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  1. #76
    at least based on how much love defilers got, we can expect rocket launchers and laser guns when jinjaah gets done with our class.

  2. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    at least based on how much love defilers got, we can expect rocket launchers and laser guns when jinjaah gets done with our class.
    Even with a Quake3 Rocket launcher we'l stay underpower xD.Lots of things need to be changed at this class but im pretty sure jinjah will work this out.

  3. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by TamX View Post
    I fully agree with this.



    Never ever I have been asked (or expected) in groups & raids (PvE & PvP) to do anything else than melee AoE (or tank/off-tank in PvE, if there has not been any other suitable tank class in group). The only places you need single-target damage are instance challenges. AoE champ does not break any LM/burg stuns/dazes, if group has any sort of communication (that is, bring the non-dazed mobs away from dazed ones).

    Because Champ's yellow line is at the moment in very good condition (IMO), Champion is definitely not broken. My experience so far is that no other class can deal anything even near sustained AoE damage a yellow champ can. Blue line is decent, but could be better. Red line is niche for champions, although important one for certain situations. PvP'ers like to see improvements in red line only because red line has some nice traits usable in PvP (e.g. Champion's Duel).



    So far when tanking some 3-man instances post-HD, I have had no problems to take & keep aggro using AoE attacks. What makes some situations tricky is that our only non-damaging taunt is True Heroics with long CD, so in cases you are not allowed to kill adds, getting aggro is little bit hazardous (with Raging Blade). My personal feeling is that high part of blue line is unusable for tanking champ, because traits concentrate more to add DPS than add survavibility.



    I didn't run 'red champion' in same way pre-HD than it is now. I usually had 5r2y to boost DPS, and as you remember, it boosted both ST and AoE DPS. You chose to be a ST or AoE nuker by choosing your rotations. Only for very certain runs I traited 5y2r to boost AoE.

    - - -

    BTW, LotRO Wiki also indicates Champion's main role is AoE, if that matters to anyone: http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Class

    This^^^ Yes. Thank you.

  4. #79
    Well. Yellow champ is steamroller, no question about it.
    Problems i see currently:
    - Yellow is steamroller efficent, but as fun as driving steamroller and wielding sledgehammer
    - Blue, how do i tank ads when i cant kill em, and my agro aoe skills will kill em. So non lethal agro in blue for like 8 mobs is missing
    - Red.. well. blade wall in yellow hiting 12k and single target hits swinging mighty 700 dmaage to morale with some strike skills, is good indikation taht fervour still dosent contribute to dps.

  5. #80

    Post Update 13 feedback

    Alright, so I've been testing out the Champion a bit since Update 13 was released on Live, and here are some thoughts I have on the current state of things after the changes:

    With the reduction of stat contributions to mitigations and Physical/Tactical Mastery, I'm finding I spend a lot more time thinking about when and where to use skills during a fight, as well as seeing further balance when it comes damaged received. I think this is a good thing, as I'm also finding myself using skills I've barely touched upon before this update -- but on the other hand, I'm using specifically-constructed Second Age items and a lot of high-quality armor and jewellery, as well as maxed ranks in nearly every Virtue trait (along with the extra Fervour pip generation from the HD jewellery 3-set bonus, which makes a significant difference: getting two Fervour pips every two seconds for 10 seconds on top of the Battle Frenzy buff lets me throw out lots of high-cost skills out in succession, which lets me maximize use of the Fervour trait set bonus -- it feels like what a Berserker should be). This may need to be slightly adjusted to account for characters currently leveling, and for lower-quality equipment such as quest rewards.

    The new crafting instances appear to be a pretty good testing ground for these changes, IMHO. It felt relatively well-paced when running them with a crit build and the Berserker specialization, but still came across as underpowered and less varied in terms of combat options compared to the Deadly Storm specialization (which seemed about right where it stands currently, with the primary exception being Blade Storm. I'll elaborate on that in a bit). I think adding one extra skill should balance the feel of the Berserker specialization a bit better, though two may be overdoing it -- beyond that point, I think further improvements primarily lie with the existing skills themselves.

