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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    The players council is a focus group. It is not a PR branch for LOTRO.

    PR and the publication of information and the timing of publications remains solely with Turbine. Only Turbine can say what, where, when and how things will be disclosed.
    I think part of the request for some NDA lightening is due to 1. A desire for more transparency building a greater trust with both Turbine and the selected members. 2.That the players selected are doing their best to steward the game. 3. That the 2013 announcement stated as a responsibility of members "From time to time, be asked to help draft a report on the council’s activities for publication to the entire community." This line is not in the 2014 announcement. 5. +Rowan's desire and evidenced choice to interact more regularly with the community.

    I would encourage any players interested in helping steward the future of Middle Earth to apply if you feel you'd be a good fit, or nominate another player if you think they'd do a good job!
    Last edited by Crell_1; Mar 25 2014 at 02:57 PM.
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  2. #27
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    I think part of the request for some NDA lightening is due to 1. A desire for more transparency building a greater trust with both Turbine and the selected members.
    This is actually very hard because the need to be able to talk concepts with the council means they have to be under an NDA that cannot be made more transparent. It's even earlier than Palantir players and often more "blue sky" than anything. Without an ability to have frank, open, and sometimes exceptionally blunt conversations about certain things without the concern that it will be broadcast all over the place, then this simply doesn't work. It's why we take the PC NDA very, very seriously.

    That said, and don't misunderstand I'm not opening a conversation on the merits of transparency here, we will try this year to be a bit more relaxed in what the council can talk about AFTER it goes live. For example possibly allowing a discussion of the process, but not the details of how something came into being or was refined. Things that never go live, or that are just broad discussions, will still fall under the NDA.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    This is actually very hard because the need to be able to talk concepts with the council means they have to be under an NDA that cannot be made more transparent. It's even earlier than Palantir players and often more "blue sky" than anything. Without an ability to have frank, open, and sometimes exceptionally blunt conversations about certain things without the concern that it will be broadcast all over the place, then this simply doesn't work. It's why we take the PC NDA very, very seriously.

    That said, and don't misunderstand I'm not opening a conversation on the merits of transparency here, we will try this year to be a bit more relaxed in what the council can talk about AFTER it goes live. For example possibly allowing a discussion of the process, but not the details of how something came into being or was refined. Things that never go live, or that are just broad discussions, will still fall under the NDA.
    It's very interesting that you post this on the same day that Cordovan on the DDO forums posted this:

    https://www.ddo.com/en/news/2014-ddo...uncil-update-1



    Perhaps you can speak to why you feel that LOTRO needs a tighter NDA about both the process and content of the Player's Council discussions than apparently is the case for the DDO Player's Council.

  4. #29
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanteIL View Post
    It's very interesting that you post this on the same day that Cordovan on the DDO forums posted this:

    https://www.ddo.com/en/news/2014-ddo...uncil-update-1



    Perhaps you can speak to why you feel that LOTRO needs a tighter NDA about both the process and content of the Player's Council discussions than apparently is the case for the DDO Player's Council.
    Different games will obviously have different focus, expectations and needs. For example, DDO's council replaced their private preview world. LOTRO's is still intact and LOTRO's Council actually discusses some items long before they reach the Palantir server which still has it's NDA very firmly in place.

    Also, in the past (and again with U13 when it ships) those things the council had input on or contributed, are listed clearly in the release notes. So we do pass along the things they have done and been part of.

    There is an element of apples and oranges here.
    Last edited by Sapience; Mar 25 2014 at 04:14 PM.

  5. #30
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    Is it possible, at the end of each Council term, to post a thread that highlights the previous Council's term. Ideally, it would highlight those things that went live that the talks with the Council helped bring into fruition, as well as any and all other aspects of the Council's term that are possible to share (not prevented from being shared by NDA). Kinda like a state of the Council type of thing. It would likely help those who are not on the Council to better understand how the Council truly affects those things that do go live and how the Council benefits the players. Having their efforts mentioned in the update notes is awesome, but how many miss out on learning about what discussions with the Council contributed to because they either glance over the notes for the things that are relevant to what they're interested in, or they only read a summary posted to their kinsite by someone who did read it all but failed to note anything about the Council?
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    This is actually very hard because the need to be able to talk concepts with the council means they have to be under an NDA that cannot be made more transparent. It's even earlier than Palantir players and often more "blue sky" than anything. Without an ability to have frank, open, and sometimes exceptionally blunt conversations about certain things without the concern that it will be broadcast all over the place, then this simply doesn't work. It's why we take the PC NDA very, very seriously.

