Defilers = OP

[Mordem_the_RK]

lolololololol

lololol filers not op..point, set match. dummy.

[New_Requiem]

Plz keep inserver fighting in your respective server threads -----> (https://www.lotro.com/forums/forumdi...arrowdelf-PvMP)

making us look bad -.-

[Hamond]

and I was fulltime heals.

I filer in this kind of group has to do some dps.

Your statements don't make any sense, even when you ignore the terrible English. Your idea of being fulltime heals is also dpsing?

[Bond007]

filer in this kind of group has to do some dps.

Yes, I agree, a class who can heal as well as any freep healer should also be able to do respectable dps at the same time.

This is all for the greater good, and balance. Carry on.

[Shumzuda]

Yes, I agree, a class who can heal as well as any freep healer should also be able to do respectable dps at the same time.

This is all for the greater good, and balance. Carry on.

Freep healers can't do 'respectable dps' while healing...nice try

[spelunker]

Freep healers can't do 'respectable dps' while healing...nice try

I think your irony meter has been overloaded by the previous posts in the thread.

[Shumzuda]

I think your irony meter has been overloaded by the previous posts in the thread.

........Nonsense!

[Torqky]

I think they need to refine the way the -inc and +inc healing mechanics interact. Adding + incoming healing to battle promotions was a bandaid fix to bridge the gap of the healing imbalance of the moors in the past. Add the + incoming healing buff from battlefield promotion with the 15% from fungal spores and we got ourselves a balance issue. I believe the interaction of -inc and +inc healing is additive in nature.

Heres and example: Assume a base filer heal of 1000 on a target with 30% battlefield promotion + 15% fungal spores. Lets calculate the final result with and without a -50% inc healing from debuff.

I think the math is 1000 (1+.30+.15)= 1000(1.45)=1450 without a -50% healing debuff and 1000 (1+.30+.15-.50) = 1000(.95) = 950 with a -50% healing debuff. (1450-950)/1450 = .344 or 34.4% difference.

IMO, The math should calculate the overall number boosted by +inc healing and then reduce that number by a flat percent based on the debuff .
Using same example and proposed change: 1000 (1+.30+.15)= 1000(1.45)=1450 without a -50% healing debuff and (1000(1+.3+.15)).70 = (1450).70 = 725 with a -50% healing debuff. (1450-725)/1450 = .50 or 50% difference

The logic behind this is that most -inc healing debuffs don't stack but +inc healing buffs do stack. I think a 50% healing debuff should effectively diminish healing by 50%. By doing it additively, it has diminished returns in terms of effectiveness as the plus incoming healing gets higher (34.4% vs 50% in example above). Most -inc healing debuffs don't stack to prevent the -150% inc healing we saw in the past via wardens that caused defiler hots to do damage instead of heal. Therefore, it would make sense to take the highest -inc healing debuff and reduce it by a percentage considering healing is already over the top in the ettenmoors.


More related to the topic, defiler is supposed to be a proactive healer that actually takes skill. I could write an essay on how the kneejerk balance changes are so shortsighted that they do more harm than good. We all have been asking for counterplay for years. Here is a quick recap of the major changes we got recently:

Blue traited ministrels with 30 sec flop and AOE Boulster, 30k Yellow traited cappies (shield brother, in harms way, last stand, etc.), WL 1 min AOE in combat res, Guardian Shield wall almost uninteruptable, Spider reflect that reflects dots, and now we got defilers with next-to-nothing inductions, continuation of never ending power pools across all classes... Where is the counterplay?

Instead of increasing the healing numbers slightly, nerfing addle and other broken mechanics, turbine supercharged the defiler. This is a classic example of how turbine treats the symptoms instead of treating the problems causing the symptoms.

/End Rant

[Nouri]

Very good post, Torqky!

[Chris91]

Hmm now Defilers are equally OP as are Minstrels..nerf them both

And give us a few more options to get Mits at a cost (i.e. other stats being lower), not for free like before the Update. Then we might have the best PvP since Mirkwood/Enedwaith

[The_Black_Swordsman]

I think they need to refine the way the -inc and +inc healing mechanics interact. Adding + incoming healing to battle promotions was a bandaid fix to bridge the gap of the healing imbalance of the moors in the past. Add the + incoming healing buff from battlefield promotion with the 15% from fungal spores and we got ourselves a balance issue. I believe the interaction of -inc and +inc healing is additive in nature.

