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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug View Post
    While I realize the thread was specifically started about a warg pack, there is still a freep mentality I routinely see come out here which goes along the lines of "a couple well played, coordinated creeps with all their skills should be able to beat me" and somehow that becomes an argument against the freep class not being OP. And no one seems to see the problem with that.

    I okay a decent reaver, the class freeps routinely point at as OP or why balance is fine and generally considered the best creep class. And yes I can prey on average freep players pretty easily including wardens and such. But good players of almost all freep classes I'd say are balanced with me with wardens and guards stronger than reavers. Not every line of every freep class but blue line lms, blue line minis (and I'd say red line minis should be able to win but I see few playing them to their full potential), both red and yellow cappies, any good burg willing to use TnG. Reavers have a definite advantage over hunters, champs and RKs but this OP class of creeps are worse then wardens for sure, probably then guards if guards use their big heals and even with lms, minis and burgs (and I'm talking about good players here). It doesn't take multiple good, well coordinated freeps to kill a reaver and that isn't even a mindset if ever go out with. When I played my mini (as I will again after u13) I knew every moment it was OP and I nerfed myself but I still saw other minis with that expectation they should be able to take on multiple creeps and it always pissed me off. And I still see it here.
    Yea I agree with alot of this. Fundamentally, it takes alot of work on creep rotations/traits/rank to be able to compete with certain trait trees and classes that require less work to get to the same point.

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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    A proper warden can kill a high ranked creep in 20 seconds? I will share with you some rough numbers from playing my rank 7 warg

    I have killed freeps (no macros.. I don't macro) in U12.3 in under 4 seconds before. This is the duration of the stun on a low/no-aud freep.

    I have killed full aud freeps in 6-7 seconds. If you're complaining about one of the best freep dps classes currently killing a high ranked creep in "like" 20 seconds, then you're obviously a tad misguided about reavers/wargs dps levels.

    With two wargs in duo, we together have killed 20k morale healing minstrels before the animation for their stun break skill has even ended and they can flop. With a reaver and one warg, with good coordnation, freeps melt regardless of class, cooldowns, skill, or gear. Either way, in terms of DPS/spike damage relative to morale pools, wargs and reavers have it 100x better than wardens have it right now. As a warden I would personally love to be throwing out 4 attacks per second for insane up-front damage as opposed to being solely reliant on bleeds.

    It's incredibly rare on my warden to kill any ranked creep in 20 seconds, they'd have to be afk, and I'd have to get insanely lucky on 15% double-bleeds and crits, as well as popping my damage boost cooldown. If I target near enough any ranked creep it's first step is to slow me AND stun me, and then run away at which point I can do next to nothing until I can catch up, IF I can catch up. If it's a BA it can pop evade for 15 seconds of being nearly untouchable to a melee/ranged. If it's a warg it can hips, or simply slow me and waltz away with it's insane in combat run speed. If it's a reaver it can slow me and pop resilience and walk away. If it's a defiler it will spam heal and I will never kill it in 20 seconds or anywhere close. War -leader the same. A spider with ridiculously high mits and BPE from catch prey is very difficult to take down quickly, they do go down but through all the CC and debuffs, a good spider can take a long time to kill.

    If wardens are killing you in 20 seconds and you're a high ranked creep (which doesn't mean you're a good creep) then the issue is most likely you're allowing the warden to get too close and not taking advantage of one of the many many skills creep-side has to combat wardens. As in my above post I'm not saying wardens are by any means a weak class but it seems from what I read, a lot of people just want to faceroll 1-2-3-4 and win vs any opposing class. Any class that is remotely difficult to beat or might take some thought to kill, is just "OP" and needs a nerf.

    I just read about half of your post, sorry about that..

    What warg haven't killed a freep even before before the stun duration ran out? I have found plenty of freeps like that. They were all squishy and maybe unsupported. Many of them lacked audacity and gear and they were NOT the proper wardens I was talking about. And ofc you can cooperate with some warg bro and blow up a light class in a few seconds.
    You missed the part in my post where I was talking about proper wardens. I was also referring to 1vs1 fights against wardens since I don't use zergs as examples.

    Yes I have fought certain wardens and my combatanalysis showed 2.7k+ TPS after several fights. Why did I bother fight them? Because they were on half or low morale which just worked out as baiting for them.
    I was in shadow stance since you can just forget about flayer in such fights. I'll be happy to share SS of combatanalysis with you and you might see that you must be doing something wrong on your warden.
    And no, I don't just spam claws. I use fleas, snap, cripple bite, silence, stuns...... all kinds of cc and debuffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    the issue is most likely you're allowing the warden to get too close and not taking advantage of one of the many many skills creep-side has to combat wardens
    I understand you must be a beginner. Your so-called "advice" is not helping much. Why don't you also advice me to hit "W" or holding down mouse buttons to move forward?
    Last edited by grapez; Apr 08 2014 at 08:25 AM.
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  3. #28
    I think the problem here is that four terrible wargs ran into a warden...