    As for the Deadly Storm specialization, combat feels like it fits where it belongs. The one real improvement I can see here lies with Blade Storm, since Blade Wall outpaces it in terms of damage (and costs no Fervour pips either!), despite Blade Storm being a full AoE -- I think a simple increase to its damage should be sufficient. The only other potential improvement I can see would be giving some further utility to Born For Combat, such as automatically triggering Champion's Advantage and/or Flurry upon use, and possibly changing the trigger for the stacks to be instead tied to Blade skill use.

    In summary, after testing the changes brought by Update 13, I'm thinking the following would improve the Champion class as it stands now:

    • Berserker:
      • Ferocious Strikes (skill): reduce the delay after skill execution. I believe this will allow it to better fit into rotations, particularly with two-handed weapons.
      • Merciful Minded (trait): add an additional benefit to maxing out the trait, such as allowing critical and devastating critical hits with Remorseless Strike to reset the cooldown on Merciful Strike and/or temporarily allowing it to be used regardless of how much morale the target still has (possibly giving the skill a damage buff while "unlocked"), and/or perhaps having it add a buff of some kind triggered by using Merciful Strike.
      • Continuous Blood Rage (skill): reduce cooldown and/or increase duration, or turn into a toggle skill counter-balanced by a debuff or steady morale cost. This is currently our only way to break out of CC in combat, so using it for the 15 second immunity and other buffs feels far too costly in comparison IMHO (the immunity also seems less useful considering standard CC immunity already lasts for 10 seconds after recovery) -- particularly because it also has a one minute cooldown. The limited duration seems to make more sense with Controlled Burn, since its functionality feels less situational and not something I feel I need to save for only breaking CC.
      • Additional skill: to further flesh out the Berserker specialization, I think adding another skill would add a bit of variety to single-target DPS.
        • Personally, I would add a skill which is classified as a Strike skill to match up with legacy and trait bonuses, but mechanically function similarily to the "targeted" AoE seen with Horn of Champions (the skill requires a target, but the AoE itself is specifically centered on that target -- not a PBAoE or a manually aimed skill) to allow the skill to strike two additional targets within a small range of the seleted target (though naturally only being able to be used within melee range, and only in front of the player like with other single-target Champion skills). I would also have this skill strike three times (ie. similar to Brutal Strikes, but damaging all affected targets), and apply a bleed which tiers up to a maximum of three with each hit not blocked/parried/evaded. Having the maximum number of targets increased by the Broad Sweeps trait might be a bit overpowered (though perhaps counter-balanced by the extra trait points necessary due to this theoretical skill only being available in the Berserker specialization), but I would personally allow the bleed damage from the skill to be buffed by the Deep Strikes trait (perhaps changing the bleed caused by Strike skill critical and devastating critical hits to only apply to other skills once maxed out at rank three?). As for the name of the skill, maybe something along the lines of "Wounding/Reckless Strikes"?

      • In general (Strike skills): change at least some Strike skills to function as Fast skills. The pace of combat is not too bad right now, but I think this may improve it considerably.

    • Deadly Storm:
      • Blade Storm (skill): simple damage increase. Blade Wall currently outpaces it damage-wise, so I think having it function as a simple high-damage AoE skill should counter-balance the Fervour pip cost and cooldown.
      • Born For Combat (skill): add a buff of some kind to the skill (ie. automatically trigger Champion's Advantage and/or Flurry), and perhaps change how stacks of the prerequisite buff are added (such as tying it to successful skill hits).

    • General:
      • Sprint (skill): reduce cooldown, or increase the cooldown reduction from the Athletic trait. The availability of this skill is too rare to get any real use out of it at this time, IMHO.
      • Disarm removal: another skill separate from Blood Rage/Continuous Blood Rage (maybe tie it to Fear Nothing?). As Rainothon mentioned, having both disarms and CC handled by the same skill could potentially cause problems for Champions in PvMP, as opposed to being a decent pseudo-CC in regards to melee classes in PvE.
      • Fear Nothing (skill): with the above in mind, add disarm removal along with its normal effects. Possibly reduce cooldown a bit?
    [B][I]One less Orc in the world is a good thing, and one less leader among the Orcs is a great thing.[/I][/B]

  6. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    I don't blame you for posting this. The difference this time is the changes are already completed, just never got to make it into update 13. We will talk about it after, I just don't want to muddy the waters with 13.1 discussions before update 13 is out the door.

