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  1. #26
    Where did Bilbo find his ring, sword, and mithral shirt? Where did Gandalf find Glamdring? Where did Thorin find Orcrist? They did buy them at your local skirmish camp and they didn't buy them at the Turbine store. I don't like to use the term realism when it comes to video games, but we had more of it back in the days of more group oriented content. I think FA items should be unique.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dantrag28 View Post
    Where did Bilbo find his ring, sword, and mithral shirt? Where did Gandalf find Glamdring? Where did Thorin find Orcrist? They did buy them at your local skirmish camp and they didn't buy them at the Turbine store. I don't like to use the term realism when it comes to video games, but we had more of it back in the days of more group oriented content. I think FA items should be unique.
    Yes, let them drop from every single random corpse, backpack, and chest that can be looted in the landscape without even a fight. That's how they did it in the books after all. Turbine made a great deal of progress in the 'fairness' factor by placing them in the skirmish camps, removing symbols (or not adding them when first agers are added) from the game would be like taking ten steps backwards from that progress.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Rufkin View Post
    Yes, let them drop from every single random corpse, backpack, and chest that can be looted in the landscape without even a fight. That's how they did it in the books after all. Turbine made a great deal of progress in the 'fairness' factor by placing them in the skirmish camps, removing symbols (or not adding them when first agers are added) from the game would be like taking ten steps backwards from that progress.
    I don't know what random corpses you looted that yielded usefull items.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Dantrag28 View Post
    I don't know what random corpses you looted that yielded usefull items.
    Sorry, I forgot about useful keys that unlock useless loot boxes.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Dantrag28 View Post
    Sorry, I forgot about useful keys that unlock useless loot boxes.
    Lootboxes aren't useless. Just saying...

  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by SjsharksBoy View Post
    Lootboxes aren't useless. Just saying...
    They are when they are piled up in your vault and keys drop once every blue moon.

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dantrag28 View Post
    I don't know what random corpses you looted that yielded usefull items.
    Sorry, that was my sarcastic response to, "Let's look to the story for how first age weapons should drop." Which was directly from an empty cave after sunlight killed the outsmarted trolls (no fight!).

    As for lootboxes, this past weekend netted me three stat tomes! I couldn't be more pleased with those, as some call them, useless items.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Dantrag28 View Post
    They are when they are piled up in your vault and keys drop once every blue moon.
    For me it's the opposite. I have 30 keys in my vault, waiting for lootboxes to open.

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by pvdtheking View Post
    Fa symbols should be a reward for completing the hardest content in the game.....not readily available to people who farm sambrog for seals. Fa weapons are only needed to compete raids and in pvmp

    Its a complete joke that turbine make them available to everyone
    I agree with your first statement wholeheartedly: FA should be a reward for completing the hardest content in the game.

    Then I disagree with you: FA weapons are only needed to complete raids and in pvmp.

    The OP said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dantrag28 View Post
    Once the game is balanced and difficulty is no longer laughable and first age items are reintroduced ...
    I am going with the OP and agreeing, we should not see FAs in the game until after it is balanced again. But this 'balancing' can occur on ALL levels of the game. They can make the raids the 'hardest content in the game' for 12-man groups - at the same time, they can make some of the fellowship content the 'hardest content in the game' for 6-man groups - at the same time, they can make some of the small fellowship content the 'hardest content in the game' for 3-man groups - at the same time, they can make some of the solo content the 'hardest content in the game' for solo players.

    Then everyone has the same shot at completing 'hardest content in the game' however they choose to complete it. Then everyone in the game has the ability to earn FA and top end equipment however they choose to go about earning.