    For example possibly allowing a discussion of the process, but not the details of how something came into being or was refined. Things that never go live, or that are just broad discussions, will still fall under the NDA.
    I don't expect this to be easy at all. I expect it's going to be a very hard process both for Turbine, and the players on the council itself. I feel it would be very beneficial where ever it can be allowed for the player base as a whole. +Rowan's efforts thus far as well as his history with DDO leave me encouraged that whatever actions are taken, that we'll be hearing more from and interacting with Turbine on topics earlier in the process for everyone moving forward.


    Process discussions & feedback on how impactful the players feel their interactions are/would be an excellent start. I recognize the inherent disparity of the two games because their Private Preview Program (Morunlands) was closed down, while ours (Palantir) is still ongoing. Because it seems like their council is doing the dual work of both of our programs (LOTRO PC & Palantir) it strikes me as somewhat odd that without that additional more private period between when players privately see it and when the public sees it that their council could be more transparent than ours. Perhaps an appropriate time to allow more transparency on the process or things that might be upcoming is when it would hit the 'Palantir' stage of feedback.

    It seems to me that unlike beta player diaries, the thing that I appreciate most about their feedback is the sheer quantity of published responses, and the fact that it's early enough in the process to still feel relevant or exciting. The beta diaries as best as I can recall, generally came after the dev diaries on the topics they were addressing and were limited to 2-4 players small paragraphs.
    Last edited by Crell_1; Mar 26 2014 at 08:42 AM.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    I just wanted to quickly address one concern I'm seeing in a number of applications so far.

    We will NOT publish your real name. Unlike last year we will also not be publishing your character name. The only name that will be on the final council announcement will be your Forum Name. This is public anyway as it's displayed every time you post.
    may we request our character name to be displayed as opposed to our forum name?

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  8. #33

    Approx time commitment?

    Could someone express approximatly the time commitment needed to participate, per day/week/month, to be better able to gauge availability?

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  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Krysstofur View Post
    Could someone express approximatly the time commitment needed to participate, per day/week/month, to be better able to gauge availability?
    There isn't a set schedule, like in beta you chime in when you can but you do have to chime in.

    The group is a Focus Group so feedback is important and timely feedback even more so. Staying up to date on issues takes a good chunk of time too. I cannot say for others but I spend a great deal of my "free" time working, reading, thinking and giving feedback in the PC.

    It's not a trivial amount of time, and it's hard work to give good feedback and it's really hard work to learn about aspects of the game you never ever considered important but that are important to others and to give constructive feedback on those items too.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krysstofur View Post
    Could someone express approximatly the time commitment needed to participate, per day/week/month, to be better able to gauge availability?
    Well, I can speak for the past year. Generally, because of councilors from all over the world, its pretty open. There are discussions that you will be expected to participate in, but many of them are on the council forums. Makes it pretty open. It looks like this coming year they are going to use Skype a little. They will most likely schedule any Skype meetings around everyone's schedule. In short, there's nothing like "You have to be here from 10 am - 12 pm". This year, its been fairly flexible. If you have a business trip or vacation, just let them know "Hey, I'll be gone for a couple days." It isn't usually a huge deal.

  11. #36
    The players council is not focus group. It is a PR branch for LOTRO. ....fixed
    Right now on Landroval there is a MASSIVE chicken run going on, just for fun. http://www.twitch.tv/lotro_abby Things like this are not uncommon...... welcome to the joke that is endgame

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Hetweith View Post
    The players council is not focus group. It is a PR branch for LOTRO. ....fixed
    Apply to the council, get selected and then after your year in the council, come back to this statement with real info....
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    Apply to the council, get selected and then after your year in the council, come back to this statement with real info....
    This. I've heard player council members repeatedly say that its best described as a focus group. Sure, it generates some positive PR by letting players apply to become a part of the early development discussions, but that's not the primary intent.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hetweith View Post
    The players council is not focus group. It is a PR branch for LOTRO. ....fixed
    I've been in focus groups. I'm in a few now. While focus groups can be used for PR purposes, many are not so used. I'm not on the Players Council.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krysstofur View Post
    Could someone express approximatly the time commitment needed to participate, per day/week/month, to be better able to gauge availability?
    I would say that at minimum you should be able to check in weekly. I tend to spend an hour (not in one go!) each day, on average, browsing through threads, replying etc. It *is* a lot of work but no-one is required to do more than they can give.

