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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by VoronturEU View Post
    To be honest, as far as I'm remembering, only Beorn and his direct descendants could shape-shift.
    I wouldn't really class a shape-shifting class as being within the spirit of the lore.
    Within the narrow confines of The Hobbit and LOTR, yes. However, in Tolkien's legendarium, there existed also were-wolves, allies of a First Age Sauron, who were shape-shifters (Silmarillon). And possibly others that I'm not aware of. And once you have Beornings and were-wolves (even if LOTRO can't access that particular lore because Silm is beyond the scope of their license), you pretty much open the world up to "what other shape shifters" questions, as well. Remember, Turbine can expand upon the available lore, they just can't do so in a way that is not supported by the license holders, or in a way that might cause the Tolkien estate to consider a lawsuit, and they can't directly touch upon any lore that DOES exist in sources they don't have rights to (like the Silm, or the Professor's letters, etc). In other words, the existence of the Beornings (and the unspoken knowledge on the part of all concerned that there were OTHER shape-shifters out there as well) opens the door for Turbine's creative juices to flow in an appropriate way.
    Last edited by Angadan; Mar 14 2014 at 07:43 PM.

  2. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Rothan117 View Post
    Sorry but I am not thrilled about it. I do not see a new class getting folks to come back who left over the declining quality of the content and expansions. Personally, I have gone from running alts of every class except LM to just running one character, abandoned all the others due to the quality of the content and finding it boring after just once through. And they were all max level at the end of RoR. A new class is not going to change that for me nor can I get excited about leveling a new character.
    Agreed, but maybe getting folks back is not the goal. I hope I'm wrong but I suspect we (folks who have left) are already written off, and the new class will be aimed at bringing in new players, not convincing previous customers to come back.
    Estellost, loving husband of the wonderful Shinarra

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    I think you're selling her short. I'm pretty sure I ended up in double digit deaths. Barely made it to the Trollshaws.
    I tried to keep track, but at some point I just had to stop and focus on logging the chat and trying to keep up with the QnA. It got pretty hectic even before the +Rowan reveal.

    Maybe Frickinmuck will include the score in her QnA thread =)
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dworin View Post
    Agreed, but maybe getting folks back is not the goal. I hope I'm wrong but I suspect we (folks who have left) are already written off, and the new class will be aimed at bringing in new players, not convincing previous customers to come back.
    I think you have it right.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    But it is within the lore of this time period in Middle-earth. You could say that the only reason it wasn't mentioned in LOTR is because the fellowship's path didn't happen to take them into contact with Beornings (or any other shape-shifters). Not to say I hope the new class will be shape-shifters, I personally think that's more of a race/species thing. Just saying that it's not lore-inappropriate, nor outside Turbine's license scope (they have access to The Hobbit as well, of course).
    No, like I said it wouldn't be within the scope of the trilogy to have loads of such people suddenly running around all over Middle-earth turning into bears and getting directly involved in the Fellowship's business (basically, being put on centre stage in the War of the Ring) when the Fellowship never even meets so much as one Beorning. It's not as if they turned up at the Council of Elrond, or anything - they're entirely peripheral to the story, mentioned only in passing.

    And no, Turbine don't have the license to The Hobbit any more.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    No, like I said it wouldn't be within the scope of the trilogy to have loads of such people suddenly running around all over Middle-earth turning into bears and getting directly involved in the Fellowship's business....

    And no, Turbine don't have the license to The Hobbit any more.
    You mean in the way it would be inappropriate to the lore to have loads of hobbits running around all over Middle-earth getting directly involved in the Fellowship's business? We have disagreed on this point before, but I will repeat my viewpoint at the risk of seeming tedious: from my perspective, I would be the only hobbit or beorning or one-eyed elf or whatever I am, getting involved. We're not ALL thousands of us carrying a single message from Glorfindel to the sons of Elrond (for example). It's only when you give up immersion that your perspective forces you to realize there are tens of thousands of players all doing the same tasks, one after the other.

    When did Turbine's license change to not include The Hobbit? With the recent license renewal? I had not heard that.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    Within the narrow confines of The Hobbit and LOTR, yes. However, in Tolkien's legendarium, there existed also were-wolves, allies of a First Age Sauron, who were shape-shifters (Silmarillon).
    No, the werewolves in the Sil aren't shape-shifters. They always appear as huge, demonic wolves.

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Arithik View Post
    Well, how much was Warden when it first came out?
    The warden came out before free to play, so before the store. It was included in the Mines of Moria expansion along with the runekeeper. I expect the new class will cost at least as much as unlocking the warden or runekeeper class does now (795 TP).