    I am not sure why raiders seem to have the elitist attitude they are 'better' than everyone else and are 'entitled' to things other players don't have. Just balance the difficulty and make everyone work just as long - just as hard, and earn the same rewards.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie4all View Post
    I am not sure why raiders seem to have the elitist attitude they are 'better' than everyone else and are 'entitled' to things other players don't have. Just balance the difficulty and make everyone work just as long - just as hard, and earn the same rewards.
    Isn't that pretty much the case in all games? I want my shinnies but you can't have em if you don't do like I do!
    As for the need for them.
    If you can complete the raid to gain the FA, what is there that is harder that you need the FA for.
    With the exception of PvP since there everyone want what ever little extra edge there is.
    For the FAs to be "Needed" you would have to make something even more difficult than what they drop from.
    So in the end they are mostly for show or a little time saver on the next run.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Cartman76 View Post
    As for the need for them.
    If you can complete the raid to gain the FA, what is there that is harder that you need the FA for.
    ...
    For the FAs to be "Needed" you would have to make something even more difficult than what they drop from.
    So in the end they are mostly for show or a little time saver on the next run.
    Very good point.

  12. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,284
    Quote Originally Posted by Rufkin View Post
    As for lootboxes, this past weekend netted me three stat tomes! I couldn't be more pleased with those, as some call them, useless items.
    Stat tomes are still mostly useless. Instead of 2458 <insert stat here>, you have 2468. Whoopee. Back when 500 was the max, +10 was at least noticeable. Nowadays, not so much.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Vilan View Post
    Stat tomes are still mostly useless. Instead of 2458 <insert stat here>, you have 2468. Whoopee. Back when 500 was the max, +10 was at least noticeable. Nowadays, not so much.
    That is true at endgame, which is why they are worth a whole lot more in GOLD because people don't really pay attention to the numbers when shopping on the AH. Who knows, I might be able to buy a FA symbol in a couple weeks (if they are in update 13) because of those proceeds. Which I hope is the case. In all honesty, Lotro's RNG usually has me opening truly worthless lootboxes containing 10 legendary fragments and a tattered cloak. Those ones use up a valuable key.

  14. #39
    I'm not trying to be political, but I feel that adventuring in Middle-Earth should be survival of the fittest not a democracy. If Lothar of the Hillpeople shows off his shiny new FA sword in Bree after slaying a dragon with his friends, I don't think Joe Shmoe of buttefly land should start demanding that big brother puts the same treasure outside under a rock for him.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Cartman76 View Post
    Isn't that pretty much the case in all games? I want my shinnies but you can't have em if you don't do like I do!
    As for the need for them.
    If you can complete the raid to gain the FA, what is there that is harder that you need the FA for.
    With the exception of PvP since there everyone want what ever little extra edge there is.
    For the FAs to be "Needed" you would have to make something even more difficult than what they drop from.
    So in the end they are mostly for show or a little time saver on the next run.
    Its called progression.

    It used to be the case that the gear you get was progressively better starting from landcsape content, to 3-man content, to 6-man content to raids. Which made sense (and still would) because not only do you have to have the activities scheduled/arranged on the player end adding in all the chaos that other people bring (from you to you +2, to you +5, to you +11 others all playing your classes in their required roles, knowing the mechanics, being there to back each other up by reacting to something not going as planned, etc) - but because being stepping-stones of PvE (and the stories, sometimes) the difficulty increases too. 3 mans are generally harder than solo content. 6 mans are generally harder than 3 mans. 12 mans are generally harder than 6 mans - not just because of the people involved but because thats how the content works. These are all just parts of one whole - its called PVE.

    I really hate these "the need for a first ager" posts. (I'm about to ignore lvl 60 LI's in general and the watcher/turtle/DN)

    How much experience do you folks have with completing T2C Ost Dunhoth on-level, or T2C ToO on-level?

    A big thing people overlook is that its the CHALLENGE mode that is designed to (not necessarily always or for every single player in the group) "require" (or at least make the biggest most important difference/impact on your chances of success) said first age weapons.

    We had to get first ages to our DPS classes in my kins static raid group to be able to complete certain OD and ToO challenges (dat server first! I miss the healthy competition(s) between kins, between servers, between players around the world. :/) There was a chance for each T2 chest to drop a 1st age symbol, and challenge chests guaranteed a symbol each.

