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  1. #1
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    When will balance be reintroduced?

    The bottom line is that freeps spend months grinding to make their characters competent in the moors, while creeps can spend 3 days (or less with some TP) and pretty much faceroll anything. Yet several freep classes dont even stand a chance in a 1v1. Before you say its skill based, try to tell me that a hunter can beat a BA or a spider, or a defiler. Not going to happen if the creep has any idea what he/her is doing.
    Why is it important for freeps to be able to handle these odds? I've already stated-- You build your character for months, but come to the moors to get facerolled. Not only that but creeps have maps and any 1v1 you might encounter will almost always turn into a 2v1 or more. In raid fights, 5+ warleaders in a creep raid means you basically have wipe that creep group multiple times over, because the 10+ defilers aren't going to allow you to bring down the warleaders quickly enough.


    Its an issue of ethics really. Freepside: Takes months of grinding to be moors ready
    Creepside: Takes a couple days to be moors ready

    Why should creepside have the upper hand?

    I'm not surprised that the pvp has died on almost every server and I dont blame the freeps and creeps who left. It simply does not make sense to roll a freep when you can just roll a creep and VT or impale a hunter for half or a third of his/her morale. There have been creep raids wherein each player is directed to only use 2 skills, and the craids still manage to wipe the freeps. It has nothing to do with lack of skill on freepside.

    My last point is this: the availability of Captains, RKs, and minstrels does not come close to approaching the availability of defilers and warleaders for creepside. And that goes for any class really. Like I said, freeps take months to build, most only have 1 or 2 that they can alt to. Some nights you will have 0 captains and 2-3 minstrels in the moors while creeps have 5 warleaders and 7 defilers. Its unplayable for the most part.

  2. #2
    Maybe this will answer your first question: freeps aren't solely made for PvP. Creeps are. They are in a PvP zone upon creation. R0-5's are already easy targets, what more can you ask of them? Freeps are much more PvE orientated, hence the grind.
    Then, Turbine doesn't care about 1v1 balance (or general balance, actually). The next update things might shift again. If you want to experience the Moors the way Turbine intended, you group up and fight a group of creeps. This is where things become (close to) balanced... save maybe spiders/the ezmode button called "Vital Target". Honestly, group vs group is actually in the freeps' favour. Let's take an example.
    1 of every creep class (solid group) vs 1 mini, 1 healing RK, 1 red captain, 1 warden, 1 fire RK, 1 LM. Creeps will likely get smashed. Here's why:
    Constant AoE pressure from (totally balanced) warden DoT's and the LM, single target nuke with fire RK. Grave Wound applies -50% incoming healing, and combined with all buffs captains can provide, a War-leader hardly stands a chance. The only way to survive is to bubble the defiler and then have the defiler absorb... but even then, absorb can be easily interrupted, and 4 creeps won't out-DPS an SI'd mini + healing RK. That's not taking 3 WL stacks into account.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Maybe this will answer your first question: freeps aren't solely made for PvP. Creeps are. They are in a PvP zone upon creation. R0-5's are already easy targets, what more can you ask of them? Freeps are much more PvE orientated, hence the grind.
    Does that answer the first 6 years of this game as well? Freeps were never made solely for pvp yet they were not underpowered. Your argument makes no sense.

    As the OP stated, r0-5's become blue ranks in a couple days and they can faceroll most classes.

    @ Giliodor, as far as group fights go, they are more imbalanced than 1v1s. You dont ever get an ideal freep group vs. and ideal creep group unless its organized. What you get in real pvp is map in after map in, and multiple spiders/defilers/WL's and whatever adding to the mess. Do you see captains and minstrels streaming in to fight like that? No..... but freeps have always been beefy enough to handle the odds (not always but it was a lot more manageable than it is now...)
    Illydros Squanto Ulricson Saridas Gap

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by lenway12 View Post
    The bottom line is that freeps spend months grinding to make their characters competent in the moors, while creeps can spend 3 days (or less with some TP) and pretty much faceroll anything.
    1: How PvP works in LOTRO is described in numerous reviews online. One may also read about it here on the official forums. To complain about a well known aspect of LOTRO PvP 8 years into the game is ridiculous - if any aspect of LOTRO PvP surprises you then you need to read more reviews before buying a product.

