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  1. #1
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    Freepside is OP?

    All seriousness, everytime I talk with Creeps on E, they'll swear till they're blue in the face that Freepside is indeed OP.

    /Discuss.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    All seriousness, everytime I talk with Creeps on E, they'll swear till they're blue in the face that Freepside is indeed OP.

    /Discuss.
    Sounds a lot like how you swore till you were blue in the face creepside was OP pre-U13.
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    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Sounds a lot like how you swore till you were blue in the face creepside was OP pre-U13.
    My fault for taking you off ignore to read another moronic post from you.
    Took team work to kill good groups in RoR, and far easier in HD... guess that means Creepside got harder in your baffling logic.
    Freeps start in RoR with over 40% mits, but in HD base of 30%...oh ye thats harder to kill, not easier...derpy derp.

  4. #4
    My 18% FW-OC mits and 24% tactical mits wish they were at base 30%.
    Ahrean ~ Wabby ~ Licht ~ Riddermark.
    Misternoodle ~ Melondeau ~ Maex ~ Brandywine.
    Evna ~ Avely ~ Yleva ~ Meneldor
    Clownfish ~ Dictator ~ Batadainder (or something like that) ~ Squirter ~ Crickhollow

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    My fault for taking you off ignore to read another moronic post from you.
    Took team work to kill good groups in RoR, and far easier in HD... guess that means Creepside got harder in your baffling logic.
    Freeps start in RoR with over 40% mits, but in HD base of 30%...oh ye thats harder to kill, not easier...derpy derp.
    Oh sweet, does this mean we get an actual conversation now, rather than you 'ignoring me' then asking everyone else what I say so you can reply anyway?

    If you want to do a point by point comparison of HD release till U13 to post-U10 till HD, we can certainly do that as the above is certainly filled with 'baffling logic'. What I actually posted however, was that you were complaining BEFORE U13 that creeps had the advantage in group fights, on a number of occasions. Lets see some of that famous Ocrak logic explain to me how this was the case.

    How are those champ auto-attacks working for you?
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    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Oh sweet, does this mean we get an actual conversation now, rather than you 'ignoring me' then asking everyone else what I say so you can reply anyway?

    If you want to do a point by point comparison of HD release till U13 to post-U10 till HD, we can certainly do that as the above is certainly filled with 'baffling logic'. What I actually posted however, was that you were complaining BEFORE U13 that creeps had the advantage in group fights, on a number of occasions. Lets see some of that famous Ocrak logic explain to me how this was the case.

    How are those champ auto-attacks working for you?
    In RoR Freeps gear swapped, it gave a huge advantage, but after HD they couldnt. Your logic says that Freeps become stronger? Yet I say Creepside became easier for that reason and many more, such as Rks healing and LM SI.

    Minis at HD and now are so easy to kill its a joke. But I guess it means its actually harder in your backwards mind.

    Btw, hows the auto attacks treating you, missing that free damage as usual huh. Try options setup 101.

  7. #7
    Its worth mentioning that the OP thought freepside was underpowered pre U13, despite the consensus being the latter. Even more laughable when you actually see the OP partake in small group pvp.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    Its worth mentioning that the OP thought freepside was underpowered pre U13, despite the consensus being the latter. Even more laughable when you actually see the OP partake in small group pvp.
    Guess noone apart from my groups could actually play Lotro and kill top Freeps in RoR...damn am I really that good, or are Apex and ANV that bad? Hmmm.

    Check out how laughable I am: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-BP...6MUh0GX8Iqawew

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    damn am I really that good?
    When you struggle at a task that majority of the population succeed at, then you are what the typical person calls mediocre. Apply this to your inability to succeed pre U13 to arrive at your answer.

  10. #10
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    Are you guys really going to turn this into another needless monkey #### throwing competition? #### I thought you were all more civil than this.

    Really, really pathetic.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Are you guys really going to turn this into another needless monkey #### throwing competition? #### I thought you were all more civil than this.

    Really, really pathetic.

    I agree, first DD qq, now E qq. Just go back to your server specifiek pvp forums or talk #### in game (which gives as much result as here).
    Retired from lotro since june '14. Currently kicking other noobs on gw2.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ulza View Post
    I agree, first DD qq, now E qq. Just go back to your server specifiek pvp forums or talk #### in game (which gives as much result as here).
    Problem boils down to ridiculous vendetta's that occurred when said deviants were on the same server.

