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  1. #1

    Champion suggsestion

    I have voiced my concern, that the ST line fervour generation feels cluncky and unfamiliar, therefore I would like to put this suggsestion out there:

    Adding +1 fervour on critical to maxed Wild-attack trait
    Adding +1 fervour (on critical) to maxed Blade-wall trait

    I feel like I am very reliant on Battle-frenzy
    2ndly why I would love BW to add fervour is that before the class revamp, a champion would decide wheather to use Swift-strike or Blade-wall depending if they use DW or 2H.
    Since Swift-strike generates fervour nowdays, but BW does not, I feel restricted to swift-strike due to the stated fact that fervour generation is an uphill battle in the first place.

    -morva
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  2. #2
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    Personally I feel that with attack duration fixed, fervour generation won't be such a problem. Wild Attack and Swift Strike work great when not waiting 2 seconds between each skill play. There's a massive different between being unable to build fervour because you have a lack of builders, or being unable to build fervour because you simply cannot get skills off fast enough. If they were to give more fervour (our base skills) then once AD is fixed, we'll never have to try to build it.

    Personally I'd like to see some of our "big" hitters damage bumped up to some substantial levels, and our AD fixed. As well as a few quality of life improvements like Fight On not sucking (give us back old fight on, for the love of god!!), having Dire Need (that heals more than a morale pot) in any spec, our old bracing attack, fixing true heroics so you don't blow a 5min CD for 10% crit chance for a whopping 12 seconds. There's lots that needs fixing before the fundamental skills we already have need to change, imo.

    Just my 2 cents. Everyone feels differently about the way our class should be. I'd like to see it restored to some of it's former glory, without the stupid OP-ness, bubble spamming, etc. etc.

    Let the #1 melee dps class actually be in the top ...8 classes for dps in red line.

  3. #3
    you have rend in yellow line, devastating strike in red line, and bracing attack in blue line(with U13) giving 2 pips on top of battle frenzy on top of swift attack and wild attack in all lines. Not sure we really need more pipgen personally.

  4. #4
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    There are some changes coming to the Champion in 13.1 which we can talk about after update 13 is out the door. It will address some damage concerns and pip consumption primarily for the Berserker. I will head over to the Champion forums in the next couple weeks to discuss these with you all.

    -Jinjaah

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    There are some changes coming to the Champion in 13.1 which we can talk about after update 13 is out the door. It will address some damage concerns and pip consumption primarily for the Berserker. I will head over to the Champion forums in the next couple weeks to discuss these with you all.

    -Jinjaah
    Thank you so much, Jinjaah.

    Is there any chance we could see Champion melee skills be converted to Fast skills? Most other melee dps classes (burglar, reaver, warden) and even non-dps melee classes (guardian) had most if not all of their skills made Fast. Without this, and with the current horrid attack duration problems champs have (especially in red line), it causes Champion combat to feel extremely slow and clunky.

    If I recall, one of the stated reasons behind the HD class revamp to make combat more fluid and more fast-paced. HD seemed to do the opposite for champs. Fast skills would be a major step in improving the fluidity of Champion combat.

  6. #6
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post
    Thank you so much, Jinjaah.

    Is there any chance we could see Champion melee skills be converted to Fast skills? Most other melee dps classes (burglar, reaver, warden) and even non-dps melee classes (guardian) had most if not all of their skills made Fast. Without this, and with the current horrid attack duration problems champs have (especially in red line), it causes Champion combat to feel extremely slow and clunky.

    If I recall, one of the stated reasons behind the HD class revamp to make combat more fluid and more fast-paced. HD seemed to do the opposite for champs. Fast skills would be a major step in improving the fluidity of Champion combat.
    We can look into this as well. The champion is a little tricky because his multi-strike skills always feel a little clunky due to the range in motion of the animation. We did some clean up of those animations to try and quicken them but a three strike attack is still going to take longer then your other single target hits. We did not pursue the fast skill option because of the lingering macro issue that has since been addressed. Now I think is a time we can go back and see what we can do to make it feel more fluid.