    On a side note, a baby dies every time a warg enters Flayer. Please stop doing it...please...it hurts so much. We are a glass cannon class. High dps, low survivability. Using Flayer just makes you suck at both.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post
    I think the problem here is that four terrible wargs ran into a warden...

    On a side note, a baby dies every time a warg enters Flayer. Please stop doing it...please...it hurts so much. We are a glass cannon class. High dps, low survivability. Using Flayer just makes you suck at both.
    Agreed, shadow is win.
    Last edited by grapez; Apr 08 2014 at 08:28 AM.
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  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post
    I think the problem here is that four terrible wargs ran into a warden...

    On a side note, a baby dies every time a warg enters Flayer. Please stop doing it...please...it hurts so much. We are a glass cannon class. High dps, low survivability. Using Flayer just makes you suck at both.
    I love this people commenting our skills. If you didnt noticed, i said several times that i would never come to forums to discuss normal things like we should be able to burn him in 3 seconds, if it was someone else. There is something very broken about wardens, and if you dont believe me, then all of your server wardens are at max - decent.

    Enjoy, and stop by any time with your freepie, i would like you to meet 4 terrible wargs.

    As for flayer - i use it when im in warg pack vs - guards, wardens, cappies. Pack flayer is still the best thing one grouped warg can throw in their face, so.. Im very happy if those freep babies are dying whenever i use Flayer after pouncing from stealth.

    Cheers
    Chieftain Mreza, Kokosovo mleko Chieftain (Rank 12 weaver)
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by avengingbananaslug View Post
    While I realize the thread was specifically started about a warg pack, there is still a freep mentality I routinely see come out here which goes along the lines of "a couple well played, coordinated creeps with all their skills should be able to beat me" and somehow that becomes an argument for the freep class not being OP. And no one seems to see the problem with that.

    I play a decent reaver, the class freeps routinely point at as OP or why balance is fine and generally considered the best creep class. And yes I can prey on average freep players pretty easily including wardens and such. But good players of almost all freep classes I'd say are balanced with me with wardens and guards stronger than reavers. Not every line of every freep class but blue line lms, blue line minis (and I'd say red line minis should be able to win but I see few playing them to their full potential), both red and yellow cappies, any good burg willing to use TnG. Reavers have a definite advantage over hunters, champs and RKs (though yellow line hunters can do well and I guess some people have good strategies on other servers with champs) but this OP class of creeps are worse then wardens for sure, probably then guards if guards use their big heals and seem to me even with lms, minis and burgs (and I'm talking about good players here). It doesn't take multiple good, well coordinated freeps to kill a reaver and that isn't even a mindset I'd ever go out to the Moors with. When I played my mini (as I will again after u13) I knew every moment it was OP and I nerfed myself in accordance but I still saw other minis using everything in 1v1s and having an expectation they should be able to take on multiple creeps and it always pissed me off and I still see it now, including in this thread.
    I agree to an extent....Reaver is only "OP" when someone good is playing it. But then again that goes for any class. I'm a decent minstrel, I feel like i have a sound strategy against reavers, and I still lose occasionally. I do however play on a small server that's not "HUGE" on 1v1s. Usually the same people there the majority of the time so I've only really fought a couple good reavers.
    High Treason

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  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post
    I love this people commenting our skills. If you didnt noticed, i said several times that i would never come to forums to discuss normal things like we should be able to burn him in 3 seconds, if it was someone else. There is something very broken about wardens, and if you dont believe me, then all of your server wardens are at max - decent.

    Enjoy, and stop by any time with your freepie, i would like you to meet 4 terrible wargs.

    As for flayer - i use it when im in warg pack vs - guards, wardens, cappies. Pack flayer is still the best thing one grouped warg can throw in their face, so.. Im very happy if those freep babies are dying whenever i use Flayer after pouncing from stealth.

    Cheers
    Based upon your commentary, the warden in question didn't use Never Surrender. Based on this, and the fact that you all managed to die, not just leave I assume it was dps specced. Maybe not 3 seconds, but 4 mid-ranked, decently played wargs should be able to burn a dps specced warden in around 6 seconds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lanelthan View Post
    I agree to an extent....Reaver is only "OP" when someone good is playing it. But then again that goes for any class. I'm a decent minstrel, I feel like i have a sound strategy against reavers, and I still lose occasionally. I do however play on a small server that's not "HUGE" on 1v1s. Usually the same people there the majority of the time so I've only really fought a couple good reavers.
    No, reaver is only "OP" when someone competent is playing it. EVERY class in lotro is "OP" when someone good is playing it.
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  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    EVERY class in lotro is "OP" when someone good is playing it.
    I guess this is exaggerating, but still.. not true at all.

