State of the Ettenmoors (a Creep's perspective) *Creeps Only Please*

[DaxMaxtor]

You realize at rank 0 creeps probably only have 8 skills to the freeps 20- 30
Their damage is lower
Their highest crit will probably be 1k
Their armour is lower
Creeps will take consistent 5-20k crits

Your setting isn't fair... there is a huge difference between r0 ...

Just my point.. if you mirror classes, almost the same difference remains at any rank.. A fully geared rank 15 Guardian will own a rank 15 Reaver or Burg vs Warg if both players are equally skilled at playing their class.

The same discrepancy transfer to groups and raids. You can stack a group to a certain point and have success against a Freep's raid at times but it will get to the point it is a no win situation because of all the options freeps have if they choose to stack a group or raid using those advantages.

Guys, if you don't believe me just do a little experiment.. Take out movement skill. Line the opposing classes that I listed up and don't strafe or kite, just start hitting your skill rotations at the same time and see who dies first? As a matter of fact you can do this with the Freep being 2 to 3 ranks lower than the Creep and I'll even give the Creep all the OP buffs..

Come back and tell me how your experiments turned out?

[Bond007]

Just my point.. if you mirror classes, almost the same difference remains at any rank.. A fully geared rank 15 Guardian will own a rank 15 Reaver or Burg vs Warg if both players are equally skilled at playing their class.

This is where you go wrong. You can't mirror classes and expect that to be balanced. The classes were never designed to be mirrors of each other.

Even if you do take out ALL aspects that Coldfell talked about, and just strip down to the raw class v class, original "rock-paper-scissors" thing, you'll find that certain creeps have an edge over certain freeps and certain freeps have an edge over certain freeps.

A r15 Reaver will own a fully geared r15 Champ/LM/Mini/Hunter (but lose to Wardens/Guards/Burgs/Captains)

A r15 Spider will own a fully geared r15 Burg/RK/Warden/Hunter/Captain (but lose to Champ/LM/Guard)

A r15 Warg will own a fully geared r15 Guard/RK/Mini/Champ/Captain (but lose to Warden/Burg/LM)

A r15 BA will own a fully geared r15 Captain/Champ/Hunter (but lose to Warden/Burg/LM)

Again, this is strictly "1v1 no holds barred," which I will again emphasize is NOT a good scenario to evaluate the game by. The game is an MMORPG, and as such, will have multiple players contributing in a fight, whether or not they are grouped (I am using my definition of "group" here, where people are in the same party, with fellowship chat/voice chat/etc.).

Guys, if you don't believe me just do a little experiment.. Take out movement skill. Line the opposing classes that I listed up and don't strafe or kite, just start hitting your skill rotations at the same time and see who dies first? As a matter of fact you can do this with the Freep being 2 to 3 ranks lower than the Creep and I'll even give the Creep all the OP buffs..

Take out movement skill and you have instantaneously taken out a key part of the game for certain classes.

Take a hunter v reaver. Take a champ v warg. Just start hitting your skill rotations at the same time, and see who dies first. See? I can cherry pick 1v1 scenarios too, but that doesn't mean hunters or champs are underpowered. They're just weak 1v1 at the moment. Hmmm... kinda like defilers/WLs are weak 1v1 at the moment?

[Bond007]

Swift, reading some of the old remarks on this thread, I really don't know where all this anger is coming from. It seems you've had all this stuff building up for a while and it's finally surfacing. If you want to unleash on Poppies and I, I'm all for it. If it makes you feel better.

I say things I see and experience while playing with, or against, others. If it doesn't paint a good picture, I'm sorry. Reading or not reading your books on ettenmoors etiquette doesn't mean that I'm lying. Actions do speak louder than words. It's just my PoV. If you've changed, that's great! I'm glad you have such a passion for this game, and that you want good things to happen. It's great to love something.

Dude. Seriously. I'm not angry at you or Poppies or Aroshi or Atboth or hell, anyone. I'm frustrated with you guys. "But why are you frustrated?" you ask. Can you step into my shoes for a second?

1) Gladden PvP starts declining, and I don't understand why. I talk with others (others who I have mentioned. Clock, Sippy, Merked, Drincho, etc. All good players. All reasonable people.) about it, and we come up with reasons for it.

2) I initially think the game itself is to blame. It must all be Turbine's fault, right? So I play with a couple others on Brandy, and, damn, is it different there. I can literally solo 24/7 if I want to, and still find action, and the game is enjoyable for me. I miss people from Gladden, but the game itself is enjoyable. So I transfer my reaver there. But I want Gladden's PvP to be just as alive and well as Brandy's! There's no reason it can't be! We have the numbers (we really do), we have the skill potential, we have the same game at our fingertips.