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    No, the werewolves in the Sil aren't shape-shifters. They always appear as huge, demonic wolves.
    Of course they're shape shifters, says it right there in the prison scenes.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Not within the lore of the trilogy: LOTR doesn't actually mention it even so much as once. I'd like to think they could come up with something more imaginative than that, in any case.
    Um, sorry to the Lore police here, but yes they are passingly mentioned in the Trilogy.. page 222 and 420 (In My edition at least Your pages might vary)

    Fellowship Of The Ring Chapter 1 Many Meetings
    "'lndeed,' said Glóin, `if it were not for the Beornings, the passage from Dale to Rivendell would
    long ago have become impossible. They are valiant men and keep open the High Pass and the Ford
    of Carrock. But their tolls are high,' he added with a shake of his head; `and like Beorn of old they
    are not over fond of dwarves. Still, they are trusty, and that is much in these days."

    The Two Towers Chapter 2 The Riders of Rohan

    "They have long been the friends of the people of Gondor, though they are not akin to them. It was in forgotten years long ago that Eorl the Young brought them out of the North, and their kinship is rather with the Bardings of Dale, and with the Beornings of the Wood, among whom may still be seen many men tall and fair, as are the Riders of Rohan. At least they will not love the Orcs.'"
    “Denn die Todten reiten Schnell. (For the dead travel fast)” Bram Stoker, Dracula

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    You mean in the way it would be inappropriate to the lore to have loads of hobbits running around all over Middle-earth getting directly involved in the Fellowship's business?
    You know better than that. They couldn't have had a mass-market game without playable hobbits (and Elves, and Dwarves!), whereas they clearly can have one without Beorn-style furries.

    When did Turbine's license change to not include The Hobbit? With the recent license renewal?
    Nope, some time back.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    Of course they're shape shifters, says it right there in the prison scenes.
    I'm afraid not, that's just in your imagination.

  13. #63
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    Heh, Radhruin, you can not simply wish facts away. Heck, even Sauron shifts into wolf shape in that scene, to fight Huan, and the Lay of Leithian that describes Felagund and Sauron's battle before Felagund and Beren are thrown into the prison explicitly sings "Of changing and of shifting shape" (even if that specific reference is to Felagund and Beren rather than the werewolves). Heck, werewolf MEANS a human-wolf shape shifter. Tolkien, as professor of letters at Oxford, might probably have been aware.

    I know it's hard to say, "oops, I was wrong." But you're wrong here.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draculetta View Post
    Um, sorry to the Lore police here
    The Beornings are mentioned in passing in LOTR, but skin-changing is never mentioned at all.

  15. #65
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    Now you are grasping at straws. Many who read LOTR also read The Hobbit (and vice-versa). Including a couple of references back to the Beornings is explicitly nodding the head to those readers of both books. Of course he meant the readers to understand the totality of what the Beornings were.

    Best to just say, "okay, I was wrong."

  16. #66
    I was wondering: how does the skill tree factor in as an inspiration to this class? I think this is a really important clue.

    I was thinking of was a sort of amalgamation of the classic trinity types. As in, a class that is basically 3 solid classes in one, transforming completely with each spec switch. Something like the warden, but with even greater distinctions between the specs.

    In spec one, hes a classic melee tank, like the Guardian.

    In spec two, hes a ranged killer like the Hunter.

    In spec three, hes a pure healer with some "magic" type dps like the Minstrel. Or, hes a blend of melee and ranged for that 3rd spec.

    We already see this happening with the changes that came along with the skill trees, such as with champs and cappys coming into their own as tanks. I could see Turbine going all the way and making a class that can really fullfill some classic roles and class emulations, all in one tidy package. I certainly wouldnt mind a class that could switch between a powerful melee and a powerful ranged (yes I know, Warden) with perhaps a 3rd spec as a blend of the two.

    Whatcha think?

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    Heh, Radhruin, you can not simply wish facts away. Heck, even Sauron shifts into wolf shape in that scene, to fight Huan, and the Lay of Leithian that describes Felagund and Sauron's battle before Felagund and Beren are thrown into the prison explicitly sings "Of changing and of shifting shape" (even if that specific reference is to Felagund and Beren rather than the werewolves). Heck, werewolf MEANS a human-wolf shape shifter. Tolkien, as professor of letters at Oxford, might probably have been aware.

    I know it's hard to say, "oops, I was wrong." But you're wrong here.
    Nope. Sauron takes wolf-shape to fight Huan, but he can do that because he's a Maia. And no, 'werewolf' doesn't have to mean a shape-shifter, that's just convention. You're just assuming it does and then trying to pretend it's a fact when Tolkien actually uses 'werewolf' and 'wolf' entirely interchangeably in the text. Read the description of Carcharoth's origin, there is absolutely no mention of anything but wolf in that and Carcharoth had been sired by Draugluin, 'lord and sire of the werewolves of Angband'.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pluck View Post
    I was wondering: how does the skill tree factor in as an inspiration to this class? I think this is a really important clue.