    For first part - that good player with reaver is OP, yes, absolutely true. But not god mode as - idiot playing with captain or guardian.
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  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post
    I guess this is exaggerating, but still.. not true at all.

    For first part - that good player with reaver is OP, yes, absolutely true. But not god mode as - idiot playing with captain or guardian.
    I'll concede that a good player on WL or Defiler isn't OP atm.

    I'll pit my mediocre reaver against the average idiot playing captain or guardian any day of the week. Same for my warg.
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  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post

    I'll pit my mediocre reaver against the average idiot playing captain or guardian any day of the week. Same for my warg.
    That is mostly right. But a good player vs a bad player should not be used to compare how OP/weak a class is.

    For example what do you think the results of the following would be :

    1. Bad warg vs Bad guard or captain - ?

    2. Average warg vs Average guard or captain - ?

    3. Good warg vs Good guard or captain - ?

    I have only been playing this game for a couple of months, so my views might not be accurate. From experience what I have noticed is that I can kill most guards and captains I come across. However if I come across a captain or guard who knows what they are doing with their class, I have near zero chance of killing them.

    From a wargs perspective, I see my match-ups as follows : (assuming the opponent is a good player and is not holding back on any skills)

    1. Warg vs Hunter - Warg wins except for the very rare cases where the hunter gets a very lucky dev hit.
    2. Warg vs Warden - Warg has a good chance of getting a kill if warden doesnt use NS. But most likely the warg will die after the fight from bleeds and more often that not, the warden will use NS and hence will result in a warden win.
    3. Warg vs Guard - Guard wins. Too many self heals for the amount of dps they dish out.
    4. Warg vs captain - Captain wins. Too many self heals.
    5. Warg vs minstrel - Advantage to minstrel, but warg has a chance of getting the kill. Against a minstrel traited blue - no chance.
    6. Warg vs Runekeeper - Even fight. Warg wins if RK does not use AoS. If using AoS, RKs hold the advantage.
    7. Warg vs Burglar - Even fight. Both have a good chance to kill the other mostly because wargs get the jump on burgs since they have tracks. Having said that, my server does not have many burglars. So this opinion might not be right.
    8. Warg vs Loremaster - Even fight if LM is traited red. Advantage to LM if traited blue and spams WL. Warg usually wins if LM is traited red and has wisdom on cd.
    9. Warg vs Champion - Warg wins if champ is traited red. Champ wins if champ is traited blue.

    So basically the only fight that a warg really controls is the one against the hunter. Against every other class, assuming the opponent is good, it depends on what skills/traits the opponent uses. Every opponent except the hunter (though yellow line is a challenge) has a trait line or skill that will make them unkillable (assuming the opponent is a good player).

    EDIT : Appears that this wasn't the topic of discussion in this thread. Apologies for the derail.
    Last edited by Erazer_The_Stalker; Apr 10 2014 at 07:57 PM.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Based upon your commentary, the warden in question didn't use Never Surrender. Based on this, and the fact that you all managed to die, not just leave I assume it was dps specced. Maybe not 3 seconds, but 4 mid-ranked, decently played wargs should be able to burn a dps specced warden in around 6 seconds.

    No, reaver is only "OP" when someone competent is playing it. EVERY class in lotro is "OP" when someone good is playing it.
    that's what im gathering from all this it also sounds like

    1.the warden was Red traited and red/blue specced,
    2. had the HD warden tank jewelery on(10% chance to heal 10% max morale on hit)
    3. The wargs were traited straight up glass cannon so no defense what so ever which is why the bleeds hit like they do(there are ways around that)
    4. Was L.I swapping
    5. The wargs need more group practice with CC.
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    with that being said earlier in the thread: 1v1s cant really be used to determine because as most of the population in this community knows different servers have different

    1v1- Ethics, I know of only Meneldor on this but as far as wardens go

    1. Cant heal
    2. cant use O.S skills
    that being said if a creep wants to play with all their skills go for it, but as a Veteran warden from mid SoM wasn't out much in MoM days, its a challenge we learn to adapt and accept.

    and that's basically it, yes there are wardens that do use that out in the open but that's also not a pre-setup fight. You catch me in the open I will probably have NS and it could possibly be off CD which means I basically have 2 NS's to bait ya with. I don't know if there's a warg nearby so yeah I will probably not hold back