3) I make a thread explaining what I have seen, and what I think are the reasons why Gladden's PvP is declining, and other servers are not. It's partially Turbine's fault, but it's partially Gladden's players' fault as well.

4) You and others I have named before ignore my explanations, and make comments about how I never solo, thus my opinion means nothing when it comes to challenging yourself in the game, like I see many of Brandy's players doing, but not Gladden's players. Never mind the fact that more solo'ing was only a portion of my argument. Never mind the fact that I have never argued that everyone should solo 24/7, like you seem to think I have been doing.

5) I provide hard proof that I do, in fact, solo plenty on Gladden, and those who say they have not seen it... have, in fact, seen it... and also hard proof that at least one of the creep classes that has consistently been dubbed "underpowered" is, in fact, not really underpowered at all.

6) You sweep in. The White Knight, patting poor lil baby me on the shoulder: "y u anger bro?" Because what you say is drastically inconsistent with reality. You and others want to throw off my reasons for this server's bad PvP by going on tangents and saying I don't solo, but I know you have seen me out there solo! I don't want to waste my time looking through screenshots to find one of you where I am solo and you are right there in front of me... you're entitled to your opinion, but just because you don't 100% of the time see me solo, or whatever, doesn't mean I have no right to talk about the actual reasons for this server's poor PvP.

The way I see it, you and a few others don't like facing the fact that, yes, this server is pretty much #### at the moment, and instead of all players taking responsibility for it, we'd rather shove it off onto others' shoulders for not grouping enough, or something like that. The majority of this server isn't aggressive. They're passive. Few challenge themselves, few take risks.

Many of those who have noticed this have left the server or quit the game, but those who still play and agree with me, well, their words are tossed aside when they speak about it in game, and they find it useless to pursue it on the forums because they see what happens when I attempt to do so. Instead of responding to the actual topic, my playstyle is critiqued , red herrings are chucked here there and everywhere, and my reasoning is danced right past.

Advice: If you're tired of fighting Vic's raids, or don't like how one side plays, join them more often and see what it's like. When things get frustrating I think it's good to change the view and gather perspective. I don't get as upset when I find out what the other side goes through, and how unfair things can be for both sides. It's really just people trying to have fun, in whatever situation is presented to them.

Annnywwaaaaays... I've been playing mostly just to hang out with old lotro friends and help them if the fighting is "uphill". (Really don't even do that anymore) My priorities have changed for why I've played for the last few months, if you haven't noticed. So if you want an argument, this is pretty much what you're going to get. I hope it's enough fuel for more dialogue.

Did you miss the fact where I had been playing my spider regularly until my sub ran out and it got locked on me? I know what Gladden creepside is like. It's not bad because of the game, or because of boxing, or etc.

It's bad because players aren't taking initiative to get off their ### and get out there and improve their skill at their classes instead of blaming the current state of the moors entirely on the game itself. They'd rather moan about it in OOC while grams is camped 24/7 and freepside gets consistently more and more boring.

[Shau'nac]

[Shau'nac]

Sort of on topic:

I haven't been out as much lately, lately being the last like month. I still go out nearly every day, on my defiler for chatting or lowbie/unknown creep to scope things out and see how it's going. Oftentimes it's a Grams camp and folks are hanging out at the fire just in front of Grams. Complaining about the camp, complaining about the folks pushing into the freeps to try and get a kill, complaining about those complaining about others (I'm usually this one, rofl). It's really quite disappointing.

A couple nights in OOC I raged out and told people to quit being scared they're going to flipping die, quit thinking because they have two healers you aren't going to get ANY kills. We're outgunned, but we can still get some kills! But that's not enough for some folks. I think I am in the minority in that I just enjoy the fights, if we get kills that's great. Purple numbers are nice, but that's not why I go out there, it's not what I look forward to. I like healing (like a loser), I like knowing I'm keeping my group up in these fights, I like dying knowing that me dying afforded those with me extra breathing room to roflstomp our opponents.

I sorta lost where I was going, partially why I try to avoid TL;DR posts. xD

Basically it's on us to make this mess fun. I see high ranked people sitting in Grams GRRing in OOC, I dunno guess they put their time in so that's that. But it isn't. It doesn't just stop, you have to keep actively trying to make it better. Waiting for someone else to do something doesn't get it done. And don't you start with OH POPPIES YOU LEAD THEN, I played that game back a couple years ago with Rev. I'm dreadful at leading, but I know I'm good support, I'm super mean.