    -Jinjaah
    So... Jinjaah, could we please get going? I am most anxious to hear what you have in mind to fix champs.

    Personally, I think red line needs a big boost; Brutal crits for 1,5k on War-leaders. That is the same it did on 85. All fast skills would solve to problem of sluggish red line. As it is now, we're way to reliant on crits (in PvP, anyway). Survival depends on a 5% proc. These are my main issues. Please! come over to our forums and discuss the possibilities.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  7. #82
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
    Turbine, Inc.
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    Hey All,

    So here is a list of the following changes coming to the champion for 13.1. There may be a few more on the way but we are weighing the possibility of moving them to update 14 for a few reasons that we don't need to get into at this moment. These changes are not a means to be the fix all problems with the berserker (as you can see the pip consumption changes are not included for now) but are meant to address some concerns with damage and other issues brought up in this thread:

    Champion:

    General
    - Fear Nothing Now removes PDFW not just fear. Cooldown has been reduced to 45 seconds, down from 3 minutes.
    - Blood Rage and its improved version are now immediate skills.
    - Wild Attack is now considered a Strike skill. All bonuses and procs affecting strike skills work with this skill.
    - Hamstring’s cooldown has been increased to 20s. Its slow duration has been lowered to 8s, down from 20s.
    - Blood Rage is now an immediate skill.

    Berserker
    Specialization changes:
    - Emboldened Blades has a 100% chance to apply its buff, up from 20%
    - Devastating Strike now increases enemy incoming melee damage by +10% instead of debuffing miss chance.
    Trait Changes:
    - Wild Swings:
    - Critical Chance buff from the final rank now lasts for 10s, up from 6s.
    - Vicious Strikes:
    - Now increases the Critical Chance of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    - Strong Armed Swings:
    - Now affects the damage of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    - Deep Strikes:
    - Deep Strikes bleed is now based off your implements dps and has been greatly increased in potency.
    - Controlled Burn:
    - Increased duration of effect to 30s, up from 20s.
    - Decreased cooldown to 90s, down from 120s.
    - Athletic:
    - Each rank reduces the cooldown of Sprint by 40s, up from 10s.
    - Hamstrung:
    - Ranks 1 through 4 increases the duration of the slow by 1s. Max rank enables hamstring to knock down its target for 3s.
    - Renewing Strikes:
    - Increased proc chance to 20%, up from 10%.
    Specialization Trait Changes:
    - Continuous Blood Rage
    - Continuous Blood Rage is now an immediate skill.
    - CBR now lasts for 20s, up from 15s.

    Apologies for the formatting, it looked really nice in my document but as you all know, forums don't like formatting sometimes.

    -Jinjaah

  8. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Hey All,
    [...]
    This looks very promising. Though, you might consider increasing the damage in Berserker spec by 15-20%. But like I said, this already seems promising.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Hamstring’s cooldown has been increased to 20s.
    -Jinjaah
    You have got to be kidding me. Even with the other changes to the trait, this is absurd. Weavers are going to have a field day kiting Champions.

    Once again Turbine changes skills that didn't need to be changed.
    [CENTER][SIZE="1"][COLOR="SlateGray"]
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  10. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Asperity View Post
    You have got to be kidding me. Even with the other changes to the trait, this is absurd. Weavers are going to have a field day kiting Champions.

    Once again Turbine changes skills that didn't need to be changed.
    - Sprint CD changes
    - Champion's Duel
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asperity View Post
    You have got to be kidding me. Even with the other changes to the trait, this is absurd. Weavers are going to have a field day kiting Champions.

    Once again Turbine changes skills that didn't need to be changed.
    With the current state of WTE, I must disagree.

  12. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    General
    - Hamstring’s cooldown has been increased to 20s. Its slow duration has been lowered to 8s, down from 20s.
    As Giliodor has already said these changes do look promising. However what's the reasoning for the hamstring change? It will have a large impact in pvmp for the solo/small group especially with many other classes having 100% uptime slows.