    I've dabbled a bit on creep side and by no means have high ranked Creeps but I have a rank 6 warg that I have beaten shield wardens with and same with a R5 reaver traited and has all skills. can beat WL/zoo spamming lms, healing minis, shield wardens, yellow cappys. You just have to know how to fight them and possibly not be so much *glass cannon*.
    ------------------

    On a whole other note Desolates I hear you 1v1 w/o any bleeds is that true?
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  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post

    I have soloed many, many wargpacks including ones with up to 8 low to midranked wargs (and the odd trashy rank 14 like Madmug, who still after 3-4 years of zerging, hasn't figured out how to play his class right).

    Speaking for most of the wardens on brandywine, any good warg can 1v1 the vast majority of them and win without even a morale pot. So you're doing something wrong

    No disrespect intended.
    Perhaps if you don't want to be disrespectful you could not name people and have a dig at their competency, especially when (they are a friend of mine and I know) they are now at the highest Rank on the server and were one of if not the first Wargs to get there on Brandywine, so clearly can play their class quite well. No disrespect intended.
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  13. #38
    Rank means nothing when talking about skill level.
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  14. #39
    Woooow, way too much discussion.

    Blue traited or not, a warden just melt against 4 decent wargs. You guys weren't just good enough, that isn't a big deal. This apparently wasn't an exploit.

    The key about fighting warden is silences and stuns, so cover your silences and dont get your stuns being too diminushed by the DR, when all CD are up and allowed, a warg should in most of the cases be able to get the NS to be able to repop and kill it in the next 5 mins. In bad cases you have vanish/pot.
    Two or more wargs just have no excuses, sorry.
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  15. #40
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    Lotro creepinists/freepinists be like 'when a warden of equal skill and a warg of equal skill fight, the warden wins automatically. This is obviously part of a system designed to benefit all wardens against all wargs.

    We need to demolish this system. Let's all fight for wargs equality!'

    How would you guys fare in rock paper scissors? Or would you all fight to have it abolished and forgotten?

    The only issue in a PvMP system is when there is one class with no suitable counter. 4 wargs are 3 wargs more than neccesary to counter 1 warden in simply a mindless DPS race, let alone actually using debuffs and co-ordination to kill your target.

    Wardens have suitable counters. So does pretty much every class.
    The only innerant issues is that some classes don't counter any opposing classes at all (defiler/wl) and that some classes do not have enough counters placed against them (weavers). Perhaps also, some classes don't counter certain other classes well enough.

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Perhaps also, some classes don't counter MOST certain other classes well enough.(hunters)
    Seriously though. I'm so grateful it's not my favorite class. I would of quit the game long ago if it was.

  17. #42
    I have yet to see a warden that my warg cannot beat 1v1, even though this might be due to their rather poor play... I'll nearly always die myself, though. Gg balance,

    I don't think warden DPS is the problem, it's DPS + morale + BPE + insane DoT damage. Giving them (and guards) 3 morale/vit would bring them on par with most other classes, imo.
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I have yet to see a warden that my warg cannot beat 1v1, even though this might be due to their rather poor play... I'll nearly always die myself, though. Gg balance,

    I don't think warden DPS is the problem, it's DPS + morale + BPE + insane DoT damage. Giving them (and guards) 3 morale/vit would bring them on par with most other classes, imo.
    The insane dot damage is a a wardens dps. Im all for wardens only getting 3 morale per point of vit outside of blue line, just as long as they get a more reliable slow or a sprint

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimrinoth View Post
    The insane dot damage is a a wardens dps. Im all for wardens only getting 3 morale per point of vit outside of blue line, just as long as they get a more reliable slow or a sprint
    I'm sorry, but you can't have everything...
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I have yet to see a warden that my warg cannot beat 1v1, even though this might be due to their rather poor play... I'll nearly always die myself, though. Gg balance,

    I don't think warden DPS is the problem, it's DPS + morale + BPE + insane DoT damage. Giving them (and guards) 3 morale/vit would bring them on par with most other classes, imo.
    "dps + dot damage" well, theyre one and the same, without dots we have literally nothing.

    BPE is irrelevant, I have very high BPE and BPE creeps so rarely it's somewhat laughable, and yet with 30% finesse I see wargs block with their teeth more often than I BPE in total.

    The morale + dps, yep I agree, it's a killer combo.

