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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    Their ability to dialogue, debate, weighing the pros and cons, the willingness to set aside what they want personally and acknowledge what would be better for a majority of players and support that choice as a result.
    This. This is key. It doesn't matter how popular someone is, or even how "right" someone is. They have to be able to discuss, not argue and bicker. They have to be able to discuss fairly intelligently. This is why post history is looked at probably more than post count. I know I didn't post much before I joined the Council.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    No, actually it is part of the job. Many times a conversation starts: "Hey, guys, I saw this idea on X in this thread.............." We constantly bring things to the table from the wider forums. Its one of the reasons to include various play styles.
    I certainly hope this forum is not the only venue they draw from. A lot of views, communities, and IMHO, some of the best of the LOTRO player base may avoid these forums precisely for the kind of vitriol and such that can come from it.

    That said, drawing from outside of the forums might lead folks to figure select groups are unduly empowered with members of the group. Which brings me back to the thought that while they are fine as a focus group something broader, mechanical in function, might do well as a control sample. (in the statistical sense.)

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post
    The fact that the hands down most intelligent poster was not recognized by the 'team' as being a desirable Council Member speaks volumes about what kind of people you are looking for to be on the Council
    I don't usually do this, but frankly, I find your faith in this fellow alarming. Not to mention the freedom with which you manage to insult just about everyone associated with the game (current Council, prospective Council, devs, Sapience, anyone reading your posts)...that takes some special skill with words.

    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBranywine View Post
    I don't mean that as an insult. I just disagree with your choices.
    Actually, you should probably go and re-read all of your posts. And look up "insult" in a dictionary.

    And, by the way, spelunker's ideas (just like anyone else's) do have a chance of catching the eye of a dev or a Council member so all is not lost. Have a little faith and stop personalizing a game.


    P.S. Congrats and best wishes to all of the new Council members and a big thank you to the 2013 guinea pigs on a job well done!
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comstrike View Post
    I certainly hope this forum is not the only venue they draw from. A lot of views, communities, and IMHO, some of the best of the LOTRO player base may avoid these forums precisely for the kind of vitriol and such that can come from it.

    That said, drawing from outside of the forums might lead folks to figure select groups are unduly empowered with members of the group. Which brings me back to the thought that while they are fine as a focus group something broader, mechanical in function, might do well as a control sample. (in the statistical sense.)
    No, forums are not the only place. Other discussions start with "Hey, some "X-group" have been discussing this..............." Or "Hey, this has been coming up more and more often in game..............."

  5. #105
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    #5 its more discussion than grind.
    That sounds very appealing.

    Well, I guess until next year!

    Btw, it would also be interesting to have some kind of short résumé from each of the outgoing PCM's for the public, to have a better insight of how they see their time and work in retrospective.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    turbine could be far more efficacious in listening to what the players are looking for in the game with a wholly different strategy.
    But I think that's part of the value of the PC. That there are a bunch of different people to provide alternative perspectives directly to the team. Even if different strategies aren't undertaken by Turbine directly, those strategies and angles might be brought to them anyway via the type of feedback and input they get from a wide range of playstyles and personalities.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    . . . This is why post history is looked at probably more than post count. I know I didn't post much before I joined the Council.
    This. If the forums are the prime method used to balance and weigh who gets invited or invited to apply I would suggest again that there ought to be a wider body. Granted those who know they are being surveyed tend to skew their answers to appease an unseen judge. Yet form a congress of players, by nomination or otherwise. Make it "large." Send the surveys, let something other than rhetorically walking naked through the forums for all to judge. Scout beyond the walls of this forum. Remove the forums from the equation for at least some of those who very obviously play but are also not inclined to slum it here. *on Edit: And likewise, expand a persons track record beyond posting here. Expand the pool of where people are tapped from.

    At least having a wider base would help in depoliticizing it among some or leaving folks bearing the brunt of opinion where that occurs.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post

    Btw, it would also be interesting to have some kind of short résumé from each of the outgoing PCM's for the public, to have a better insight of how they see their time and work in retrospective.
    Some of the 2013 PC were kind enough to talk about their game history in a public setting. A number of them took the time to even stop in and mention it to sections of the playerbase (Instance ; PvMP subforums..Class forums, etc.)

