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Thread: Defilers = OP

  1. #251
    I'm curious, how hindering is silence for a defiler? Shouldn't we be seeing more LMs spamming that these days?

  2. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflies View Post
    I'm curious, how hindering is silence for a defiler? Shouldn't we be seeing more LMs spamming that these days?
    only effects our offensive skills. Heals has no effect. (cept for constant pain)

  3. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflies View Post
    I'm curious, how hindering is silence for a defiler? Shouldn't we be seeing more LMs spamming that these days?
    Also defilers can't fear bomb while silenced.

  4. #254
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    The main problem, as I see it, is defilers can just stand there and heal, and never die. it takes 4-5 freeps now to overpower a good defiler's heals. That is ridiculious. what they need is a stance system that they choose either heals or dps/debuff, whith a global cooldown when they switch. Heals good in one, dps good in one. Heals should not be instant, but have a chance to be interrupted. It seems sort of amazingly stupid to see ranked defilers running around with 72k morals when mini has 15k? lol? maybe have them top out around 45k for a more sane and balanced fight.

    To reiterate rank1 defier = 3 freeps high rank = 5 freeps

    No one should be so overpowered (given equivilant ranks). 3 vs 1 should = dead to the solo.

    And they can (and often do) just sit there and self heal, and cry in occ for more creeps to port in.


    Dunno about minis, I rarely see them anymore on Ark, since they seem to get insta ganked in a couple seconds. Pretty much just heavy classes now since they have enough moral to last 30 seconds of fight.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/082070000000d6cff/01002/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  5. #255
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    Seeing as how HoT's currently function under an all-or-nothing critical rate, I assume once this issue gets fixed we'll see a more reasonably balanced class. However, they could certainly be tuned down to a more reasonable level.

  6. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by douglasburns View Post
    The main problem, as I see it, is defilers can just stand there and heal, and never die. it takes 4-5 freeps now to overpower a good defiler's heals.
    Same could be said about a mini. Even before the update i was able to outheal 3+ freeps for a few minuts unless it was heavy cc/dots stacking.


    Quote Originally Posted by douglasburns View Post

    No one should be so overpowered (given equivilant ranks). 3 vs 1 should = dead to the solo. And they can (and often do) just sit there and self heal, and cry in occ for more creeps to port in.
    Its the first time since RoI (apart from 3 months in RoR) that ####ty defilers (r7 and below) are able to heal themself. I can somewhat agree that when its a 1v3 that the solo should die, but atleast he needs to have a chance to defend himself.

    Maybe its time to leave the lovely " Creeps arent paying costumers or freeps are the heros so they cant die " mentality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    Seeing as how HoT's currently function under an all-or-nothing critical rate, I assume once this issue gets fixed we'll see a more reasonably balanced class. However, they could certainly be tuned down to a more reasonable level.
    Even if they fix the HoT's all-or-nothing critical rate that wont change much. Hots have 4 and 6s cooldown (the no induction ones). Since most defilers just spam those HoT's, HoT's will tick 1-2 times before they are refreshed.


    edit: if they really want to tweak down the defiler, i would suggest to change the effect of fastlob
    Last edited by ulza; May 04 2014 at 06:36 PM.

  7. #257
    they dont crit all or nothing

  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulza View Post
    Same could be said about a mini. Even before the update i was able to outheal 3+ freeps for a few minuts unless it was heavy cc/dots stacking.
    Except people were able to successfully 1v1 minnies with consistency. I'd really equate that with poor play by them. That's not possible if you're fighting a defiler on live right now.

  9. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by ulza View Post
    Same could be said about a mini. Even before the update i was able to outheal 3+ freeps for a few minuts unless it was heavy cc/dots stacking.
    Similarly to what Untg99 said above, this only held true for good minstrels. And this is a very important fact.

    Any bad minstrel died quite quickly to above average wargs/reavers/BAs, hell, even a good spider could kill a bad minstrel. But take bad defilers in u13.... there's literally nothing to separate the bad ones from the good ones. You don't have to bother with CC against most freeps, just spam 1234 green buttons and let your reflect do the work. Bad minstrels could not both keep themselves alive and kill creeps at the same time.

    In addition, it simply takes far less mechanical skill to stay alive vs. 3+ freeps with a defiler now than it did back then for a minstrel to stay alive vs 3+ creeps.