    You played solo and got solo gear.
    You played a particular role in 3-mans and got 3-man gear.
    You played a paritcular role in 6-mans and got 6-man gear.
    You played a particular role in raids and got raid-gear.

    Where applicable, you chose higher difficulty settings (which had even bigger currency/loot advantages or at least potential for such advantages) as you/your group learned mechanics and class synergies and overcame challenges, and you obtained better gear at each point along the way giving you/your group the extra healing, DPS or legacy-points-spent to enable successful completion of the next step up.

    There were always shiny carrots to chase after like Baingrist, Cloak of Hwin, Draig scales, Clasps, Ithilwegil and Celegmegol, whatever that huge mini shield was called, etc.

    Might I ask.... How many times did all of your guys' kins complete Bukot challenge in ToO Shadow on-level, and how many of your raiders had First Ages?
    Last edited by Ithrien; Mar 12 2014 at 05:09 PM.
    [COLOR="#40E0D0"]Turbine does not give out rewards based on the profit factor; because rewards must be earned by completing content.[/COLOR]

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Ithrien View Post
    Its called progression.

    It used to be the case that the gear you get was progressively better starting from landcsape content, to 3-man content, to 6-man content to raids. Which made sense (and still would) because not only do you have to have the activities scheduled/arranged on the player end adding in all the chaos that other people bring (from you to you +2, to you +5, to you +11 others all playing your classes in their required roles, knowing the mechanics, being there to back each other up by reacting to something not going as planned, etc) - but because being stepping-stones of PvE (and the stories, sometimes) the difficulty increases too. 3 mans are generally harder than solo content. 6 mans are generally harder than 3 mans. 12 mans are generally harder than 6 mans - not just because of the people involved but because thats how the content works. These are all just parts of one whole - its called PVE.

    I really hate these "the need for a first ager" posts. (I'm about to ignore lvl 60 LI's in general and the watcher/turtle/DN)

    How much experience do you folks have with completing T2C Ost Dunhoth on-level, or T2C ToO on-level?

    A big thing people overlook is that its the CHALLENGE mode that is designed to (not necessarily always or for every single player in the group) "require" (or at least make the biggest most important difference/impact on your chances of success) said first age weapons.

    We had to get first ages to our DPS classes in my kins static raid group to be able to complete certain OD and ToO challenges (dat server first! I miss the healthy competition(s) between kins, between servers, between players around the world. :/) There was a chance for each T2 chest to drop a 1st age symbol, and challenge chests guaranteed a symbol each.

    You played solo and got solo gear.
    You played a particular role in 3-mans and got 3-man gear.
    You played a paritcular role in 6-mans and got 6-man gear.
    You played a particular role in raids and got raid-gear.

    Where applicable, you chose higher difficulty settings (which had even bigger currency/loot advantages or at least potential for such advantages) as you/your group learned mechanics and class synergies and overcame challenges, and you obtained better gear at each point along the way giving you/your group the extra healing, DPS or legacy-points-spent to enable successful completion of the next step up.

    There were always shiny carrots to chase after like Baingrist, Cloak of Hwin, Draig scales, Clasps, Ithilwegil and Celegmegol, whatever that huge mini shield was called, etc.

    Might I ask.... How many times did all of your guys' kins complete Bukot challenge in ToO Shadow on-level, and how many of your raiders had First Ages?
    I have read your post. I hear what you are saying. It would be an interesting way for a game to work. Unfortunately, I have not seen THIS game to work that way. I have never heard someone say, "Okay, I completed my soloing gear. Now I need to start working on my 3-man gear. I can't wait to get all that in order to start on my 6-man gear!" It just doesn't work that way. People get their level, then head into the content they prefer. They get level, then the next day they are in the on-level raid (maybe even a T2C raid).

    You asked about experience - Yes, I completed OD T2C on level. Yes, I completed all of ToO T2C on level (in fact I lead the raid team on this). Yes, I completed all of the T2C raids in the level 85 expansion. (Flight was *very* tough - we did not get it until they lowered the kill # from 100 to 80.)

