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  1. #176
    I did some quick tests on BR, and parsed in the high 5000's on the level 75 dummy, compared to a best of about 4800 on live (that was from before the nerf of 10 to 8 for PM from Might). I still did a little better in yellow (they finally fixed the lack of a Fervour damage bonus to the 2nd strike of Raging Blade with a 2h weapon), but my legendaries are completely AOE focused, so you could probably do better ST in red with proper legendaries and a optimized rotation. Deep Strikes was made much stronger, it appears they gave it the Tier 5 Rend Bleed, my bleed was 787 every 2 seconds for 10 seconds, about the same as my Tier 5 Rend.

    Overall it is not enough but is a start, if they add an additional -5% AD to red's set bonuses, make Swift Strike/Blade a FAST skill, they then should be able to just tune the strength of Strong Arm Swings to get the proper DPS and fix most of reds problems.

  2. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeA View Post
    Overall it is not enough but is a start, if they add an additional -5% AD to red's set bonuses, make Swift Strike/Blade a FAST skill, they then should be able to just tune the strength of Strong Arm Swings to get the proper DPS and fix most of reds problems.
    False, just SS wouldn't fix the issues at all. It's all skills or nothing, imo.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  3. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeA View Post
    ..... but my legendaries are completely AOE focused, so you could probably do better ST in red with proper legendaries and a optimized rotation.
    Eghh... I sense another Legacy grind in my future.

    I'm fully AoE and survival traited with legacies right now.
    Borgorid of Arkenstone - Leithiani Officer
    r11 - Champ , r8 - Mini,

  4. #179
    Making all skills FAST skills would be a stupid hack, it was a stupid hack with Guards and Burgs as well.





    Edit.: Quoted my own post by mistake, removed.
    Last edited by MikeA; Apr 30 2014 at 03:17 PM.

  5. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeA View Post
    Making all skills FAST skills would be a stupid hack, it was a stupid hack with Guards and Burgs as well.
    Fast skills would be perfect. Fast skills would bring us to reasonable (yet low) DPS numbers.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  6. #181
    i'm wholesale against fast skills as well.

  7. #182

    Update 13.1 P1 (Bullroarer) Feedback

    I just finished some 1v1's back on Bullroarer with a number of freeps and creeps (going up against a live opponent gives me a fresh perspective), and I have some further thoughts on the Berserker specialization. Like I said in an earlier post, I think having two distinct playstyles (rotation-focused using multi-hit skills, and cash-out using Remorseless Strike and Merciful Strike) is ideal -- so with the changes in 13.1 in mind, I believe the following would improve things further:

    • Berserker:
      • Ferocious Strikes (skill): reduce the delay after skill execution. The duration of time before another normal (not Immediate or Fast) skill can be executed is noticably higher than any other Champion skill I am aware of. Lowering this would definitely be an improvement to the skill, IMHO.
      • Merciful Minded (trait): add an additional benefit to maxing out the trait. If the Berserker specialization is to have two distinct playstyles, Remorseless Strike and Merciful Strike seem to be the two heavy-hitting skills in our arsenal. If Merciful Minded were to add a proc to Remorseless Strike crits affecting Merciful Strike in some way (ie. immediately bringing the skill off cooldown and/or a proc temporarily removing the target max morale limit), the skills look as though they would fit well together when it comes to burst DPS.
      • Merciful Strike (skill): increase damage. The skill is roughly similar in all specializations currently (with the exception of the 13.1 changes, since Merciful Strike only hits once and therefore would benefit from them), and is a bit underwhelming for a single-target specialization. Following the train of thought above, increasing its base damage and/or increasing the damage it deals when a target is under a specific morale threshold (separate from the maximum target morale limit) would fit well for a potential execute skill follow-up to Remorseless Strike.
      • In general (Strike skills): change at least some Strike skills to function as Fast skills, or keep the delay after Strike skill uses reasonably low -- preferably the latter, to allow these skills to benefit from Attack Duration reduction buffs.

