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  1. #1

    Wardens - underestimated freep class after HD

    Im sad that i cant contribute to this thread with a video, but i guess some of you surely seen this on your servers.
    Let me describe you:

    Warden rank 12, being attacked by 4 grouped wargs, all around r6-7-8, not lower, not higher than that. I had store bought Flayer, but didnt used it at that time, cause we thought we are gonna burn him quickly. But on our surprise...
    He somehow managed to heal himself, always, at least to keep his morale at 50%-60% (Had around 23k morale, if im not wrong) and still to put few really devastating dots on every single one of us. Resulting in our 4 deaths, even after hipses/sprints and commendation healing pots.
    When fight was over, we were raging in our deaths ofc, at each other, he just got his mount back and continued his way.
    Truth is that he is really good and old warden, and we are really not lowbie wargs, even tho those are our alts only, but we do know all the secrets and rotations we need to know.

    Is it possible that there is some bug or exploit with wardens, which should be mentioned for fix, or is it that he is just an exemplary good warden?

    Ty all,
    Cheers.
    Chieftain Mreza, Kokosovo mleko Chieftain (Rank 12 weaver)
    Brekka Crixus of Eldar, Potomci Numenora, Evernight (Ex Lazareva vojska)

    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post
    "He somehow managed to heal himself, always, at least to keep his morale at 50%-60% (Had around 23k morale, if im not wrong) and still to put few really devastating dots on every single one of us."

    "Is it possible that there is some bug or exploit with wardens, which should be mentioned for fix, or is it that he is just an exemplary good warden?"
    I think there are other classes who could pull off the same, this is not strictly a warden thing.

    As a warden, I believe it.

    On Landroval, I've seen it.


    Wardens are very underestimated :-)
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  3. #3
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    Well, there's the WDN heal escape skill, forget it's name, man-heal & pot heal. Might have just been those 3
    [B]Hitchens[/B](r9 warg)[B], [/B][B]Glasgow[/B](R9 LM), [B]Lintalthir[/B] (R10 Hunter), [B]Rithun[/B] (R6 Captain) Brandywine server.
    [I]I fought alongside Silverest & Wuffles on Gladden when LOTRO began, nowadays on Brandwyne's PvP [/I]

  4. #4
    Wardens are in exactly the same place they've just about always been. The strongest solo class in the game, and in general one of the 3 most powerful classes in the game (the other 2 in some sort of flux). They've lost a bit of survivability with HD compared to RoI and RoR but can still easily heal through any single creeps dps while still doing solid dps themselves, while specced for damage.

    4 mid-ranked wargs losing to a warden either fought a shield line one in which case there is little excuse for actually dying yourselves, or the 4 mid-ranked wargs have a much higher opinion of themselves than they should. The surprise at the warden's ability to heal itself, and the lack of commentary on keeping it silenced/disarmed coupled with everyone getting DoT'ed up implies the latter.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post
    , and we are really not lowbie wargs, even tho those are our alts only, but we do know all the secrets and rotations we need to know.
    .
    evidently not
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  6. #6
    At least we don't see that many wardens in the moor lately at least my server.

    Ppl know they wont get any respect playing wardens in the moors maybe except Desolates

  7. #7
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    As a Warden, I limit myself to not using healing gambits during fights. As a result, I lose a lot more fights than I should. Still working on skill rotations. But fighting a Warden like that is most likely blue line. And if you coordinated your stuns and silences just right, I would think that most shield Wardens would have difficulty surviving.

    P.S. - The Warden's big heal is called Never Surrender and has a 5 minute reduced CD if traited for it in blue line.

  8. #8
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    I would say it's rather a matter of good WDN players. I've soloed low-quality ones with ease, even when rank 7 in SOM times!