    2: There are at least 2 dozen PvP games on the market that offer mirrored sides. If you want mirrored sides you can have that now without the wait.

    3: If you'd like to PvP without grinding in LOTRO, roll a Creep.

    4: Turbine has made it clear that the pendulum will swing back and forth from time to time. In short, the game is working as intended.

    5: Turbine has made it clear that the game isn't balance for 1v1 - that isn't the goal.

    6: Turbine has made it clear that they're going to pretty much ignore PvP.


    Quote Originally Posted by lenway12 View Post
    Why is it important for freeps to be able to handle these odds? I've already stated-- You build your character for months, but come to the moors to get facerolled. Not only that but creeps have maps and any 1v1 you might encounter will almost always turn into a 2v1 or more. In raid fights, 5+ warleaders in a creep raid means you basically have wipe that creep group multiple times over, because the 10+ defilers aren't going to allow you to bring down the warleaders quickly enough.
    Godmode status isn't earned by spending months building your character.
    If you want mirrored sides by a company that is investing heavily in PvP then you shouldn't be in this game.


    Quote Originally Posted by lenway12 View Post
    Its an issue of ethics really. Freepside: Takes months of grinding to be moors ready
    Creepside: Takes a couple days to be moors ready

    Why should creepside have the upper hand?
    No, it isn't an issue of ethics.
    It would be an ethical issue if you were getting ripped off.
    You aren't.


    Quote Originally Posted by lenway12 View Post
    My last point is this: the availability of Captains, RKs, and minstrels does not come close to approaching the availability of defilers and warleaders for creepside. And that goes for any class really. Like I said, freeps take months to build, most only have 1 or 2 that they can alt to. Some nights you will have 0 captains and 2-3 minstrels in the moors while creeps have 5 warleaders and 7 defilers. Its unplayable for the most part.
    I understand and empathize with your desire for good PvP; however, there comes a time when a consumer has to be responsible for the selections that he makes. Given that Turbine has claimed that the balance will swing like a pendulum, that Creepside will never get 'leveling', and that they've no intent on making significant investments in PvP you have to ask yourself if this is the game for you.

    I say that because you're asking for something wherein the developers have already said a firm "NO".

  5. #5
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    Another lol thread, seriously in the 7 years of this game who has had the upper hand 75% percent of the time? Freeps did and even today's pvp ,right now there's no clear cut op side and if anything I'd still lean torwards freeps.
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by LEGENDofALL View Post
    Another lol thread, seriously in the 7 years of this game who has had the upper hand 75% percent of the time? Freeps did and even today's pvp ,right now there's no clear cut op side and if anything I'd still lean torwards freeps.
    Do you intend to troll everyone's thread if you have no positive feedback or an answer to someone's question don't comment at all, people like you are why there's so much hate on forums.
    As I Walk Through The Valley Of The Shadow Of Death, I Shall Fear No CREEP.
    Update 15 cant make the game any worse, lets keep fingers crossed.

    [IMG]http://s29.postimg.org/jp38kidnb/vvv.png[/IMG]

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archon7 View Post
    Do you intend to troll everyone's thread if you have no positive feedback or an answer to someone's question don't comment at all, people like you are why there's so much hate on forums.
    Are you a stalker? I commented on a thread that honestly is not accurate period as for commenting on the threads when you pay for my game you can tell me what to do other then that you can use a ignore button or live with it.

    Thanks and have a nice day
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by LEGENDofALL View Post
    Are you a stalker? I commented on a thread that honestly is not accurate period as for commenting on the threads when you pay for my game you can tell me what to do other then that you can use a ignore button or live with it.

