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  1. #326
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    First Turbine decided to take away our skills and gate them behind the Trees... how is that workin' for ya?
    Now Turbine wants to gate our access to our skill points behind BB's which many will never participate in and still more will not participate on their level cap alts.

    Questing and leveling up Turbine... gate the skill points behind these... one of the few things you did right in Helms Deep... don't mess with it.

    If you want to increase participation in unpopular BB's there have been options to trait points given in this thread.
    Don't add to the BB unpopularity by trying to force BB's on us... it - will - not - work!
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    [color=limegreen][b]Wulfgrim Ghastban, Hrothwine and Galdrefyst of Rohan - Peckish of the Shire -- Riddermark[/b][/color]
    “I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend” JRRT

  2. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    By putting them in BBs as the only way to achieve them you're forcing players to do content they may despise (raises hand high) because they have to have the skill points, or they have to gimp their character by not participating.
    Again, you keep confusing with... actually needing something... with thinking you need something. There is *nothing* that is forcing anyone to run the big battles other than your own OCD (not picking on anyone who actually has OCD) making you think you have to get those 2 trait points.

    Please get it through your head that you are not "forced" at all... other than your own thinking... besides, by the time you get to 95 and have all 65 trait points currently available... and your character is seriously going to be gimped by TWO points... then that speaks to a different problem that 2 points won't solve.
    Of the 4 characters I have at 95, all of them have 65 points. All of them have really good builds as is... and while those 2 points will be nice to have... they are not going to make/break a build.

    If there are other ways to get the points (completion of skirm LT deeds, completion of raids, completion other aspects of the game) and the total point level is capped it's a good thing. That would also help people who may have a class deed they can't complete (Song of Aid? Buehler? Buehler?) or a character that isn't able to group as successfully as another class of theirs. Choices are good - strong-arming isn't.
    Um... if I have a class deed that requires a group or something special to complete... I do the part of arranging to get that deed done. There is no class deed (IIRC) that you can't complete. It may not be a deed that is particularly fun to complete, but there is a way to complete every class deed.

    And, if someone has a character that isn't able to group as successfully... I know I'll take some heat for this but... the weight is on that person's shoulders to figure out how to group successfully. If I can successfully learn to group on a Hunter, Loremaster, Burglar, and Captain... take them to 95 and get everything done on them that I want to complete... I do not understand how it is so difficult for others to do the same.
    My burglar is, arguably, my worst character at doing the Big Battles. I have no AoEs to speak of. I have no ranged attacks to speak of. It isn't exactly easy to get BBs done on him. Yet, I've learned how to leverage his skills as best I can and have reached rank 4.

    Again, there is nothing forcing you to do this stuff unless you *want* to do it. Then, I dare say, it is up to you to figure out how to make it happen. I don't particularly care to do the 6 books of Volume 2 needed to get 1 class trait point... but I made it happen because I decided I wanted that reward.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  3. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    Again, you keep confusing with... actually needing something... with thinking you need something. There is *nothing* that is forcing anyone to run the big battles other than your own OCD

    ....

    Again, there is nothing forcing you to do this stuff unless you *want* to do it. Then, I dare say, it is up to you to figure out how to make it happen. I don't particularly care to do the 6 books of Volume 2 needed to get 1 class trait point... but I made it happen because I decided I wanted that reward.
    I don't "need" LOTRO at all but I do "want" fun.

    Many do not find the BB's fun (I'm sure Turbine has numbers for this) but many of those same people do find gaining every trait point "fun" particularly since so many of our skills were already ripped away from us with the implementation of those trait points.

    Simple... in Helms Deep the trait points were gained through questing and leveling up... worked well... if it ain't broke don't fix it.
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    [color=limegreen][b]Wulfgrim Ghastban, Hrothwine and Galdrefyst of Rohan - Peckish of the Shire -- Riddermark[/b][/color]
    “I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend” JRRT

  4. #329
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    Please get it through your head that you are not "forced" at all... other than your own thinking... besides, by the time you get to 95 and have all 65 trait points currently available... and your character is seriously going to be gimped by TWO points... then that speaks to a different problem that 2 points won't solve.
    Nice :-). But really, it isn't TWO points, it's currently 5, and will be more as new updates are released, and you have to do ALL the content or lose out on lots of points. Unless they change.
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  5. #330
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    I have to say, I can barely make myself do the BB's for the Epic Quests, I darn sure can't see myself grinding through them for two additional trait points. BB's would be better if they were shorter, but they are a snooze fest, so I guess none of my alts will be getting the points.
    “You are valuable because you exist. Not because of what you do or what you have done, but simply because you are.” –Max Lucado

  6. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    I don't "need" LOTRO at all but I do "want" fun.

