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  1. #626
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesRollinsWare View Post
    Incorrect. Speaking of the forces of the Last Alliance, loosely as I am away from the "bible" - ... Included in the armies of both sides were members of each of the goodly races of Middle Earth "save the elves", who fought only for the forces of good. Besides, there is absolutely no writing that says elves "became" uruks. While captured elves may have been involved in the breeding of uruks, but nothing ever written stated, or even implied, that elves became uruks - somebody is mixing the movie lore - which is at best loosely based on the books, but at worse entirely made up - with what is in the books!

    In much the same way, nothing written in the books states - or even implies - that Balrogs (note the plural since there were "regiments" of them in the armies of the First Age) had wings or could fly. If they could have done so, those very same regiments of Morkoth would have flown over and flanked the Elven Armies. Again, loosely quoted, the books say the Balrog of Khazad-dum was "cloaked" in an aura of darkness/dread "dark like wings" - but, it did not have wings!

    In fact, I seem to recall that the Balrogs were made in mockery of the elves, and were as powerful as a Noldor Elf of the First Age, but neither elves nor Balrogs could fly - only some - not all - dragons could do that!

    Anyway, just my two cents ...

    I am, most respectfully,


    Luinmiriel-Magellin
    Elven Huntress of Lorien
    Honoured Warrior of the White Lady
    "The Well Met"
    Forgive me for saying "became" in a manner that you construed as "changed into". Of course elves didn't miraculously change into uruks, they were however as you state, possibly, even probably used in the breeding of uruk-hai, as were men. Eggs do not change into dough, and neither does flour, but mix the two, and they both "become" dough.

    Regardless of the minuscule finer detail of the use of a word, it is still my opinion (yes, just an opinion) that any Beorning that has turned to evil, would be just that - evil. I very much doubt an evil Beorning would be . . . . good. The remainder of good Beorning - again in my opinion - would probably not stray from one of Beorn's major characteristics of vegetarianism and a kindness towards animals.

    As for Balrogs, I have no idea whether they could fly or not, but I'm quite happy to take an expert word for it. Hopefully we will never see it as a LOTRO class some day.

  2. #627
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesRollinsWare View Post
    Incorrect. Speaking of the forces of the Last Alliance, loosely as I am away from the "bible" - ... Included in the armies of both sides were members of each of the goodly races of Middle Earth "save the elves", who fought only for the forces of good. Besides, there is absolutely no writing that says elves "became" uruks. While captured elves may have been involved in the breeding of uruks, but nothing ever written stated, or even implied, that elves became uruks - somebody is mixing the movie lore - which is at best loosely based on the books, but at worse entirely made up - with what is in the books!

    In much the same way, nothing written in the books states - or even implies - that Balrogs (note the plural since there were "regiments" of them in the armies of the First Age) had wings or could fly. If they could have done so, those very same regiments of Morkoth would have flown over and flanked the Elven Armies. Again, loosely quoted, the books say the Balrog of Khazad-dum was "cloaked" in an aura of darkness/dread "dark like wings" - but, it did not have wings!

    In fact, I seem to recall that the Balrogs were made in mockery of the elves, and were as powerful as a Noldor Elf of the First Age, but neither elves nor Balrogs could fly - only some - not all - dragons could do that!

    Anyway, just my two cents ...

    I am, most respectfully,


    Luinmiriel-Magellin
    Elven Huntress of Lorien
    Honoured Warrior of the White Lady
    "The Well Met"
    Slight correction. Balrogs were Maiar, and thus could take whatever visible physical form they wished. They were willed by Morgoth to be dark and terrifying. I agree that Balrogs could not fly. Creatures that could fly had that ability mentioned specifically (Thuringwethil, for instance or the winged dragons like Smaug).

    Orcs were made in mockery of Elves (the actual origin of them is shrouded in mystery and Tolkien's notes as published by Christopher Tolkien reveal the shifting of the conceptions surrounding them) it is said. It is certain in the lore that they were biologically akin to the Elves/Men, for they had a physical life exactly the same as they. Remember Frodo's words to Sam when in the Tower of Cirith Ungol "Foul meats they will take/eat if they can't get anything better, but not poison. They've given me food and drink, so I'm better off ...".

