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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    I feel like this will be abused at some point in the future but I think that the berserker champion should rank up among the top single target dps classes. Its focus is sacrificing defense for offense and as such, should be one of the more dangerous classes of the free peoples. Now that being said, I don't think we are there yet and I think there are other issues that we need to resolve to get there, but that is the end goal for where they should rank.

    -Jinjaah
    Please factor in:

    1) We HAVE to be in melee range to do any damage. Let Fly is not a DPS skill.

    2) We cannot kite and do damage.

    3) We have no escape skills on the level of HIPS.

    We should be on the top of the DPS food chain, ST or AOE, because we cannot do damage from the relative safety of 30/40m, we can't run around kiting and fulfill our main function, and we have no ability to escape if things go south. All we can do is DPS at close range. I know Hunters, RKs and Burgs might not like hearing that, but they have inherent class advantages that make their DPS far less risky (and no, heavy armor isn't as big an advantage as you think it is).

  2. #127
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sthrax View Post
    Please factor in:

    1) We HAVE to be in melee range to do any damage. Let Fly is not a DPS skill.

    2) We cannot kite and do damage.

    3) We have no escape skills on the level of HIPS.

    We should be on the top of the DPS food chain, ST or AOE, because we cannot do damage from the relative safety of 30/40m, we can't run around kiting and fulfill our main function, and we have no ability to escape if things go south. All we can do is DPS at close range. I know Hunters, RKs and Burgs might not like hearing that, but they have inherent class advantages that make their DPS far less risky (and no, heavy armor isn't as big an advantage as you think it is).
    Completely agree with you.

    -Jinjaah

  3. #128
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    well, the responses are reassuring. I've bugged it before, but is there any chance you can take a look at the functionality of fight on! ? It currently either only crits, or doesn't crit. The individual tics of the heal only crit/don't depending on how the first tic goes. Which results in either quite a powerful heal, or quite an underwhelming heal.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  4. #129
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    well, the responses are reassuring. I've bugged it before, but is there any chance you can take a look at the functionality of fight on! ? It currently either only crits, or doesn't crit. The individual tics of the heal only crit/don't depending on how the first tic goes. Which results in either quite a powerful heal, or quite an underwhelming heal.
    Sure I can take a look at it. Right now it is currently a percent of your max morale per tick so I'm not sure it should ever be able to crit. Its a tricky skill because in practice you don't really feel it, but on paper its quite a bit of healing. I think a functionality change may be in order to make it feel a more exciting while not giving designers a minor heart attack.

    -Jinjaah

  5. #130
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by God-Of-Wargs View Post
    On further thought, I do want to ask though, when did Champions become *not* THE king of melee dps? I seem to recall that at one point, Champions were supposed to be either the best melee dpsers, or at least tied for it. Not just "among the top." Especially since, like you said, we sacrifice defense for offense, when classes like Burglars and Wardens have much more offense than Champs, but also have more survivability skills.

    Also, on a side note: Champions Duel can be block/parry/evaded (or it could at some point, dunno if this was fixed?). Is this intended? It's really weird to see my Champ duel someone and see 'Evaded' over their head.
    I would bug that with CD, I am not sure if it is fixed but just to be sure if it still happens, let us know. I think the champion lost his king status during the update of u12. I believe I talked about this in a thread early this year but the problem really arose during the implementation of helms deep when we got nervous preemptively about the numbers we had implemented. I will try and dig up my response to that thread that would explain it in a little more detail and post it here.

    -Jinjaah

  6. #131
    For the most part neat additions (especially CBR/BR being immediate and longer immunity duration, woooo!)

    A bit worried about some things though:
    Hamstring duration - (yeah, IK I can swap to my axe with hamstring leg and get extra duration, but even then I feel like a melee slow deserves to be at least 20 seconds) the CD would be nice at lower as well, knockdowns, well I think there's already too much cc in the moors but that might be just me.

    Increasing the staple traits - it is hard to deny that champ dps is rather lackluster for now, we suck it up and QQ to one another awaiting the day of reckoning or whatever, but as is we need half of the blueline tree for riposite to be effective. (that skill is beastmode, no joke) If sprint requires points and hamstring requires points to be decent and then everything else It might end that we have to pick - get these boosts that are certainly nice, but dont equal what we get from dipping in blue line or basically get nothing or close to that by keeping the good stuff we get right now...


    Lastly - moors champ redline 4 piece should be - applies stacking inc healing debuff on strike skills that caps at 30-50% :P Or you could just bring the old one on remo back at least ^^

    Cheers for hard work and good luck!