    Many do not find the BB's fun (I'm sure Turbine has numbers for this) but many of those same people do find gaining every trait point "fun" particularly since so many of our skills were already ripped away from us with the implementation of those trait points.

    Simple... in Helms Deep the trait points were gained through questing and leveling up... worked well... if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    I feel the same way. I'm pretty much a completionist on my main (world renowned, kindred with all factions (other than the ale ones), all virtues other than mercy >= 18, etc), and the game direction+grind has made me basically abandon alts. I have 160 BB points, and honestly don't feel like doing more BBs. I'm going to change my attitude and live without that last skill point, but will find it personally irritating. Given my prior tendency to work through grinds to max my character, suggests that at least with regard to me they've gone over the top... Using the points to encourage people to give BBs a fair shake MIGHT be OK, but using it to make people grind out 200 points feels like a vast excess. And I'd guess that without reading guides, which many don't, it will be a very small percentage of players who can figure out how to hit 200, and many others just won't want to spend the time. It feels out of proportion with the other ways of getting the skill points. The store part just makes it seem like a money grab, but the price is so out-of-whack it doesn't seem likely to get much revenue either.

  7. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by FittyBolger View Post
    I don't "need" LOTRO at all but I do "want" fun.

    Many do not find the BB's fun (I'm sure Turbine has numbers for this) but many of those same people do find gaining every trait point "fun" particularly since so many of our skills were already ripped away from us with the implementation of those trait points.

    Simple... in Helms Deep the trait points were gained through questing and leveling up... worked well... if it ain't broke don't fix it.
    Not completely true. You are only looking at the points gained via the 5 regions associated with Helms Deep. You ignore all of the other methods already in place by which a character gains those trait points... questing and leveling up are only 2 of those methods. If you only quested or leveled up, you would be missing a significant chunk of your points without taking the time to complete all of the various skill deeds.

    And, again, we are in a trend of making statements... "many do not find the BBs fun" when you can't back up that claim. Some clearly enjoy them and some clearly do not... we have no data to tell us how many people are in either camp. I doubt even Turbine has the data to know how many people actually like/dislike BBs. They would have the data on how often those instances are run.
    Even still, how about we keep the discussion to whether or not 2 trait points should/shouldn't be made available via the BBs... not injecting other things that distracts us.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  8. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    And, again, we are in a trend of making statements... "many do not find the BBs fun" when you can't back up that claim. Some clearly enjoy them and some clearly do not... we have no data to tell us how many people are in either camp. I doubt even Turbine has the data to know how many people actually like/dislike BBs. They would have the data on how often those instances are run.
    Separate from the question of who likes what, I'm willing to bet that a MUCH smaller percentage of people playing the game will get the second skill point (for 200) than for any other skill point in the game. At least until they introduce more BBs, and there is a broader base to earn points on without needing a good number of platinums and a fair bit of running 6 man or raid BBs. But of course, we can't know that, the stats aren't released. Still is my pretty strong guess. I expect in particular the points for running the BB raid to become harder to get to as runs of it get less frequent, particularly on more sparsely populated servers...

    One way to see that the ulterior money making scheme is failing is how soon the exorbitantly priced BB points go on sale, and how big the discount is...
    Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Mar 26 2014 at 02:36 PM.

  9. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Separate from the question of who likes what, I'm willing to bet that a MUCH smaller percentage of people playing the game will get the second skill point (for 200) than for any other skill point in the game. At least until they introduce more BBs, and there is a broader base to earn points on without needing a good number of platinums and a fair bit of running 6 man or raid BBs. But of course, we can't know that, the stats aren't released. Still is my pretty strong guess. I expect in particular the points for running the BB raid to become harder to get to as runs of it get less frequent, particularly on more sparsely populated servers...

    One way to see that the ulterior money making scheme is failing is how soon the exorbitantly priced BB points go on sale, and how big the discount is...
    Let's be clear. The reason I am not against points being awarded in this way is because I think it is a good idea to open up multiple avenues to acquire additional trait points beyond questing, leveling, and completing class deeds. These 2 points are, technically, available to everyone regardless of your class. And it is different than having to spam skill-X a million times.

    I see this as merely being the first step in opening up various ways to get more points. And, I've grown up on having a lot of really good rewards "gated" behind a variety of content. It is nothing new. And, frankly, I am used to certain rewards only having *one* method of acquiring them. I had to make the decision whether or not to go get that reward.
    I've also seen where multiple avenues to the same reward was offered... but it was made abundantly clear that certain avenues were much more efficient. Most of those "more efficient" ways involved some sort of group content.