    So, we have looked at your idea of how the game *could* work: A progression from solo to 3-man to 6-man to raid. Yes, that way would work. I would disagree that this game ever had that progression. Most people I know go from solo to raid to 6-man to 3-man. When an expansion comes out, everyone wants to do the new raid. After they have done it a zillion times and have all the loot from it, (and less people are logging in) they drop back to 6-man content and pile up some skirmish marks and gold. After they get bored there, and it is harder to get a group (less people logging in), they grab a couple of friends and do 3-man content until the next expansion.

    Here is another way the game *could* work (I saw this in another MMO): There are three level of end game content. T1, T2, and T3. There is a T1 solo - a T1 group - and a T1 raid. The T1 instances give you T1 loot. One your have your T1 loot, you can start looking into the T2 content. T2 would be much tougher and *require* that T1 loot. Then after T2, you could move on to T3 content. Then players could choose to solo, group, or raid - whatever is most fun to them. They could even mix it up and do a little of each.

    I had all those shiny things from the end raids, but I never thought I was 'due' those things because *I* was a raider. I just don't understand raiders that think they should have something *better* than other people because they choose to play the game in a different way. I think the reward should be based on the difficulty NOT the number of people you are working with. There could be difficult solo, small fellowship, and fellowship content in addition to raid content.

  17. #42
    How about this 3man=15% FA drop 6man=25% 12man=100%? But my original topic was no more Elder king symbols just the actual FA item dropping at the loot roll. IMO I think we should keep Devs. out as much as possible when it come to the distribution of treasure, let the lotro community determine the value of it. Bartering for Elder king symbols devalues our gold.
    Last edited by Dantrag28; Mar 12 2014 at 11:43 PM.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Dantrag28 View Post
    How about this 3man=15% FA drop 6man=25% 12man=100%? But my original topic was no more Elder king symbols just the actual FA item dropping at the loot roll. IMO I think we should keep Devs. out as much as possible when it come to the distribution of treasure, let the lotro community determine the value of it. Bartering for Elder king symbols devalues our gold.
    That sounds like a decent mix.
    And even if you are guaranteed a drop at 12man. It's not sure it's the one you want.
    Gives 3 man teams a shot at the stuff but would take more runs. And that's fair game.
    Would also ofc need a difficulty adjustment in general, but I am pretty sure most of us agree on that being needed.
    Tbh the fact that we can even craft our own legendary weapons never sat well with me.
    But then again this weapon system should have a different name to it all the way since Moria. (whole other long discussion)

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Pie4all View Post
    I have read your post. I hear what you are saying. It would be an interesting way for a game to work. Unfortunately, I have not seen THIS game to work that way. I have never heard someone say, "Okay, I completed my soloing gear. Now I need to start working on my 3-man gear. I can't wait to get all that in order to start on my 6-man gear!" It just doesn't work that way. People get their level, then head into the content they prefer. They get level, then the next day they are in the on-level raid (maybe even a T2C raid).

    You asked about experience - Yes, I completed OD T2C on level. Yes, I completed all of ToO T2C on level (in fact I lead the raid team on this). Yes, I completed all of the T2C raids in the level 85 expansion. (Flight was *very* tough - we did not get it until they lowered the kill # from 100 to 80.)

    So, we have looked at your idea of how the game *could* work: A progression from solo to 3-man to 6-man to raid. Yes, that way would work. I would disagree that this game ever had that progression. Most people I know go from solo to raid to 6-man to 3-man. When an expansion comes out, everyone wants to do the new raid. After they have done it a zillion times and have all the loot from it, (and less people are logging in) they drop back to 6-man content and pile up some skirmish marks and gold. After they get bored there, and it is harder to get a group (less people logging in), they grab a couple of friends and do 3-man content until the next expansion.