    • Additional skill:
      • To prevent skill rotations in the Berserker specialization from getting too bland (and provide an alternative to Remorseless Strike when other strike skills are on cooldown), another multi-hit strike skill seems appropiate. Perhaps a skill acquired as a mid-tier trait tree option, but on a lower tier than Ferocious Strikes? And if this is done, maybe swapping the positions of Merciful Minded and Ferocious Strikes to compensate?
      • Like I mentioned in a previous post, I have a personal idea in regards to this:


    Serrated Strikes
    Skill Type: Harmful, Strike
    Range: [STANDARD_MELEE_RANGE]
    Radius: 2.5 meters (maybe?)

    Three strikes on a target plus two others
    in a short radius centered on the target,
    and inflicts a bleed on all affected targets
    which tiers up with each successful hit to
    a maximum of three.

    On all targets:

    Dual-wielding:
    Main-hand Weapon + Bonus Damage
    Main-hand Weapon + Bonus Damage
    Off-hand Weapon + Bonus Damage


    Two-handed weapon:
    Main-hand Weapon + Bonus Damage
    Main-hand Weapon + Bonus Damage
    Main-hand Weapon + Bonus Damage


    Mechanically, I'm thinking a skill functioning similarily to Horn of Champions in how the AoE radius and the actual range are separate from each other, resulting in an AoE centered on the target itself instead of a PBAoE centered on the Champion -- the end result being a pseudo-AoE which has the range of, and is considered as, a Strike skill. Along with this, I'm also thinking it would be a good idea to change the Deep Strikes trait to only allow other Strike skills to cause bleeds on crits when the trait is maxed out, while only increasing the bleed damage of this skill in the first two ranks of the trait.

    • Deadly Storm:
      • Blade Storm (skill): increase damage. The Deadly Storm trait associated with Blade Wall increases its damage beyond Blade Storm, and is easily accessible in the second tier of the tree -- on top of Blade Wall having no Fervour pip cost, maxing this trait out leaves Blade Storm relatively useless in comparison IMHO. I think a simple increase to the skill's damage should better balance things out.
      • Born for Combat (skill): add a buff of some kind to the skill (ie. automatically trigger Champion's Advantage and/or Flurry), and perhaps change how the prerequisite stacks of the Born for Combat buff are gained (acquired on successful Blade skill hits, maybe?).

    • General:
      • Sprint (skill)/Athletic (trait): rebalance cooldown and trait cooldown reduction. The increase to the skill cooldown gained through the Athletic trait is certainly nice, but a lower base cooldown for the skill seems to fit better IMHO. Of course, if the base cooldown were reduced, then the reduction from Athletic would probably be a bit too much without readjustment to counter-balance it.
    Last edited by RingOfFire; Apr 30 2014 at 04:29 PM.
    [B][I]One less Orc in the world is a good thing, and one less leader among the Orcs is a great thing.[/I][/B]

  8. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeA View Post
    Making all skills FAST skills would be a stupid hack, it was a stupid hack with Guards and Burgs as well.
    I agree, not trying to lobby for Champions to receive all their skills as fast skills. But you have to admit the disparity comes from that. If guards, burgs, and all creeps were adjusted that way then Champions would actually be in a good spot.

  9. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Apache140 View Post
    I agree, not trying to lobby for Champions to receive all their skills as fast skills. But you have to admit the disparity comes from that. If guards, burgs, and all creeps were adjusted that way then Champions would actually be in a good spot.
    I agree as well. Fast skills would be nice, but simply reducing the delay after each skill execution would be better -- primarily because that lets us benefit from Attack Duration reduction buffs (ie. Precise Strikes buff, Captain buffs, specific Legendary Item relics). For an example, Remorseless Strike has a much shorter duration of time after executing the skill before another one can be used, while Ferocious Strikes has an unusually long delay.