    Apparently every chance to cut at the knee's is a chance well taken.

    GG my fellows

  13. #13
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    This is interesting. What else is going on on E that would be of interest to us?

  14. #14
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    This thread needs to stay here. The idiocracy on E needs to be known. The OP speaks the truth here. And while E creeps run around with no mercy as their motto, they don't realize that 75% of the members in the groups that give them the most issues, are made of full time creeps looking for a challenge, instead of mindless zerging with fotm ezbutton classes.
    Lebronjames

  15. #15
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    I think in Orak's case of how with the start of HD the swing of the pendulum was beginning to go in favor of creepside. Freeps took hits to certain classes as far as healing and survivability goes. Used to be there was more coordination from creeps required before HD when the Lore Masters could keep SI up on all of the healers to prevent immediate deaths that come from being locked down with CC. With that removal and the limitations of breaking CC in a short amount of time (from the skill, the pot, the brand, and the store brand) a healer on freepside now experiences a subsequent stun + kill combination from creeps which has been a reliant strategy over the years. I remember when roots could remove stun immunity and when I had a LM back then I watched as well for when healers were knocked down so I could bring them back up - but of course the damage was much slower then.

    Also at the start of HD there was the audacity bug on creepside which allowed certain classes and players to take less damage. There were also nerfs to melee DPS. U12 worked to rectify and gave freeps a buff that unfortunately encouraged them to keep the map blue and Grams camps on most servers. Freep mitigations were much higher but due to Turbine lacking the proper coding to make OC/FW pass through that table they had to add the reduced damage with the audacity set (which further discouraged new freeps from coming out). Freeps had the upper hand in damage but their survivability with coordinated freep damage was still low and still in that time melee DPS was lacking prior to U13.1.


  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    In RoR Freeps gear swapped, it gave a huge advantage, but after HD they couldnt. Your logic says that Freeps become stronger? Yet I say Creepside became easier for that reason and many more, such as Rks healing and LM SI.

    Minis at HD and now are so easy to kill its a joke. But I guess it means its actually harder in your backwards mind.

    Btw, hows the auto attacks treating you, missing that free damage as usual huh. Try options setup 101.
    Kindly show me where I said freeps became stronger relative to creeps in HD.

    As for creepside getting easier as you claim, freeps lost armour swaps (lets be honest here, do you think even 20% of the freepside population ran swaps? Do you think half of the players in 'elite' pvp groups ran swaps?), rk healing was toned down, and LM SI was nerfed to only effectively protect a single target. On the flipside, freepside gained a number of buffs, including SotD's rediculous cooldown change, minstrel AoE bolster courage on a meaningless cooldown, massive new burst damage sources for hunters, burglars, and LMs. To top these freepside changes, which were at worst a mixed bag, and in a group environment more likely a mild boost, defiler healing remained relatively static from RoR to HD, despite morale pools doubling, and incoming damage rates on creeps also roughly doubling. Where the relative power of freepside stood in early HD relative to the majority of RoR absolutely changed, but to say things were meaningfully harder just tells me you struggled to adapt to the new conditions on the ground more than anything else.

    Mini's in HD are only easy to kill if their group is a joke, if your group's minstrels struggle to stay alive consistently in roughly even numbered fights (we are talking about balance, right?) I'd take a long look at your strategies for keeping them alive.



    As for the auto-attacks:
    For those who aren't familiar with the OP: he is advocating for turning off the setting that allows ranged auto-attacks to be used while on the move (and subsequently suffer from a massive miss chance). He believes that proper melee combat should initiate with an auto-attack before a regular skill is used, a player should hesitate between skill usage so that there is 'time' for an auto-attack to fire in between every regular skill, and that skills like brutal and ferocious strikes will fire an auto-attack in the middle of their animation if you weapon swap. Well played Ocrak, I didn't think you had it in you to bring up that old conversation again. Glad to see you still haven't grasped the implications of the combat changes instituted in MoM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Sounds a lot like how you swore till you were blue in the face creepside was OP pre-U13.
    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    Took team work to kill good groups in RoR, and far easier in HD...
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    Its worth mentioning that the OP thought freepside was underpowered pre U13, despite the consensus being the latter. Even more laughable when you actually see the OP partake in small group pvp.
    Moors consensus has never meant ####. Majority of players have always copycat the opinions of those they perceive as reputable sources for a variety of different reasons. Might as well be advertisement.

