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Thread: Why not?

  1. #1

    Why not?

    >>PvMP: Why add catapults to the Ettenmoors? Why not? Siege weapons!

    Oof, this is the only mention of PvP in the new producer letter? Obviously can't get into everything in a broad overview producer's letter, but given the history of PvP's mistreatment this isn't very inspiring. In terms of infamous "why not?"s, it will never match Bluto from Animal House, but probably should have gone a different direction in the letter? Maybe "we just made significant rebalancing changes and look forward to continuing that effort" ... or "continue to work hard to provide a great gaming experience to our dedicated pvp community"... but instead we get "why not?"

  2. #2
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    How about reducing the lag?!

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Sniz View Post
    >>PvMP: Why add catapults to the Ettenmoors? Why not? Siege weapons!

    Oof, this is the only mention of PvP in the new producer letter? Obviously can't get into everything in a broad overview producer's letter, but given the history of PvP's mistreatment this isn't very inspiring. In terms of infamous "why not?"s, it will never match Bluto from Animal House, but probably should have gone a different direction in the letter? Maybe "we just made significant rebalancing changes and look forward to continuing that effort" ... or "continue to work hard to provide a great gaming experience to our dedicated pvp community"... but instead we get "why not?"

    Maybe the catapults will be at GV and Grams, to prevent camping LOL. But I agree, why? I have not heard one freep or creep asking for these catapults in the moors.

  4. #4
    It would be nice to see the LOTRO team come up with an original idea instead of copying whatever the current MMO of the month <cough>ESO<cough> is doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by q945 View Post
    It would be nice to see the LOTRO team come up with an original idea instead of copying whatever the current MMO of the month <cough>ESO<cough> is doing.
    Exactly. I agree 100%.

  6. #6
    Copying ESO = fail...

    The head Dev for ESO, Matt Firor was one of the original DAOC devs. ESO copied DAOC for many of its PvP related items. Suprised? I think not...

    DAOC's open world PvP is still light years of everything that is out there right now, and the game is 13 years old.

  7. #7
    It would be very funny to see wargs and spiders using catapults.. lol

    Instead of giving a new pvp map they are planning laughable changes

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sniz View Post
    >>PvMP: Why add catapults to the Ettenmoors? Why not? Siege weapons!

    Oof, this is the only mention of PvP in the new producer letter? Obviously can't get into everything in a broad overview producer's letter, but given the history of PvP's mistreatment this isn't very inspiring. In terms of infamous "why not?"s, it will never match Bluto from Animal House, but probably should have gone a different direction in the letter? Maybe "we just made significant rebalancing changes and look forward to continuing that effort" ... or "continue to work hard to provide a great gaming experience to our dedicated pvp community"... but instead we get "why not?"
    Maybe because he and the devs just a week or two ago spent a great deal of time talking about the direction of PvMP.

    Quote Originally Posted by RGilthanas View Post
    How about reducing the lag?!
    Lag is primarily client-side, due to people using settings too high for what their computers can handle based on the load of having 50 or 60 in-combat characters onscreen at once.

    Quote Originally Posted by q945 View Post
    It would be nice to see the LOTRO team come up with an original idea instead of copying whatever the current MMO of the month <cough>ESO<cough> is doing.
    ESO did not invent siege weaponry, nor are they the first to use it in a PvP setting. If the tech that was created for Big Battles has potential to be used elsewhere, awesome. PvP seems an obvious and potentially fun place for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Makiveli2084 View Post
    I have not heard one freep or creep asking for these catapults in the moors.
    Not every change to the game needs to be a response to a demand from players. The devs can and should take their own initiative from time to time.

    I personally am in favour of at least giving it a try. It has potential to bring more fun/challenge to the Moors, and the potential to add a new layer of strategy that could be pretty exciting. Better than same-old same-old.

    Quote Originally Posted by jivius View Post
    Instead of giving a new pvp map they are planning laughable changes
    A new map is crazy talk. Why spread PvP action thinner than it already is? If anything, the current map is already too big. I say revamp the one we do have and add more challenge to it.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Lag is primarily client-side, due to people using settings too high for what their computers can handle based on the load of having 50 or 60 in-combat characters onscreen at once.
    Lag isn't the right word. Lag is network-related. The slideshow that people in the moors get is a combination of lag and a very bad graphics engine causing a massive drop in framerate. This has been problematic since day 1 for LOTRO. They should have hired someone to analyze the game engine they're using for bottlenecks and optimize wherever possible to address client-side problems with framerate, and put someone to work on the lag issues server-side that causes the amount of network traffic to go through the roof. There are plenty of other much newer games that do no suffer anywhere near the issues that has plagued this game, especially when the newer games are in order of magnitudes more demanding on PCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    ESO did not invent siege weaponry, nor are they the first to use it in a PvP setting. If the tech that was created for Big Battles has potential to be used elsewhere, awesome. PvP seems an obvious and potentially fun place for it.
    Fun place or not, there are other things which should have way higher priority. They rarely take on the grunt work which needs to be fixed, and instead throw new features out there which will invariably be broken, and perpetuate the problem of never fixing bugs that are years old.