    I have also made it abundantly clear I do have issues with the BBs... namely that they all should have been able to allow in 1-12 people. They already did that with skirmishes. I do not understand why a "Big Battle" has a limit of 1-2 people... and sometimes 6 or 12. These battles should have been made to appeal to those people who would love to "raid" with big groups... getting to experience "war" the way it should be. Alas, we don't even have that much...

    Gating 2 points behind these battles is not the problem... or at least wouldn't be a problem if they were done properly.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  10. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    Gating 2 points behind these battles is not the problem... or at least wouldn't be a problem if they were done properly.
    I have to say that I completely agree with this ^^^: The issue is NOT so much that these traits points are being gated (there are lots of gates in the game), but that the mechanism that they are being gated behind (EB) was so poorly done that it makes the thought of trying to acquire these points in this way so aversive.

  11. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanteIL View Post
    I have to say that I completely agree with this ^^^: The issue is NOT so much that these traits points are being gated (there are lots of gates in the game), but that the mechanism that they are being gated behind (EB) was so poorly done that it makes the thought of trying to acquire these points in this way so aversive.
    The issue is permanent character development being gated behind temporary content. Unless they change how we get these points, it'll soon be as annoying as if they had gated 7 trait points behind doing every quest and instance in Moria. I'm not going to buy the next expansion, if I have to also purchase HD to reach maximum effectiveness.
    Work like no one is watching, dance like you don't need the money...

  12. #337
    Let's turn the question around.

    Let's say for the sake of discussion that you don't have an issue with Trait Points being gated behind Group/Temporary/EB Content.


    What or is, there an issue with them not being so gated?

    Is there some problem or issue if they were granted via Deeds/Questing/outside of EB's?
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  13. #338
    Seems to me, there should be flexibility in how trait points can be earned.

    In the old SOA areas, you get a deed for completing quests in the various regions. You need 40 to get the final deed. But there are usually far more quests than 40 in those areas, so you don't need to complete everything and you can pick and choose your favorites. I think that's one reason why we love those areas.

    Many of the virtues are awarded this way. It is possible to earn more than the current cap for several of them, so you do not need to do every deed to max Charity for instance. Yeah, grinding virtues is rough, but you can pick and choose.

    Similarly, it would be nice if the traits were capped by level so you knew how many you ought to have. Trait points could be earned by a number of means, though. So BB's could be avoided if desired. Or doing all the quests in western Rohan could be avoided. But some grinding would have to be done somewhere to max out. And I think that's fair. I want to play the game and have to work toward goals. It's just that I want to choose how to play and what the goals should be.

    And I think there have been enough posts about BB's to know how they were received. If the posters are a minority, they are an extremely vocal and highly motivated minority. If the majority of people like BB's, it's odd that I don't see more people organizing groups & duo for them in GLFF.

    I know I am not interested in running BB's and would be extremely vocal and highly motivated if Turbine tries to put a ring in my nose and pull me through a BB grind fest. I've tried 'em. I've actually advanced a character pretty far into the skill trees for them. They start out frustrating and become boring. At no point are they fun or even worthwhile. This could really end my love affair with the game.

  14. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gedachtnis View Post
    Let's turn the question around.

    Let's say for the sake of discussion that you don't have an issue with Trait Points being gated behind Group/Temporary/EB Content.


    What or is, there an issue with them not being so gated?

    Is there some problem or issue if they were granted via Deeds/Questing/outside of EB's?
    Honestly, I would not have a problem with this. As long as the method of acquiring any reward is clear... and the reward/risk ratio is balanced. Right now in LOTRO the reward/risk ratio is not balanced in the slightest. I could type pages about that but I won't!

    If I had my way...

    > All BBs would take 1-12 people... with the larger maps taking 24

    > There would be a much better way to get rewards from instances besides always RNG. Using RNG is great for like 90% of the game. But there is that 10% where the RNG at least needs to be adjusted to give proper rewards.

    > All Hobbits would be removed from the game... oops I wasn't supposed to let that slip!
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  15. #340
    If they hadn't replaced the game's functional trait system with trait trees, we wouldn't need to have this vexing discussion.

    In addition to annoying a large portion of the player base though their mere existence, the trees are now going to be used to railroad players into playing marginally amusing expansion content.