    Also will we be getting fast skills? You mentioned it may be something you'll look into.
    Rakanor R12 Reaver - Trin R11 Champion

  13. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Hey All,

    So here is a list of the following changes coming to the champion for 13.1. There may be a few more on the way but we are weighing the possibility of moving them to update 14 for a few reasons that we don't need to get into at this moment. These changes are not a means to be the fix all problems with the berserker (as you can see the pip consumption changes are not included for now) but are meant to address some concerns with damage and other issues brought up in this thread:
    So to be clear we can expect that u13.1 gives us these things, and anything not listed here will come un U14?

    Champion:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Fear Nothing Now removes PDFW not just fear. Cooldown has been reduced to 45 seconds, down from 3 minutes.
    good but compared to other freeps still very weak. 1 removal every 45 seconds compared to most freeps who can remove multiple PDFWs on 5-20 second cooldowns.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Blood Rage and its improved version are now immediate skills.
    awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Wild Attack is now considered a Strike skill. All bonuses and procs affecting strike skills work with this skill.
    awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Hamstring’s cooldown has been increased to 20s. Its slow duration has been lowered to 8s, down from 20s.
    Nerf for no reason, unless you are revamping all slows across the board for freeps and creeps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Emboldened Blades has a 100% chance to apply its buff, up from 20%
    Might make for more dynamic rotations. Will have to try this out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Devastating Strike now increases enemy incoming melee damage by +10% instead of debuffing miss chance.
    interesting, but not a necessary change. Will be better for pve i guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    -wild swings:
    - Critical Chance buff from the final rank now lasts for 10s, up from 6s.
    awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Vicious Strikes:
    - Now increases the Critical Chance of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Strong Armed Swings:
    - Now affects the damage of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Deep Strikes:
    - Deep Strikes bleed is now based off your implements dps and has been greatly increased in potency.
    awesome, though i hope rend is still a much more potent bleed after tier 5 so i hope it gets love if this thing becomes quite powerful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Controlled Burn:
    - Increased duration of effect to 30s, up from 20s.
    - Decreased cooldown to 90s, down from 120s.
    awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Athletic:
    - Each rank reduces the cooldown of Sprint by 40s, up from 10s.
    Ok, I have beef with this one. Sprint is such an advantage in the moors that I now feel I HAVE to trait red because of this change. Please consider changing the base sprint cd to 3 minutes and keep this at 10 seconds per trait, maybe 15. (yellow champs get 3 min cd, red champs get 2 min 15 sec cd).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Hamstrung:
    - Ranks 1 through 4 increases the duration of the slow by 1s. Max rank enables hamstring to knock down its target for 3s.
    So to clarify, with 5 trait points we can change hamstring's duration from 8 seconds to 12 seconds? That's 10 trait points if in another spec. That doesn't seem very useful that we arent even getting back to where we started. I would have rather kept the root honestly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Renewing Strikes:
    - Increased proc chance to 20%, up from 10%.
    Awesome.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - CBR now lasts for 20s, up from 15s.
    Awesome.

    Overall, thanks for the update, and is there any chance U13.1 is getting any yellow line love? I understand if not.
    Last edited by mrfigglesworth; Apr 23 2014 at 02:58 PM.

  14. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Hey All,

    So here is a list of the following changes coming to the champion for 13.1. There may be a few more on the way but we are weighing the possibility of moving them to update 14 for a few reasons that we don't need to get into at this moment. These changes are not a means to be the fix all problems with the berserker (as you can see the pip consumption changes are not included for now) but are meant to address some concerns with damage and other issues brought up in this thread:

    Champion:

    General
    - Fear Nothing Now removes PDFW not just fear. Cooldown has been reduced to 45 seconds, down from 3 minutes.
    - Blood Rage and its improved version are now immediate skills.
    - Wild Attack is now considered a Strike skill. All bonuses and procs affecting strike skills work with this skill.
    - Hamstring’s cooldown has been increased to 20s. Its slow duration has been lowered to 8s, down from 20s.
    - Blood Rage is now an immediate skill.