    Just to be clear, I don't think that any class, creep or freep, should be able to easily outheal more than 1 person. This update failed in my opinion not because it fixed defilers as a viable healing option for creepside, but because it didn't fix the overall excessive healing problems of the moors itself.

  10. #260
    I see the "filers are OP" argument has died down a lot. Once you freeps get together and stun, mez, slow, daze, oathie and cc the heck out of everyone, you all-of-a-sudden find out who's really OP. The fact of the matter is that freeps still have OP CC. Creeps hardly have any at all. I think every freep class has a stun of some kind. A good mini can take on quite a few creeps. So I am enjoying the gameplay in the moors right now. GG and look forward to seeing my fellow Dwarrowdelfers out there.

  11. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordem_the_RK View Post
    I see the "filers are OP" argument has died down a lot. Once you freeps get together and stun, mez, slow, daze, oathie and cc the heck out of everyone, you all-of-a-sudden find out who's really OP. The fact of the matter is that freeps still have OP CC. Creeps hardly have any at all. I think every freep class has a stun of some kind. A good mini can take on quite a few creeps. So I am enjoying the gameplay in the moors right now. GG and look forward to seeing my fellow Dwarrowdelfers out there.
    pretty effectively missing the mark concerning most people's points in this thread.

    How many classes on either side don't have a stun of some kind, btw?

  12. #262
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    Hello all

    So refereshing to see all new/old peeps commenting on heals. No matter if they play creep or freep we all must come to conclusion that OP heals are bad for PVP. yet I can gather from these writings that only after U13 it has disturbed them. Like yellow cappies, minnies didn´t make them write about unbalance. Well, the tunnel vision of OP freeps must have made them content until they realize it is creeps enjoying of capable healers. All these threads are forgotten as soon as freeps will get their ezmode power. Then it will be about skills and stories of good players beating good players no matter the existing state of balance.

    I am happy that Turbin did make good healers for creeps.

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revontulet View Post
    So refereshing to see all new/old peeps commenting on heals. No matter if they play creep or freep we all must come to conclusion that OP heals are bad for PVP. yet I can gather from these writings that only after U13 it has disturbed them. Like yellow cappies, minnies didn´t make them write about unbalance. Well, the tunnel vision of OP freeps must have made them content until they realize it is creeps enjoying of capable healers. All these threads are forgotten as soon as freeps will get their ezmode power. Then it will be about skills and stories of good players beating good players no matter the existing state of balance.

    I am happy that Turbin did make good healers for creeps.
    Wrong. MANY freeps acknowledge freep healing (especially Minstrels) was out of line and extremely OP on these board over the last 6-8 months. Anyone that claims otherwise is using selective memory to feel better about the broken defiler.

    What I think most creep don't realize or choose to ignore was that pre-U13 "good" creep were holding their own against the vast majority of freeps. The same will probably be true for "good" freeps post U13. As I said before, bad creep are probably enjoying the PvP (just as bad freeps did). The good creeps ones have either flipped to freepside or gone on hiatus.
    Last edited by doug01; May 07 2014 at 10:33 AM.

  14. #264
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    Just some thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    Wrong. MANY freeps acknowledge freep healing (especially Minstrels) was out of line and extremely OP on these board over the last 6-8 months. Anyone that claims otherwise is using selective memory to feel better about the broken defiler.

    What I think most creep don't realize or choose to ignore was that pre-U13 "good" creep were holding their own against the vast majority of freeps. The same will probably be true for "good" freeps post U13. As I said before, bad creep are probably enjoying the PvP (just as bad freeps did). The good creeps ones have either flipped to freepside or gone on hiatus.
    Many = who? By the simple look at these Forums I must come to the conclusion that it was CREEPS who were sorry for OP heals. And it has not been a matter of the last 6-8 months. And it wasn´t even about only minnies. So many are times when freeps healed through their way around the Moors. Cappies, loremasters, minnies.

    Not even "flop" has raised rage here. To just name one single skill that was talked about. Oh yes that caused many to QQ but it never ended up to be "Thread".

    I just can´t find similar threads about freep heals. Is there? I know guardians got their own thread, but they were so over the top. Some time ago wardens got threads. You can´t even compare them to defilers.

    No, no it isn´t selective memory.

    If I had more time I would go through some threads to make you examples of freep attitude towards imbalance. The irony of all this that now you see freeps qqing abut imbalance.
    Last edited by Revontulet; May 07 2014 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Some additions

  15. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by Revontulet View Post
    Many = who? By the simple look at these Forums I must come to the conclusion that it was CREEPS who were sorry for OP heals. And it has not been a matter of the last 6-8 months. And it wasn´t even about only minnies. So many are times when freeps healed through their way around the Moors. Cappies, loremasters, minnies.