    Thanks and have a nice day

    Seems pretty accurate to me, the fact that the moors is dead all but a couple servers might attest to that.

    I love when paying customers try to improve the product they're paying for, and more paying customers decide to sabotage that attempt. AKA the people that reply to threads and habitually disagree and argue.


    good job
    Illydros Squanto Ulricson Saridas Gap

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 007Squanto View Post
    Seems pretty accurate to me, the fact that the moors is dead all but a couple servers might attest to that.

    I love when paying customers try to improve the product they're paying for, and more paying customers decide to sabotage that attempt. AKA the people that reply to threads and habitually disagree and argue.


    good job
    that freeps are under powered , yeah ok that's funny
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by LEGENDofALL View Post
    that freeps are under powered , yeah ok that's funny
    Top end, geared freeps who can play, will wipe the floor of any creep opposition of same number or slighty above that. None can deny that. However, there is for those 10 servers that i frequent i would say less than 10% of the freep population that pvp which actually are competent enough to reach that criteria.

    So..when you take this into account, you will see those freeps that are average or below that vs running around. They will meet, generally creeps which are average or below that, in term of how they play or succeed.

    Why do i want to highlight this? An average creep, will beat an average freep, any day. There is only 1 class, which will not have trouble, thanks to FOTM brand it has upon it, Guardian.

    That is what i see and experience throughout all the servers. The criteria stands whether it is 1on1, small, normal or raid groups.

    As things stand, creep are easier to play, as it's simpler.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by 007Squanto View Post
    Does that answer the first 6 years of this game as well? Freeps were never made solely for pvp yet they were not underpowered. Your argument makes no sense.
    Where did you see me saying freeps are currently underpowered? The OP asked why creeps are ready to PvP so quickly, compared to freeps.

    @ Giliodor, as far as group fights go, they are more imbalanced than 1v1s. You dont ever get an ideal freep group vs. and ideal creep group unless its organized. What you get in real pvp is map in after map in, and multiple spiders/defilers/WL's and whatever adding to the mess. Do you see captains and minstrels streaming in to fight like that? No..... but freeps have always been beefy enough to handle the odds (not always but it was a lot more manageable than it is now...)
    That's got nothing to do with group vs group balance, it's an issue with mobility. I've been saying for weeks now that the map-in system has to be changed. But really, it doesn't matter whether you have a Fire RK or a burg, or a champ... The result is the same.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  12. #12
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    Turbine have never, and will never care about balance in PvMP. Unless it is a grossly wide-spread phenomenon event that needs a quickfix. (I.E. new pvp mitigations that had every freep being 2 shot at beginning of U13)


    It will always be a numbers game. (The moor the better?)
    Mixed with some bad luck. (Run around map for 25 minutes with a 6-man to stumble up against a dozen creeps with as many healers as you have in group)


    Also creeps have nothing to do except gank, and collect kindling.
    Freeps can just horse out, and do any of the other 95% of the game. LOL.
    Jimi's Mash

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melywen View Post
    Also creeps have nothing to do except gank, and collect kindling.
    Freeps can just horse out, and do any of the other 95% of the game. LOL.
    This is so true it's amazing +1 rep
    Kornakhas -Defiler, Korbashburz -Reaver, Kortdogestyle -Warg, Kornquickscopamlg - Black Arrow, Kornslurpyourblood - Weaver -Pyrrhic
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Where did you see me saying freeps are currently underpowered? The OP asked why creeps are ready to PvP so quickly, compared to freeps.



    That's got nothing to do with group vs group balance, it's an issue with mobility. I've been saying for weeks now that the map-in system has to be changed. But really, it doesn't matter whether you have a Fire RK or a burg, or a champ... The result is the same.
    The OP isn't asking anything-- he (or she) is stating that freeps should be more powerful since they take longer to build for pvp.