    Crickhollow l Thorfinn || r14 champ, r12 burglar- Crickhollow || r11//r9 warg Crick//Elendilmir || + other stuff

  7. #132
    Good start so far. Here are some further suggestions:

    1. Give the red line a permanent attack speed buff.
    2. Allow Remorseless Strike to be used in the yellow and blue lines.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  8. #133
    A couple of questions:
    Does the Devastating Strike debuff only effect the champs damage, or all incoming melee damage?
    Will Update 13.1 fix the bugs in the damage per pip that was already supposed to be fixed? (Raging Blade and Fury of Blades 2nd strike are not receiving the damage bonus when using a 2h weapon)

  9. #134
    Just though I should leave this here:
    Any half a competent creep can kill a champion right now. Now, Jinjaah, do you plan to fix this, or is it only PvE you care for? Because I'm getting depressed like this. There's absolutely nothing I can do against a well played creep.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
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    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  10. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Hey All,

    So here is a list of the following changes coming to the champion for 13.1. There may be a few more on the way but we are weighing the possibility of moving them to update 14 for a few reasons that we don't need to get into at this moment. These changes are not a means to be the fix all problems with the berserker (as you can see the pip consumption changes are not included for now) but are meant to address some concerns with damage and other issues brought up in this thread:

    Champion:

    General
    - Fear Nothing Now removes PDFW not just fear. Cooldown has been reduced to 45 seconds, down from 3 minutes.
    - Blood Rage and its improved version are now immediate skills.
    - Wild Attack is now considered a Strike skill. All bonuses and procs affecting strike skills work with this skill.
    - Hamstring’s cooldown has been increased to 20s. Its slow duration has been lowered to 8s, down from 20s.
    - Blood Rage is now an immediate skill.

    Berserker
    Specialization changes:
    - Emboldened Blades has a 100% chance to apply its buff, up from 20%
    - Devastating Strike now increases enemy incoming melee damage by +10% instead of debuffing miss chance.
    Trait Changes:
    - Wild Swings:
    - Critical Chance buff from the final rank now lasts for 10s, up from 6s.
    - Vicious Strikes:
    - Now increases the Critical Chance of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    - Strong Armed Swings:
    - Now affects the damage of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    - Deep Strikes:
    - Deep Strikes bleed is now based off your implements dps and has been greatly increased in potency.
    - Controlled Burn:
    - Increased duration of effect to 30s, up from 20s.
    - Decreased cooldown to 90s, down from 120s.
    - Athletic:
    - Each rank reduces the cooldown of Sprint by 40s, up from 10s.
    - Hamstrung:
    - Ranks 1 through 4 increases the duration of the slow by 1s. Max rank enables hamstring to knock down its target for 3s.
    - Renewing Strikes:
    - Increased proc chance to 20%, up from 10%.
    Specialization Trait Changes:
    - Continuous Blood Rage
    - Continuous Blood Rage is now an immediate skill.
    - CBR now lasts for 20s, up from 15s.

    Apologies for the formatting, it looked really nice in my document but as you all know, forums don't like formatting sometimes.

    -Jinjaah
    TYVM for the changes but only Hamstring is going to be useless skill so pls try to do more changes for it

  11. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Applejacksoph24 View Post
    Bracing attack should be HoT again, end of story.
    Although we have good self-healing in PVE, it is right that, without Hot, this skill is not very useful actually.
    (it was my main self-healing at 85, but not anymore now)

  12. #137
    First of all, thank you again Jinjaah for all your feedback and responses. And thank you to the changes for the next update. I would like to comment a few things focusing the champ class in the pvp section:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Hamstring’s cooldown has been increased to 20s. Its slow duration has been lowered to 8s, down from 20s.

    Here i think that against certain classes that has a perma slow like reaver , ba , warg , etc. Makes that they can't "kite" champ once the champions duels is off and hasmtring aswell. Also considering that reaver with resilance can remove one snare and with the insignia another one and with mordirith another one... i think it would be hard to maintance our combat in melee range sometimes. So i'm quite agree that maybe it would be better to have 20s cd and 20s duration.

    Other thing is that most of the champs in red line we spent points in blue to get riposate skill. If we want to get hamstring at max rank we will not have enough points to get riposate aswell. If also we have to include points in the deep strikes skill and in sprint now. We will have to decide between riposate or hamstring for knock down, and i think the majority of us will preffer riposate imo. So that will makes hamstring skill useless to choose. I think that instead to put a knock down it would be more useful to increase the duration at the same time as hasmtring cd or decrease the ranks that you need to arrive at max rank, 5 points is too much i think.