Heres and example: Assume a base filer heal of 1000 on a target with 30% battlefield promotion + 15% fungal spores. Lets calculate the final result with and without a -50% inc healing from debuff.

I think the math is 1000 (1+.30+.15)= 1000(1.45)=1450 without a -50% healing debuff and 1000 (1+.30+.15-.50) = 1000(.95) = 950 with a -50% healing debuff. (1450-950)/1450 = .344 or 34.4% difference.

IMO, The math should calculate the overall number boosted by +inc healing and then reduce that number by a flat percent based on the debuff .
Using same example and proposed change: 1000 (1+.30+.15)= 1000(1.45)=1450 without a -50% healing debuff and (1000(1+.3+.15)).70 = (1450).70 = 725 with a -50% healing debuff. (1450-725)/1450 = .50 or 50% difference

The logic behind this is that most -inc healing debuffs don't stack but +inc healing buffs do stack. I think a 50% healing debuff should effectively diminish healing by 50%. By doing it additively, it has diminished returns in terms of effectiveness as the plus incoming healing gets higher (34.4% vs 50% in example above). Most -inc healing debuffs don't stack to prevent the -150% inc healing we saw in the past via wardens that caused defiler hots to do damage instead of heal. Therefore, it would make sense to take the highest -inc healing debuff and reduce it by a percentage considering healing is already over the top in the ettenmoors.


More related to the topic, defiler is supposed to be a proactive healer that actually takes skill. I could write an essay on how the kneejerk balance changes are so shortsighted that they do more harm than good. We all have been asking for counterplay for years. Here is a quick recap of the major changes we got recently:

Blue traited ministrels with 30 sec flop and AOE Boulster, 30k Yellow traited cappies (shield brother, in harms way, last stand, etc.), WL 1 min AOE in combat res, Guardian Shield wall almost uninteruptable, Spider reflect that reflects dots, and now we got defilers with next-to-nothing inductions, continuation of never ending power pools across all classes... Where is the counterplay?

Instead of increasing the healing numbers slightly, nerfing addle and other broken mechanics, turbine supercharged the defiler. This is a classic example of how turbine treats the symptoms instead of treating the problems causing the symptoms.

/End Rant

So pretty much you are complaining about healing. Took you only till Defiler's to get OP to do so? Seem to me like someone who just wants to join the ban wagon instead of someone who actually wants good fights out there. Yes, healing is jacked at the moment but it's on both sides but the good thing is that fights are more fun than they have been in the recent past so personally I don't care. Before this update my Minstrel couldn't die out there. Before this update with a Lore Master spamming my WL with silence and a Burglar keeping addle on any Defiler's it was just a faceroll most the time. Not complaining just stating facts. I delt with it. This update didn't really solve the pre existing problems that the Moors had but it certainly has made it more "balanced" and gave greenies actual purpose in groups on both sides but Creep side especially. Fights that take forever to get kills are better than fights that takes 15 seconds. You obviously didn't PvMP back in the day.

"...defiler is supposed to be a proactive healer that actually takes skill." As with all healing classes in the game but doesn't mean they are all good. Almost all the Minstrels on DD fail beyond belief. There's only a couple good Rune Keepers that will actually heal. There are only 1-2 good War leaders and even less Defilers now. So you are complaining about scrub to half decent healers...sounds like a personal problem. A DPS problem at the very least. Instead of jumping into rage and walls of text on the forums where you try to use math to justify your beliefs maybe you should look in the mirror and to your side first because usually the problem is right there. Good players on any side will always do better than scrubs on the other even when outnumbered. From everything I have heard of you is that you were a trash Minstrel so I am not surprised at all that you chose not to blame yourself/your group for your failures. Just so you know Torqky, if you are called good by trash players maybe you should take that with a grain of salt.