    Alas, some of these threads became the threads with the largest amounts of CoC violations I've seen outside of the PvMP forum in years. Thats probably why I can't find them.

    If such as a thread is compiled and shared. I'd hope it'd be with the names removed. I hope individual PC members this year will continue to be as willing as others in the PC2013 were to discuss their game-experience and interest prior to their selection with the rest of us in public. Remember that whether or not they continue to do so or have others come out to join will be almost entirely a result of how the rest of us behave. That is, if its not precluded by changes made to the NDA this year.

    Quote Originally Posted by Comstrike View Post
    Expand the pool of where people are tapped from.
    I believe this was what telling players to nominate others was all about.
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  9. #109
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Wow, interesting turn to this thread.

    I did fill out an application last year without giving it too much thought, though obviously I wasn't selected then which I am happy for. I thought about it more when the announcement was made this year for applications and I did not apply, and quite frankly would have declined had I been offered one based on nominations. I even told people who mentioned nominating me not to, because I would have declined anyway and they should nominate some one who would actually join and hopefully do good things within the parameters of the PC setup. At this point, my forum infractions and the nature of some of them probably preclude me from consideration anyway.

    While I don't share some people's outlook that the PC is just some public relations sham, the paradigm under which it operates is so fundamentally flawed and inefficient that the relative usefulness of the PC is only relevant as a function of public relations. It might lose some PR luster, but turbine could be far more efficacious in listening to what the players are looking for in the game with a wholly different strategy.

    I hope the people who were selected enjoy their time on the PC and think differently than me when things are all said and done. Congrats to them as well.
    For starters I want to apologize for this thread singling you out the way it has (though to be fair I GoB was honestly trying to promote your views in a positive light, though maybe not in the best way). I always want to thank you for your post and for clearing up your side of things. Also, for the record, last year and this year both we have members who have 'questionable' posts in the past as well as various infractions. We do weigh a lot of factors, so unless you are currently banned for some reason you would still have had a fair review and consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Comstrike View Post
    I certainly hope this forum is not the only venue they draw from. A lot of views, communities, and IMHO, some of the best of the LOTRO player base may avoid these forums precisely for the kind of vitriol and such that can come from it.
    It's not. In fact last year some people complained that members of the council had 0 posts and tried to argue that meant they weren't good additions. I think one actually had never made a forum account until they applied. I said at the time that it actually means there is a new voice being heard or a different voice than the devs usually hear from. That can be a very helpful thing.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    No, forums are not the only place. Other discussions start with "Hey, some "X-group" have been discussing this..............." Or "Hey, this has been coming up more and more often in game..............."
    Interesting and encouraging with regard to the group itself. It might work well then to codify some of that by having a congress of such parties gathered and let the surveys do the work of helping both Turbine and the PC sort through things. And it would broaden the base of PC prospects.

  11. #111
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comstrike View Post
    Interesting and encouraging with regard to the group itself. It might work well then to codify some of that by having a congress of such parties gathered and let the surveys do the work of helping both Turbine and the PC sort through things. And it would broaden the base of PC prospects.

    At the risk of sounding snide, I really don't think we need a committee on the committee. If you follow my point.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comstrike View Post
    This. If the forums are the prime method used to balance and weigh who gets invited or invited to apply I would suggest again that there ought to be a wider body. Granted those who know they are being surveyed tend to skew their answers to appease an unseen judge. Yet form a congress of players, by nomination or otherwise. Make it "large." Send the surveys, let something other than rhetorically walking naked through the forums for all to judge. Scout beyond the walls of this forum. Remove the forums from the equation for at least some of those who very obviously play but are also not inclined to slum it here. *on Edit: And likewise, expand a persons track record beyond posting here. Expand the pool of where people are tapped from.