    To your second point, it has everything to do with groupvgroup balance... I'm not sure how you could think the ability to map in to a fight vs having to ride back has nothing to do with how a group fight will turn out.
    Illydros Squanto Ulricson Saridas Gap

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by 007Squanto View Post
    The OP isn't asking anything-- he (or she) is stating that freeps should be more powerful since they take longer to build for pvp.



    To your second point, it has everything to do with groupvgroup balance... I'm not sure how you could think the ability to map in to a fight vs having to ride back has nothing to do with how a group fight will turn out.
    1. Freeps who come to the moors on level have as much or more ability then a rank 0 creep who has nothing
    A. neither have aud
    B. Creeps dont have traits freeps do
    C. Freeps have all their skills , creeps dont
    D. Both have zero coms
    E. Both have questi to do for Coms

    So please explain to me how it takes longer for freeps to build for pvp then creeps, besides the Aud armour freeps can come to the moors with top end weapons,traits and jewelry and please dont give me this they got to level stuff because im talking if creep A comes out the same as Freep A , unless Freep A sucks he should win the major of the fights.
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LEGENDofALL View Post
    1. Freeps who come to the moors on level have as much or more ability then a rank 0 creep who has nothing
    A. neither have aud
    B. Creeps dont have traits freeps do
    C. Freeps have all their skills , creeps dont
    D. Both have zero coms
    E. Both have questi to do for Coms

    So please explain to me how it takes longer for freeps to build for pvp then creeps, besides the Aud armour freeps can come to the moors with top end weapons,traits and jewelry and please dont give me this they got to level stuff because im talking if creep A comes out the same as Freep A , unless Freep A sucks he should win the major of the fights.
    Building for PvP takes into account a lot more than grinding for audacity. Jewelry and LIs are an entire grind all of its own. Even if that grind is part of playing the game outside of PvP, the generic build for PvE is a good deal different than what is needed or best for PvP.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Landroval~

    ~Rank 12 Warg, Landroval~

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Building for PvP takes into account a lot more than grinding for audacity. Jewelry and LIs are an entire grind all of its own. Even if that grind is part of playing the game outside of PvP, the generic build for PvE is a good deal different than what is needed or best for PvP.
    This is the most irritating part of the question.
    Freeps come into this forum and complain about the PvE portion of getting ready for PvP when PvE is the game!

    If 95% of the game is a big 'get ready for PvP grind' - if that is the case the person has chosen the wrong game.
    I'll say it again: If 95% of the game is a grind to get to the part you like then you've chosen the wrong game.

    Why wouldn't a person who wants PvP buy a game that is PvP from the very start and enjoy 100% of the game?
    It would be like buying Battlefield 4 and complaining that there aren't more in-game role-played poetry slams.
    It doesn't make any sense.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuddlepaws View Post
    This is the most irritating part of the question.
    Freeps come into this forum and complain about the PvE portion of getting ready for PvP when PvE is the game!

    If 95% of the game is a big 'get ready for PvP grind' - if that is the case the person has chosen the wrong game.
    I'll say it again: If 95% of the game is a grind to get to the part you like then you've chosen the wrong game.

    Why wouldn't a person who wants PvP buy a game that is PvP from the very start and enjoy 100% of the game?
    It would be like buying Battlefield 4 and complaining that there aren't more in-game role-played poetry slams.
    It doesn't make any sense.
    Well, I think the major attraction to this game is the franchise. People play because they like tolkien/lotr. I highly doubt anyone finds much of the mechanics ground-breaking. That being said, scaling up the old SoA/MoM pvp jewlery doesn't seem that difficult. :/

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spilo View Post
    Building for PvP takes into account a lot more than grinding for audacity. Jewelry and LIs are an entire grind all of its own. Even if that grind is part of playing the game outside of PvP, the generic build for PvE is a good deal different than what is needed or best for PvP.
    You really need to learn to read and what I said so go back and read it again. A freep with average Li,jewelry,average gear ,rank zero with no aud will still roll most of if not all r zero creeps with no aud.