    Here is another way the game *could* work (I saw this in another MMO): There are three level of end game content. T1, T2, and T3. There is a T1 solo - a T1 group - and a T1 raid. The T1 instances give you T1 loot. One your have your T1 loot, you can start looking into the T2 content. T2 would be much tougher and *require* that T1 loot. Then after T2, you could move on to T3 content. Then players could choose to solo, group, or raid - whatever is most fun to them. They could even mix it up and do a little of each.

    I had all those shiny things from the end raids, but I never thought I was 'due' those things because *I* was a raider. I just don't understand raiders that think they should have something *better* than other people because they choose to play the game in a different way. I think the reward should be based on the difficulty NOT the number of people you are working with. There could be difficult solo, small fellowship, and fellowship content in addition to raid content.
    But that isn't exactly how I said it works. The gear you get from solo content, has always been less good than gear you get from a 3-man unless its a top-tier crafted piece. Same for 6-mans, way better than any solo quest reward and typically better than 3-man gear pieces... and then raid gear had those extra few points of stat or an extra stat slice. That is how this game worked with gear, nothing about requirements, thats just how the loot progressed.

    I said I was going to ignore lvl 60 LIs and moria, but if we were to include that particular era the game DID require you to have that previous "tier" of gear to be able to compete/complete the next tier of content (having been a raid that required more Radiance), you needed your medallion-bartered Radiance pieces from Moria instances in order to do Watcher runs (where you'd get your last 2 Moria set pieces) and you needed Watcher gear for DN... but this isn't the point I'm trying to make.

    I never alluded to a system like "Now I get to fully gear up with 3-man gear!" "Now I fully gear up with 6-man gear!" as if every step were an absolute requirement (especially since I pointedly ignored Radiance) to progress, I said there was gear progression, and there was, and nothing you said negates or disproves that.

    Gear changed a lot with RoI, but never until RoR and moreso now with HD has gear every been so identical (3-mans dropping the same things as raids, every piece of gear has nearly the same stat allocations and slices), and there have always like I said, been those shiny carrots at the end of the raids. No, you weren't "due" them "because you were a raider", you earned them because you completed the raids, the RNG chose to drop a shiny and you rolled high enough.


    " I think the reward should be based on the difficulty NOT the number of people you are working with. There could be difficult solo, small fellowship, and fellowship content in addition to raid content.

    But thats just the thing, it IS based on the diffuclty (or at least intended to) for the obvious reasons: adding more players (that are required, each filling roles and each needing to perform within certain expectations for any chance to succeed), and because the raids are designed to be the most difficult.

    I disagree with your "Nobody should get anything better because they choose to play the game in a different way". That's not the truth, they're not playing LOTRO in a different way, they're participating in parts of LOTRO that others don't. Everyone is intended to run the raids in this game to finish their stories and complete their deeds, everyone is intended to earn the rewards from raids - just not by not participating.

    I'm not here advocating for a way the game "should" work, I'm not really interested in that discussion. I wanted to post in this thread to battle the ignorance of "Don't need first ages" because in some cases finally getting lucky on T2 chests and getting those couple 1st age LIs equipped to DPSers are absolutely the reason that groups were able to down challenge modes. To say they were "required" might not be entirely true, but certainly more true than "not required at all" like so many people claim all the time, as if their particular raid group's make-up is the only one that anybody uses.
    [COLOR="#40E0D0"]Turbine does not give out rewards based on the profit factor; because rewards must be earned by completing content.[/COLOR]

  20. #45
    I think the FA drops should be completely random. Ex. a hunter, guard, and RK comple a challenge and a FA cappy halberd drops, it should be rolled on by all. Most people I party with are pretty respectfull about passing on items that other players in the group can use. There is always master looter option as well.

  21. #46
    Join Date
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    211
    Quote Originally Posted by Dantrag28 View Post
    The problem with Lotro now is there 2 kinds of people who play, "casual players" and "hardcore raiders" with no in between. I was content with doing 3-6 man runs because that eliminated AFKs by half. Since the release of HD I find myself joining raids more now. I liked it better when you had to accomplish something for a good reward...then they came out with skirmish camps.
    There are hardcore raiders left in this game?

 

 
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