[motumbo]

Just my point.. if you mirror classes, almost the same difference remains at any rank.. A fully geared rank 15 Guardian will own a rank 15 Reaver or Burg vs Warg if both players are equally skilled at playing their class.

The same discrepancy transfer to groups and raids. You can stack a group to a certain point and have success against a Freep's raid at times but it will get to the point it is a no win situation because of all the options freeps have if they choose to stack a group or raid using those advantages.

Guys, if you don't believe me just do a little experiment.. Take out movement skill. Line the opposing classes that I listed up and don't strafe or kite, just start hitting your skill rotations at the same time and see who dies first? As a matter of fact you can do this with the Freep being 2 to 3 ranks lower than the Creep and I'll even give the Creep all the OP buffs..

Come back and tell me how your experiments turned out?

Well first off ATM.. at least for me... my reaver can beat any class in a 1v1 regardless of rank... I know its a stretch but bear with me... a lot is built off a strategy.... every raid is wipable... its the approach people use that will lead to whichever end (major digression sorry) .. and to your 1v1 only going through skill rotations is just a bad idea.. because your only playing to one sides strengths... creeps strength lies in tactic fullness and taking advantage ofshortcommings.. you can't take those away and assume a fair fight...

[Bond007]

Sort of on topic:

I haven't been out as much lately, lately being the last like month. I still go out nearly every day, on my defiler for chatting or lowbie/unknown creep to scope things out and see how it's going. Oftentimes it's a Grams camp and folks are hanging out at the fire just in front of Grams. Complaining about the camp, complaining about the folks pushing into the freeps to try and get a kill, complaining about those complaining about others (I'm usually this one, rofl). It's really quite disappointing.

A couple nights in OOC I raged out and told people to quit being scared they're going to flipping die, quit thinking because they have two healers you aren't going to get ANY kills. We're outgunned, but we can still get some kills! But that's not enough for some folks. I think I am in the minority in that I just enjoy the fights, if we get kills that's great. Purple numbers are nice, but that's not why I go out there, it's not what I look forward to. I like healing (like a loser), I like knowing I'm keeping my group up in these fights, I like dying knowing that me dying afforded those with me extra breathing room to roflstomp our opponents.

I sorta lost where I was going, partially why I try to avoid TL;DR posts. xD

Basically it's on us to make this mess fun. I see high ranked people sitting in Grams GRRing in OOC, I dunno guess they put their time in so that's that. But it isn't. It doesn't just stop, you have to keep actively trying to make it better. Waiting for someone else to do something doesn't get it done. And don't you start with OH POPPIES YOU LEAD THEN, I played that game back a couple years ago with Rev. I'm dreadful at leading, but I know I'm good support, I'm super mean.

My god, thank you.

Like, this is exactly what I have been putting out there for the last, goddamn, who knows, half hundred posts I've written on these forums. Somehow my meaning is always misinterpreted (or twisted) by the majority of the "forums peeps", yet in game I've found plenty of completely reasonable people who understand and agree with me.

I'll say it again, because I can, and some of y'all need to keep reading it until it sinks in. I'm not advocating solo'ing 24/7. I'm not advocating grouping 24/7. I'm not advocating only playing the strongest classes every given expansion. Never have advocated these, never will. They're not the main contributor to current, stale PvP.

You leading more groups, me leading more groups, WON'T FIX THE PROBLEM. It. Will. Not. The problem isn't about numbers, or grouping, or not grouping. It's about the MENTALITY of people, and WHAT THEY DO while they're in a group, while they're not in a group, while they're playing a strong class, while they're playing a weak class. And it's complex, which is why my posts are long and complex when I'm trying to explain it.

When you shove it into a tiny little box of: "Oh, well maybe we just need to group more often." "Oh, well maybe we just need more creeps." "Oh, well maybe we just need less burglars." you're instantly watering down the real problem and ignoring the actual roots. And while you're bickering about whether or not creeps are underpowered, you're just letting the passive PvP mentality of this server grow more and more.

[DaxMaxtor]

This is where you go wrong. You can't mirror classes and expect that to be balanced. The classes were never designed to be mirrors of each other.

Even if you do take out ALL aspects that Coldfell talked about, and just strip down to the raw class v class, original "rock-paper-scissors" thing, you'll find that certain creeps have an edge over certain freeps and certain freeps have an edge over certain freeps.