    If all our skills were Fast, then that would remove any sort of benefit we could get from those sorts of buffs, and I believe that would also result in dual-wielding and two-handed weapon rotations having the same pace to them. If the delay were adjusted instead, then that would leave room for more variety in terms of skill damage and pace of rotation depending on the weapon(s) used.
    [B][I]One less Orc in the world is a good thing, and one less leader among the Orcs is a great thing.[/I][/B]

  10. #185
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    entirely against the fast skill gimmick for obvious reasons, It shouldn't be too hard to either grant us flurry as a passive or extend precise strikes to 20-30s as a buff.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  11. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by RingOfFire View Post
    I agree as well. Fast skills would be nice, but simply reducing the delay after each skill execution would be better -- primarily because that lets us benefit from Attack Duration reduction buffs (ie. Precise Strikes buff, Captain buffs, specific Legendary Item relics). For an example, Remorseless Strike has a much shorter duration of time after executing the skill before another one can be used, while Ferocious Strikes has an unusually long delay.

    If all our skills were Fast, then that would remove any sort of benefit we could get from those sorts of buffs, and I believe that would also result in dual-wielding and two-handed weapon rotations having the same pace to them. If the delay were adjusted instead, then that would leave room for more variety in terms of skill damage and pace of rotation depending on the weapon(s) used.
    I don't get why this keeps on being repeated. Fast skills are still affected by attack duration buffs and debuffs.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  12. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I don't get why this keeps on being repeated. Fast skills are still affected by attack duration buffs and debuffs.
    Attack duration is controlled by the post animation skill delay, the animation itself doesn't change. A FAST sklls ignores this delay, but doesn't get rid of it, so with a mixture of normal and FAST skills it is still effected by -AD buffs, but if all skills where FAST all skill delays would be ignored and -AD buffs would have no effect beyond auto attacks.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by RingOfFire View Post
    I agree as well. Fast skills would be nice, but simply reducing the delay after each skill execution would be better -- primarily because that lets us benefit from Attack Duration reduction buffs (ie. Precise Strikes buff, Captain buffs, specific Legendary Item relics). For an example, Remorseless Strike has a much shorter duration of time after executing the skill before another one can be used, while Ferocious Strikes has an unusually long delay.

    If all our skills were Fast, then that would remove any sort of benefit we could get from those sorts of buffs, and I believe that would also result in dual-wielding and two-handed weapon rotations having the same pace to them. If the delay were adjusted instead, then that would leave room for more variety in terms of skill damage and pace of rotation depending on the weapon(s) used.
    Small thing worth noting is that CBR is now an immediate skill which means that it can be used as well as clobber to interrupt the animation on Fero strikes - small thing but would mean that most fero animations can be interrupted.

    Shumzuda R11 Blackarrow - Shumheals R6 Defiler - Shumzud R6 Warg Beardhug R9 Champion - Majeika R8 LM - Chuffnel Burglar
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  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shumzuda View Post
    Small thing worth noting is that CBR is now an immediate skill which means that it can be used as well as clobber to interrupt the animation on Fero strikes - small thing but would mean that most fero animations can be interrupted.
    Which means nothing, as the post animation delay will still exist interrupted or no. And we only have merciful strike to speed up that delay.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  15. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeA View Post
    Attack duration is controlled by the post animation skill delay, the animation itself doesn't change. A FAST sklls ignores this delay, but doesn't get rid of it, so with a mixture of normal and FAST skills it is still effected by -AD buffs, but if all skills where FAST all skill delays would be ignored and -AD buffs would have no effect beyond auto attacks.
    While I haven't taken the time to test out any freep classes (burg or guard) I have done extensive testing with the a reaver with and without the sudden strikes trait equipped, and there is a very measurable difference with and without it. The trait is also bugged to give +10% to attack duration rather than -10%, but it is noticeable nonetheless.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  16. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    While I haven't taken the time to test out any freep classes (burg or guard) I have done extensive testing with the a reaver with and without the sudden strikes trait equipped, and there is a very measurable difference with and without it. The trait is also bugged to give +10% to attack duration rather than -10%, but it is noticeable nonetheless.
    So... Does attack duration affect animation time? Because that's what's bugged about Quick Strikes/Aura of Command; longer animations.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  17. #192
    I took a look to the current Champion changes on BR. I have not played on BR, so these are just hypotethical thoughts and assumptions and expectations and such.