    -Jinjaah

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    We can look into this as well. The champion is a little tricky because his multi-strike skills always feel a little clunky due to the range in motion of the animation. We did some clean up of those animations to try and quicken them but a three strike attack is still going to take longer then your other single target hits. We did not pursue the fast skill option because of the lingering macro issue that has since been addressed. Now I think is a time we can go back and see what we can do to make it feel more fluid.

    -Jinjaah
    a good couple of candidates for the loss of clunkiness could be wild attack and devastating strike.

  8. #8
    talking about attack durations, I do agree with you mrfigglesworth, especially on swift strike. and Id like to throw CBR into the mix aswell.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    We can look into this as well. The champion is a little tricky because his multi-strike skills always feel a little clunky due to the range in motion of the animation. We did some clean up of those animations to try and quicken them but a three strike attack is still going to take longer then your other single target hits. We did not pursue the fast skill option because of the lingering macro issue that has since been addressed. Now I think is a time we can go back and see what we can do to make it feel more fluid.

    -Jinjaah
    by the way with macros and fast skills
    since the fix does it happened to me a lot that battle frenzy and sudden defence not always propertly activate,
    they go on cd and nothing else happened, no ferver, fervor generation or bubble :/
    is this a known bug?

  10. #10
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by georg112 View Post
    talking about attack durations, I do agree with you mrfigglesworth, especially on swift strike. and Id like to throw CBR into the mix aswell.
    BR and CBR will become immediate skills in the round of changes we will talk about in the near future.

    -Jinjaah

  11. #11
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malganis_Lefay View Post
    by the way with macros and fast skills
    since the fix does it happened to me a lot that battle frenzy and sudden defence not always propertly activate,
    they go on cd an nothing else happened, no ferver, fervor generation or bubble :/
    is this a known bug?
    Potentially this is a known issue depending on the context of how you are using the skill but I would bug it with some steps to reproduce just to be safe.

    -Jinjaah

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by georg112 View Post
    talking about attack durations, I do agree with you mrfigglesworth, especially on swift strike. and Id like to throw CBR into the mix aswell.
    swift strike is a fast skill though.

  13. #13
    well i click the symbol and sometimes nothing happens, there is no difference between incombat, outcombat or within an attack animation
    only thing could be that my mousebutton is hyper sensitive and so it sometimes doubleclicks immediately :/

  14. #14
    You are correct mrfiggles, I was thinking of Wild attack when writing.
    And I would still maintain my proposal of considering +fervour on crit to wild attack trait.
    I am glad CBR will turn to fast skill and the fact that champion is being looked at.
    To go even further, jinjaah I'd like to ask, if bringing back a skill similar to seeking blade is something you would consider? In the context of PvMP, it goes a long way if you can burst at the exact moment you mean to do so.
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  15. #15
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    Any chance of a cooldown revision on BR? a 1m cd reactive to skills like disarm/stun that typically have 10-15s cd's seems a bit ineffective.
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    swift strike is a fast skill though.
    merciful strike is our only fast skill.


    And though we face severe attack duration difficulties and it is plain as day that flurry needs to be a passive, not proc. Do not make all our skills fast, it would ruin the fluidity of the class (well, the current pace is pretty garbage but flipping to the other end of the spectrum isn't exactly brilliant design either.)
    Last edited by Thorandril; Apr 07 2014 at 08:01 PM.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post
    Thank you so much, Jinjaah.

    Is there any chance we could see Champion melee skills be converted to Fast skills? Most other melee dps classes (burglar, reaver, warden) and even non-dps melee classes (guardian) had most if not all of their skills made Fast. Without this, and with the current horrid attack duration problems champs have (especially in red line), it causes Champion combat to feel extremely slow and clunky.

    If I recall, one of the stated reasons behind the HD class revamp to make combat more fluid and more fast-paced. HD seemed to do the opposite for champs. Fast skills would be a major step in improving the fluidity of Champion combat.
    Warden's have 1 combat state based fast skill (critical strike) everything else is either 'normal' or in a category of it's own (masteries: which are neither fast, nor immediate, and are susceptible to attack duration effects).