    Berserker
    Specialization changes:
    - Emboldened Blades has a 100% chance to apply its buff, up from 20%
    - Devastating Strike now increases enemy incoming melee damage by +10% instead of debuffing miss chance.
    Trait Changes:
    - Wild Swings:
    - Critical Chance buff from the final rank now lasts for 10s, up from 6s.
    - Vicious Strikes:
    - Now increases the Critical Chance of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    - Strong Armed Swings:
    - Now affects the damage of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    - Deep Strikes:
    - Deep Strikes bleed is now based off your implements dps and has been greatly increased in potency.
    - Controlled Burn:
    - Increased duration of effect to 30s, up from 20s.
    - Decreased cooldown to 90s, down from 120s.
    - Athletic:
    - Each rank reduces the cooldown of Sprint by 40s, up from 10s.
    - Hamstrung:
    - Ranks 1 through 4 increases the duration of the slow by 1s. Max rank enables hamstring to knock down its target for 3s.
    - Renewing Strikes:
    - Increased proc chance to 20%, up from 10%.
    Specialization Trait Changes:
    - Continuous Blood Rage
    - Continuous Blood Rage is now an immediate skill.
    - CBR now lasts for 20s, up from 15s.

    Apologies for the formatting, it looked really nice in my document but as you all know, forums don't like formatting sometimes.

    -Jinjaah
    all this looks good but why can't fear nothing cooldown be 5 seconds like it is on the guardian or does the guardian still have the OP skill for removing fear,wound,disease,poison also the hamstring change hurts a lot

  15. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    good but compared to other freeps still very weak. 1 removal every 45 seconds compared to most freeps who can remove multiple PDFWs on 5-20 second cooldowns.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen1981 View Post
    all this looks good but why can't fear nothing cooldown be 5 seconds like it is on the guardian or does the guardian still have the OP skill for removing fear,wound,disease,poison also the hamstring change hurts a lot
    The fact that other classes have OP abilities, doesn't mean Champ has to get them as well. Just nerf the other ones ^^
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  16. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Hey All,

    So here is a list of the following changes coming to the champion for 13.1. There may be a few more on the way but we are weighing the possibility of moving them to update 14 for a few reasons that we don't need to get into at this moment. These changes are not a means to be the fix all problems with the berserker (as you can see the pip consumption changes are not included for now) but are meant to address some concerns with damage and other issues brought up in this thread:

    Champion:

    General
    - Fear Nothing Now removes PDFW not just fear. Cooldown has been reduced to 45 seconds, down from 3 minutes.
    - Blood Rage and its improved version are now immediate skills.
    - Wild Attack is now considered a Strike skill. All bonuses and procs affecting strike skills work with this skill.
    - Hamstring’s cooldown has been increased to 20s. Its slow duration has been lowered to 8s, down from 20s.
    - Blood Rage is now an immediate skill.
    Fear Nothing is a nice change.

    If Maxed Legacy is still -30, thats 15s CD for +2 pips... Not horrid... Could we get it moved to an immediate skill?

    Wild Attack gets some major love, thats +10% Damage +10% Crit +25% crit damage for Wild.

    Not a fan of Hamstring... If Legacy stays the same, thats +10 for Legacy +4 for Trait. So 22s Duration on a 20s CD (for a pretty heavy investment.) also 3s KD...
    Does KD give anything better than a stun? That's a short short KD.

    Berserker
    Specialization changes:
    - Emboldened Blades has a 100% chance to apply its buff, up from 20%
    Is EB intended to "cash out" on crit? I've kept it at T5 through multiple RM crits, and lost it on a single RM crit...
    - Devastating Strike now increases enemy incoming melee damage by +10% instead of debuffing miss chance.
    I like this, makes more sense than Miss makes us more useful in single target boss fights. Damage is going to be even more junk compared to buffed Wild.
    Trait Changes:
    - Wild Swings:
    - Critical Chance buff from the final rank now lasts for 10s, up from 6s.
    I like this, should be easier to keep it up while moving.
    - Vicious Strikes:
    - Now increases the Critical Chance of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    - Strong Armed Swings:
    - Now affects the damage of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    - Deep Strikes:
    - Deep Strikes bleed is now based off your implements dps and has been greatly increased in potency.
    This could be a nice boost to Red Line DPS. But honestly I don't see it getting champs into the same ballpark that Mini/RK/Burg/Hunts play when it comes to ST damage.
    - Controlled Burn:
    - Increased duration of effect to 30s, up from 20s.
    - Decreased cooldown to 90s, down from 120s.
    It's getting better, still nothing I am going to fall in love with.
    - Athletic:
    - Each rank reduces the cooldown of Sprint by 40s, up from 10s.
    - Hamstrung:
    - Ranks 1 through 4 increases the duration of the slow by 1s. Max rank enables hamstring to knock down its target for 3s.
    - Renewing Strikes:
    - Increased proc chance to 20%, up from 10%.
    Specialization Trait Changes:
    - Continuous Blood Rage
    - Continuous Blood Rage is now an immediate skill.
    - CBR now lasts for 20s, up from 15s.