    My other Concern, is about Survavility:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Renewing Strikes:
    - Increased proc chance to 20%, up from 10%.

    20% is not bad, but we have to consider that this heal is aproximatly arround 1200 morale back. I think that is not enough even if you have that healing back more often. The reason is the following:

    The main problem is that if you have to encounter a reaver for example, rank 12. The majority of them has arround 67k morale + 25% morale back from pot + 2.5% morale back per hit with wrath skill with the posibility to reduce the cd of the skill + 15% morale back reseting skills + glory in victory hot morale back. For not mention that our tactical mitigation has dropped significatly.

    While champs has: Fight on 3% morale back every 2s during 40s+ potion of morale arround 2k + jewellry 10% morale back that is 2800 more or less + renewing strikes that is arround 1k morale back... and brancing attack that is like 1400 morale back. For not mention that reaver has 3 times more morale than a champ an that the burst of damage from reaver is higher than our damage nowdays. And if you include that impale reduce your morale to the 50% allowing to reavers to use the dev strike combo that reduce your incoming healing 50% aswell that means that also reduce all the healings that i put before to the half. So instead to recive 1k ... is 500 morale back , instead to recive 800 morale back per tick is 400.... so quite ridicolus.

    Here an example of my healing with 22% ich. If you have the dev strike debuff all this healings are reduced to the half :/.

    Healing from champ: Renewing Strikes applied a heal to Aniquilador restoring 1,254 points to Morale. Fight On applied a heal to Aniquilador restoring 790 points to Morale during 20s. Bracing Attack Heal applied a heal to Aniquilador restoring 1,416 points to Morale. Champion Tank applied a heal to Aniquilador restoring 2,897 points to Morale. Increased Morale applied a heal to Aniquilador restoring 1,881 points to Morale.

    So my question here is , do you think Jinjaah that with this changes it will be enought for champ to have an oportunity against all the selfheals from reaver? I will suggest here that at least increase the % of the healing back from renewing strikes, 5% i think is not enought. Put some hot on brancing attack, still being ridicolous that the skill still healing the same that 10 level back. And one of the problem is that figh on even if you use at the begin of the combat, reaver is able to drop your morale to the 50% quickly. So practically you are reciving 400 morale back per tick during 15s. If revers reset can put another healing debuff on you so can be 30s.

    So i think that maybe it would be better to increase the potency of the morale back and reduce the duration of the skill of fight on. That will allows to champ that we don't have to "kite" while we are recovering morale and reavers using blade toss every 20s... or at least has the posibility to reduce the cd of fight on while we are using the sprint and have the posibility to use the skill again more often.

    The other thing is the Damage :

    Is true that with the remorless strike buff and the 10% more incoming damage from dev strike, champion will gain a little burst of dps. But we have to think that even if remorless is with at max buff that not guarantee the crtical a 100% like seeking blade so it can be 7k damage or 2k. My other concern here is that; if we will be enought strong compared with the reavers with the combo impale+dev strike+ato+dev strike to kill them in terms of damage before we die ?or even to kill defilers?. Actually defilers seems immortal at this moment and with those changes seems it will not be enough to face them. Do you think Jinjaah that champ will have options againts the selfheals of one defiler for example rank 10 against the dps from champ¿? I dubt it the true.

    For the rest i think the changes are nice , the attack duration from champ still being a problem aswell but well as you commented seems it will be fixed in other patches. Thank you again for your time.
    Last edited by Aniquilador; Apr 24 2014 at 12:38 PM.
    Aniquilador Captain General Champion
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  13. #138
    Some stuff looks good (Blood rage being immediate, Fear Nothing, Dev strike)

    I'm not sure the real need for the hamstring change, but given the knockdown it needs a longer cd than the old 8s (insert rant about knockdowns ignoring combat state immunities, and even moreso that not all knockdowns ignore combat state immunity in the same way.). However I must say the complaints about not having a perma slow from hamstring seem misguided, considering with the legacy and trait you can get a greater duration on the effect than the skills cooldown.