A r15 Reaver will own a fully geared r15 Champ/LM/Mini/Hunter (but lose to Wardens/Guards/Burgs/Captains)

A r15 Spider will own a fully geared r15 Burg/RK/Warden/Hunter/Captain (but lose to Champ/LM/Guard)

A r15 Warg will own a fully geared r15 Guard/RK/Mini/Champ/Captain (but lose to Warden/Burg/LM)

A r15 BA will own a fully geared r15 Captain/Champ/Hunter (but lose to Warden/Burg/LM)

Again, this is strictly "1v1 no holds barred," which I will again emphasize is NOT a good scenario to evaluate the game by. The game is an MMORPG, and as such, will have multiple players contributing in a fight, whether or not they are grouped (I am using my definition of "group" here, where people are in the same party, with fellowship chat/voice chat/etc.).


Take out movement skill and you have instantaneously taken out a key part of the game for certain classes.

Take a hunter v reaver. Take a champ v warg. Just start hitting your skill rotations at the same time, and see who dies first. See? I can cherry pick 1v1 scenarios too, but that doesn't mean hunters or champs are underpowered. They're just weak 1v1 at the moment. Hmmm... kinda like defilers/WLs are weak 1v1 at the moment?

First off, I was here when the first people started wondering out to the Ettenmoors and I'm sorry, but Classes were mirrored. Wargs and Burgs, Reavers and Champions, Defilers and Minstrel, ect.. all had the same moral, power, number of skills which functioned the same but had different names only.
Back then the only difference was an individuals skill with a mouse, skill selection and timing (all the things Coldfell was talking about).

As time progressed and more content and higher levels and difficulty were added to PvE, the differences began.

I have acknowledged and still commend you on the "rock-paper-scissors" analogy. It's the perfect way to describe matching classes that were never mirrored in the first place (Ranged vs Melee, ect..) but I was failing to understand why you refuse to see the logic in matching like classes to determine the imbalance in this game until just now. Be it two players with identical skill, using all their movement skills or simply lining up the once same (mirrored) classes without any movement is of no consequence. I have just now realized you see no logic or respect any opinion other than your own.

It slapped me in the face when you posted the following, ignoring all parameters to the game I offered up and are insisting on playing your rock-paper-scissors game.

A r15 Reaver will own a fully geared r15 Champ/LM/Mini/Hunter (but lose to Wardens/Guards/Burgs/Captains)

A r15 Spider will own a fully geared r15 Burg/RK/Warden/Hunter/Captain (but lose to Champ/LM/Guard)

A r15 Warg will own a fully geared r15 Guard/RK/Mini/Champ/Captain (but lose to Warden/Burg/LM)

A r15 BA will own a fully geared r15 Captain/Champ/Hunter (but lose to Warden/Burg/LM)

It's all good though, you did match up a couple which you missed. For example: Take the first line where you matched a Champ up with a Reaver? Wrong.. Now remember, Freeps have three choices that the Reaver doesn't and yes, depending if a Champ is Red, Yellow or Blue makes a huge difference facing a Reaver. I may be wrong but I actually believe that the Champ and Reaver are probably the most balanced of all the Classes. However, if that champ makes the right color choice, the Reaver will loose most the time if it wins any at all.

I could go on with other examples but what's the point? You know what? I'm gonna end this debate right here for my part. It's become a Grams, GV, Rez camp for me and we all know how old Gunnor falls asleep during those, but do continue while I wonder off on one of those nature walks that ol FurryDave introduced me to. Besides, if your gonna make up the rules here and insist we all play by them, then I'll just take my ball and glove and go play elsewhere..

Thanks for some insight though..

[Bond007]

First off, I was here when the first people started wondering out to the Ettenmoors and I'm sorry, but Classes were mirrored. Wargs and Burgs, Reavers and Champions, Defilers and Minstrel, ect.. all had the same moral, power, number of skills which functioned the same but had different names only.

I was here in SoA too. The classes were never mirror images of each other, and it's strange that you remember it being so. Never mind the fact that there were originally 7 freep classes and 5 creep classes (thus meaning that at least 2 had to have been "left out" if mirror imaging really ever was intended), I don't remember burgs ever having a sprint skill like wargs, nor captains having inductioned healing skills. There are other examples.

Also, defilers? Defilers weren't even introduced initially, so how were they intended to be the counter to minstrels? They could not have been intended to be the mirror image of an RK, seeing as RKs weren't introduced until Moria.

Back then the only difference was an individuals skill with a mouse, skill selection and timing (all the things Coldfell was talking about).