    The one's I've failed to kill by myself or with help, are the 'solo Warden' players everyone knows are good and generally avoided.
    [B]Hitchens[/B](r9 warg)[B], [/B][B]Glasgow[/B](R9 LM), [B]Lintalthir[/B] (R10 Hunter), [B]Rithun[/B] (R6 Captain) Brandywine server.
    [I]I fought alongside Silverest & Wuffles on Gladden when LOTRO began, nowadays on Brandwyne's PvP [/I]

  9. #9
    There are some new wardens that are really even easy to solo, but they actually learned to play in groups, never tried to fight anything without help, so thats a bit expected.
    Problem with this one may be that when i pounced it, we didnt had all 4 wargs on him, but 10m away, so we didnt had much of surprise and coordinaton in first moment.
    He managed to stack some terrible bleeds on me, like 7k per tic (i have 60% crit defence and 46k morale), then others jumped in, when i already noticed my morale went to 50% and was sure im dead. In the meantime he changed his target to others, while still having alot of morale, and several green buffs - wasnt heals, but some Block rating or parry rating...
    Also, i did noticed never surrender, we managed to activate it when already 2 of us were dead...

    Watching all the other wardens (most of them dissapeared after HD release), they cant pull anything similar, so in my mind came that there might be some exploit, like the one that minstrels had for critical heals, stacking several rows of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    evidently not
    I said not the best ones, but trust me, better players than most of them.
    Chieftain Mreza, Kokosovo mleko Chieftain (Rank 12 weaver)
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post
    and several green buffs - wasnt heals, but some Block rating or parry rating...
    There's a trait when you're specced far enough down Red line that gives you a buff whenever you parry? an attack. It gives you -100% Gambit Builders Power Cost I believe.
    Eniigmatik | Exploit

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOrcsBane View Post
    There's a trait when you're specced far enough down Red line that gives you a buff whenever you parry? an attack. It gives you -100% Gambit Builders Power Cost I believe.
    Sounds like the shield mastery buff that he was describing, which is blue line only. If the warden was in blue line i really doubt he was doing 7k bleeds.

    That being said wardens are op.

  12. #12
    Sounds like 4 wargs stuck around to fight a blue line warden.


    Blue line wardens are like poison dart frogs, just run away when you see them. Attempting to eat them will result in bad tummy aches (and a very very slow death).
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Wardens are in exactly the same place they've just about always been. The strongest solo class in the game.
    ^This

    Not saying this is what happened, but on top of that freeps can actually trait swap in combat and gear swap in ditto. So personally I wouldn't be put off too much by peoples comments regarding skills. You might as well as no footage goes have been facing a massive exploiter.
    At least as a warg you have the chance to get the fook outta there and not suffer what visibles do, a.k.a 50 sec slows and ranged skills that equals standing in GV and hitting creeps at STR
    Meaning that you shouldn't die to this guy, but neither will you ever kill him, exploting or 'just in blue' as he may be.
    Last edited by poxnoxious; Mar 29 2014 at 12:04 AM.
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  14. #14
    Exactly that was the problem, he was like a tank but we still had some incredible dots on us. When i hipsed, i had around 15k morale and heal pot r7 on coodown, cause i used it so i can help others to ''finish him off'', i tried to turn of shadow and turn on flayer, cause thats my basic tactic + heal pot against any freep dot when i sprint away in despair, but i just ended dead after crit 6-7k dot, and few not crits for 3k, 20 meteres away.

    I dont question his reputation, the best warden on Eldar, high ranked, but still.. Didnt knew they were capable of tanking few creeps while spreading those devastating dots on us...

    Cheers everybody
    Chieftain Mreza, Kokosovo mleko Chieftain (Rank 12 weaver)
    Brekka Crixus of Eldar, Potomci Numenora, Evernight (Ex Lazareva vojska)

    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  15. #15
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    Warden has always had incredible potential as a solo class - this has not changed with HD. With HD those who fully take advantage of their class form a very small part of the overall warden population (on RM server).