    Considering that 90% of people in the world are just plain bad critical thinkers, making an argument based on the consensus of knowledge is nothing short of argumentum ad populum.


    As far as Occa himself goes, I find it absolutely ridiculous that anything he says or puts forward is automatically dismissed or ridiculed due to an ad hominem fallacy.

    How stupid do you guys want to get?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    ...



    Moors consensus has never meant ####. Majority of players have always copycat the opinions of those they perceive as reputable sources for a variety of different reasons. Might as well be advertisement.

    Considering that 90% of people in the world are just plain bad critical thinkers, making an argument based on the consensus of knowledge is nothing short of argumentum ad populum.
    Majority of players experience PVP for themselves and make decisions for themselves about balance. The minority that comprehend PVP generally have the same consensus because they share an understanding of PVP. Its nice that Orak has a friend to defend his idiocy, but to give some of his outlandish statements validity will put you in that 90% of bad thinkers out there.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    ...



    Moors consensus has never meant ####. Majority of players have always copycat the opinions of those they perceive as reputable sources for a variety of different reasons. Might as well be advertisement.

    Considering that 90% of people in the world are just plain bad critical thinkers, making an argument based on the consensus of knowledge is nothing short of argumentum ad populum.


    As far as Occa himself goes, I find it absolutely ridiculous that anything he says or puts forward is automatically dismissed or ridiculed due to an ad hominem fallacy.

    How stupid do you guys want to get?
    On the contrary, I've offered well thought out, honest, and well supported arguments to pretty much every point he's made that goes counter to things I hold opposition to since we started this little 'feud' on the forums. His response to these responses is typically some form of burying ones head in the sand and then repeating some tired mantra about being the only one in the history of lotro who has achieved the things he has. Man its too bad our melee only LM vs warg conversation was deleted, that was a treasure trove of examples about this.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    Its nice that Orak has a friend to defend his idiocy, but to give some of his outlandish statements validity will put you in that 90% of bad thinkers out there.
    Outlandish statements as communicated via the forums or OOC rants I suppose? I do guess that justifies Ad hominem as a valid logical position. Sorry for my out of line commentary of popular logical fallacies.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    On the contrary, I've offered well thought out, honest, and well supported arguments to pretty much every point he's made that goes counter to things I hold opposition to. His response to these responses is typically some form of burying ones head in the sand and then repeating some tired mantra about being the only one in the history of lotro who has achieved the things he has. Man its too bad our melee only LM vs warg conversation was deleted, that was a treasure trove of examples about this.
    You know I actually like Occa, I really do. From my observations actually watching him play, I think he's a good player. I love the fact that he's always made seemingly unorthodox applications of mechanics, especially when in the end they have some sort of plausible justification, even if it is not in the meta.
    One thing I can't stand about him is/has been his general forum activity. I think one thing we probably don't appreciate about each other to a high(?? Probably wrong wording here!) degree is our posting styles on these boards. More often than not I completely lose track of where he's going or what his posting intentions are. It's almost as if this forum for him is a separate extension of the ettenmoors itself.

    It is however, another thing to actually sit in a vent and have a chat with him. I find him quite reasonable in a more personal setting and have generally enjoyed our conversations. Where on the forums or in general OOC I may have perceived nonsensical rants that may not have appealed to my particular self-centred perspective, by having sat with him in a TS/Ventrilo setting my view and general attitude towards him and his position has changed significantly.
    I've come to appreciate his perspective a lot more.

    I say all of this having a good chunk of my Kin extending a parallel vendetta towards Occa themselves.
    I take note that Galuf, to no avail would criticise these kinmates (and me during the times I jumped on the bandwagon) and even appealed to Occa on more than one occasion in several topics/attitudes of debate whether or not anyone would care to recognise it.


    And yeah, I'm saying this knowing Occa's going to read it. My intent is absolutely not a demeaning or discriminatory one, but an honest one. For what it's worth I still like him and respect him as I have previously described.