    One thing to keep in mind with any more wholesale additions to the fast skills collection, which I suspect hasn't really been taken into consideration is the impact attack duration buffs and debuffs have (or don't have, as the case may be) on fast skills. Making everything creepside and the burglar class entirely fast skills has certainly been a boon to pacing for those classes, which in part makes others feel sluggish by comparison (I drool at the thought of my warden having fast gambit builders/masteries after I've played my warg, where pre-HD they always felt comparable in attack speed).

    Champs (in red line) are in a bad spot right now, and their sluggish attack speed is a huge part of this. Slapping the fast tag on all their skills would likely solve all of these pacing concerns, but at least for other classes it feels like a sweeping under the rug kind of solution. A lot of other classes have skills with massive dead time delays after using certain skills that can be quite frustrating. To me what was done with burgs and creeps with HD launch should either be done for EVERY class to put us all on an equal footing in regards to animation delays, or Devs ought to go back and take a look at all those skills and the animation dead times that plague and actualy fix them, rather than piecemeal go back and slap the fast tag on things as a given class' frustration with animation problems reaches a critical mass like we have now for champs.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    (I drool at the thought of my warden having fast gambit builders/masteries after I've played my warg, where pre-HD they always felt comparable in attack speed).
    If only wardens got their skills converted to fast skills, one can dream. It may be that all other classes are faster now, but i certainly feel like my warden doesn't attack quite as fast as it did before HD.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimrinoth View Post
    If only wardens got their skills converted to fast skills, one can dream. It may be that all other classes are faster now, but i certainly feel like my warden doesn't attack quite as fast as it did before HD.
    Our attack duration was fine using Adroit Manoeuvre. It became primarily useless with the launch of HD. -20% should be reinstated regardless of trait line.

  19. #19
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    Since this is the new "talking to Jinjaah about champs" thread, I want to make sure this doesn't get forgotten:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by J_Howell
    One thing that I think hasn't been mentioned much is Fear Nothing. I haven't played all the classes since HD, but champ is the only one I know of that still has only a single type debuff remover skill like this. Burglar's Antidote now removes any of the four flavors of debuff, and wardens got First Aid with the same functionality. I'm pretty sure Story of Courage and Muster Courage were changed in the same way, though I'm not 100% sure since I haven't done much other than crafting on my mini and captain yet. Fear Nothing should be the champion's version of this skill, rather than remaining fear-only.
    I will look into Fear Nothing in relation to other classes and will tentatively agree with you on this.

    -Jinjaah
    Note also that Fear Nothing has a cooldown about 10x longer than the superior debuff removal skills every other class has.

    My other personal pet peeve about champs is the absurd length of the True Heroics deed for new champs - 750 uses required, of a skill with a 5min cooldown that only counts for the deed when used in combat with a level-appropriate mob. My level 50 champ started this deed in January and is about half done now - all other class deeds long since completed. Fortunately my 95 champ did whatever the pre-HD version of the deed was long ago.

    Not by any means the biggest issues champs face, but they should be fixed at some point.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Warden's have 1 combat state based fast skill (critical strike) everything else is either 'normal' or in a category of it's own (masteries: which are neither fast, nor immediate, and are susceptible to attack duration effects).

    One thing to keep in mind with any more wholesale additions to the fast skills collection, which I suspect hasn't really been taken into consideration is the impact attack duration buffs and debuffs have (or don't have, as the case may be) on fast skills. Making everything creepside and the burglar class entirely fast skills has certainly been a boon to pacing for those classes, which in part makes others feel sluggish by comparison (I drool at the thought of my warden having fast gambit builders/masteries after I've played my warg, where pre-HD they always felt comparable in attack speed).

