight any tank class on defi theres no way im gonna go ape #### dps while still healing the crazy dps from tanks and wdns coz i WILL run out of power way before coming close to killing it and then die by not being able to heal

    The 2k dps u talking about on a NPC will be a short burst, not sustained, they just dont sustain that dps and even with WL still wont - they can fire off the 4 guord skills (if they have) quick as theyre now no induction and fast skills, mb hit the 2 mellee skills and then constan pain while u w8 around for the CDs of the guords to gradually come back - the dps people are talking about is coming from that initial 4 guord hit which are fired off like PS on a hunter. Some 1 said on a different thread that by nerfing fast lob trait u would stop this and this makes sense. Changes are made to creeps v lazily coz they dont spend money or time on pvp. So in defilers case it receieved a global 1sec reduction in ALL skills when it wasnt needed. Having said that, for years, the 2s induction untraited & unaddled for such low damage skills was stupid - they previously crit less than many freep autoattacks
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  15. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fannee View Post
    Was the 800 dps on u from defiler while running u in and out of blight?
    I've had over 900 TPS taken without blight. The cooldowns of gourds mixed with instant casting makes for some pretty uber damage.

    Don't really want to think about blight bleeds, which in many cases is probably inevitable if you're a melee class.


    By the way, unless that tank class is specced mainly for survivability a defilers DPS will most definitely wear them down in as much as 30-40 seconds.
    Considering if they are DPS spec, one defiler shouldn't be dying in a 1 to 1 encounter anyway. Translate that to survival specs, and you have a pretty laughable battle.

  16. #291

    Defilers = OP

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    My warg runs out of power faster than any defilers I've seen, and if not for wrath, my reaver would run through its power pool about on par with a defiler as well. Now obviously with the reaver they do have something to counter the power problems, but that also means 'wasting' a powerful survival cooldown for the sake of power management, rather than, you know, survival.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Power problems aside
    I'vent really encountered power issues since u13 and im running with 4.5k power. Even when i spam heals, gourds and debuffs. I do agree that the powercost of the skills are high when you dont have audacity or when your powerpool is low. If you dont have efflorensence trait slotted, slot it because the -15% powercost affects all the skills. Another thing i suggest trying is to use your powerpots really early in the fights. I always use a powerpot when my power dropped by 1k-1.2k.

    I do have a few other power management tricks but i rather keep those for myself. (Thats shows who the FoTM defilers are on my server)


    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    By the way, unless that tank class is specced mainly for survivability a defilers DPS will most definitely wear them down in as much as 30-40 seconds.
    Considering if they are DPS spec, one defiler shouldn't be dying in a 1 to 1 encounter anyway. Translate that to survival specs, and you have a pretty laughable battle.

    Few days ago I had the chance to 1v1 a r9 champ. Sad person isnt the best but giving the fact that he/she always gave me fair fights pre u13 i decided to do the same. Not using heals or creepbuffs seemed the most fair thing to do.


    First fight: I used blight. Champ melted. i still had 36k out of 59k left.
    Second fight: I didnt use blight nor did i use fear. This resulted in a real close fight were the champ survived with 300 moral left. Note he had about 18-19k+
    third fight: I used fear twice. This gave about the same result as the 2nd fight since fear only benefits a player if he heals himself (atleast against a melee class). I managed to kill him with 600 moral left but died from bleeds.

    Ive to said that, in the last 2 fights i managed to deal 18k with only using my 2 melee attacks and a few gourds. Compaired to that champ he did 60k in the same amount of time. He/she did have a few 11k+ devestating remorse strike. Yes i could have healspammed but that would result in the champ running off.

    I never liked 1v1 where both sides dont use everything they got (apart from a few of those iWin buttons). But if handicaping myself by not using heals or using very little heals ill do so. (unless i dont like that dude, which are only 2-3 freeps)
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