    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Not every change to the game needs to be a response to a demand from players. The devs can and should take their own initiative from time to time. I personally am in favour of at least giving it a try. It has potential to bring more fun/challenge to the Moors, and the potential to add a new layer of strategy that could be pretty exciting. Better than same-old same-old.
    The "same-old same-old" is not working properly. Devs ignoring basic bug fixes in favor of excrement polishing has been a source of ongoing frustration for those who want to play the game and not be hindered by a plethora of problems.

    You sound like you're way too enamored of anything the people running LOTRO does, and are nothing more than a sycophant who wants to throw fellow players under the bus to gain favor from LOTRO staff. What motivates you to do this is beyond me. They are providing a service and are failing in what they're offering. Your disposition is akin to someone who has a cell phone with next to zero bars at best anywhere you go and your calls get dropped frequently, but you're OK with that because the screen looks so pretty. Then you try to downplay other people's dissatisfaction with their service, and attempt to point out that your screen is wonderful so everything is OK.

    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    A new map is crazy talk. Why spread PvP action thinner than it already is? If anything, the current map is already too big. I say revamp the one we do have and add more challenge to it.
    I agree with this. There is zero need for a new map. They can't even get the one that's been in place for approaching a decade now working properly.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Lag is primarily client-side, due to people using settings too high for what their computers can handle based on the load of having 50 or 60 in-combat characters onscreen at once.
    While some of what you say is slightly true, if its all client side, why does a pve character in the trollshaws get reduced awareness and horrid lag spikes when major RvR action is going on in the 'moors? Why do major PvP events crash entire servers, or cause many people not even in the 'moors to be booted from the game?

    Not every change to the game needs to be a response to a demand from players. The devs can and should take their own initiative from time to time.

    I personally am in favour of at least giving it a try. It has potential to bring more fun/challenge to the Moors, and the potential to add a new layer of strategy that could be pretty exciting. Better than same-old same-old.
    Not every change does need to come from the players, but when a majority of players respond that they aren't interested in a given change, is a zone that gets change quite sparsely, its not going to go over too well.


    A new map is crazy talk. Why spread PvP action thinner than it already is? If anything, the current map is already too big. I say revamp the one we do have and add more challenge to it.
    You assume that they would add a new map AND keep the old one. I think most people would be quite willing to give up the current Ettenmoors map for a quality replacement at this point. Personally there are a laundry list of issues I'd like to see dealt with before a new map, but if they add one thats fine too, could spice things up a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Maybe because he and the devs just a week or two ago spent a great deal of time talking about the direction of PvMP.



    Lag is primarily client-side, due to people using settings too high for what their computers can handle based on the load of having 50 or 60 in-combat characters onscreen at once.



    ESO did not invent siege weaponry, nor are they the first to use it in a PvP setting. If the tech that was created for Big Battles has potential to be used elsewhere, awesome. PvP seems an obvious and potentially fun place for it.



    Not every change to the game needs to be a response to a demand from players. The devs can and should take their own initiative from time to time.

    I personally am in favour of at least giving it a try. It has potential to bring more fun/challenge to the Moors, and the potential to add a new layer of strategy that could be pretty exciting. Better than same-old same-old.


    A new map is crazy talk. Why spread PvP action thinner than it already is? If anything, the current map is already too big. I say revamp the one we do have and add more challenge to it.
    Dude do you even go to the ettens?

    The current map is far from too big.

    And did you just say that lag is client side -.- Regardless of what settings you have, there is always game changing lag especially when you are in a RvR
    scenario. And also ,You can be hundreds of metres away from a large amount of players none may appear on-screen, yet still there will be huge amounts of lag. That statement about how many characters on screen at once is not the issue.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    While some of what you say is slightly true, if its all client side, why does a pve character in the trollshaws get reduced awareness and horrid lag spikes when major RvR action is going on in the 'moors? Why do major PvP events crash entire servers, or cause many people not even in the 'moors to be booted from the game?
    I have never heard of, nor have I ever experienced, lag spikes in the Trollshaws during heavy Moors action times. I've never seen people booted from the game during heavy action either. The Moors is an instanced zone, so it shouldn't impact the LotRO landscape.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Not every change does need to come from the players, but when a majority of players respond that they aren't interested in a given change, is a zone that gets change quite sparsely, its not going to go over too well.
    That remains to be seen if/when the changes are implemented, but if they are done intelligently it could add a huge amount of fun/challenge. It will certainly be interesting to see what happens with this.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    You assume that they would add a new map AND keep the old one. I think most people would be quite willing to give up the current Ettenmoors map for a quality replacement at this point. Personally there are a laundry list of issues I'd like to see dealt with before a new map, but if they add one thats fine too, could spice things up a bit.
    I don't see them entirely removing the current map and building a new one, but it could happen. What I think is more likely is they'll add a new area that has a slightly different PvMP style to it, that has certain limitations that will hopefully prevent at least some of the problem of spreading thin. Maybe a raid that can be run when there are enough players on each side, something like that. This is the type of thing they were discussing in that recent dev Q&A - adding something not replacing the current map.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celembar View Post
    Dude do you even go to the ettens?