    I was thinking of was a sort of amalgamation of the classic trinity types. As in, a class that is basically 3 solid classes in one, transforming completely with each spec switch. Something like the warden, but with even greater distinctions between the specs.

    In spec one, hes a classic melee tank, like the Guardian.

    In spec two, hes a ranged killer like the Hunter.

    In spec three, hes a pure healer with some "magic" type dps like the Minstrel. Or, hes a blend of melee and ranged for that 3rd spec.

    We already see this happening with the changes that came along with the skill trees, such as with champs and cappys coming into their own as tanks. I could see Turbine going all the way and making a class that can really fullfill some classic roles and class emulations, all in one tidy package. I certainly wouldnt mind a class that could switch between a powerful melee and a powerful ranged (yes I know, Warden) with perhaps a 3rd spec as a blend of the two.

    Whatcha think?
    I think this would be disastrous. All the characters we have now would be completely obsolete. There would be nothing left but the FOTM class that's new, and more folks would quit.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    Now you are grasping at straws. Many who read LOTR also read The Hobbit (and vice-versa). Including a couple of references back to the Beornings is explicitly nodding the head to those readers of both books. Of course he meant the readers to understand the totality of what the Beornings were.

    Best to just say, "okay, I was wrong."
    Why should I, when there was nothing wrong in what I said? I know exactly where LOTR mentions Beornings, but that was not the point. Whatever assumptions you may choose to make about those references, he does not mention skin-changing in LOTR and so was evidently not at all bothered if people who hadn't read The Hobbit didn't ever know about it. So much for your 'of course'. And while Tolkien could naturally make whatever references to his own works that he felt the need to, Turbine can't for works they haven't licensed.

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    When did Turbine's license change to not include The Hobbit? With the recent license renewal? I had not heard that.
    AFAIK, they never had a license for The Hobbit. The license covers LotR and its appendices -- the latter being one reason why a lot of stuff from The Hobbit and Silmarillion made its way into LOTRO anyway.
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    AFAIK, they never had a license for The Hobbit. The license covers LotR and its appendices -- the latter being one reason why a lot of stuff from The Hobbit and Silmarillion made its way into LOTRO anyway.
    Thanks, I didn't know that. I thought they did. Makes me wonder about places like Goblin-town

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    'werewolf' doesn't have to mean a shape-shifter, that's just convention.
    Perhaps you aren't aware that werewolf comes from old English, and literally means man-wolf. Tolkien was certainly aware of it. We can forgive him for being so smart on the topic; it was kind of his job. I don't think he picked the term haphazardly.

    The werewolves were shape-shifters, just like Beornings. Some people seem to like to minimize the fantastical elements of Tolkien's writings, the ghosts and vampires and magic. These people prefer their lore "life-like" so it fits their ideas, rather than Tolkien's. But Tolkien didn't minimize the fantastical, he seems to have enjoyed it immensely. And he certainly included it.

    I don't want Beornings (or any other shape shifters) to be the new class; I don't think shape-shifting IS a class, it's more a race or even species. But to say it's not lore-appropriate. That's wrong.

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    And yet the minstrel is still ignored and broken. How special. Sorry, not generating any enthusiasm.
    What's wrong with the mini? My mini has been 95 for a while and is not only a beast in WS mode but also has no issues healing.

  24. #74
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    http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Beorning
    http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Beornings
    http://merp.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Beornings
    Skin-changers. All over you who said otherwise were wrong.
    Now go away trolls.
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  25. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    I think this would be disastrous. All the characters we have now would be completely obsolete. There would be nothing left but the FOTM class that's new, and more folks would quit.
    Why in the world do you think that? Who are these people that would quit over this who havent already quit over all the other nonsense? Nobody quit when the warden came out, and they could tank, dps, heal, and range dps quite decently (tho there was always bias against them when they did anything but tank). In any case, with the current trends of the game towards solo-small group activities, I think something of this nature, ie a class that can tank, melee and range well would be perfectly normal and fit right into Turbines vision.

    So Beanie, if the hint about the skill tree is NOT in reference to a class that can use the specs to completely switch roles, what do YOU think was meant? How else would the skill trees be used? And what other kind of class/roles can you think of that arent already represented?

    And btw.. the reason Im not talking about possible LOTR references, is because is DOESNT MATTER. Turbine has shown they can pick some completely obscure, random character in the lore and build an entire class around them (RKs, anyone?). So its pointless to try and figure out what little snippet of the books they are using. Instead, we should be trying to figure out what they possibly could get away with in the game.

 

 
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