    At least having a wider base would help in depoliticizing it among some or leaving folks bearing the brunt of opinion where that occurs.
    Sounds great, as an idea. The reality is something else. The forums are the place where many of these ideas come from. While I'm sure there are some ideas generated or discussed in game, that's usually as far as they go. When doing something like a player council you have to start somewhere. The forums are a logical choice. This is where the players come when they feel strongly (for better or worse) about something that's happened. The forums is where many of these discussions start. As has been demonstrated, just having an idea is not enough. You have to show that you are willing to share that idea in the appropriate venue (i.e. The Forums) and have that idea discussed by a larger group. In all honesty, the players who "politicize" the PC, are going to politicize it no matter how its formed. Again, a "congress of players" carries with it certain implications and expectations that may not reflect the reality of things. The council is a congress in the sense that it is a group that comes together to discuss certain things. It is not a governing body in any way.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    I find it "alarming" that a number of people seem to still have false assumptions about what the council members are supposed to do... or are required to do.

    No single person can be (or should be) expected to be able to stay abreast of everything that goes on. Of the hundreds of people who use the forums, you expect council members would know all posters or read every post?
    Straw Man Argument:

    "The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" implies an adversarial, polemic, or combative debate, and creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument, ("knock down a straw man,") instead of the original proposition."

    I don't "expect council members to know all posters or read every post." I said no such thing. This is a straw man argument. Fairly sure this qualifies as a violation of the forum CoC (trolling/baiting). If you wish to engage me in a conversation, please construct a serious post next time (and please, cut down on the melodrama).

    It is also "alarming" that you seem to think any one person is important enough to be "deserving" to be on... or "expected" to be on the 2014 PC.
    Straw Man Argument:

    "The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" implies an adversarial, polemic, or combative debate, and creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument, ("knock down a straw man,") instead of the original proposition."

    I'm getting deja vu...

    Here, you use quotes around the words "deserved" or "expected," but I'm not sure why. You give the illusion that you're quoting something, when in reality they're your own words. Again, you create a straw man and attack a fabricated statement. I can't tell if you're trolling again or if you actually wish to be taken seriously?

    I do also find it telling that someone who *you* thought would be a good council member didn't get a nomination from you. If "spelunker" would be such a good person to be on the council, why couldn't you have taken the 2 minutes to send off an email nominating him?

    If you couldn't take TWO MINUTES to show your support for one (or more) person you thought would be a good choice, that speaks volumes about yourself.
    Like I said before, if Turbine isn't willing to help themselves, there's nothing I can do that will make any difference.

    If they can't see on their own that spelunker would be a valuable asset, then they are beyond help.

    And do you always take personal shots at people over the internet? You come across as an angry teenager. If you aren't able to engage in a conversation without making melodramatic attacks at someone's character, perhaps you should take a break from the forums until you cool down a little bit.

    you set up (in your own mind) Turbine to fail you meet your own twisted expectations.
    It is pretty clear that *you* weren't actually all that interested in seeing a "successful" 2014 PC. Again, you couldn't spare 2 minutes of your time to send a nomination for "spelunker". So, it is pretty obvious that your "concern" about the game is nothing more than hot air.
    But, could you be bothered to help influence the game during this important time? Nope. Couldn't spare 2 minutes to nominate some good people to the bench. Nope. Couldn't be bothered to actually demonstrate concern or interest in a meaningful way. Nope. Couldn't be bothered to actually put your support behind this "spelunker" who you claim is so great and important.
    Nope. All you seem to be interested in is finding another opportunity to slam Sapience/Turbine because they didn't do what you wanted... when you couldn't even bother to tell them what you wanted. Let's continue to slam Turbine and complain about the direction of the game... but never actually make the effort to influence the game when the opportunity was in front of us. Yes, that will surely work!
    then just shut the hell up... just go away... you won't be missed I am sure of that... you have no room to speak... no credibility at all.
    Take some deep breaths and stop frothing at the mouth. I debated going through this histrionic rant and responding to each of your tirades in kind, but...nah. I'll save my time for posters who can engage in an adult conversation.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post
    If they can't see on their own that spelunker would be a valuable asset, then they are beyond help.
    Spelunker was wise enough to decide he wouldn't be a valuable asset this year, even if he was invited.