    Apologies for the formatting, it looked really nice in my document but as you all know, forums don't like formatting sometimes.

    -Jinjaah
    if you put it in a [code] block that sometimes works
    Ararax

  17. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    The fact that other classes have OP abilities, doesn't mean Champ has to get them as well. Just nerf the other ones ^^
    good luck i doubt they will ever change it for the other classes

  18. #93
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Couple general responses:

    - The hamstring cooldown change is something that we could still revisit, in part with the new knockdown added via the trait, we wanted it to be a more compelling choice and not be a skill you spammed to keep someone perm. slowed.

    - Sprint base cooldown could come down some, just need to think about all the things that touch it before we do, but I don't think its unreasonable for the base to come down, and the trait get a slight reduction in what it gives per rank.

    - Fear nothing cooldown can also be reduced via a legacy by I believe 30 seconds so keep that in mind.


    -Jinjaah

  19. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    The fact that other classes have OP abilities, doesn't mean Champ has to get them as well. Just nerf the other ones ^^
    I'm not opposed to nerfing all the other freeps' choices, and I did not consider the legacy but it seems backwards to have a semi potent skill turn into a very worthwhile one due to a legacy.

  20. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - The hamstring cooldown change is something that we could still revisit, in part with the new knockdown added via the trait, we wanted it to be a more compelling choice and not be a skill you spammed to keep someone perm. slowed.
    That's a great option, but as I said, if it's a change champs must live with please don't allow reavers bas and wargs to keep it up full time either, nor other freepside classes with perma slows.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Fear nothing cooldown can also be reduced via a legacy by I believe 30 seconds so keep that in mind.
    yeah forgot about the legacy but like I said it's only a competitive skill with the legacy, which is backwards imo.

  21. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    That's a great option, but as I said, if it's a change champs must live with please don't allow reavers bas and wargs to keep it up full time either, nor other freepside classes with perma slows.




    yeah forgot about the legacy but like I said it's only a competitive skill with the legacy, which is backwards imo.
    It also gives 2 pips, so 2 pips on 15s CD. Thats kind of a DPS skill there (if only it was immediate..)
    Ararax

  22. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Couple general responses:

    - The hamstring cooldown change is something that we could still revisit, in part with the new knockdown added via the trait, we wanted it to be a more compelling choice and not be a skill you spammed to keep someone perm. slowed.

    -Jinjaah
    Just a general question, is there an advantage of Knockdown vs Stun? The wake up shake up animation? Or is it just a 3s Stun? Nevermind, just an unpottable version.
    Last edited by ararax2; Apr 23 2014 at 03:25 PM.
    Ararax

  23. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Couple general responses:

    - The hamstring cooldown change is something that we could still revisit, in part with the new knockdown added via the trait, we wanted it to be a more compelling choice and not be a skill you spammed to keep someone perm. slowed.

    - Sprint base cooldown could come down some, just need to think about all the things that touch it before we do, but I don't think its unreasonable for the base to come down, and the trait get a slight reduction in what it gives per rank.

    - Fear nothing cooldown can also be reduced via a legacy by I believe 30 seconds so keep that in mind.


    -Jinjaah
    you can't use the same logic with fear nothing with the legacy since we have other classes with a very short cooldown and don't have to use a legacy for it
    Last edited by Stephen1981; Apr 23 2014 at 03:23 PM.