    Hence why freeps don't need more love in pvp to start.
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Girum19 View Post
    Well, I think the major attraction to this game is the franchise. People play because they like tolkien/lotr. I highly doubt anyone finds much of the mechanics ground-breaking. That being said, scaling up the old SoA/MoM pvp jewlery doesn't seem that difficult. :/
    theres nothing hard about pve in this game anymore
    A tree is a tree, a Rock is a rock and a Troll is Elmo

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by lenway12 View Post
    The bottom line is that freeps spend months grinding to make their characters competent in the moors, while creeps can spend 3 days (or less with some TP) and pretty much faceroll anything.
    Why don't you spend 4 days on a creep then come out to the moors and see how you do against the average freep then come back and let everyone know how you did.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by GerkinPickle View Post
    Why don't you spend 4 days on a creep then come out to the moors and see how you do against the average freep then come back and let everyone know how you did.
    Sure, i'd love to. I spent 3 days on my warg and was winning 1v1s all day. In case you didnt know, you need about 3 skills to win as a warg.

    And there are creeps who spent even less time than me-- spend some TP and you'll have all of your skills right away.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by LEGENDofALL View Post
    You really need to learn to read and what I said so go back and read it again. A freep with average Li,jewelry,average gear ,rank zero with no aud will still roll most of if not all r zero creeps with no aud.


    Hence why freeps don't need more love in pvp to start.
    I didn't say freeps need more love. Nor did I say that rank 0 freeps have better chance than creeps. I just said that it is not true that it takes longer for freeps to get geared/prepared for PvP than creeps.
    ~Rank 11 Loremaster, Landroval~

    ~Rank 12 Warg, Landroval~

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by 007Squanto View Post
    Seems pretty accurate to me, the fact that the moors is dead all but a couple servers might attest to that.

    I love when paying customers try to improve the product they're paying for, and more paying customers decide to sabotage that attempt. AKA the people that reply to threads and habitually disagree and argue.


    good job
    Ok I clicked buttons in the wrong order so forgive the back-to-front nature of this post lmao.

    I agree, there's always people sticking up for Turbine, and knocking improvements, I think we're all guilty of it every now and then but there's one major contender who I see comment hate & bias on every single thread I've ever seen regarding pvp, LEGENDofALL. I've began simply ignoring his posts now.

    Quote Originally Posted by LEGENDofALL View Post
    Another lol thread, seriously in the 7 years of this game who has had the upper hand 75% percent of the time? Freeps did and even today's pvp ,right now there's no clear cut op side and if anything I'd still lean torwards freeps.
    Contrary to the above, I will not ignore this one. Freeps have had the upper hand for the majority of the time because up until a few years ago PvP was balanced around the way lotr lore works, freeps are powerful, creeps (in the BOOKS and FILMS) are weak but there's millions of them, literally. This worked up until the point where creeps began the waterworks that not all freeps were soloable and thus began the age of balance we have now, for better or for worse. Frankly, as stated everywhere by everyone, the game is not 1v1 oriented and as such, balance 1v1 is nothing but a moot point. Since HD, that's a good year, creeps have had the advantage not by BALANCE, but by NUMBERS. They're plenty powerful and in many cases on-par or better than many freep classes, but all that aside, when it's 6v40 as it is day in day out on Brandywhine, how "OP" one side is, is entirely irrelevant, it's a numbers game, and whilst that 6man shouldn't win, that 6man should be able to enjoy their GROUP PVP GAME without the constant zerging of being 100% unable to find a creep group of a similar size, because there's literally no downside at all what-so-ever to bringing 30+ friends to take out that 6man.

    Quote Originally Posted by 007Squanto View Post
    As the OP stated, r0-5's become blue ranks in a couple days and they can faceroll most classes.