    All the other changes are pretty disappointing, however. All the other bonuses introduced in Jinjaah's list essentially just make champion rotations more 1 dimensional, and remove some quite interesting nuances that were introduced with HD's class revamps. There were very nice rewards for different choices in traiting and skill usage, and tradeoffs to each. Now everything seems to be funneled into the one true rotation thats quite simple and boring, imo. Granted most of these nuances were well hidden behind the class' slow attack speed (which remains unchanged as yet) and rather meager base skill damage, but there was a quite meaningful difference between what a well thought out approach to the berserker champ could do and what a button masher could do, and I see these changes reducing that significantly.
    Last edited by spelunker; Apr 24 2014 at 01:17 PM.
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  14. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Aniquilador View Post
    Here i think that against certain classes that has a perma slow like reaver , ba , warg , etc. Makes that they can't "kite" champ once the champions duels is off and hasmtring aswell. Also considering that reaver with resilance can remove one snare and with the insignia another one and with mordirith another one... i think it would be hard to maintance our combat in melee range sometimes. So i'm quite agree that maybe it would be better to have 20s cd and 20s duration.
    It is true.

    Other thing is that most of the champs in red line we spent points in blue to get riposate skill. If we want to get hamstring at max rank we will not have enough points to get riposate aswell. If also we have to include points in the deep strikes skill and in sprint now. We will have to decide between riposate or hamstring for knock down, and i think the majority of us will preffer riposate imo. So that will makes hamstring skill useless to choose. I think that instead to put a knock down it would be more useful to increase the duration at the same time as hasmtring cd or decrease the ranks that you need to arrive at max rank, 5 points is too much i think.
    This is not true. I have Riposte with 2 points more than needed in blue, with a total of 61 trait points. I can easily reach Riposte while also maxing red.

    My other Concern, is about Survavility:
    You take the words right out of my mouth.


    healing
    I indeed think Bracing needs its HoT component back, but in all honesty, a DPS class shouldn't have so many heals. Reavers need the nerf that champions got when trait trees were introduced; sacrifice survivability for DPS.

    The other thing is the Damage :

    Is true that with the remorless strike buff and the 10% more incoming damage from dev strike, champion will gain a little burst of dps. But we have to think that even if remorless is with at max buff that not guarantee the crtical a 100% like seeking blade so it can be 7k damage or 2k. My other concern here is that; if we will be enought strong compared with the reavers with the combo impale+dev strike+ato+dev strike to kill them in terms of damage before we die ?or even to kill defilers?. Actually defilers seems immortal at this moment and with those changes seems it will not be enough to face them. Do you think Jinjaah that champ will have options againts the selfheals of one defiler for example rank 10 against the dps from champ¿? I dubt it the true.

    No single DPS class should be able to out DPS a healer. Once again, reavers need nerfing. But yeah, I think a Reaver's burst rotation would be translated to champion skills like this: Ferocious - Remorseless (free with proc) - Merciful - Fervour Pot/BF/CBR - Merciful. Now, I think this will not even come close to Reaver damage, relatively speaking. I think, that Merciful Strike needs redoing. Cooldown needs to be removed once again, if you have the trait maxed, and the damage should be doubled, if not tripled.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    All the other changes are pretty disappointing, however. All the other bonuses introduced in Jinjaah's list essentially just make champion rotations more 1 dimensional, and remove some quite interesting nuances that were introduced with HD's class revamps. There were very nice rewards for different choices in traiting and skill usage, and tradeoffs to each. Now everything seems to be funneled into the one true rotation thats quite simple and boring, imo. Granted most of these nuances were well hidden behind the class' slow attack speed (which remains unchanged as yet) and rather meager base skill damage, but there was a quite meaningful difference between what a well thought out approach to the berserker champ could do and what a button masher could do, and I see these changes reducing that significantly.
    I think quite the opposite, with DS changes. There will be a rather easy rotation (WA/SS/Remo spam), yes, but that won't result in the best DPS.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  15. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I think quite the opposite, with DS changes. There will be a rather easy rotation (WA/SS/Remo spam), yes, but that won't result in the best DPS.
    DS = Deep Strikes, correct? How do the changes to this trait have any impact on rotations whatsoever? This is precisely the type of change that adds nothing to the class but passive dps (and uncontrollable DoTs for weavers to faceroll you with. Seriously Jinjaah, take a look at reflects, they're positively stupid atm).
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  16. #141
    Nono, Devastating Strike.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  17. #142
    edit: giliodir beat me to it

  18. #143
    I think because of wild attack's longer tail and remorseless being nearly guaranteed crit after every 4-5 skills the rotation will be more locked in but it won't necessarily be a 1 dimensional one, and I still feel red champions will have to make tough decisions. They can't as easily dip into blue now to partake the survivability without losing out on some good stuff (welcome to the club)!