Back then, the moors was truly imbalanced. I remember the ridiculousness of HS'ing greenies and taking off 80% off ranked creeps' morale, the ridiculous grey-barring of burgs and LMs, etc. etc. I would never want to go back to SoA PvP. You seem to remember a drastically different SoA than I do.

HD is very close to true balance. A few classes need retouching, certain mechanics need to be reworked, and it'd be perfect out there. Of course, just glancing at U13's tentative patch notes, I'm not so sure Turbine went in the right direction with some changes (such as, but not limited to, moar warden dps. Because that was necessary.)

I have just now realized you see no logic or respect any opinion other than your own.

I have never insulted your opinion in any of my posts. I respectfully disagree with you. Of all people, I would be the last to claim that someone else's opinion doesn't matter, given the fact that that is the only thing that bothers me in a game.

It slapped me in the face when you posted the following, ignoring all parameters to the game I offered up and are insisting on playing your rock-paper-scissors game.

What parameters was I ignoring? I was following these "rules", stated by yourself (and let's be honest, we all know how Moors theories go when we pretend as if rules exist out there).

Make them all rank 15 with full audacity and they have all the store bought buffs available.. You think the results might be the same?

It's all good though, you did match up a couple which you missed. For example: Take the first line where you matched a Champ up with a Reaver? Wrong.. Now remember, Freeps have three choices that the Reaver doesn't and yes, depending if a Champ is Red, Yellow or Blue makes a huge difference facing a Reaver. I may be wrong but I actually believe that the Champ and Reaver are probably the most balanced of all the Classes. However, if that champ makes the right color choice, the Reaver will loose most the time if it wins any at all.

If I did not neglect from using wrath/against the odds/morale pot against champs when I fight them (1v1 and open world), I would win every time on my reaver. Regardless of color. If I used wrath, I would finish at full health against a blue line champ. Yellow line fight would be over within seconds. Redline is the closest fight, and still heavily in favor of the reaver.

We were talking about no holds barred, equal skill, yes? Aiolis/Mazzor/Mathea are all more skilled players than I am, yet if I fought them no holds barred, I am sure I could beat them on my reaver every single time, regardless of the line they ran. Equal skilled players? The reaver would tear through the champ.

That's the entire reason holding back makes the game more fun. If every player were equally skilled, and I always blew my entire arsenal against every player I ran across, I would always win vs. some classes and always lose vs. other classes. That turns LOTRO into a card game, not an intricate MMO.

Besides, if your gonna make up the rules here and insist we all play by them, then I'll just take my ball and glove and go play elsewhere..

Where did I make up rules? I was using your scenario, your rules. I even went ahead and used your second scenario, where you set one person in front of another person, and have them run their skill rotation. Again, hunter v reaver and warg v champ. Reaver and warg will win. And this isn't just limited to 2 freep and 2 creep classes. Set an RK in front of a BA, set a minstrel in front of a spider. Even when you disregard integral parts of PvP (kiting/movement/use of environment), you'll still never end up with one side always winning.

If you're referring to me disregarding the r0 v r0 thing way back at the start of this thread, I already explained why I do not consider r0 vs r0 a "level playing field," and not because freeps are OP. Between r0 and r7 on creepside, your power increases exponentially, between access to more corruptions, potent skills, and traits. Between r0 and r7 on freepside... nothing happens. You get a whopping 6% more damage and 8% more morale, the same as creeps do, but nothing more.

The power difference gap closes quickly within a few weeks of playing a creep. There is nothing imbalanced about this. Take a fresh lvl 95 freep who has invested zero time gearing out his character, and he will be at just as severe a disadvantage as a greenie on creepside who has invested zero time in improving his character.

Motumbo explained this as well.

[DaxMaxtor]

I was here in SoA too. The classes were never mirror images of each other, and it's strange that you remember it being so. Never mind the fact that there were originally 7 freep classes and 5 creep classes (thus meaning that at least 2 had to have been "left out" if mirror imaging really ever was intended), I don't remember burgs ever having a sprint skill like wargs, nor captains having inductioned healing skills. There are other examples.

Also, defilers? Defilers weren't even introduced initially, so how were they intended to be the counter to minstrels? They could not have been intended to be the mirror image of an RK, seeing as RKs weren't introduced until Moria.



Back then, the moors was truly imbalanced. I remember the ridiculousness of HS'ing greenies and taking off 80% off ranked creeps' morale, the ridiculous grey-barring of burgs and LMs, etc. etc. I would never want to go back to SoA PvP. You seem to remember a drastically different SoA than I do.