    Treebeard tells Merry and Pippin that trolls were made in mockery of Ents, and that the Orcs/Trolls birthed in the First Age (the Darkness) were weakened (cannot abide the light of the sun) in sunlight. Saruman's orcs/half-orcs/uruks (larger sided orcs as goblins were smaller sized) could abide the sunlight; leading Treebeard to speculate that Saruman crossed the orcs with Men (again, only biologically possible if close enough akin genetically, meaning similar to the Two Kindreds of the Children of Iluvatar).
    Last edited by cdq1958; Apr 29 2014 at 02:24 PM.
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  3. #628
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    I would disagree, however, that is just my opinion. Elves turned evil too, and they became uruks - on the dark side. I "imagine" any evil Beornings would be the same, on the dark side, and not on the side of the Free Peoples.
    It wasn't that Elves turned evil, but that Melkor captured a lot of Avari and with Sauron's help, broke their wills and used them as breeding-stock for the first generation of Orcs. That's a bit different from what we're talking about here, which is some Men being evil of their own volition rather than being victims of monstrous evil; some of Beorn's descendants were apparently just grim and bad by their own nature.. Beorn's 'good' descendants, on the other hand, were supposed to be rather like him in heart, which is open to interpretation but which I very much doubt should include gleefully slaughtering animals.

    for me personally, I don't mind at all, as I do not think it is possible to build a game and stick to the Lore. I quite like the idea of a class that can go around giving bear hugs - although I disagree completely that it should be "man" only. I do however know that there are many players who deem Lore as something to be abided by to the max, and Turbine should consider that when designing this class.
    Lore isn't something to throw out of the window, either. Of course skin-changing should be Man-only (and that as an innate ability possessed only by a few) because even in the Sil, no Elf can take another shape entirely. Finrod Felagund could do magical disguises, it seems, but the account in The Lay of Leithian suggests that it wasn't imagined by Tolkien as a true shape-change (more of a physical disguise enhanced with magic). Luthien's talents were unique, inherited from her mother Melian the Maia, so while she could give herself a vampire's shape and go flitting about like a bat, and also give the hapless Beren the shape of a werewolf (plainly not a fun experience for him!), that's no precedent for anyone else (High Elves included, and they're not even playable!) to be able to do anything of the sort.

  4. #629
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It wasn't that Elves turned evil, but that Melkor captured a lot of Avari and with Sauron's help, broke their wills and used them as breeding-stock for the first generation of Orcs. That's a bit different from what we're talking about here, which is some Men being evil of their own volition rather than being victims of monstrous evil; some of Beorn's descendants were apparently just grim and bad by their own nature.. Beorn's 'good' descendants, on the other hand, were supposed to be rather like him in heart, which is open to interpretation but which I very much doubt should include gleefully slaughtering animals.


    Lore isn't something to throw out of the window, either. Of course skin-changing should be Man-only (and that as an innate ability possessed only by a few) because even in the Sil, no Elf can take another shape entirely. Finrod Felagund could do magical disguises, it seems, but the account in The Lay of Leithian suggests that it wasn't imagined by Tolkien as a true shape-change (more of a physical disguise enhanced with magic). Luthien's talents were unique, inherited from her mother Melian the Maia, so while she could give herself a vampire's shape and go flitting about like a bat, and also give the hapless Beren the shape of a werewolf (plainly not a fun experience for him!), that's no precedent for anyone else (High Elves included, and they're not even playable!) to be able to do anything of the sort.
    Lore isn't something to be thrown out of the window either. Correct, neither is it something that should be flipped and tossed around to suit a particular point of view, which so often happens and is very likely to happen with this class. It's either Lore abiding, or it's not. Sure, the shape changer should be man, I didn't say it shouldn't be, I just said I disagreed with it. Why? Because if it's going to run around the landscape killing all sorts of wildlife, then its not abiding by Lore anyway, so why bother making it man only? Break one lore, break as many as you like. Or break none! Likewise, why do hobbits even fight at all? They are peaceful. And before someone says, But the hobbits of the fellowship fought, I would then ask, why, are captains man only, because the hobbits were referred to as captains.