    Not even "flop" has raised rage here. To just name one single skill that was talked about. Oh yes that caused many to QQ but it never ended up to be "Thread".

    I just can´t find similar threads about freep heals. Is there? I know guardians got their own thread, but they were so over the top. Some time ago wardens got threads. You can´t even compare them to defilers.

    No, no it isn´t selective memory.

    If I had more time I would go through some threads to make you examples of freep attitude towards imbalance. The irony of all this that now you see freeps qqing abut imbalance.
    There actually is a thread largely dedicated to the brokenness of flop, not sure whether its in the pvp forums or minstrel, but its out there.

    Find me a thread where minstrel heals are called appropriate by anything remotely approaching a majority and I'll find you 10 that say the opposite.

    How many broken captain threads would you like to be linked? Same question for guards, burgs, and wardens.

    Comparing a defiler to a warden is a perfectly valid thing to do right now, actually. If anything defilers, like minstrels are far more game-breaking than wardens (or guards) due to their 'macro' effect on pvp, where warden's OPness is more confined.

  16. #266
    Whoever think defiler is near to Ok is imo a bad creep with litteraly no clues how pvp is working.

    All creeps who weren't doing bad U12 that i know have just either quitted the game, rerolled a freep or changed server for the more populated ones. This game isn't just fun anymore if you don't self-nerf hardly playing creepside.

    Optimal group of freeps are just too rare, where being optimal as a creep just require you to have the good corruptions, a non-6BA setup and at least 2 brain cells.

    The thing about flop is, as a creep, you never ever need to focus the mini first, if you have a good group you just go for squishy dps with no escape abilites first and burst them down (having for effect to reduce the dps your healers take which was a great deal as creeps), then once you farmed all the resed one, you just finish the "imba" mini and Y-capt.

  17. #267

    Defilers = OP

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordem_the_RK View Post
    I see the "filers are OP" argument has died down a lot. Once you freeps get together ...
    I'm/was a creepside only player with a r12 defiler as main (r10 pre healtag RoR), r10 ba and r8 wl / reaver. And I prefered the u12 defiler over the u13. It was much more challeging back then. I dont want to self-nerf myself nor do i want my enemies to self-nerf themself. Turbine went from broken defiler to broken defiler. Surpised me that they managed to break something that was already broken.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revontulet View Post
    I am happy that Turbin did make good healers for creeps.
    We already had them, they were called warleaders. Since pvmp isn't based on solo play.

    Defiler wasnt in such a bad spot back in u12 as people said. Heck my k/d went up from 18.4 to 18.9 between HD launch and u13 just from solo play. (i used my WL if i had to heal in craids) Only thing i had to do was adjust my playstyle a little. Ofcourse 1v1 was nearly impossible against any good freep but being able to heal yourself for 8+ minuts against the best champ and 6+ minuts against the best burg of the server in a 1v1 (Vilya) did make me feel better than all the defilers on my server. Too bad i ran out of power or i would have set up a better fight lol


    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    The good creeps ones have either flipped to freepside or gone on hiatus.
    I'll be back when all the FoTM Creeps are gone. And I'm sure I'll enjoy corpse jumping every single 1 of them!


    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    There actually is a thread largely dedicated to the brokenness of flop, not sure whether its in the pvp forums or minstrel, but its out there.

    Find me a thread where minstrel heals are called appropriate by anything remotely approaching a majority and I'll find you 10 that say the opposite.

    How many broken captain threads would you like to be linked? Same question for guards, burgs, and wardens.

    Comparing a defiler to a warden is a perfectly valid thing to do right now, actually. If anything defilers, like minstrels are far more game-breaking than wardens (or guards) due to their 'macro' effect on pvp, where warden's OPness is more confined.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gray View Post
    The thing about flop is, as a creep, you never ever need to focus the mini first, if you have a good group you just go for squishy dps with no escape abilites first and burst them down (having for effect to reduce the dps your healers take which was a great deal as creeps), then once you farmed all the resed one, you just finish the "imba" mini and Y-capt.

    Remember Song of Distraction back when npcs did damage? It sure was fun to see a fraid trying to set up a farm inside TA with all npcs under the effect of SoD. Mini's been op in the moors for the last 3 years. Ofcourse noone is going to complain about them anymore. Unlike Defiler, seeing this is the first buff since they allowed hots from different defilers to stack.