    My top end critique is that I find it absolutely ridiculous that there's always a contest about how much piss you guys can all shove down each others throats.
    Last edited by Untg99; May 20 2014 at 03:33 PM.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Ad hominem
    You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. People have presented well thought arguments countering his statements in various threads to no avail; and my mentioning his prior stance on side balance is very relevant to this thread. Indicative that misperception of balance ironically happened and is still happening on his part.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means. People have presented well thought arguments countering his statements in various threads to no avail; and my mentioning his prior stance on side balance is very relevant to this thread. Indicative that misperception of balance ironically happened and is still happening on his part.
    I do know what it means. And even if it's not the basis of the original #### contest, whether in-game or out it gets incorporated pretty damn fast.

    Opinion of balance is always taken from a perspective that is subject to the angle of the moors a person experiences.
    Based on my experience (Maybe not the greatest means of knowledge), spending time with Occa, and knowing the relative positions of a lot of his biggest fans, I'd say a fair portion of mismatch in debates comes from incompatible perspectives that have been taken at different angles.
    Specifically this doesn't mean anyone is necessarily 100% wrong, but because it can be akin to different snapshots of the same picture, it can lead to mismatched consensus when making generalisations about the overall picture.

    Regardless of whether he is totally off or whatever eminent problem may actually be occurring, both sides of all of you guys (Occa, Deso, Arbitter, Kidefence, etc etc etc etc) need to take a clean slate once in awhile. It's ####ing disgraceful.


    Now get on with the damn thread.
    Last edited by Untg99; May 20 2014 at 03:22 PM.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sampras View Post
    Majority of players experience PVP for themselves and make decisions for themselves about balance. The minority that comprehend PVP generally have the same consensus because they share an understanding of PVP. Its nice that Orak has a friend to defend his idiocy, but to give some of his outlandish statements validity will put you in that 90% of bad thinkers out there.
    I call BS on this. The majority of players are mindless drones, that can only function if 1) They are winning 2) If a target assist is up 3) They have switched to their ezmode toons and finally 4) They have vastly superior numbers.

    They are having fun and all is good when they have no resistance. The drones are easily identifiable and their true character shows, when the #### hits the fan and they encounter a challenge and die a few times then 1) They are butthurt and not having fun, 2) Instead of changing from their ezmode toons and trying to counter, they take a break or log 3) They qq about macro'ing players or exploits, etc to give themselves a reason for losing.

    1) Yes, my main is a creep.
    2) I have leveled a burg to 95 since u13 and rarely play creepside.
    3) When I do log creepside it is to hang with peeps that i like personally.
    4) When freeping 80% of the members in our groups have rarely played creepside since u13 for challenging and thoughtful pvp.
    5) When we wipe, we try to adjust but keep on trucking.
    6) If you don't care, no worries. Yolo
    Lebronjames

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    All seriousness, everytime I talk with Creeps on E, they'll swear till they're blue in the face that Freepside is indeed OP.

    /Discuss.
    Friends of the Monster Play forums

    Do not waste time with Ocrack's drug-addled mind

    His brain is gone

    "There is alot we can hold Turbine's feet to the fire for ; but the state of pvmp isn't one of them." - Quote from a 2014 Players Council Member

  25. #25
    Uh, judge, can I speak up here?

    Pretty sure this thread was headed nowhere from the very start. Look at the first post. What point is he trying to make? What is he trying to argue constructively?

    I've actually never seen Orak make one good point on these forums yet. The first time I commented on one of his posts, I came in with a respectful attitude because I questioned whether what he was presenting as "the best way to play a hunter 24/7" was in fact, really a viable way to play hunter in a non-1v1 situation. Instead of explaining why his way was the best, or how it could overcome non-1v1 situations, he chose to simply bluster on about how bad I and others must be at our classes if we didn't agree with him.

    Now, I find that attitude again and again in his posts, and, respectfully, anyone who defends that attitude is either skewed in their reasoning or not opening their eyes. Be stubborn in posts, that's fine, I'm stubborn a lot of the time. Be blunt in posts, that's fine, I'm blunt a lot of the time. Be long-winded in posts, that's totally fine, I do that ALL the time. But don't expect me to care about troll posts that are simply made to blow off steam or portray himself as the deity of the moors, because that's certainly what his literally always seem to be like.


    Feel free to pass this entirely on to Orak, because he has me on "ignore," so he can carefully pick and choose what he'd like to respond to and what he'd like to safely bypass.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

 

 
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