    As I said earlier, It really doesn't bother me that much, because I feel there is a need to break, or adapt lore to be able to make a game work, however, selective lore bending, done to suit, is not something I agree with.

    So, in a nutshell, from my point of view, Beornings shouldn't really be running around killing animals or wildlife, but, if they are, they should be hobbits, elves, dwarves and men Beornings, as they are all breaking lore anyway.
    Last edited by Arnenna; Apr 29 2014 at 09:26 PM.

  5. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by Adanamir View Post
    I wish you hadn't picked the Beornings as a new class ... I apologise for sounding negative at the very start, but what you are basically offering is a druid shape-shifter. Let someone correct me, but isn't this more or less the same as the druid class in World of Warcraft?

    Anyways, this feels like looking for the wow factor, rather than implementing the lore respectfully. Yes, I get it, you have some nominal arguments to justify the class's existence, but I honestly expected something more. Well, good luck with that. Personally, I think I'll pass.

    By the way, I'm not threatening to quit or something, I am just sad that it has come down to this. This is why I tend to favour original settings for video games in recent years, you don't have any limits to imagination and introducing new things doesn't have to appear convoluted as it does in this case.
    I have to agree as well. Making a Beorning a class doesn't really respect the lore. It's like creating a MMORPG based off of The Wizard of Oz and then introducing the new Tin Man class. Sure, you could do it but it disregards the lore. In the same way, Beornings were rare, not a common sight. Not someone that you just find walking down the street, working quests and hittin the ol' Prancing Poney after hours. Might as well introduce a new Istari/Wizard class while you're at it so you can have lots of Wizards running around. Oh wait, that's right, there were only five. Same kind of thing with the Beorings. Respect the lore.

  6. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Of course people are aware of that but in the quote it's 'men', small 'm', and the context in which it appears implies he really does mean the men. There's little reason to imagine otherwise, given that this is Tolkien we're talking about.
    Quote Originally Posted by Harper_of_Gondolin View Post
    This is correct, but we do not need to think that the author was any form of raging chauvinist.

    HoG
    Yep. Still waitin for why and how there can be any female skin-changers. Ain't seen nobody go after that one. Just sayin'...
    Today is a good day for Pie.

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  7. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by Joel1245 View Post
    I have to agree as well. Making a Beorning a class doesn't really respect the lore. It's like creating a MMORPG based off of The Wizard of Oz and then introducing the new Tin Man class. Sure, you could do it but it disregards the lore. In the same way, Beornings were rare, not a common sight. Not someone that you just find walking down the street, working quests and hittin the ol' Prancing Poney after hours. Might as well introduce a new Istari/Wizard class while you're at it so you can have lots of Wizards running around. Oh wait, that's right, there were only five. Same kind of thing with the Beorings. Respect the lore.
    well,about the five wizards...u can see similarities with LM...both can wield sword and stuff(from certain lvl but can) and also can use aid of animals (like gandalf did with great eagles,or even radagast is doing in red maid instance)

  8. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by stefan1988 View Post
    well,about the five wizards...u can see similarities with LM...both can wield sword and stuff(from certain lvl but can) and also can use aid of animals (like gandalf did with great eagles,or even radagast is doing in red maid instance)
    Exactly. And although I don't think they will, I think they could have chosen to implement a new class inspired by Beorn, without being a true skin-changer.

    Instead of actually transforming into a bear, the class could use claw weapons and such. Some of he graphic affects of the attacks could use a ghost bear, just like we have ents and spiders attacking when you execute a red or yellow FM. And if they really wanted to be nice, there could be an option which hides those effects from players who don't want to see them (that would be great for LM and RK effects too).

    Done well, they could have satisfied both groups of players - those who want to play a Beorning, and those who don't want to violate the lore.
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  9. #634
    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg View Post
    Exactly. And although I don't think they will, I think they could have chosen to implement a new class inspired by Beorn, without being a true skin-changer.

