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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Here is a picture of my warden's skillbars at lvl 85 (31 skills, counting 1 not traited):


    and at 95 (up to 36 total skills):

    Just ignore the items, travel skills, and racials if you want to count for yourself.
    I can count and compare the old and new gambit totals too, that still doesn't work out in favor of the theory that HD brought a reduction in skill bloat.
    Perhaps this is one of the more extreme examples (I don't have SSs of any of my other freep's skill bars before HD to compare them all), but the paring down of skill bloat on classes I play seems to me at best minor, and generally just non-existent.
    I always thought wardens had a low skill count to begin with given the gambit system. They certainly were not one I considered bloated when last I dabbled in PVE (ROI).


    Even my Signature is trolling!

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    I always thought wardens had a low skill count to begin with given the gambit system. They certainly were not one I considered bloated when last I dabbled in PVE (ROI).
    You don't know the super secret handshake? it opened 5 whole Toolbars of superfluous skills no one used /jk

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    I always thought wardens had a low skill count to begin with given the gambit system. They certainly were not one I considered bloated when last I dabbled in PVE (ROI).
    My warden has more clickable skills now than my guardian, or champ (the only freeps I have at or near lvl cap). And in looking at older SSs of those classes, more than they ever had in the past.

    With the implementation of the snap shot mechanic, which introduces an entirely new set of skills with separate clickable icons that have identical effects but seperate cooldowns and a proc system, the warden class has quite directly gained skill bloat, as there are a number of ways to implement this system without introducing new the new skills listed. If I were to spec certain ways I could even get an additional clickable skill compared to what you see.

    As for the pairing down of skills via the 'cumbersome' gambit system: a quick tally in my head says I have 35 total melee gambits when specced blue, and 33 when specced red, when specced assailment (and in assailment stance) I have the same 33 gambits as red, though roughly half of them have some level of differing functionality. compared to RoR and RoI when I had.... 36 gambits, 1 has been removed, and 2 are now spec gated, doesn't exactly compare to the added clickys I now have. Delving deeper, Gambit bloat is probably at an alltime high, where in RoR and before I had 2 'useless' gambits, I can now count 4 and arguably up to 6 that no longer have any use in any possible situation.

    Its an interesting process, the class has gotten simpler, yet gained more skills, made existing skills less useful to useless; all in the big revamp/update that was intended to reduce bloat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Actually, it was SKILL Bloat.
    thanks for the correction.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    I think the problem here is you are trying to make facts fit your narrative instead of giving an accurate accounting of them. The reality is the team felt that skill bloat (an excess of skills) was a problem and addressed it. At no time was the suggestion "too much power bloat in skill X". In fact they stated, repeatedly, the opposite. That there were many skills that were underpowered and uninspiring and ultimately it would be better to have fewer, more meaningful skills.
    I hope the developer team is open to the idea that the cure may have been worse than the disease, that they consider reverting the changes, and that they attempt to solve the skill bloat problem with more modest means.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietlbomb View Post
    I hope the developer team is open to the idea that the cure may have been worse than the disease, that they consider reverting the changes, and that they attempt to solve the skill bloat problem with more modest means.
    As I stated above... I think that there are 2 separate problems... one of which the developers have attempted to solve... but the other problem still remains and is, in fact, skewing the results of the solution that was applied.

    Namely, there was skill bloat (that was the stated problem or one of them... whether or not you agree is a separate issue) and excessive stat gains.

    The developers introduced the new trait system as a way to combat skill bloat... and allow themselves more room to develop new/fresh skills, etc. So, whether or not you agree with the new system... let's for the sake of discussion assume that the new system did fix skill bloat.

    We still have the issue of "stat bloat" hanging over us. Look at the massive stat jumps that start to happen around 75+. You start seeing gear with over +100 to some stats... and the level 95 gear puts your character at having between 3000-4000 on your 2 main stats (ex. Will/Vitality).
    Therefore, I would argue that the "stat bloat" is making it much more difficult to assess whether or not the new trait system is doing what that solution was intended to fix.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Most of these questions should be answered at the end of the week. We're currently scheduled to put Update 13 on Bullroarer at that time.
    I don't know how often people say thanks for the job you, and the other developers / Turbine does...

    The good and the bad, I am truly grateful for all the hard work you put in!

    Cintona
    .

    Freeps- Deok lvl 95 Hunter
    Creeps - Cintona Rank 11 Darkblits Rank 7

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    What else is rare is people giving detailed and useful feedback regarding specific changes as opposed to linking youtubes and sensational events like "so-and-so solo'd this outdated instance naked with a frying pan. Turbine what are you going to do about this!?!?!!11"

    I understand many people did this before HD launched, but now that players have had time with the content and know some proposed changes, maybe someone can approach it from a constructive angle instead of giving a list of demands that they require fixed otherwise they are leaving the game. That doesn't help anyone.
    Much of this constructive feedback you ask for has already been given... multiple times. Perhaps you missed it? Said constructive feedback is all over these forums as well as can be found during the beta testing of recent expansions.

    There are those of us who are quite capable of having a good discussion. We are happy to do so.

    However, some of us are a little bit... bothered... by the silence on Turbine's part regarding some central, key, core (whatever word you want to use) issues. I (can't speak for everyone) am fully aware that very little of it can probably be fixed over night. What I hope to see is at least some acknowledgement that Turbine is aware "Problem X" is a problem and that they are giving "Problem X" the appropriate amount of attention.