  18. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulza View Post
    Remember Song of Distraction back when npcs did damage? It sure was fun to see a fraid trying to set up a farm inside TA with all npcs under the effect of SoD. Mini's been op in the moors for the last 3 years. Ofcourse noone is going to complain about them anymore. Unlike Defiler, seeing this is the first buff since they allowed hots from different defilers to stack.
    That would be a great fix to not let defiler heals stack, NONE of them, but just let it be renewed and overwriten

  19. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by ulza View Post
    Ofcourse 1v1 was nearly impossible against any good freep but being able to heal yourself for 8+ minuts against the best champ and 6+ minuts against the best burg of the server in a 1v1 (Vilya) did make me feel better than all the defilers on my server. Too bad i ran out of power or i would have set up a better fight lol
    Shhh... you can't let anyone know that competent players were still able to perform well enough on defilers pre-u13...

  20. #270
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    Oi you know one thing that hasn't been discussed is how over-the top efficient defilers are at debuffing.

  21. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Oi you know one thing that hasn't been discussed is how over-the top efficient defilers are at debuffing.
    Well...

    These are the untraited versions:





    These traits modify some of the debuffs:





    And these are the traited versions:




    Discuss!

  22. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Exion_Blade View Post
    Well...

    <some pictures>

    Discuss!
    I'd say, only the fate and armour debuff are a bit over-the-top, blight as well, -75% inc healing is massive.
    For the rest it seems alright.

    So, reducing the fate debuff to -350 Fate, the armour debuff to -3.5k, and blight 40% (60% traited), and it'd be fine.

    That's my view on it.

  23. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcwen View Post
    I'd say, only the fate and armour debuff are a bit over-the-top, blight as well, -75% inc healing is massive.
    For the rest it seems alright.

    So, reducing the fate debuff to -350 Fate, the armour debuff to -3.5k, and blight 40% (60% traited), and it'd be fine.

    That's my view on it.
    There is nothing wrong with the -inc healing from blight. Dont be silly to stand in it.

    I do have to admit that the armour debuff is over the top.

    But lol at the reduce fate to -350, thats even worse than before the update

  24. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by ulza View Post
    There is nothing wrong with the -inc healing from blight. Dont be silly to stand in it.

    I do have to admit that the armour debuff is over the top.

    But lol at the reduce fate to -350, thats even worse than before the update
    Yeh, sure, don't be stupid to be stunned in it? Tactics count as well, or did nobody think of coordinating that with a spider? I stand with the opinion that -75% inc healing is a bit over the top, and it needs a slight reduction (60% is still a quite sizable debuff). In return it might get a little more reliable (larger area perhaps).
    -350 fate is half of the average expected fate, which I think is good enough.
    I think the tactical mastery debuff can be buffed a bit though, to -8k.
    Also, the tactical mitigation debuff can be buffed by 100% (so -1440 tactical mitigation), but only if it comes with a nerf to the armour debuff as well.

    EDIT: Tactical mastery debuff can be changed to -810 Will or the -8k TMastery, and the might debuff can be changed to a Physical Mastery debuff as well perhaps.
    Also note that before the update fate didn't give tactical mitigation, now it does, so a high fate debuff is more powerful.
    Last edited by Vulcwen; May 24 2014 at 03:36 PM.

  25. #275
    Couple things..

    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcwen View Post
    I'd say, only the fate and armour debuff are a bit over-the-top, blight as well, -75% inc healing is massive.

    So, reducing the fate debuff to -350 Fate, the armour debuff to -3.5k, and blight 40% (60% traited), and it'd be fine.
    1) I agree with the fate portion, the debuff can pretty much whipe out your entire fate stack so it needs to be nerfed back a bit.
    2) Armor debuffs arent as good anymore due to armor only providing 20% to non common mits (creepside damage used to be primarilly common damage).
    3) Blight is only -75% when u have Enhanced Blight traited, That's a r15 trait. The other thing is that its an Area of Effect skill, one you can move out of as opposed to a debuff that stays with you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Vulcwen View Post
    I think the tactical mastery debuff can be buffed a bit though, to -8k.
    It's hell on healing cappies to have might and tact mastry debuffed. I say revert it back to will because the power issues it caused no longer exist; will no longer affects power pool.
    Last edited by Exion_Blade; May 24 2014 at 02:50 PM.

 

 
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