    This means Turbine was equally as wise to not extend the invitation. Perhaps they even had someone witness those very remarks (they may have been in kin/ ooc / etc..)
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  15. #115
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    Although I wasn't selected as an applicant this year, I wish the player's council well, thank you all for contributing in your small way to our current and future success as a player base.
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  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palentian View Post
    As has been demonstrated, just having an idea is not enough. You have to show that you are willing to share that idea in the appropriate venue (i.e. The Forums) and have that idea discussed by a larger group.
    I think this is an important point. Anyone who shares their views, suggestions, creativity, etc. is sticking their neck out in some way, and putting themselves in the line of fire from those who are not like-minded, or who for one reason or another deem that person worthy of mockery or contempt. Online discussions can be an extremely hostile environment. As a result, not everyone who has great ideas is willing/able to come forward online to share those ideas. Who could blame them? Heck, even being on the PC is often used as an excuse to deride and mistreat those who stick their necks out by being involved.

    So it's valuable if at least some of the members of the PC are actively social in multiple venues - here, fansites and unofficial forums, social media, in-game, etc. so that they might be able to encounter and bring forward some of the more hesitant voices that would otherwise not be heard. That's why I think Turbine's approach of attempting to bring a variety of personalities together is key to the whole process.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by LongMarch View Post
    I don't usually do this, but frankly, I find your faith in this fellow alarming.
    Perhaps you should read some of the long threads on this forum that discuss balance, the future of the game, class changes, and so on. In every scenario that I've encountered, he makes the best points, does extensive analysis, and offers the most insightful suggestions. I honestly believe that you would feel the same way if you read what I have read. And from the number of people that I've had agree with me, this seems to be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    Spelunker was wise enough to decide he wouldn't be a valuable asset this year, even if he was invited.
    Yes. It's quite a shame, but like I've stated before, I completely understand why.

    This means Turbine was equally as wise to not extend the invitation.
    ??

    No it does not. The fact that he would decline (which was unknown to Turbine) does not mean that their inability to recognize his value from their forum activity was any wiser. This is nonsensical.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post
    Like I said before, if Turbine isn't willing to help themselves, there's nothing I can do that will make any difference.
    Do you see the irony of that statement at all?

    It actually reminds me of a joke I once heard:

    So there's this huge flood one day, and an entire town looks like it's going to be swallowed up by the waters. And the Police and Rescue Agencies are running all over the place trying to get people to safety.

    So they send the rescue boat over to this house where a guy's sitting on the roof with the water lapping around his ankles and they say "Come on, quickly, there isn't much time"

    To which he says "Nah, it's ok, God will Provide"

    So about an hour later they're zooming past in the boat again and they notice the guy's still there, only the water's up to his waist, almost at the top of the roof.. "Quick" they say, get in the boat, it's going to get worst before it gets better.

    "Nah, don't worry - God will Provide"

    An hour after that a rescue helicopter flies over the area and notices the guy, who must be standing on the peak of the roof now, with only his head and shoulders out of the water. "GRAB THE ROPE!" they cry "IT'S YOUR ONLY HOPE!"

    "Don't worry" he replies calmly "God will provide."

    So he gets drowned of course. And he goes to heaven, and is a little ticked off with god for drowing him like that, and expresses his concern saying "I had FAITH, I BELIEVED in you - and still you didn't help me"

    "HELP YOU?!" God replies "What MORE did you want - I sent you two boats and a helicopter!"

  19. #119
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    I forgot the most important reason why I didn't applied for PC so far: The contract!

    I understand the heuristic behind a contract but in my (naive) POV it is a pretty weird way of communication of "yeah, sure" to someone that just wants to help.
    Especially when you see yourself as a thrustworthy person. But well, in a way, trust doesn't count in a virtual relationship.