    Instead of actually transforming into a bear, the class could use claw weapons and such. Some of he graphic affects of the attacks could use a ghost bear, just like we have ents and spiders attacking when you execute a red or yellow FM. And if they really wanted to be nice, there could be an option which hides those effects from players who don't want to see them (that would be great for LM and RK effects too).

    Done well, they could have satisfied both groups of players - those who want to play a Beorning, and those who don't want to violate the lore.
    well lore was hurt lil bit by implementing those LM skill i mentioned so no big deal about it...but still i am so imterested...even so much that i just lack the interest of playing my chars so much as before...feeling desperate about how to fill time bhetween these days and the day the new class come out...playing lotro different ways,trying other games...(tried to play Smite but they have virus on their instalation thingies so antivir wont allow me to play it after today actualisation anymore)

  10. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by stefan1988 View Post
    well,about the five wizards...u can see similarities with LM...both can wield sword and stuff(from certain lvl but can)
    Actually Gandalf was the only Wizard to wield a sword in the books. And if I recall correctly, the inspiration for the Lore-Master was Elrond.

    and also can use aid of animals (like gandalf did with great eagles
    But he didn't summon them to his aid like the LM does with pets. The Eagles had free will, and offered to be messengers in the books.Gwaihir made it plain that he was sent to 'bear tidings not burdens' when he rescued Gandalf from Orthanc. And he was nobody's taxi or pet for sure.

    or even radagast is doing in red maid instance
    I'll admit it's been awhile since I did this instance, but I don't recall Radagast using any of the animals to attack. Mostly using nature based strikes against the ememies.
    Today is a good day for Pie.

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  11. #636
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arnenna View Post
    Lore isn't something to be thrown out of the window either. Correct, neither is it something that should be flipped and tossed around to suit a particular point of view, which so often happens and is very likely to happen with this class. It's either Lore abiding, or it's not. Sure, the shape changer should be man, I didn't say it shouldn't be, I just said I disagreed with it. Why? Because if it's going to run around the landscape killing all sorts of wildlife, then its not abiding by Lore anyway, so why bother making it man only? Break one lore, break as many as you like. Or break none! Likewise, why do hobbits even fight at all? They are peaceful. And before someone says, But the hobbits of the fellowship fought, I would then ask, why, are captains man only, because the hobbits were referred to as captains.
    I don't subscribe to the notion that if something happens to break one bit of lore, it can be open season on everything. There's an archetype for Men turning into bears but there's nothing like that for Elves turning into any sort of animal. Hobbits would fight to defend themselves, it's not as if they were pacifists; and hobbits were only ever captains to their own kind, it's not as if Dwarves, Elves or Men ever viewed any hobbit as an inspirational leader. It's pretty hard to lead the charge when you're only three and a half feet tall - something which Merry and Pippin weren't any more after having drunk Ent-draughts.

    As I said earlier, It really doesn't bother me that much, because I feel there is a need to break, or adapt lore to be able to make a game work, however, selective lore bending, done to suit, is not something I agree with.
    It's not that selective. Having lots of skin-changers out of place is little different in principle from having lots of hobbits out of place. Besides which, breaking only the bits of lore you need to and trying to leave the rest intact isn't being selective so much as trying to keep at least somewhat within the spirit of things.

    So, in a nutshell, from my point of view, Beornings shouldn't really be running around killing animals or wildlife, but, if they are, they should be hobbits, elves, dwarves and men Beornings, as they are all breaking lore anyway.
    Having descendants of Beorn killing wildlife isn't definitely a change, since we can't tell whether they entirely shared Beorn's attitudes. That therefore seems very scant reason for the sort of craziness you're suggesting. A game with hobbit, Elf or Dwarf 'Beornings' would be a laughing-stock.

  12. #637

    Thanks Aaron!

    This is great news Aaron.
    I've been in since the beginning and love how your team has brought the Middle Earth to life online.
    - - -

    That said, you've doubtless been asked if you can expand PVP on select servers to more regions?
    Benefit could be increased usership, even if it requires controls to try to maintain play balance and or story character.