    It would be nice if the developers eschewed this change just to limit the cantankerousness.
    Last edited by dietlbomb; Mar 26 2014 at 08:46 PM.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  16. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frisco View Post
    The issue is permanent character development being gated behind temporary content. Unless they change how we get these points, it'll soon be as annoying as if they had gated 7 trait points behind doing every quest and instance in Moria. I'm not going to buy the next expansion, if I have to also purchase HD to reach maximum effectiveness.
    This is not temporary content, as it scales and we will have it until the game stops.

    I'm 99% sure that the BBs are the way Turbine will implement the Battle at Pelenor, Morannon, Osgiliath etc.

    Eventually even a soloer will have the battles to get 200 points.

    Btw, I don't like BBs for several reasons, so I expect I will have to take care of my OCD and live without those extra trait points.

    Oh well...
    Arequain Belechael, Legate of Celosien, Minas Brethil, Lebennin

  17. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    Let's be clear.

    Gating 2 points behind these battles is not the problem... or at least wouldn't be a problem if they were done properly.
    Of course it isn't. The problem is that the trait point cap is equal to the total number of available trait points. At the moment, this is a small problem, with people missing out on one or two points if they don't want to grind something (BB, or quests, or deeds). But unless they change it so that the trait point cap is less than the total available trait points, it will quickly get very tedious for people levelling up through HD. Imagine if you had to do every quest in Moria, or Mirkwood too to get the maximum trait points?
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  18. #343
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    i had written a longish reply saying how it was a bad idea yesterday. i caught it when it disappeared once, but apparently it poofed on me again. so Im just gonna keep this one short and request turbine not to gate trait points behind 200 promotion points, or there will be many miserable altholics who want to see their characters at their full potential, but would probably give up at the thought of grinding 200 points per toon. 100 seems more reasonable for both points for me, since its fairly achievable and one isnt FORCED to do the BB raid to get it. Please dont gate trait points behind battle promotion points at such a stringent criteria.

  19. #344
    What is the reason to complain about placing two simple skill points behind the BBs? It is just an additional way to earn two points, and let out some of the quests in Rohan maybe. Nobody is complaining
    that skillpoints are gated behind longish quest-lines, or did i miss that? In my opinion thats just fine to place also some at the BB. If you want to have the full potential of currently 67 points, which is not
    needed of course to have a good working character, then yes you have to put some effort in getting them. This whole discussion remembers me of the unholy discussion that soloplayers want to have
    the best rewards for doing some easy quests...

    you want to have all, then you have to do something. If you are fine without then leave the BBs where there are.

    Please Turbine dont remove this option to get that Skillpoints!

  20. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by cirkonia View Post
    What is the reason to complain about placing two simple skill points behind the BBs? It is just an additional way to earn two points, and let out some of the quests in Rohan maybe. Nobody is complaining
    that skillpoints are gated behind longish quest-lines, or did i miss that? In my opinion thats just fine to place also some at the BB. If you want to have the full potential of currently 67 points, which is not
    needed of course to have a good working character, then yes you have to put some effort in getting them. This whole discussion remembers me of the unholy discussion that soloplayers want to have
    the best rewards for doing some easy quests...

    you want to have all, then you have to do something. If you are fine without then leave the BBs where there are.

    Please Turbine dont remove this option to get that Skillpoints!
    The trait points from HD landscape quests aren't that bad to get, levelling normally from 85-95 following those quests you should get the 4th point a bit before 95. This leave only one more point which really doesn't take long to get. The only way for it to feel like a huge grind getting the landscape point would be for you to powerlevel to 95 in sword-halls or something and miss all the quests on landscape, or if you use as many exp buffs as you can while doing HD landscape.

    There is a huge difference between gating 'the best gear' behind raids etc which are the best for that level cap, and gating core character improvements behind the same thing which stay with you no matter what the level cap is.

    I think the best solution would be the virtue type solution where you can get points form different sources but there is a cap depending on your level.

    If they want to stick with these two points coming from BB only then a reduction from 100/200 to 75/150 would be better, that way it still requires some effort to get both points but isn't too grindy for people and doesn't require platinum on nearly everything.
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  21. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by cirkonia View Post
    Nobody is complaining that skillpoints are gated behind longish quest-lines, or did i miss that?
    Yeah, you kind of did, big time.