    - - -

    Shortly, red line seems to receive a good boost, and it looks like it will become de facto line to run a Champion (PvE DPS and PvP). First, as AoE is not allowed always, it will be better to stay in ST DPS (if your output is high enough), if you have any doubts (e.g. having reflecting mobs in next wave, in most instance challenges, in 'moors if there is danger spiders popping TC). Second, with Hamstring CD & duration nerf + no changes to Sprint CD + all the traits related to these are in red line, it seems to be the most appealing line for PvP.

    I think Fear Nothing changes (PDFW + CD) is definitely good, greatly improving our performance both when tanking and in 'moors. Also, changing BR/CBR to immediate skill sounds a good change.

    - - -

    There is absolutely nothing wrong tweaking red line more viable choice for Champions, although I can see those changes shifting Champions from yellow to red. Furthermore, there are very nice ideas and implementations in post-HD Champion, which I like very much. But I can't help myself missing the abilities to react sudden events in-combat. Here are some quick ideas I might consider:

    * Moving PvP related traits (Sprint and Hamstring) lower in red line could give us choice to choose the line to run in Ettens. Purely wonderful 'Champions Duel' alone will make red line appealing to any PvP Champion. In the current situation, it is already difficult to fight against a decent Blackarrow, as one evaded Hamstring (e.g. during BA MT) will make BA free to gain distance and shoot us dead without any danger being hit. Only red-line Champion with Champions Duel have real possibilities to catch the BA again, assuming that you needed Sprint to catch the BA at first place.

    * EDIT: How about making Horn of Gondor a ranged attack like Horn of Champions? Then we would have one skill to try to catch ranged classes.

    * EDIT: Or how about slow debuff, or Speed buff (+immunity against slows) to Champions Challenge?

    * EDIT: Or, if not anything, make Hamstring ranged attack? If not even that, how about slow debuff on Let Fly?

    * I could still hope togglable 'Throttle' button (name it: "Careful Now!") for AoE Champion, to turn off AoE in-combat when it will hurt the team efforts. There is no need to make yellow line to compete against red line in ST DPS, but without a possibility to turn off AoE will make red line the best choice to many PvE content, and yellow line a nifty specialty for some content. Throttle button could even nerf damage down a bit - it would not be there to make us ST specialists.

    * Another solution could be such that you could turn your AoE attacks such that they hit everything else but the target; this way, a Champion who knows what to do, could choose the target wisely and use AoE in its full potential to help team efforts in many (altought not all) situations.

    * As tanks, we miss non-damaging AoE taunts (or competitive heals to generate aggro), the only one being True Heroics with long CD. It makes pretty risky to tank certain content if your chances to get mobs (which you can't kill) off the healer are Raging Blade and such

    * Off-tanking has currently its problems, as you are all the time competing with main tank; it would not hurt to get a togglable skill to turn on/off the extra threat generation when running blue.

    - - -

    I admit that many of these are not game-breaking features, as most situations can be dealt in other ways. For example, in some situations & groups, you can have off-tank to pull out the mobs you are not allowed to hurt, or you can try to have rotation like Wild Attack + Hamstring (or any other common ST strikes) as long as you're not allowed to AoE. And it is always possible to give up AoE and go red.

    I just hope to get back some in-combat abilities to react situations, which made pre-HD Champion so wonderful class to examine and learn, and to make both yellow and red viable choice for DPS Champions. EDIT: Although my humble opinion is that splitting DPS line to two parts (ST & AoE) was not the wisest decision in the first place.
    Last edited by TamX; May 05 2014 at 11:24 AM.
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