    Champs (in red line) are in a bad spot right now, and their sluggish attack speed is a huge part of this. Slapping the fast tag on all their skills would likely solve all of these pacing concerns, but at least for other classes it feels like a sweeping under the rug kind of solution. A lot of other classes have skills with massive dead time delays after using certain skills that can be quite frustrating. To me what was done with burgs and creeps with HD launch should either be done for EVERY class to put us all on an equal footing in regards to animation delays, or Devs ought to go back and take a look at all those skills and the animation dead times that plague and actualy fix them, rather than piecemeal go back and slap the fast tag on things as a given class' frustration with animation problems reaches a critical mass like we have now for champs.
    I actually posted something eerily similar to this, but my computer crashed, then I didn't bother reposting it.

    I'm actually vehemently opposed to the idea of making all skills fast skills. My reasoning is the exact same as yours - I think it's a quick and cheap band-aid that doesn't address the underlying attack duration problems. However, it's pretty clear that Jinjaah is being asked to handle a ridiculous load of work, and I think that asking him to do a serious rehaul of Champion attack durations carries with it the danger that they don't really get fixed at all, due to time constraint issues. As Rowan says, it's about getting "the most bang for your buck."

    So it's more of a selfish plea. I think it's bad for the game as a whole, but I'd rather it be done than nothing at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    We can look into this as well. The champion is a little tricky because his multi-strike skills always feel a little clunky due to the range in motion of the animation. We did some clean up of those animations to try and quicken them but a three strike attack is still going to take longer then your other single target hits.
    I'm not talking about the animation times; I understand that a three strike attack is going to take longer than single target hits. I'm talking about the delay in activation time between the end of the animation and before another non-fast skill in the queue can execute. Removing Flurry made this worse, and then giving all Fast skills to burgs/reavers/wargs/etc weakened champs even further by comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    We did not pursue the fast skill option because of the lingering macro issue that has since been addressed. Now I think is a time we can go back and see what we can do to make it feel more fluid.

    -Jinjaah
    How can this be true? I created two threads - one in the Beta forum, and one later in General Discussion - warning about the immediate skill macro exploit being useable in far more potent ways than it previously was if burgs/wargs/reavers/blackarrows/etc were changed to have all Fast skills (This exploit had existed since RoI). Both were ignored, and I know that friends within Beta tried to communicate directly with devs to warn them of this issue, and that was ignored as well. And yet, burglars/hunters/guardians/wargs/reavers/etc all made it to Live with nearly ever skill being Fast. It does not make sense that you (plural, meaning devs) were completely aware of the issue and its implications - and thus decided not to give champs Fast skills - yet allowed the horribly exploitable state of the game to be sold as an expansion pack, and then to carry on in that state for quite a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Potentially this is a known issue depending on the context of how you are using the skill but I would bug it with some steps to reproduce just to be safe.

    -Jinjaah
    Yes, it seems that the 'fix' to immediate skills is actually broken, as it appears to simply nullify an immediate skill's effects, while still putting it on cooldown, if used too quickly after another keystroke (?). It's actually pretty terrible for champs when you get a dud Battle Frenzy.

    Now, this brings me back to nearly the same point as before. This is a known issue? How, if the "fix" to immediate skill macro exploiting was known to be so broken, was it not addressed before it went Live? I can *somewhat* understand putting out a broken mechanic because it fixes a worse broken mechanic, and you need to stop the bleeding, then immediately working on fixing the fix...but there was no very quick "fix to the fix." I don't know if it's even been acknowledged until now.
    Last edited by GodOfBrandywine; Apr 07 2014 at 10:24 PM.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Potentially this is a known issue depending on the context of how you are using the skill but I would bug it with some steps to reproduce just to be safe.

    -Jinjaah
    Jinjaah, please take over as the LM developer.

    That is all, thanks.
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  22. #22
    All fast skills, you say? Yes please. That would solve pretty much everything, apart from lowish damage. 3k Ferocious on creeps... Really?
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  23. #23
    In regard to Attack Duration.

    If the goal is to tier up Attack duration and make it stay for the duration of the fight, then get rid of the timer.

    If we stay in combat, our -AD should continue.

    I really HATE, when a skill says buff duration 8-12s, expires if out of combat for 9s...

    It is pointless flat out pointless.

    -AD is incredibly key to single target champion DPS, you hit faster you do more damage.