HD is very close to true balance. A few classes need retouching, certain mechanics need to be reworked, and it'd be perfect out there. Of course, just glancing at U13's tentative patch notes, I'm not so sure Turbine went in the right direction with some changes (such as, but not limited to, moar warden dps. Because that was necessary.)



I have never insulted your opinion in any of my posts. I respectfully disagree with you. Of all people, I would be the last to claim that someone else's opinion doesn't matter, given the fact that that is the only thing that bothers me in a game.


What parameters was I ignoring? I was following these "rules", stated by yourself (and let's be honest, we all know how Moors theories go when we pretend as if rules exist out there).





If I did not neglect from using wrath/against the odds/morale pot against champs when I fight them (1v1 and open world), I would win every time on my reaver. Regardless of color. If I used wrath, I would finish at full health against a blue line champ. Yellow line fight would be over within seconds. Redline is the closest fight, and still heavily in favor of the reaver.

We were talking about no holds barred, equal skill, yes? Aiolis/Mazzor/Mathea are all more skilled players than I am, yet if I fought them no holds barred, I am sure I could beat them on my reaver every single time, regardless of the line they ran. Equal skilled players? The reaver would tear through the champ.

That's the entire reason holding back makes the game more fun. If every player were equally skilled, and I always blew my entire arsenal against every player I ran across, I would always win vs. some classes and always lose vs. other classes. That turns LOTRO into a card game, not an intricate MMO.



Where did I make up rules? I was using your scenario, your rules. I even went ahead and used your second scenario, where you set one person in front of another person, and have them run their skill rotation. Again, hunter v reaver and warg v champ. Reaver and warg will win. And this isn't just limited to 2 freep and 2 creep classes. Set an RK in front of a BA, set a minstrel in front of a spider. Even when you disregard integral parts of PvP (kiting/movement/use of environment), you'll still never end up with one side always winning.

If you're referring to me disregarding the r0 v r0 thing way back at the start of this thread, I already explained why I do not consider r0 vs r0 a "level playing field," and not because freeps are OP. Between r0 and r7 on creepside, your power increases exponentially, between access to more corruptions, potent skills, and traits. Between r0 and r7 on freepside... nothing happens. You get a whopping 6% more damage and 8% more morale, the same as creeps do, but nothing more.

The power difference gap closes quickly within a few weeks of playing a creep. There is nothing imbalanced about this. Take a fresh lvl 95 freep who has invested zero time gearing out his character, and he will be at just as severe a disadvantage as a greenie on creepside who has invested zero time in improving his character.

Motumbo explained this as well.

Ok, this really is the end of my debate with you.

The subject of our debate was that Freeps and Creeps are as balanced as they have ever been with you Pro and me Con.

My challenge to you was to attempt to match them by their rolls in the game (melee vs melee, healer vs healer, range vs range ect..) and see how they matched up with all conditions being the same..

Ok, just our of curiosity, let's play a little game?

I know your a skilled player, so let's clone you and have one play creep and one play freep.

Let's say that this is the first time any of these classes step into the Ettenmoors and have no rank and no audacity. Neither class has access to store items and all the keeps and outpost are even.

In a 1v1 with no holds barred, which class will win over the other?

Burg vs Warg -
Champion vs Reaver -
Minstrel vs Defiler -
Lore Master vs Spider -
Captain vs War Leader -
Hunter vs BA -
Warden vs any Creep class -

There were objections to this because of starting rank so I modified it by letting you pick any rank with all else even and you still danced around it.

The best I could get out of any of your replies is that you have no problem standing toe to toe with a champion without strafing or kitting and beating them on your Reaver. Even emphasizing that you would have full health when finished. All I can say is that you are a lot better than I am.

It was my intent to translate the imbalance in the individual classes into groups and even raids but I have obviously failed miserably.

You are also right about Defilers not being around in the beginning. Warleaders were the only healers on Creepside, but I just thought a Defiler would match up with a Minstrel better. I feel very foolish now for making that comparison.

I concede. You have won this debate and congratulations.

I wish I had known you back in February of 2007 when I first came to this game. I can't believe I didn't run across you when I first came out to the Ettenmoors. Especially someone with your renown.

How old are you by the way?
I'm upset with Sylverest for not introducing you to me before he rage quit over the first major Hunter nerf.

[Bond007]

I concede. You have won this debate and congratulations.

Meh. That's all well and good, but getting you to say "Alright, you win, whatever dude." was never the point of this thread. If it was, I would be just another KMT/Grogog/Dalok who just blabbers about nonsense until people grudgingly agree with him. I genuinely want to make a change on this server, and the only way I can see it happening is to convince those with the most influence on both sides of what is (what I see as) reality.