[Jakreal]

Asylim or whatever the nub kin is, will fail. I admit, I had some rather squishy dps with me. but with my dream team that I usually have, (wulf, Don, Shap, Garth, Ras...) ya'll fall like you were nothing but the leaves beneath my feat.

so they fail yet 3 took you out ??? LOL!!!!! you had a defiler helping you and a wl there too against 3 FREEPS!?!?!?! (a mini healer,a cappy dps, a warden dps) LOOOLLL

Me being solo on tussin it took them 1 min 30 secs with 5 ,(belv(mini heals),ohpra(burg),vahnya(hunt ),xardas(cappy red),bo(guard)), to kill me...SOLO like NOONE but ME.

Are you kidding me akbalak? Go whine more on the forums please. Since you obviously succeed at qqing.

[Saenanthra]

My fellow dwarrowdelf creeps, let's take this conversation to our own server thread and stop derailing this thread please.

[Torqky]

So pretty much you are complaining about healing. Took you only till Defiler's to get OP to do so? Seem to me like someone who just wants to join the ban wagon instead of someone who actually wants good fights out there. Yes, healing is jacked at the moment but it's on both sides but the good thing is that fights are more fun than they have been in the recent past so personally I don't care. Before this update my Minstrel couldn't die out there. Before this update with a Lore Master spamming my WL with silence and a Burglar keeping addle on any Defiler's it was just a faceroll most the time. Not complaining just stating facts. I delt with it. This update didn't really solve the pre existing problems that the Moors had but it certainly has made it more "balanced" and gave greenies actual purpose in groups on both sides but Creep side especially. Fights that take forever to get kills are better than fights that takes 15 seconds. You obviously didn't PvMP back in the day.

"...defiler is supposed to be a proactive healer that actually takes skill." As with all healing classes in the game but doesn't mean they are all good. Almost all the Minstrels on DD fail beyond belief. There's only a couple good Rune Keepers that will actually heal. There are only 1-2 good War leaders and even less Defilers now. So you are complaining about scrub to half decent healers...sounds like a personal problem. A DPS problem at the very least. Instead of jumping into rage and walls of text on the forums where you try to use math to justify your beliefs maybe you should look in the mirror and to your side first because usually the problem is right there. Good players on any side will always do better than scrubs on the other even when outnumbered. From everything I have heard of you is that you were a trash Minstrel so I am not surprised at all that you chose not to blame yourself/your group for your failures. Just so you know Torqky, if you are called good by trash players maybe you should take that with a grain of salt.

Who is this guy? I feel special receiving all these insults from a person i dont even know. Ministrels are very OP. My keyboard has broken "w" and "e" keys, I havent updated some of my 75 and 85 gear, I have virtues in the single digits, I have 14k morale, and i still can beat 90% of creeps on this server mouseturning on my ministrel... I suggest you reread many of my posts calling for creeps to have more -inc healing debuffs as well as freep healing to be nerfed. You act like i am some sort of biased froob. When people were crying for reaver nerfs after 85 expansion, i was the one out there beating the high ranked ones with my 75 ministrel. I was able to beat the reavers because i was overpowered. It had nothing to do with my skill or ego. It was me just abusing the mechanics of my class and exposing how easy they were to kite at the time. I understand the culture of creeps being neglected. I have been asking for ministrel nerfs from day 1 and my posting history shows this.

Nobody cares about peoples' egos or server drama. We are all here to talk about defilers. There are 300 other threads asking for ministrel nerfs and i have posted in a lot of them. I dont know who you are or what your beef is, but leave the personal attacks out of this. Sorry for posting math to provide support for my argument instead of the "No you just fail, Zergling, HealStack Raidbaby" response that is codeword for i don't have anything substantive to say.

Back on topic, does anyone know if they nerfed the flies? The flies power steal/return seems really weak but i didn't check the numbers.

[Jakreal]

Tourqy/Turtlez....

1. I think the only - inc heal debuffs that dont stack is just hunter heartseeker. Resets all inc heal debuffs and you have to wait for it to expire to put others on it. (maybe thats just the only ive seen trouble with). Warden stacks with rk and captain just fine.

2. Guardian shield wall is easily interruptible.

3. Cappies who trait yellow are trolls and being less than usefull. You'll get through defilers much more easily with a red one.