  24. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by ararax2 View Post
    It also gives 2 pips, so 2 pips on 15s CD. Thats kind of a DPS skill there (if only it was immediate..)
    i be willing to lose the 2 pips on it if they take the cooldown real low

  25. #100

    Feedback on listed Champion changes for 13.1

    Before I go any further, I should clarify that what I'm posting here is coming from my personal view that the ideal Berserker specialization would be able to support two distinct playstyles:

    1) sustained crit-based DPS, involving rotations through multi-hit Strike skills such as Brutal Strikes and Ferocious Strikes, and using buff skills like Controlled Burn and Champion's Challenge to increase the damage of skill rotations generally as well as ICPR.

    2) cash-out crit-based DPS, involving primary focus on Remorseless Strike and Merciful Strike, using other Strike skills as secondary DPS while tiering up Emboldened Blades, and timing the use of buff skills like Controlled Burn and Champion's Challenge to inflict as much damage as possible with Remorseless Strike and Merciful Strike (in other words "build up and attack").

    With that said, here's my thoughts on the Champion changes for 13.1 you just posted:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    General
    - Fear Nothing Now removes PDFW not just fear. Cooldown has been reduced to 45 seconds, down from 3 minutes.
    - Blood Rage and its improved version are now immediate skills.
    - Wild Attack is now considered a Strike skill. All bonuses and procs affecting strike skills work with this skill.
    - Hamstring’s cooldown has been increased to 20s. Its slow duration has been lowered to 8s, down from 20s.
    - Blood Rage is now an immediate skill.
    Fear Nothing: I think the cooldown change to Fear Nothing is a good call, though I find the idea of it removing all types of status effects interesting -- on the other hand, I'm assuming this also allows it to remove disarm, so 45 seconds feels like a decently balanced cooldown for that sort of skill. However, will the Fear Nothing skill cooldown legacy be adjusted accordingly, and will the skill still provide 2 Fervour pips on use in light of this?

    Blood Rage/Continuous Blood Rage: Changing these to be immediate skills is a good call IMHO, though I do see potential issues if someone accidently triggers the macro prevention changes when using this skill (and therefore gets nothing except the skill being put on cooldown). I still think the skill buffs should be adjusted a bit, as in its current iteration we only get an extra 5 seconds of immunity if we recover from something like a stun, and sacrificing our ability to recover from crowd-control feels too costly even compared to the -75% Power Cost buff we get throughout its duration (doubly so given how easily we can recover power by using our Second Wind skill at full Fervour) -- on the other hand, now that I see the buff duration has been extended to 20 seconds in the specialization trait changes below, I think this is a bit better balanced.

    Wild Attack: Now this sounds like a really good idea. Having Wild Attack benefit from all bonuses and procs affecting Strike skills should therefore let us continue to build this skill in the direction we want to as we level, depending on what traits we focus on in the Berserker tree: we could increase its chance to score a critical hit with Vicious Strikes (meaning we can use the crit chance buff from maxing out Wild Swings even more often), increase its base damage through investing in the Strong Armed Swings trait, increase its critical damage multiplier through Deadly Strikes, or even add a bleed with Deep Strikes -- and along with all Strike skill procs gained from trait set bonuses in the Berserker specialization, Wild Attack continues to grow more powerful and become even more useful as we continue to level. I like this sort of idea, since this would mean Wild Attack as a skill effectively levels up as we do, and particularly because it gives a good reason to more carefully consider just what we spend our trait points on in the Berserker tree.

    Hamstring: While I will miss being able to chain slow a target, I don't think I tend to use this skill too often anyway, save in specific circumstances. On the other hand, the changes to the Hamstrung trait listed below I find to be very interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Berserker
    Specialization changes:
    - Emboldened Blades has a 100% chance to apply its buff, up from 20%
    - Devastating Strike now increases enemy incoming melee damage by +10% instead of debuffing miss chance.
    Emboldened Blades: While I can see how changing the proc chance for Emboldened Blades to 100% would be quite useful for a Champion using a cash-out crit DPS playstyle, does this also mean that clearing the entire buff when scoring critical or devastating critical hits with Remorseless Strike instead of the current tier is WAI? The skill description of Remorseless Strike has always struck me as being supposed to remove only the current tier on crits.