    That is the main problem for me, and others. Not that the trait points are gated behind the BBs, but that at the moment all possible trait points than can be earned can be used, so to max out your toon, you need to do all. This will become very very tedioud for players later on when they have to do almost all the HD quests and get platinum in all the BBs to get 7 trait points.
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  22. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakanor View Post
    The trait points from HD landscape quests aren't that bad to get,
    Now, that's true. But how will it be when the level cap is 105, and people are trying to level their toons as quickly as possible to get to Osgiliath? Are they going to be all whoopie-doo that they have to do almost all of the quests in Western Rohan? I know I wouldn't have been if I'd have to do all the quests in Moria on some of my alts...
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  23. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariholwen View Post
    Now, that's true. But how will it be when the level cap is 105, and people are trying to level their toons as quickly as possible to get to Osgiliath? Are they going to be all whoopie-doo that they have to do almost all of the quests in Western Rohan? I know I wouldn't have been if I'd have to do all the quests in Moria on some of my alts...
    Cap them at 65 now, then increase the cap as the levels go up, while adding new ways to get them.
    Then we would have a decent system.
    Would be great if there was 100 available points with say a cap at 80 in the next couple of level increases.
    And yeah to repeat myself, 50/100 for the points instead of 100/200 is a much better split.

  24. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariholwen View Post
    Now, that's true. But how will it be when the level cap is 105, and people are trying to level their toons as quickly as possible to get to Osgiliath? Are they going to be all whoopie-doo that they have to do almost all of the quests in Western Rohan? I know I wouldn't have been if I'd have to do all the quests in Moria on some of my alts...
    Isn't "reaching osgiliath ASAP" a choice? Why shouldn't doing so cost you something -- namely a few trait points that you don't get right away, but only later, once you've been there and seen it? I don't get why you make such a problem out of the fact that your play style choices will affect the outcomes you reach. It's like complaining that pveing in the lvl cap area won't get you r12 in EM. True, but why is that a problem? It's a choice.
    Last edited by rannion; Mar 28 2014 at 11:48 AM.

  25. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by cirkonia View Post
    What is the reason to complain about placing two simple skill points behind the BBs? It is just an additional way to earn two points, and let out some of the quests in Rohan maybe.
    No, that simply is not true. It's not an additional way. Additional implies alternative. As there will be a maximum of 67 points possible to earn and 67 points usable at a time, then in order to use the max amount of points then players are FORCED to do that content. Both the landscape quests in HD as well as the EBs. And yes, there has been massive protest about both.

    This is setting a precedent, and it's not a good one. First they lock 5 points into the long quest-lines. Then they lock 2 points into the EBs. What's next? In order to get those 7 points not only must one want (or be willing) to play that content, but first one must own that content. Those are two HUGE points against this. Here's why:

    1) Playing the content. I doubt there are many players who are happy to do everything. There are many who don't like EBs, many who don't like epics, many who don't like landscape quests, and so forth. By locking points into these pieces of content, they are forced to do them, no matter how much they dislike them. The alternative is to play with fewer points. This also goes to our class deeds, for that matter. Back in the day we didn't have to do all the deeds. We'd just do the ones we wanted. Now, in order to even reach 60 points, we have to do all of those deeds. My fellow minstrels will know what I mean when I say Song of Aid. This would not be a problem if the trait points were operated the SAME EXACT WAY as Virtues. Currently the Virtue cap is 18. How many points per Virtue are currently available? It varies, but more than 18. That gives wiggle room for us to decide which deeds to complete. We could even do all of the deeds, but they'd still be hard-capped at 18. Likewise, suppose we had our 67 trait points, but say it was hard-capped at 60. That gives us wiggle room. Several different methods to obtain them, but not all of them are required to reach the max usable. And as the level cap rises (or more trait points added to the system) that cap can rise. Maybe when the lvl cap is 105, the trait cap will be 70 and the max points available to earn will be 80. See where I'm going here?

    2) Buying the content. With the exception of class deeds (which are free) and simply leveling (also free), the final 7 points are not free. You MUST own the Helm's Deep expansion in order to: a) complete the quest-lines, and b) complete the EBs. This strays dangerously close to pay-to-win. Closer, perhaps, than this game has ever been in the years since F2P launched and the Volume II epics opened up (access to Moria, Lorien and Mirkwood used to be locked to F2Pers, if memory serves). Just as you must pay to reach lvl cap in SWTOR and to use their version of Legendary Items (their Artifact Gear), now we must pay to make the most of our own classes.

    This is not a good thing. The only people that I can imagine being fine with this are those with deep pockets and a willingness to play all of everything. How many of us meet both requirements?
    R5 105 GRD Marevayave - Leader of Riddermarked For Death
    R8 105 MNS Fayah/100 LM Siennah/105 HNT Dinenol/100 RK Dhurik
    100 CHN Alachas/85 CPT Dinfaerien/60 BUR Dhax/62 WDN Godoric
    R9 105 MNS Fayeh (alt Wilya) - Lonely Mountain Band @ Landroval

 

 
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