    Shumzuda R11 Blackarrow - Shumheals R6 Defiler - Shumzud R6 Warg Beardhug R9 Champion - Majeika R8 LM - Chuffnel Burglar
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  16. #16
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    Lightbulb

    Errr, first off... I can tell from your post there's some inflation/exaggeration going on.

    The only way I think of this warden repeatedly healing to around 50% morale is by exploiting a gear set that entirely removes Never Surrender cooldown, which is a 50% heal.

    4 Intelligent wargs would attack a warden as follows:
    2 shadow
    1 no stance
    1 flayer stance.

    This would give a nice debuff to inc heals, an incredibly potent slow, a disarm or 2 on a relatively short cooldown, endless silences, very very good CC. If you don't know how to group on wargs (like 99% of Brandywine who go in 24man packs and lose to duos) then yeah, you're "gonna get wrecked, son". Chances are, this warden was in blue line, in which case 7k dots didn't happen. On BW I'm the only pvp Warden with DOT's that hit anywhere near as high as mine do, and I cannot get that high on full audacity creeps that trait right, if I'm in BLUE (heals) line which I admittedly very rarely use, but still have specced for damage + survival when I know I'll be coming up to a wargpack.

    I have soloed many, many wargpacks including ones with up to 8 low to midranked wargs (and the odd trashy rank 14 like Madmug, who still after 3-4 years of zerging, hasn't figured out how to play his class right). But I do this in red line and this is down to a MASSIVE lack of creep skill, as opposed to me being incredibly OP/"macroing" as I'm regularly accused of. 2-3 wargs silence chaining me, knocking me down repeatedly through my immunity as well as kiting me the second I target them so I can't put my bleeds on them, will wreck me in seconds.

    To me, your predicament sounds like the warden is using the Never Surrender exploit or is in blue line. Some of your facts aren't straight. The buff you see stacking on him (the green one with a fist/hand in the box) is just a power reduction they get, it doesn't stack with itself and it's a pretty minor thing in general.

    To be totally honest though, if I go blue and heal-spam (usually to faceroll a creep I particularly hate, not through necessity) my dps suffers hardcore. If 4 wargs that knew all the "tricks" and "secrets" (lol .. secrets... eye rake?) of the class couldn't nuke me down through my heals, I'd put that down to their skill level, not the classes power.

    All the above being said the Warden is an incredibly powerful class, it's the #1 solo class in the moors, and it's not to be taken lightly. However, simply brushing up on your knowledge and playstyle, as well as sorting out your rotations, you should have no trouble killing a warden in any stance, 4v1.

    Speaking for most of the wardens on brandywine, any good warg can 1v1 the vast majority of them and win without even a morale pot. So you're doing something wrong

    No disrespect intended.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by poxnoxious View Post
    but on top of that freeps can actually trait swap in combat and gear swap in ditto.


    not sure what you imply by this but freeps can't swap any traits in combat, and can only swap LIs & weapons (still a big advantage, but not as big as jewelry/armour) in combat.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    not sure what you imply by this but freeps can't swap any traits in combat, and can only swap LIs & weapons (still a big advantage, but not as big as jewelry/armour) in combat.
    Oh irony...
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Oh irony...
    what exactly is ironic?

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    what exactly is ironic?
    The post you quoted.
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    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    The post you quoted.
    You're confusing.
    RIP Milkmefondly 2014

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shumzuda View Post
    Warden has always had incredible potential as a solo class - this has not changed with HD. With HD those who fully take advantage of their class form a very small part of the overall warden population (on RM server).
    I remember how creeps complained about warden DoT's before HD. Now it's way over the top and a proper warden can kill a high ranked creep in like 20s (a bit longer if the warden gets heavily CC'ed).
    They don't have DC anymore but after HD I rather fight 2 guardians then one proper warden when im on warg.
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    You're confusing.
    You guys make it, rather.
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    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by grapez View Post
    I remember how creeps complained about warden DoT's before HD. Now it's way over the top and a proper warden can kill a high ranked creep in like 20s (a bit longer if the warden gets heavily CC'ed).
    They don't have DC anymore but after HD I rather fight 2 guardians then one proper warden when im on warg.
    A proper warden can kill a high ranked creep in 20 seconds? I will share with you some rough numbers from playing my rank 7 warg

    I have killed freeps (no macros.. I don't macro) in U12.3 in under 4 seconds before. This is the duration of the stun on a low/no-aud freep.