    One thing that is good to point out: Everyone in the council is taking their time to think through and formulate good feedback. Just saying "that suggestion stinks" is not good enough, you have to express why it stinks and how the devs can make it not-stink. That takes time, especially if English is not your primary language.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krysstofur View Post
    Could someone express approximatly the time commitment needed to participate, per day/week/month, to be better able to gauge availability?
    depends...There are multiple discussions at one time, all different topics...so depending on how many areas you want to focus on, you could be very busy, to very open at times.

    I went on vacation for a week, came back and was totally out of the loop at one time

    But there are times I can spend a week away and be fine. I would say a couple times a week to check in, read up, a day or so to think about a response, and then post, wait for response etc.

    average, a few hours per week is a good number. could be more at times, could be less. Over the last couple of weeks, many of us have been spending the majority of the day a few times per week posting

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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    This. I've heard player council members repeatedly say that its best described as a focus group. Sure, it generates some positive PR by letting players apply to become a part of the early development discussions, but that's not the primary intent.
    If most of the work they do can never be spoken about, it's hard to call it PR. I know from being in beta, player feedback is essential to the process, particularly in NDA beta. When you are developing a product that must be delivered to an audience, the earlier you are able to get input from people from that audience, the better for the final product.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krysstofur View Post
    Could someone express approximatly the time commitment needed to participate, per day/week/month, to be better able to gauge availability?
    My turn to chime in.

    I found that it took about 2 hours more or less of my time a day. So instead of playing I would be reading PC and general forums and posting. No doubt it was a reducing in my play time. Some of the items discussed were very involved and required long write ups and other just the old "Yes good idea so and so" or "This is nothing I am interested in seeing added to the game."

    There were weekends when I spent 4 to 5 hours a day with the PC and others I spend an hour all weekend.

    As Delmore pointed out sometimes you could be gone for a week and nothing new or really exciting would have happened. Other times you could be gone for two days and find a thread with 60 replies, just like here. but there is no required number of posts per week on anything like that.

    But for all the things being said about what we really are: Sab has it right.

    If you think the PC is nothing worth doing or that you can not be selected because many infractions, then it is nothing but a bunch of fan boys, etc. Then say what you wish and do not apply.
    If you feel you can provide good feed back on both good and bad ideas, in your personal opinion, in a constructive manner to help improve the game from the player's point of view then apply.

    Final Point: Live the PC NDA!!!!

    The reason the PC worked so well this year is that nothing was discussed outside the confines of the PC. Even the most combustible issues we discussed did not reach the main forums. If they had then 2013 would have been the only year the PC council would have been formed. IMO only of course.

    So those that make the 2014 version of the PC have fun and take care of the rest of us!!!!!
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  19. #44
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    Personal activity level depends to what degree you involve yourself in the array of discussion, if there are any burning topics at the moment where comment volume might be more intense, or there might be some sense of urgency to a thread. If I were to average out time I allotted to Council matters over the year, maybe 5+ hours per average week would be a fair minimum estimation of the time I invested.

    Good luck to the applicants.
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  20. #45
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    When does the nomination period end, by the way?
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  21. #46
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    Today or yesterday...

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by CarltheRed View Post
    When does the nomination period end, by the way?
    Quote Originally Posted by Finranduil View Post
    Today or yesterday...
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Starting Today, March 21st, 2014, we invite players to apply for the LOTRO Player’s Council. Don’t want to join yourself? Recommend a fellow player you feel will be a positive addition to the council. We may also select players based on their in-game and community behavior and extend an invitation even if they have not otherwise applied or been nominated. Council members will be announced on April 24th.

    Edit: I was mentioned that we failed to give an end date for appliations to be accepted. April 14th is the last day to submit your applicaiton. This gives us 10 days to contact and verify the new members before the announcement on April 24th. Sorry for the oversight.
    Applications April 14. Announcements April 24, 2014.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  23. #48
    Is there a way for us to vouch for an applicant to represent the folks of Landroval?
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  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tromblon View Post
    ... to represent the folks of Landroval?
    The Player Council members don't serve as 'representatives'. The only person they represent for is themselves.

  25. #50
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    We've sent out the invitations for this year's council. So please check the email address you listed in your application. If you didn't receive a reply, we thank you for applying and hope you'll considering applying again next year. Of course, there is still the possibility that if someone cannot participate, or has to be removed for some reason, you could be called upon to replace them.


    I just want to touch on a couple of things.

    There is no 'representative of my server'. All 29 servers play the same game. While you may have variations in population, play times, or other things, the game you are playing is the same as everyone else on ever server. So we won't be listed people by server this year as it sent the wrong message last year.

    Also, the word "representative" should be thought of more in terms of a "representative sample of the player population as a whole."

 

 
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