4. Past warden -inc heal debuffs never made healing do damage. Made them absorb.

5. Your mini... beating 90% of creeps. Yea maybe with a lot of help. Or just against greenies. Even pre-u13... Especially what i have seen from your mini. (harmony two shot mini at gv).

6. You got rolled so many times you swapped over to reaver the other day.

7. Saying how someone is biased towards freeps after he said that minstrel was op...

8. You cant tell who someone is when their name is in their signature.

9. Flies are fine. Don't really even use mine and have no issues with power. The only defilers who do are the ones spamming their offensive skills along with healing.

Trying to figure out where all these facts are coming from but keep it up.

[Torqky]

Tourqy/Turtlez....

1. I think the only - inc heal debuffs that dont stack is just hunter heartseeker. Resets all inc heal debuffs and you have to wait for it to expire to put others on it. (maybe thats just the only ive seen trouble with). Warden stacks with rk and captain just fine.

2. Guardian shield wall is easily interruptible.

3. Cappies who trait yellow are trolls and being less than usefull. You'll get through defilers much more easily with a red one.

4. Past warden -inc heal debuffs never made healing do damage. Made them absorb.

5. Your mini... beating 90% of creeps. Yea maybe with a lot of help. Or just against greenies. Even pre-u13... Especially what i have seen from your mini. (harmony two shot mini at gv).

6. You got rolled so many times you swapped over to reaver the other day.

7. Saying how someone is biased towards freeps after he said that minstrel was op...

8. You cant tell who someone is when their name is in their signature.

9. Flies are fine. Don't really even use mine and have no issues with power. The only defilers who do are the ones spamming their offensive skills along with healing.

Trying to figure out where all these facts are coming from but keep it up.

1. The warden one does seem to stack but it appears to be the exception: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ealing-Debuffs
2. Last update the only thing that broke it on a consistent basis was flayer knockdown. My spider cc and most other ccs did not break it. It may have changed since then?
3. Agree 100%
4. Yes after the bug fix. A warden in the thread linked above describes the bug.
5. Pre-u13 i did win most 1v1s. I even beat one of the r13 reavers that are "untouchable". 90% of players arent very good and abusing cc/30sec flop/LOS you can win against baddies even with bad gear. The 90% isnt accounting for draws on healer matchups by the way. The reality is that people you consider fail, kind of do fail in a sense, but they are probably better than 90% of other players. There are alot of bad players out there. Therefore, i dont think the 90% figure is off. Just because i dont have stacked gear and get 3 shotted at rez camps by ba firing squads doesn't mean that it will translate at all to 1v1s.
6. False, i swapped over to talk to karoc, a friend i havent talked to in a long time. I was messing around. I went to my r7 reaver with no audacity to purchase an audacity point. You think it was a coincidence that 2dps classes were able to kill me with the 30 healers that were out on creepside? C'mon, you know better.
7. I play on both sides all the time and you know this. I guess i am missing your point here.
8. I dont know a snagglepuss. Maybe they play on an alt that i am unaware of.
9. Fair enough. I was asking because i haven't gotten the chance to play on my defiler yet since u13.

Now a summary of what is actually relevant to the topic from the thread i linked:

Adding that RK debuff and capi dont stack either. It seems that very few inc healing debuffs stack freepside.

150% is what it takes to nullify a r15 creep, which is why i chose the value. freeps require 130%, both sides have readily available ways to increase incoming healing values by healing classes so these values wouldn't nullify all sources of healing. The +inc healing attached to creep BFPs is a pretty poorly thought out addition to the BFP system to be frank, in which case a 110% cap on -inc healing debuffs would be better (since freeps are rarely able to itemize for more than about +10%)

I never said it should be limited to one side. DS should stack with blight and agonizing maul, just not multiple sources of the same debuff for either side.

The point is the moors is becoming a a massive healfest dryhump session and for me at least that makes the game suck. I could care less about dying, and I greatly value what a skilled healer brings to the table, but when there is no limitation on how many people can take part in a fight, and no limitation on which classes get involved, ridiculous overhealing becomes a gamebreaking problem. Allowing more potent useage of inc healing debuffs would be one viable way to reduce the craptastic turn group fights have taken in the moors. I'm fine with creepside getting more sources of inc heal debuffs as well, maybe -25% for 10-15s for WLs Black speech and BAs In your face (tied to traits)?