    @ Giliodor, as far as group fights go, they are more imbalanced than 1v1s. You dont ever get an ideal freep group vs. and ideal creep group unless its organized. What you get in real pvp is map in after map in, and multiple spiders/defilers/WL's and whatever adding to the mess. Do you see captains and minstrels streaming in to fight like that? No..... but freeps have always been beefy enough to handle the odds (not always but it was a lot more manageable than it is now...)
    This here, is again what I point out above, a numbers game, Illy, you and I often lead pvp groups on Brandy and I'm certain we both come to the same conclusion after a few hours (if that) of "pvp", which is "too many creeps out, lets disband". This is not because creeps are "OP" and they faceroll us 6v6, or 12v12, or even 24v24, it's because they faceroll us 6v24, 12v48, 24v60+. The map-in spots are the single biggest contributor to this, as is the callout mentality from the older pvp days of creepside where a callout was necessary to take out a 6-12man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    This is where things become (close to) balanced... save maybe spiders/the ezmode button called "Vital Target". Honestly, group vs group is actually in the freeps' favour. Let's take an example.
    1 of every creep class (solid group) vs 1 mini, 1 healing RK, 1 red captain, 1 warden, 1 fire RK, 1 LM. Creeps will likely get smashed.
    Gil is both totally correct and totally incorrect. You're correct in saying that there is balance when group makeups are balanced. But when are group makeups ever balanced? I play on THE biggest server on the game and finding a perfect group makeup for a 6-12man is almost impossible 90% of the time, whereas if I want a creep 6man with the perfect makeup, 30 seconds on OOC and I've got it. That 6man gets wrecked? 30 more seconds on OOC and I'm 12. And so on and so on.

    While I agree that the above combo of creeps vs freeps would be a relatively balanced fight, and certainly in the freeps' favour, I've yet to find any organised creep 6man with less than 3 healers, and the addition of just one defiler to the 1WL + 1Def 6man, makes the whole fight entirely unbalanced in the creeps' favour, it makes the whole creep group suddenly unkillable no matter what. This is assuming good creeps vs good freeps, too. As someone else pointed out, I don't know about your server but on Brandy (again, the biggest one) getting a bunch of decent fire RKs and cappies is a challenge, that said I'm quite elitist and there are probably only three cappies I'd say are "good" at the class in red-line.

    Anyway the point I'm trying to make is that yes while there may be balance in a 2healers + 4DPS 6man vs the same freep/creep 6man, it only takes one slight change to bring that fight to total unbalance, and yes you could slap another mini into the fight, but how do you expect to take out two or three creep healers with 2-3 dps? And what do you think is more likely, that a healspec solo mini rolls along into your 6v6 and joins in, making you win the fight, or that a defiler rolls in, or a war-leader, or a spider, or a warg, or a BA? On Brandywine, you might see one freep wander into a fight for every additional 10 creeps a callout yields, and every fight no matter how small is called out, half the rank 15s on Brandywine have and OOC callout bound to all quickslots on a 3-row quickbar.

    Pvp is sad right now, once the benefit zerging yields to a creep is gone, and zerging stops, then we'll have balance and good pvp, until then it doesn't matter who's more powerful, creeps will win every time. Whether it's now, cause your group didn't move out quick enough from being near a mapin spot (anywhere on the map within 300m) or 5 minutes after you move out. You will wipe, to creeps 3-8x your numbers every single time.
    Absolution

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post


    This here, is again what I point out above, a numbers game, Illy, you and I often lead pvp groups on Brandy and I'm certain we both come to the same conclusion after a few hours (if that) of "pvp", which is "too many creeps out, lets disband". This is not because creeps are "OP" and they faceroll us 6v6, or 12v12, or even 24v24, it's because they faceroll us 6v24, 12v48, 24v60+. The map-in spots are the single biggest contributor to this, as is the callout mentality from the older pvp days of creepside where a callout was necessary to take out a 6-12man.



    Around Oceanic prime(midday EU), more often than not, the map is either blue or there are enough freeps to hold a lug bd-ec fight. And it's not just callout mentality, creeps will flip TR or LUG without a second thought for killing action when it's the only blue keep left just for the infamy, lol.

 

 
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