    Devastating Strike: An incoming melee damage debuff sounds interesting, and I can see how that would be less constrained situationally compared to the miss chance (currently on Live, I tend to use the skill primarily for Fervour pip generation instead of the miss chance) -- this sort of debuff could soften up a target right before moving into a skill rotation, or set up a target before inflicting massive damage with Remorseless Strike. I think this is a good change, personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Trait Changes:
    - Wild Swings:
    - Critical Chance buff from the final rank now lasts for 10s, up from 6s.
    - Vicious Strikes:
    - Now increases the Critical Chance of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    - Strong Armed Swings:
    - Now affects the damage of all strikes, not just additional strikes.
    - Deep Strikes:
    - Deep Strikes bleed is now based off your implements dps and has been greatly increased in potency.
    - Controlled Burn:
    - Increased duration of effect to 30s, up from 20s.
    - Decreased cooldown to 90s, down from 120s.
    - Athletic:
    - Each rank reduces the cooldown of Sprint by 40s, up from 10s.
    - Hamstrung:
    - Ranks 1 through 4 increases the duration of the slow by 1s. Max rank enables hamstring to knock down its target for 3s.
    Wild Swings: A good change personally, since this should let us get a bit more out of the crit chance buff whenever we score a critical with Wild Attack -- long enough to land a decent skill rotation.

    Vicious Strikes/Strong Armed Swings: Both of these are good changes IMHO, particularly because this should let both dual-wield and two-handed weapons benefit considerably from them -- and as I mentioned in my thoughts on the changes to Wild Attack above, I like how these traits will mesh well with that skill.

    Deep Strikes: Given how small the bleed currently is on Live, I think increasing the bleed is a pretty good change -- though I still think having the first two ranks only affect the additional Strike skill idea I mentioned in my last post would work better, to give us a bit more control over when we want to inflict a bleed (and add a little variety to potential rotations in the Berserker specialization).

    Controlled Burn: From the perspective of this being a general-purpose self buff skill, I think increasing its duration and decreasing its cooldown counter-balances the potency of its buffs a bit better as compared to its current iteration on Live. 30 seconds sounds like a decent duration for assisting with skill rotations, or simply increasing the damage of cash-out skills like Remorseless Strike crits.

    Athletic: Considering how small the benefits of investing this trait currently are on Live (except for the "Your next attack will stun your target." benefit from maxing it out -- I've found some good situational use for this), increasing the cooldown reduction feels like a very good change. Being able to use this to stun with skills like Champion's Challenge, True Heroics, and Ebbing Ire is hopefully going to still stay in... right?

    Hamstrung: With the changes to Hamstring, adjusting the function of this trait to increase its slow duration makes sense -- but are you actually saying maxing out the trait will allow it to inflict a knockdown and not a stun? If so, I'm really going to enjoy this when 13.1 reaches Live. That alone should allow this skill to have a lot of potential, as I think stun/daze immunity is still considered separate from knockdown immunity on specific mobs and bosses (though I may be wrong on this). If this is the case, I see some unique situational use for Champions through this skill -- maybe even a reason to grab this instead of the "Your next attack will stun your target." buff from maxing out Athletic.

    EDIT: So this trait really is going to give Hamstring a knockdown? I'm going to enjoy this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Specialization Trait Changes:
    - Renewing Strikes
    - Increased proc chance to 20%, up from 10%.
    - Continuous Blood Rage
    - Continuous Blood Rage is now an immediate skill.
    - CBR now lasts for 20s, up from 15s.
    Renewing Strikes: Considering how rarely this proc seems to be occuring on Live, I think this is a good change which should give us a bit more survivability.

    Continuous Blood Rage: As I said above, I think changing this to be an immediate skill is a good call -- and now that I see it, having it last for 20 seconds rather than 15.

    Overall, I think the changes here are a good step in the right direction for the Berserker specialization. As I mentioned briefly above, I still think adding an additional Strike skill would give some more variety to potential skill rotations (and help keep our options from feeling too limited) -- as well as improving Merciful Strike in some way, an idea which I elaborated further on in my last post -- but other than that, I like what I see here.
    Last edited by RingOfFire; Apr 23 2014 at 03:42 PM. Reason: Updated after Jinjaah's last post
    [B][I]One less Orc in the world is a good thing, and one less leader among the Orcs is a great thing.[/I][/B]

 

 
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