    For instance, I'd love to contest freeps in a quest instance with my creep.
    Contested Instance may be an opportunity.

    You could have creep alerts for creep players that want to contest freeps in instances.

    Could instances be an avenue for creep classes to level up from lower levels on PVP servers?
    Unexploited usership attraction in leveling up creeps I think.

    You have your critical path.

    Just trying to help you increase usership in the environments that you have already built.

    Question, can you enable spiders to climb on trees and vertical elements like roofs and under ceilings?

    Cheers,
    klikklak

  13. #638

    Thanks Aaron!

    Giving spiders a leap command like wolf spiders would be awesome also.
    Cheers!

  14. #639
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    If the last posts are trying to suggest select servers become converted to some sort of open-world PvMP then no, and a thousand times no. On the basic principle of the raw time that would be drained by attempting to do so alone it shouldn't be considered. Likewise it was made clear when PvMP was launched that it was not and would not become a true "alternate path" of play. Nor should it be allowed to become that.

    Additional zones for fully contained PvMP wouldn't be bad however. Instanced areas too might be an approach to consider as I think might have been suggested. The post really wasn't razor clear on some things. I think there could be some though given to a few locations that could become semi gated for use as PvMP zones. Fornost comes to mind actually.
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  15. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beleg View Post
    Exactly. And although I don't think they will, I think they could have chosen to implement a new class inspired by Beorn, without being a true skin-changer.

    Instead of actually transforming into a bear, the class could use claw weapons and such. Some of he graphic affects of the attacks could use a ghost bear, just like we have ents and spiders attacking when you execute a red or yellow FM. And if they really wanted to be nice, there could be an option which hides those effects from players who don't want to see them (that would be great for LM and RK effects too).

    Done well, they could have satisfied both groups of players - those who want to play a Beorning, and those who don't want to violate the lore.
    Great suggestion.

    There are already spirit bears in Sari-suma. They look fantastic and could definitely meet the 'inspired by Beorn' class description without having to see hairy half-bears transforming in groups. The weapons and appearance of armour could be tailored for this class to add to the 'beariness' of the class without creating a lore/race issue.

    I am very worried about the lag from the skin-changing animations on playing character mid instance-LM fire already lags me badly, despite having a decent NVIDIA graphics card and plenty of ram on my G53S Asus. I always have post combat effects turned off. In fact I have most combat effects turned off.

    Those 'deed completed' and 'you do not have enough room to do that' alerts that pop up mid raid also cause everything else to stop working for a few microsecs...

  16. #641
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    beorning Sorry but this don't make sense at the time of our game he was the last shape shifter for the same reason we don't have wizards we should not have shapeshifters There was 5 total wizards in middle earth 2 of which were never talked about and Radagast Gandalf Saruman. Is this not the same the have a bunch of beornings running around when there was only one left well at the time of the hobbit and our game plays out 60 years later during the age of the Lord of the Rings.

    Since this guy was a man race would he not already be dead by now or at the least a very old man U really want True Fans of Tolkien to buy this load. I know most of the gamers are so starved for a new claas u could hand the anything and they would be happy but I find this class a insulte to may intelligents. U might just of well release the Wizard class at the same time now. It would seem nothing of the story matters anymore since helms deep. You slid down the slippery slope with helms deep. I think its time to change the game now to The game that was know as Lord of the Rings (New Name)

  17. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless.one View Post
    beorning Sorry but this don't make sense at the time of our game he was the last shape shifter for the same reason we don't have wizards we should not have shapeshifters There was 5 total wizards in middle earth 2 of which were never talked about and Radagast Gandalf Saruman. Is this not the same the have a bunch of beornings running around when there was only one left well at the time of the hobbit and our game plays out 60 years later during the age of the Lord of the Rings.