I enjoy gaming (obviously) but what's the reason I enjoy gaming? Humans enjoy challenges. We thrive off them. We stand on mountains and point at the ground floor and say "Damn, we got here. Hell yeah." This game has been a challenge for me for 7 years of my life. I've taken breaks, played other games, etc. but I always enjoy coming back to this game for two reasons: 1) Consistent challenge and 2) Consistent community.

With HD, #1 has been ripped out from under the floor beneath me. PvE is not challenging anymore, for reasons I won't get into right now. But PvP still has potential. It's not that I don't find the game's PvP challenging anymore, because on Brandy I still find challenge. The server's PvP has changed. Gladden's PvP atmosphere has changed, and not for the better in my eyes. But if I choose to leave this server completely, even if I were willing to blow $125 on this game to keep myself entertained until it dies within the next few years (as it is sure to do), I'd lose #2, the Gladden community.

That's why I'm disappointed. I enjoy LOTRO. But now I have to make a choice between challenge or community.

Others have already made their choice:


Clock, Pause, Sippy, Drincho, and others have left the server/game in search of challenge. But I'm still on the fence.

So, being serious here, not sarcastic, because this is an honest question that I don't have an answer to: what would you do in such a situation?

Obviously, I'm taking a break from the game for now. Because right now I don't find it worth my time. But I'm not so sure I want to toss the towel in just yet. Hence the reasons for my threads and why I want people to bring the challenge back to this server. We have the capability to do so.

I wish I had known you back in February of 2007 when I first came to this game. I can't believe I didn't run across you when I first came out to the Ettenmoors. Especially someone with your renown.

How old are you by the way?
I'm upset with Sylverest for not introducing you to me before he rage quit over the first major Hunter nerf.

I'm 20. Kept to myself for a long time out there. I didn't learn about GLFF until SoM. Yeah, I'm not joking, lol.

Until RoI, I only played my hunter on freepside. WL and reaver were my main characters on creepside. But I didn't play this game as much back then as I have in the past 2 years.

School has become drastically easy for me since I transferred to a different university, and I have a lot of free time on my hands with only 4 things to do in the grand city that my college town is. 1) Drink, 2) Smoke, 3) Play video games, and 4) Do all of the above with friends xD

Being the well-raised, responsible child that I am, I naturally do all four.

[Witch0King]

I think Guard bleeds are funny. The guard themselves are op. Immortal, no lack of self-heals. can land heavy crits. yet their bleeds can take 25k of your health np or more. I mean, what does that class lack?

[DaxMaxtor]

Ok, Now that that debate has ended, let me offer up a little Grandfatherly advice?

Meh. That's all well and good, but getting you to say "Alright, you win, whatever dude." was never the point of this thread. If it was, I would be just another KMT/Grogog/Dalok who just blabbers about nonsense until people grudgingly agree with him. I genuinely want to make a change on this server, and the only way I can see it happening is to convince those with the most influence on both sides of what is (what I see as) reality.

I believe your perceptions are skewed for obvious reasons and your statement about KMT and Grog is a good example. First off, I find it hard to believe that KMT's drunken rants have convinced anyone to agree with him. How are Grog's rants anything like KMT's or how are they any different from the walls of text that you and I have put here in the forums? Would it be that the two of you don't see eye to eye on many subjects or something?

With HD, #1 has been ripped out from under the floor beneath me. PvE is not challenging anymore, for reasons I won't get into right now. But PvP still has potential. It's not that I don't find the game's PvP challenging anymore, because on Brandy I still find challenge. The server's PvP has changed. Gladden's PvP atmosphere has changed, and not for the better in my eyes. But if I choose to leave this server completely, even if I were willing to blow $125 on this game to keep myself entertained until it dies within the next few years (as it is sure to do), I'd lose #2, the Gladden community.

That's why I'm disappointed. I enjoy LOTRO. But now I have to make a choice between challenge or community.

Others have already made their choice:


Clock, Pause, Sippy, Drincho, and others have left the server/game in search of challenge. But I'm still on the fence.

So, being serious here, not sarcastic, because this is an honest question that I don't have an answer to: what would you do in such a situation?

Obviously, I'm taking a break from the game for now. Because right now I don't find it worth my time. But I'm not so sure I want to toss the towel in just yet. Hence the reasons for my threads and why I want people to bring the challenge back to this server. We have the capability to do so.

This is actually another good example of why I think you may be so misunderstood. I really do feel your pain here and you touched a nerve as to some of the reasons I don't play Freep anymore.