Have to add something, wardens 2x12.5% and grave wound stack, tested it on my WL yesterday with some freep fellows.

[ulza]

Back on topic, does anyone know if they nerfed the flies? The flies power steal/return seems really weak but i didn't check the numbers.

Apart from removing the induction time on the non enchanced version, nothing happened to them.

normal flies: drain 33 power
enhanced : 38 power

This numbers always been like that since they nerfed them

edit: they barely drain enough power to pay for the amount of power they cost

[Derek350]

The person who posted about minis healing over 20k hps and had the SS of them healing in a skirm raid.........heals will be a lot higher bc of healing each persons skirmisher pet........also they mini is in PVE gear and just standing still not haveing to run around or be attacked really........probably would be a lot different if they healed in the moors lol. Healing pve is not the same as healing in pvp. and Defilers are on par with healing imho.......they just are so tanky is what i find as a problem. Last weekend my friends R7 reaver and my R4 defiler on E was taking LC. We had the CG running around disarming us and a R12 LM R11 mini and R8 champ ran up and fought us. We had the CG on us the entire fight (and still flipped it afterwards lol) and we killed all 3 of them......they tried to focus my R4 defiler with 9 audacity.....ents, lightning, sticky gourd, champ spam attacking and using horn, w/e mini shout is, cry of the wizzards. i mean they definately tried to burst me down first, but i couldnt help but lol on Teamspeak bc i dropped maybe to 28k maybe for couple seconds. so we killed all 3, continued to kill CG, the LM and mini rode back down, killed them again lol, then finally flipped LC lol. oh yeah and first time they came down we had like 8 npcs on us besides the CG. again R7 reaver with i think my friend has 14 audacity he said and my 9 audacity R4defiler. the heals on defiler are ok, but they are a little too tanky imho.

[Hayden102]

just make creep mits less, problem solved

[BrekkaSrbenda]

just make creep mits less, problem solved

Just make creep morale pool same as freep ones, problem solved.
Same dmg, same heals, same morale.
My job here is done.
To betmobile!

[NoNameGamer]

Just make creep morale pool same as freep ones, problem solved.
Same dmg, same heals, same morale.

Same damage?

This is from my combat log from a burg on my warg (I edited out names) :
<burg> scored a critical hit with Coup De Grâce on <me> for 3,912 Beleriand damage to Morale.
<burg> scored a critical hit with Coup De Grâce on <me> for 4,175 Beleriand damage to Morale.
<burg> scored a devastating hit with Coup De Grâce on <me> for 6,544 Beleriand damage to Morale.

That's just one skill attack (the skill does a triple hit, so you see 3 hits there) for 15k damage total in less than 1/2 a sec. I can safely say my warg has never hit a freep for 15k in less than 1/2 a sec!

[Selebrimbor]

Same damage?

This is from my combat log from a burg on my warg (I edited out names) :
<burg> scored a critical hit with Coup De Grâce on <me> for 3,912 Beleriand damage to Morale.
<burg> scored a critical hit with Coup De Grâce on <me> for 4,175 Beleriand damage to Morale.
<burg> scored a devastating hit with Coup De Grâce on <me> for 6,544 Beleriand damage to Morale.

That's one just skill attack (the skill does a triple hit, so you see 3 hits there) for 15k damage total in less than 1/2 a sec. I can safely say my warg has never hit a freep for 15k in less than 1/2 a sec!

^This. My warg hits hard, but it sure isn't the same damage as Freeps are putting out. We do not have the same damage output.

[Moors-Battlemaster]

^This. My warg hits hard, but it sure isn't the same damage as Freeps are putting out. We do not have the same damage output.

Wargs have insanely good DPS atm with the right rotation, CDG is only a burst.

[Selebrimbor]

Wargs have insanely good DPS atm with the right rotation, CDG is only a burst.

Ah, true. I had forgotten.

[NoNameGamer]

CDG is only a burst.

Yes that's just one single skill attack. That's why creeps have higher hp atm, otherwise they'd be one-shotted with damage like that. I think the dev we have right now is doing a pretty good job and knows what he's doing.