    The current map is far from too big.
    On most days the action is spread pretty thin, but I admit a lot depends on the server. Hopefully scaling and Moors passes will improve that. My point being, a second map will only spread things even more thin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celembar View Post
    And did you just say that lag is client side -.- Regardless of what settings you have, there is always game changing lag especially when you are in a RvR
    scenario. And also ,You can be hundreds of metres away from a large amount of players none may appear on-screen, yet still there will be huge amounts of lag. That statement about how many characters on screen at once is not the issue.
    A great deal of what players experience as "lag" is just their system being overloaded. Now, I never said "all" I said primarily - as in, at the core if a system has a lot to process and it's not particularly beefy, then it's going to struggle. People with better systems and lower settings experience smoother play in the Moors, which would tend to support what I'm saying. Now, that's not to say the ageing engine and systems behind the Moors don't cause a lot of that load, it's likely they do, but we have the engine and the systems we have. Not sure there's much of a way around that. It would be great if the Moors could be rebuilt entirely with performance in mind, but I don't really see that happening.
    Last edited by frickinmuck; Apr 14 2014 at 01:17 PM.

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    Like I was told a couple of months ago when catapults were first mentioned, hundreds of threads have been started over the last few years demanding catapults.

    Odd that only a couple of people have seen all these threads, but there ya go. There is a massive pent up demand for siege weapons that only a few people and the devs are aware of.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    I have never heard of, nor have I ever experienced, lag spikes in the Trollshaws during heavy Moors action times. I've never seen people booted from the game during heavy action either. The Moors is an instanced zone, so it shouldn't impact the LotRO landscape.
    Well I have, on a number of occasions. A prominent Moors raiding kin on BW even has a bit of a running joke where they hold a moment of silence for people running pve content when massive Moors raids start causing 10s delays on a single skill from firing for EVERYONE IN THE MOORS, and the server starts hitching and freezing for people way outside of the moors.



    That remains to be seen if/when the changes are implemented, but if they are done intelligently it could add a huge amount of fun/challenge. It will certainly be interesting to see what happens with this.
    and thats a lot of ifs for a portion of the game that has probably seen a higher rate of broken promises and unfinished updates than any other aspect of LOTRO.


    On most days the action is spread pretty thin, but I admit a lot depends on the server. Hopefully scaling and Moors passes will improve that. My point being, a second map will only spread things even more thin.
    You were in BETA for U13, did you actually look at the scaling feature? Current moors players will use this feature when they're looking to goof around in pvp, and people who want to try out the region for the first time via a scaled freep will be essentially kicked in the teeth for their troubles. This feature is way too raw for release and is going to cause more harm than good for the audience its actually targeted at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    and thats a lot of ifs for a portion of the game that has probably seen a higher rate of broken promises and unfinished updates than any other aspect of LOTRO.
    I think housing has that distinction, and runs no risk of losing it anytime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    You were in BETA for U13, did you actually look at the scaling feature? Current moors players will use this feature when they're looking to goof around in pvp, and people who want to try out the region for the first time via a scaled freep will be essentially kicked in the teeth for their troubles. This feature is way too raw for release and is going to cause more harm than good for the audience its actually targeted at.
    I don't think so. Sure, there will be fresh, squishy meat for all, but it will encourage people to try PvP earlier, get hooked, and maybe keep the action a bit more populated. Remember, it's not just the L20s that are going to want to come in - it's anyone who has a character that's not at cap. Scaling isn't uber powerful, but it's not supposed to be. Nothing can - or should - replace the hard work of leveling and building up a tough freep. And let's not forget all the new monsters that will get rolled up to take advantage of the buffet laid out before them. This could help to revitalize things a fair bit, but it remains to be seen.

    Essentially scaling and Moors passes have now removed all limits from the potential audience for PvMP, so that now anyone can participate. That is a big plus if you ask me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Makiveli2084 View Post
    Maybe the catapults will be at GV and Grams, to prevent camping

    what an interesting idea....


    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    It would be great if the Moors could be rebuilt entirely with performance in mind, but I don't really see that happening.



    The term
    lag is used in so many ways that it is virtually meaningless.