  19. #144
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    For the past 5 months it seems that a lot of discussions about the moors "balance" (survivability) issues seems to centre around reavers and their roflstompimpale.


    Now if you dont include reavers in your fights, how well some of the champions in here were doing before u13?


    My opinion is that champions were doing fine, and it was by far one of the better balanced freep classes, the only issues i saw was with their low damage output/speed.




    And now we are in the U13, and that caused a plenty of issues for a lot of players because of the mitigation change.

    So after being one of the most better "balanced" classes out there, this update naturally felt like a lackluster for the champions.




    Creeps got a buff they needed for their passives stats, like finesse, crit def, BPE, + finesse.

    Then there were some questionable buffs like the mitigations and the damage increase (weavers did need the damage buff though).




    Now the current champions DO not need massive buffs, what they really need is a proper damage output (cant go too overboard with this), and also make adjustment with their attack speed.

    And i really wish they would start swinging that nerf bat with the healings for both sides, and actually FIX the obviously broken skills/traits/legacies for certain classes.



    Inside that utopia even the decently buffed champion would work more than fine.
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  20. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Nono, Devastating Strike.
    Ah, well I did say that was one of the 3 good changes listed, and it doesn't really do much to change whats going to happen with champ rotations.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I think because of wild attack's longer tail and remorseless being nearly guaranteed crit after every 4-5 skills the rotation will be more locked in but it won't necessarily be a 1 dimensional one
    we'll have to wait and see when U13.1 goes to beta/live, I suppose. I'm pretty confident in how things will turn out, though.
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  21. #146
    No, but it makes quite a difference which skills you use during the DS debuff.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  22. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    No, but it makes quite a difference which skills you use during the DS debuff.
    it's going to be up 2/3 of the time so it won't be hard to use our big hitters in that time. The difficult part will be the balancing maxed remorseless (hitting remorseless after 5 strikes) with dev strikes buff so you don't waste strikes NOT tiering remorseless and also never having remorseless fall within the 4 seconds without dev strikes 10% incoming damage debuff.

  23. #148
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    From a solo point of view, I don't have to worry about breaking Crowd Control, or taking aggro away from a tank, I just grab as many mobs as I can to make questing, deeding faster. So the Rend Bleed is of utmost importance. If you want us solo'ers to use the Berserker Red Line, you need to make that single target bleed at least three times the max Rend. Make it stack or not, but to me that would balance things out. I never want to use the Berserker line anyway as a solo player cause I don't take on one target at a time. That would render the Champ a gimped Hunter without the range and negates the AOE advantage Champs have over other classes. I would at least switch to the Berserker line for a solo Boss battle IF the single target bleed were much greater than the Rend Bleed.
    .

    Main: Corrien Lvl 95 Champ (Meneldor)
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  24. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I think because of wild attack's longer tail and remorseless being nearly guaranteed crit after every 4-5 skills the rotation will be more locked in but it won't necessarily be a 1 dimensional one, and I still feel red champions will have to make tough decisions. They can't as easily dip into blue now to partake the survivability without losing out on some good stuff (welcome to the club)!
    My point. This is an easy rotation. But not per say the best one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nosterdamus View Post
    For the past 5 months it seems that a lot of discussions about the moors "balance" (survivability) issues seems to centre around reavers and their roflstompimpale.


    Now if you dont include reavers in your fights, how well some of the champions in here were doing before u13?


    My opinion is that champions were doing fine, and it was by far one of the better balanced freep classes, the only issues i saw was with their low damage output/speed.
    ... Which is quite big of an issue. BA/WL/Spider(good ones, anyway), were quite balanced (if champ didn't use CBR against the latter two). Wargs? Not so much, no. Flea Bitten is the true killer after HD, but also 1,8k Claws... On my full audacity 50% crit D champ. A mere 1,1k now (u13), which made wargs fights a lot more interesting imo. However, any other creep class can now faceroll champions, including the formerly balanced BA's.

    Overall, I agree with you. Champs were the only balanced freep class before U13. Wargs and Reavers just needed some... Adjusting?


    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    it's going to be up 2/3 of the time so it won't be hard to use our big hitters in that time. The difficult part will be the balancing maxed remorseless with this so you never remorseless strike when those 4 seconds without the 10% dmg buff at full tier.
    Still not just button mashing, is it? The average burg rotation is more boring.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  25. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Still not just button mashing, is it? The average burg rotation is more boring.
    I'd say the two look more similar in the upcoming update than they do now.
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