    I have killed full aud freeps in 6-7 seconds. If you're complaining about one of the best freep dps classes currently killing a high ranked creep in "like" 20 seconds, then you're obviously a tad misguided about reavers/wargs dps levels.

    With two wargs in duo, we together have killed 20k morale healing minstrels before the animation for their stun break skill has even ended and they can flop. With a reaver and one warg, with good coordnation, freeps melt regardless of class, cooldowns, skill, or gear. Either way, in terms of DPS/spike damage relative to morale pools, wargs and reavers have it 100x better than wardens have it right now. As a warden I would personally love to be throwing out 4 attacks per second for insane up-front damage as opposed to being solely reliant on bleeds.

    It's incredibly rare on my warden to kill any ranked creep in 20 seconds, they'd have to be afk, and I'd have to get insanely lucky on 15% double-bleeds and crits, as well as popping my damage boost cooldown. If I target near enough any ranked creep it's first step is to slow me AND stun me, and then run away at which point I can do next to nothing until I can catch up, IF I can catch up. If it's a BA it can pop evade for 15 seconds of being nearly untouchable to a melee/ranged. If it's a warg it can hips, or simply slow me and waltz away with it's insane in combat run speed. If it's a reaver it can slow me and pop resilience and walk away. If it's a defiler it will spam heal and I will never kill it in 20 seconds or anywhere close. War -leader the same. A spider with ridiculously high mits and BPE from catch prey is very difficult to take down quickly, they do go down but through all the CC and debuffs, a good spider can take a long time to kill.

    If wardens are killing you in 20 seconds and you're a high ranked creep (which doesn't mean you're a good creep) then the issue is most likely you're allowing the warden to get too close and not taking advantage of one of the many many skills creep-side has to combat wardens. As in my above post I'm not saying wardens are by any means a weak class but it seems from what I read, a lot of people just want to faceroll 1-2-3-4 and win vs any opposing class. Any class that is remotely difficult to beat or might take some thought to kill, is just "OP" and needs a nerf.


  25. #25
    While I realize the thread was specifically started about a warg pack, there is still a freep mentality I routinely see come out here which goes along the lines of "a couple well played, coordinated creeps with all their skills should be able to beat me" and somehow that becomes an argument for the freep class not being OP. And no one seems to see the problem with that.

    I play a decent reaver, the class freeps routinely point at as OP or why balance is fine and generally considered the best creep class. And yes I can prey on average freep players pretty easily including wardens and such. But good players of almost all freep classes I'd say are balanced with me with wardens and guards stronger than reavers. Not every line of every freep class but blue line lms, blue line minis (and I'd say red line minis should be able to win but I see few playing them to their full potential), both red and yellow cappies, any good burg willing to use TnG. Reavers have a definite advantage over hunters, champs and RKs (though yellow line hunters can do well and I guess some people have good strategies on other servers with champs) but this OP class of creeps are worse then wardens for sure, probably then guards if guards use their big heals and seem to me even with lms, minis and burgs (and I'm talking about good players here). It doesn't take multiple good, well coordinated freeps to kill a reaver and that isn't even a mindset I'd ever go out to the Moors with. When I played my mini (as I will again after u13) I knew every moment it was OP and I nerfed myself in accordance but I still saw other minis using everything in 1v1s and having an expectation they should be able to take on multiple creeps and it always pissed me off and I still see it now, including in this thread.
    Last edited by avengingbananaslug; Apr 01 2014 at 10:35 PM.
    Edited due to violations of the community guidelines.

 

 
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