    I have soloed countless wargpacks of up to like.. 8-9, if they're bad, honestly I think I could take more, even more, if I switched to blue or something. Fact is, TWO good wargs and I mean good wargs, not mediocre wargs, will obliterate me, they'll do 2-3k dps each and maaaybe I'll bleed one or them both out a few sec if I die, maybe. If they're CC'ing me properly, disarming and silencing me properly, chances are I may not even get 1 kill there.

    However, any warg 1v1? Not yet found a warg that as of U14 kills me or, even gets me below 30% health in a 1v1, this is without heals, obviously no NS, no buffs to speak of, even OPs, and includes rank 14 wargs, BWs' two rank 15 wargs don't play, currently. If an average/mid rank warg is beating a warden 1v1 the warden is majorly holding back (more than usual to not make the 1v1 faceroll) or the warden is bad. Simple as that really.

    1v1, Warden is the best class out there with the only exceptions being Spider & Defiler, more-so for spider, since they seem to be able to use everything bar Burrow & TC (and both of these, too, in some cases) including full self healing in a 1v1, and that's totally cool, apparently.

    But hey-ho, the op lost a 4v1 and it's clearly the enemy that's OP/exploiting, and not the fact that it was clearly 4 terrible wargs and the warden may have got a bit lucky on 15% double bleeds.

    Absolution

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I'm sorry, but you can't have everything...
    In response to this... Sorry what, everything? What group role do Warden's fulfil in the moors if they're not DPS'ing, exactly?

    YEAH lets all nerf Warden bleeds so they can do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the moors. We have a terrible, hard to apply 30% heals debuff, and high-dps. That's kind of it... We have no CCs to speak of, our ranged dps is mediocre at best, we just have hard hitting dots that make wargs and spiders blowing burrow cry. That's kind of it.
    Absolution

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    In response to this... Sorry what, everything? What group role do Warden's fulfil in the moors if they're not DPS'ing, exactly?

    YEAH lets all nerf Warden bleeds so they can do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the moors. We have a terrible, hard to apply 30% heals debuff, and high-dps. That's kind of it... We have no CCs to speak of, our ranged dps is mediocre at best, we just have hard hitting dots that make wargs and spiders blowing burrow cry. That's kind of it.
    You have
    1. Self Heals
    2. DoT damage
    3. Upfront damage (kinnie how shown me 14k SoD upfront hit)
    4. Survivability (BPE, morale)

    You want a perma slow and CC or something? Honestly, if I'd have to pick the class that is best at the do-it-all, it would wardens. There's just no denying that. Wardens literally don't need anything more than this.

    Also, I'm sure you're good and all that on your warden, but BW wargs must be terrible.
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    You have
    1. Self Heals
    2. DoT damage
    3. Upfront damage (kinnie how shown me 14k SoD upfront hit)
    4. Survivability (BPE, morale)

    You want a perma slow and CC or something? Honestly, if I'd have to pick the class that is best at the do-it-all, it would wardens. There's just no denying that. Wardens literally don't need anything more than this.

    Also, I'm sure you're good and all that on your warden, but BW wargs must be terrible.
    I'm more referring to the fact that after your supposed nerf of warden bleeds, what do you expect our class role to be?

    5/6 moors group, need blue line warden to spam self heals.

    5/6 moors group, need warden to BPE stuff.

    ?????

    As I mentioned above, with 28% parry, 25% evade, and 10% block I'm lucky to BPE in total, as much as 1 warg will just block alone, lol.

    SoV can do very very high up front damage, this is only due to the initial hit(s) of the bleed(s) it procs lol. Without the bleed component SoV will crit for about 5k with a ton of buffs. Each bleed initial pulse adds 10k to this. No bleeds? No damage.

    Up-front damage aside from this is piss-poor, worse than what most creeps can chuck out.

    Again, I'm talking classroles here, being able to self heal, block parry and evade (sometimes) and "having high morale" is not really much of a class role.

    This is fairly obvious.
    Absolution

  24. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    845
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I'm sorry, but you can't have everything...
    No but it seems reasonable for a melee class to be able to maintain melee range for short amounts of time. You complain about hamstring, but at least champs have a sprint and champs duel to fall back on.

    And as the above poster pointed out, warden upfront damage is nothing. Our dps is all dots.

  25. #50
    Nobody considers yellow a possiblity it seems, but that gives some support that can be appreciated, especially the AoE -12,5% mitigation debuffs.
    Than you have a role besides just doing DoT damage.
    ~Dwarrowdelf (Bomb Squad)~
    Freeps: Vulcwen (R8 LM), Vulciel (lvl 100 RK), and some lower level alts.. Creep: Shadowweb (R6 spider)
    My ideas on how LM should be: [url=https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?543323-LM-revamp-reconsidered]LM Revamp reconsidered[/url]

 

 
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