    It needs to be made a staple of combat, not something that comes and goes based on luck.

    Also Battle Frenzy...

    Needs to be train line independent, it is a must slot on all lines.

    It is the only form of passive fervour generation availible.
    Ararax

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Howell View Post
    Since this is the new "talking to Jinjaah about champs" thread, I want to make sure this doesn't get forgotten:



    Note also that Fear Nothing has a cooldown about 10x longer than the superior debuff removal skills every other class has.

    My other personal pet peeve about champs is the absurd length of the True Heroics deed for new champs - 750 uses required, of a skill with a 5min cooldown that only counts for the deed when used in combat with a level-appropriate mob. My level 50 champ started this deed in January and is about half done now - all other class deeds long since completed. Fortunately my 95 champ did whatever the pre-HD version of the deed was long ago.

    Not by any means the biggest issues champs face, but they should be fixed at some point.
    From another thread:
    On the subject of Disease, Wound, Fear, Poison (DWFP) removal skills:
    Burglars have Burglar's Antidote. Removes 1 DWPF on a 15s cooldown. Also, HIPS removes all DWFP effects, on a 240s cooldown.*
    Captains have Muster Courage. Affects fellowship within 30 m to remove 1 DWFP. Adds +20% Fear Resist for 30s. 20s cooldown.
    Guardians have Ignorre the Pain. Removes 1 (or more) DWPF on a 5s cooldown. Yellow tree allows up to four effects at a time.
    Loremasters have Knowledge of Cures. Removes 3 DWPF on a target. Has a 2s induction and a 15s cooldown.
    Minstrels have Story of Courage. Removes 1 DWPF from fellowship within 45 m, and adds a Fear Resist rating to fellows within 15 m for 10s. Has a 3s induction and a 10s cooldown.
    Rune-keepers have Scribe a New Ending. Removes 1 DWFP from a target every 2 seconds for 6s. 8s cooldown.
    Wardens have First Aid. Removes 1 DWFP on a 5s cooldown.
    Hunters only have Purge Poison. Removes 3 Poisons with no cooldown.*
    Champions only have Fear Nothing. Removes 3 Fears and adds 2 Fervour on a 180s cooldown.
    I submit that Champions need a better debuff removal skill, with a cooldown in the 5 to 15s range. Champions do not need such a skill that removes debuffs from others, just a self-only skill. The comparison between cooldowns alone is rather ridiculous. All other classses have at worst 1/9th the cooldown on their removal skill compared to Champions. The 2 Fervour could be removed if the cooldown could be vastly decreased.
    (*I do not have a Burglar or a Hunter at this time. Other players told me about these two.)

    See? The cooldown for the champion removal skill is *only* nine times longer than any other freep class removal skill, not ten (20s x 9 =180s). Little tongue in cheek there, I guess, though you did say about.

    Here are a couple options I think might work.
    A) Fear Nothing. Reduce cooldown to 15s and make it remove 1 DWFP effect. Reduce Fervour added to 1, maybe even to 0.
    B) Add new 'First Aid' skill, copied straight over from Warden skills.
    C) Based off Moors blue set, add removal of 1 DWFP effect to Bracing Attack. Add some way, in blue line/tree, to reduce cooldown of Bracing Attack to 10-20s. (Bonus: this could get us passed that horrible having to spend points on stats found in blue line.)
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  25. #25
    Jinjaah is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_Howell View Post
    Since this is the new "talking to Jinjaah about champs" thread, I want to make sure this doesn't get forgotten:



    Note also that Fear Nothing has a cooldown about 10x longer than the superior debuff removal skills every other class has.

    My other personal pet peeve about champs is the absurd length of the True Heroics deed for new champs - 750 uses required, of a skill with a 5min cooldown that only counts for the deed when used in combat with a level-appropriate mob. My level 50 champ started this deed in January and is about half done now - all other class deeds long since completed. Fortunately my 95 champ did whatever the pre-HD version of the deed was long ago.

    Not by any means the biggest issues champs face, but they should be fixed at some point.
    This is being addressed in 13.1.

    -Jinjaah

 

 
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