    I will note, however, that it might be easier to build a new map than to rebuild the old one




    .
    Last edited by EmyrSelyf; Apr 14 2014 at 02:54 PM.
    [CENTER][SIZE=2][I][COLOR=#ff0000]Currently serving [/COLOR][COLOR=#3366ff]Brecfes[/COLOR][COLOR=#ff0000] on every world....[/COLOR][/I][/SIZE][/CENTER]

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    get hooked, and maybe keep the action a bit more populated.
    based on initial data, I find it hard to fathom who is going to become hooked coming into the moors with 1 audacity, a fraction of their skills, and a fraction of their stats with respect to a level 95 character. Masochists unite!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    based on initial data, I find it hard to fathom who is going to become hooked coming into the moors with 1 audacity, a fraction of their skills, and a fraction of their stats with respect to a level 95 character. Masochists unite!
    Isn't that essentially what r0 creeps come in as? Maybe the baby freeps could run around for 3 weeks picking up sticks and collecting rocks to help out?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    I think housing has that distinction, and runs no risk of losing it anytime soon.
    housing is late to the party on disappointing news from Turbine.
    I don't think so. Sure, there will be fresh, squishy meat for all, but it will encourage people to try PvP earlier, get hooked, and maybe keep the action a bit more populated. Remember, it's not just the L20s that are going to want to come in - it's anyone who has a character that's not at cap. Scaling isn't uber powerful, but it's not supposed to be. Nothing can - or should - replace the hard work of leveling and building up a tough freep. And let's not forget all the new monsters that will get rolled up to take advantage of the buffet laid out before them. This could help to revitalize things a fair bit, but it remains to be seen.

    Essentially scaling and Moors passes have now removed all limits from the potential audience for PvMP, so that now anyone can participate. That is a big plus if you ask me.
    My warg will quite literally kill any freep that comes to the moors under lvl 95 in under 5 seconds, and the vast majority of them before they get a single skill off. This isn't very fun for me, and I doubt many of the freeps trying the moors for the first time will enjoy being dead without even getting the chance to fight back or feel that such an experience is a motivation to play more. I probably won't engage many scaled characters as it won't be 'fun' for me, but plain and simple this will be a feeding frenzy that will don't more harm than good to the moors already poor reputation.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
    Isn't that essentially what r0 creeps come in as? Maybe the baby freeps could run around for 3 weeks picking up sticks and collecting rocks to help out?
    It would be interesting to pit a completely green creep against a completely unranked scaled freep. I think the creeps will have a pretty serious advantage at least up until lvl 75.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmyrSelyf View Post
    The term Lag is used in so many ways that it is virtually meaningless.
    Truer words are seldom spoken.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    based on initial data, I find it hard to fathom who is going to become hooked coming into the moors with 1 audacity, a fraction of their skills, and a fraction of their stats with respect to a level 95 character. Masochists unite!
    Most classes have the bulk of their main skills by level 40. As for the rest, like I said, scaling is not supposed to replace hard work. As for masochism, isn't that half the fun of the Moors?

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    housing is late to the party on disappointing news from Turbine.
    Players have been begging for housing updates for YEARS. Not one bone has been thrown. Not even one. PvMP has nothing to complain about by comparison.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
    Isn't that essentially what r0 creeps come in as? Maybe the baby freeps could run around for 3 weeks picking up sticks and collecting rocks to help out?
    yes. yes it is. that sounds really fun doesn't it.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Most classes have the bulk of their main skills by level 40. As for the rest, like I said, scaling is not supposed to replace hard work. As for masochism, isn't that half the fun of the Moors?
    lvl 40 = probably what, 30 trait points if that? And as Ugmo pointed out, these freeps are going to be coming in like r0 creeps and get decimated, and just like most creeps that try it out the first time, will not be coming back.


    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Players have been begging for housing updates for YEARS. Not one bone has been thrown. Not even one. PvMP has nothing to complain about by comparison.
    this is quite a skewed view based on it sounds like personal feelings. Basically two camps saying they are being ignored by turbine more, but what's the point in arguing this at all? So there have been promises broken, and this won't be the last time.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck View Post
    Players have been begging for housing updates for YEARS. Not one bone has been thrown. Not even one. PvMP has nothing to complain about by comparison.
    Except for housing is hardly end game.... I dont think I have ever heard anyone say that housing is not balanced.... Or that house over there is overpowered....

    Sorry, couldnt resist....

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    this is quite a skewed view based on it sounds like personal feelings. Basically two camps saying they are being ignored by turbine more, but what's the point in arguing this at all? So there have been promises broken, and this won't be the last time.
    Not sure how this is skewed. There have been no changes to the housing/decorating system since launch of housing. There are some pretty big changes and updates to PvMP as recently as today's update. But I do agree - there's no point in arguing about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaldor View Post
    Except for housing is hardly end game....
    As of this update, either is PvMP. LOL

 

 
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