    The plan laid out for this year is full of great stuff. But, there are still some key things... like balancing... that doesn't seem to be getting the attention it deserves... but, I (can't speak for everyone) am not privy to what is going on behind the scenes to know what Turbine is working on.

    So, given that I don't know what is going on behind the scenes... I can only go on what I have been told. The new executive producer seems like a legit guy. I have hope. But, ultimately now... the ball is in Turbine's court. It is up to them to deliver. Update 13 will be the first test.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    As I stated above... I think that there are 2 separate problems... one of which the developers have attempted to solve... but the other problem still remains and is, in fact, skewing the results of the solution that was applied.

    Namely, there was skill bloat (that was the stated problem or one of them... whether or not you agree is a separate issue) and excessive stat gains.

    The developers introduced the new trait system as a way to combat skill bloat... and allow themselves more room to develop new/fresh skills, etc. So, whether or not you agree with the new system... let's for the sake of discussion assume that the new system did fix skill bloat.

    We still have the issue of "stat bloat" hanging over us. Look at the massive stat jumps that start to happen around 75+. You start seeing gear with over +100 to some stats... and the level 95 gear puts your character at having between 3000-4000 on your 2 main stats (ex. Will/Vitality).
    Therefore, I would argue that the "stat bloat" is making it much more difficult to assess whether or not the new trait system is doing what that solution was intended to fix.
    yup ok fix skill bloat check

    balance skills check

    introduce more crazy stat gear bloat ok bad check no dinner for you

    Problem; fixing stat gear inflation; what does that do to the balance of skills assuming they are balanced currently as you stipulate?(not saying yes or no I have no idea your correct the inflation masks it)
    addressing the inflation is gonna take time, add some more time now because logically if skills are balanced vis a vis current stats.... nuher revamp, maybe a minivamp hopefully

    Stats are the fundament upon with all rest: tweak a stat, change a whole ton of everything else / Tweak a skill, change a skill{and only a skill with luck}
    It's one reason I argued when first announced about addressing skills before stats (this was before I even imagined we would be adding more inflation to the equation)
    It's the reason I argued during( when added inflation became almost painfully apparent)
    I'ts pointless to argue about it now but it's something I hope they are aware of the potential for so a workable plan is in place PRIOR to beginning the task

    We're also not sure what they conceive of balanced game play so it's rather "interesting" to give usefull criticism/feedback, cropped up in betaing the skills portion. Nor does it appear likely balance concept (or if there is even a target baseline yet) on their end is gonna be vetted even in part to community prior to 1st build witch is a whole jar of fun after the fact. Not knowing the specific goal makes it a touch challenging to assist on the path. They say slightly op we look back with 1000 yard stares, witch is an issue that. The only feedback we can currently give is current state, we have no reference in regards to goal. Balance sure; but balanced to whom, against what, by witch criteria. different demographics remember? not gonna be able to nail it for all whats the triage? Certainly not before a live build anyway.
    Last edited by Bendin; Mar 11 2014 at 10:07 PM.

  9. #109

    Smile

    guys i know this isnt the thread to put it but i was thinking in a major suggestions for change i kinda wanted opinions from you.. keep in mind they are all debeatable.
    This post i made also for the thread ``an already suggested list``.

    just for the sake of suggestions if i had the oportunity to make changes they would be (btw im a primarely creep lore fan, but i would love to balance and explore the game really well!):

    1. PvP Overall Changes - New map for pvp players, Eliminate the auto system from moors, Reduce dramatically the laggs on pvp maps, Allow freep cosmetics in moors, Change creep skins that looks the same and add new ones atleast 5 per class (that would somehow or not resemble those awesome ones from the movie), Make new creep class: Angmarim ``Sorcerer`` ( perhaps??/open for suggestions) anyway a suggestion i not so long ago saw in a thread by a competent player! , Make freeps have tracks for creeps or wargs atleast, more balance to moors in general that could be discussed, Raise the rank cap!, let freeps have war steeds on PvP and create a mount for creeps too!, and the last one for PvP(extremely debeatable): make 1 day perhaps in a month or 2 months where creeps are allowed into the freep`s game pve through specific locations like isengard, angmar etc, and freeps have to counter (i.e raid tactics and strategies)


    2. PvE Overall Changes - Add atleast 10 new types of different facial options for each freep class! (which includes hair and other character customizations) => im kinda sick of the same faces that each class have over and over..

    - Make a PvE for Creeps that would be a replicate but separate from the freep PvE (maybe they could start off as lvl 50 and its debeatable ofcourse): Each creep class would start in a different place (according to the lore ofcourse), exemple? Orcs (both defiler and reaver) in a depths of slums of slugs where they were created by perverting and torturing elves lol/Uruks in the depths of isengard/ Wargs like in packs in the mountains/ Weavers in caves etc. , and a common big ``city`` like bree for freeps, it would be the glorious Lugburz for creeps, and also all the other places, Dol Guldur, Isengard, Angmar etc, open for creeps. Creeps could also have content like that hobbit gift for freeps, perhaps a ``spoils of war`` bounty for vips? just an idea.

    -New content for Creeps

    -New areas for Creeps and Freep: Gondor for freeps and Mordor for creeps! (but hey not necesserly those regions since we dont want the game run of content lol )

    -New awesome outfits for Freeps


    3. Game overall changes - A real communication between the devs and the lotro players, open suggestions on the game, lower the cost a tiny bit on some of the expansions, real adressing issues department.

    sorry for bad english.
    Any other suggestions guys?

 

 
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