    Since this guy was a man race would he not already be dead by now or at the least a very old man U really want True Fans of Tolkien to buy this load. I know most of the gamers are so starved for a new claas u could hand the anything and they would be happy but I find this class a insulte to may intelligents. U might just of well release the Wizard class at the same time now. It would seem nothing of the story matters anymore since helms deep. You slid down the slippery slope with helms deep. I think its time to change the game now to The game that was know as Lord of the Rings (New Name)
    Well, there were more.
    When Frodo was looking into Galadhriel's bowl, he said he saw the lands of the Beornings on fire or something like that. The means there had to be more of them. There are also many more quotes that you can see earlier in the thread.

    Also, in the hobbit, it said the beornings were rare, not only beorn. It also said the elves were rare.
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  18. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Fearless.one View Post
    beorning Sorry but this don't make sense at the time of our game he was the last shape shifter for the same reason we don't have wizards we should not have shapeshifters There was 5 total wizards in middle earth 2 of which were never talked about and Radagast Gandalf Saruman. Is this not the same the have a bunch of beornings running around when there was only one left well at the time of the hobbit and our game plays out 60 years later during the age of the Lord of the Rings.

    Since this guy was a man race would he not already be dead by now or at the least a very old man U really want True Fans of Tolkien to buy this load. I know most of the gamers are so starved for a new claas u could hand the anything and they would be happy but I find this class a insulte to may intelligents. U might just of well release the Wizard class at the same time now. It would seem nothing of the story matters anymore since helms deep. You slid down the slippery slope with helms deep. I think its time to change the game now to The game that was know as Lord of the Rings (New Name)

    also there was said name of race beornings means something like descendants/followers of the beorn and as well,i think i dont have u to remind that he have son,grimbeorn.

  19. #644
    I'm a bit late to the party, but I just wanted to add:

    THIS ALL SOUNDS GREAT!

    well except the lack of housing update, but otherwise, GREAT!

  20. #645
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    I would like to see new monster class/race as Numenorean sorcerer or goblin firecracker implemented instead of catapults in Ettenmoors. PPL asked for this for months/years and nothing. There is no space there for catapults which are designed for fights of armies, not for minor skirmishes which are common in Ettenmoors. They shouldnt be hard to implement since the animations exist already on NPCs and there are few skills only in monster play. You can make new pets that entertain for a while, but not something that would keep players busy for a year and they would pay for it. I dont understand to this management that implement things that nobody wanted and they dont listen to what ppl really want.

  21. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefali View Post
    I would like to see new monster class/race as Numenorean sorcerer or goblin firecracker implemented instead of catapults in Ettenmoors. PPL asked for this for months/years and nothing. There is no space there for catapults which are designed for fights of armies, not for minor skirmishes which are common in Ettenmoors. They shouldnt be hard to implement since the animations exist already on NPCs and there are few skills only in monster play. You can make new pets that entertain for a while, but not something that would keep players busy for a year and they would pay for it. I dont understand to this management that implement things that nobody wanted and they dont listen to what ppl really want.
    First two things that cane up when I searched up the thing that nobody wanted:
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-for-the-Moors
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...The-Ettenmoors
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  22. #647
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    That was about complete rewamp of Ettenmoors. In this case it doesnt make sense.
    I have another thread: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-what-you-want!

  23. #648
    Quote Originally Posted by Lefali View Post
    That was about complete rewamp of Ettenmoors. In this case it doesnt make sense.
    I have another thread: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-what-you-want!
    One of them was a revamp of the Ettenmoors, look at the other. Ya, and I know the one that I made did not get support.
    Withywindle characters-Caesaran (warden), Dernudan (Lore master)
    Brandywine characters- Dernudan (champion), Denthur (guardian), Delphinianic(captain)

  24. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
    Coming to the "end" of the story only gives us freedom to venture to other parts of the world. I don't see it as an end at all.
    I speak for a lot of dwarves. We of course want Erebor, like a real Erebor not a rushed one like the instance. But also the Iron Hills, that would be awesome. But I see that being at the end of 2017..

  25. #650
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    242
    Just took a closer look at this letter. I find that 2014 and 2015 are going to awesome times, for LOTRO. I'm very excited about the benefits of being a VIP. Keep up the great work.
    In place of a dark lord, you shall have Queen...... All shall love me and dispair


    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0a20b000000050392/01006/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

 

 
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