    But as I said, I understand the need for it. Others may not...

    I just want to point out there are some bitter pills to swallow and some artificial obstacles to overcome before applying / a seat in the PC becomes interesting.

    And to be honest, some just need a kick in the ### to make that decision. *smiles at spelunker*
    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Apr 22 2014 at 02:01 PM.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    At the risk of sounding snide, I really don't think we need a committee on the committee. If you follow my point.
    I do and I don't mean it as a "committee" more as a glorified mailing list. Cat herding is all I do all day, the last thing I'd inflict is the same on somebody's team. Likewise I've read and agree with your points given in response to people demanding votes on stuff, etc.

    I'm simply suggesting that the right survey tool, selective but broader invitations, might both provide a more direct flow of ideas from qualified contributors and even establish a track record to consider later. And a painless way of moving on from some contributors without the outside world know it.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post
    The fact that he would decline (which was unknown to Turbine) does not mean that their inability to recognize his value from their forum activity was any wiser. This is nonsensical.
    Actually, by his own admission he has some infractions. That may well have precluded his inclusion anyway. This whole part of the thread is rather moot at this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by frickinmuck
    think this is an important point. Anyone who shares their views, suggestions, creativity, etc. is sticking their neck out in some way, and putting themselves in the line of fire from those who are not like-minded, or who for one reason or another deem that person worthy of mockery or contempt. Online discussions can be an extremely hostile environment. As a result, not everyone who has great ideas is willing/able to come forward online to share those ideas. Who could blame them? Heck, even being on the PC is often used as an excuse to deride and mistreat those who stick their necks out by being involved.

    So it's valuable if at least some of the members of the PC are actively social in multiple venues - here, fansites and unofficial forums, social media, in-game, etc. so that they might be able to encounter and bring forward some of the more hesitant voices that would otherwise not be heard. That's why I think Turbine's approach of attempting to bring a variety of personalities together is key to the whole process.
    Yeah, it does rather require a thickish skin.

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post

    No it does not. The fact that he would decline (which was unknown to Turbine) does not mean that their inability to recognize his value from their forum activity was any wiser. This is nonsensical.
    I don't see why presuming that Turbine had no way of knowing he'd decline is necessarily more preposterous than assuming they did.

    A former +GM remarked at a convention (Pax Prime 2013 I think..) That while an employee he pugged in a new raid on launch day and played it with others as they described how they were going to exploit it. Later, those users remarked. 'Its almost like they had someone in our group..' Yup. Thats what happened.

    They've got ears everywhere. They may be kinnies, your acquaintances on GLFF ,the no-voice pug member you wish would just toggle it on to hear but can't risk it lest they speak and their voice be recognized. (due to a mispress of the wrong push to talk button or something else..)

    As +Sapience pointed out and the PC2013 members list indicates. Infractions aren't an automatic disqualification. Just dont have a current ban when you're applying.
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  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    For starters I want to apologize for this thread singling you out the way it has
    Just wanted to chime in here to say that I find it a little weird and uncomfortable that this thread has pretty much become an open discussion of one specific person's suitability for the PC. This doesn't seem appropriate or wise, and to hold up one particular person as a litmus test of the worthiness of the Council strikes me as unfair all around (e.g., imagine that this person WAS on the Council but then Turbine did something that you strongly disagreed with (which, let's face it, is inevitable). What then?).

    I don't particularly like how the Player's Council has been handled to date (and how it appears it will continue to be handled in the future), but I also don't particularly believe that it is a force of evil. I offer my sincere best wishes to those who have accepted a position on the Council, and I hope that they find opportunities to enact positive change.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanteIL View Post
    ...
    I don't particularly like how the Player's Council has been handled to date (and how it appears it will continue to be handled in the future), but I also don't particularly believe that it is a force of evil. ...
    Is there some thing in particular?

    Transparency?

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by GodOfBrandywine View Post
    . It seems like a very stressful job, working with developers who - albeit clearly have a passion for the game and work very hard - are in many ways completely incompetent..
    Wise words. +1
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