I have to wonder if you actually go back and read anything you write here and if so, do you see the things that contradict one another in your writings?

First off, can you name anyone other than me who still comes out to the Ettenmoors on a regular basis that was here in Feb of 2007? I can't. Surely you've noticed all the turnover over the years. The whole "I'm leaving for greener grass" thing has been going on ever sense they started the Transfer system.

I don't know how many times I've see folks predict the end of this game as they took off for greener grass but yet, we seem to always get new folks and the community just seems to adapt. I have even taken my own breaks from the game and to my surprise, it was all here and thriving in my absents.

Now I realize you were around 12 yrs old back then but I'd think a youngun would remember things like that even more than a old toot like me would. You certainly give me the impression that you have no problem recalling everything else that went on back then. I'm jealous, I can't remember when SoA or even Moria went live, much less any of the specifics effecting class changes back then.

But back to perceptions: I feel that Gladden is alive and doing well. Creepside has seen a lot of new folks log in and begin the grind to rank and trust me, there are some really fun folks with lots of personality coming aboard. I never have a problem finding a small group when I want. even though they may not be high ranked and very competitive just yet.

I think that this may be where our perceptions of this game part ways. Now please don't take this as an insult but I do consider you what I refer to as a fair-weather pvp'r. The one thing we both have in common is that we play this game exactly how we want. It's our dime after all.

If you want to play both sides, then this game allows it. If you want to transfer to another server for greener pastures, then go for it. Again, it's your dime and if your not having fun here, you should do what your heart desires. We've managed to adapt to multitudes of folks coming and going on both sides of the fence.

With that said, and just speaking for myself, here's where I get mixed messages and wonder if you actually go back and read your stuff. It sounds like you are a devote member of the community who is simply advising us about things for the good of PvP on our server. In one line your telling me how we need more dedicated players willing to commit and then your transfering for more of a challenge?

You speak of SoA like you were there living the moment in our community and then your telling me that you have only played seriously for the last 2 yrs.

There's several examples I could go back to but what's the point? I not only get the feeling that you don't catch your own contradictions but you only skim most the other post for hot points, missing their real content. Which is kewl, ("my hypocrisy knows no bounds") because that's what I do most the time. You don't think I really read all the stuff you, Vic and Poopies type at one another do ya? Well ok, I read Poopies but only because it's Poopies.

The bottom line is that you may be in touch with what is going on in the Freep Community which for the majority are "Fair-weather PvPr's". All the names you keep dropping sure seem to indicated that anyway. And let's face it, the Freep community is another reason I am a Creep. Do any of you Freeps get along with one another? I assume that's why you all want to be a One-man, Two-man or Three-man Army that can beat the Moors single-handed.

If your serious about a real challenge, put your ego aside and come watch what Vic does? If you can't do that, then come see me on one of my days off and I'll introduce you to plenty of challenges as a Real Creep but then again, you'll have to check that same ego I put in check a long, long time ago.

[Bond007]

Obviously (and I'm sure you knew I was going to respond like this) I don't see hypocrisy in my posts.

I could directly respond to a lot more but I'll just talk about one thing you said that popped out to me, and then a more generalized response to the entire thing.

You don't have to play 5+ hours a day to be a member of the community, and that's what I meant when I said I didn't play as often as I have been the last 2 years. I still played enough to understand the game and how it worked, just not enough to be someone with server renown (harharhar PvP joke. Freeps get renown, get it. huhuhuhuhuhu).

I never made any claims to being someone who stood out for the first 5 years of this game. Nor are any of my arguments impacted by it. I still understood the game mechanics and why classes were never mirror images, etc.

I've begun to realize that people are going to see in my posts what they want to see, and I guess that goes for me too, no matter how much I don't want to misinterpret others. But here's what I see.

I'll say: "We need to be more willing to face challenge. Be more aggressive, solo more, don't shy from disadvantaged fights. These are what will improve you as a player, because they improved me and others as players, and are continuing to improve me and others as players."

And others will say:
"Quote: ', solo more,'"

"Ahem. I saw you with that boxer yesterday. I. SAW. YOU. YOU were standing next to him. You want me to solo 24/7? That's what you said dude. WELL WHY DON'T YOU GET AWAY FROM THE FLIPPING BOXER/KEEPS/BACKDOOR? You play a burglar, thus you are bad. You don't solo. You don't play the creep classes which are underpowered. Oh, others agree with you? BULL####. Show me proof. Play creepside and you'll never ask people to solo 24/7 again. You play creepside? BULL####. Show me proof."

And then I get confused and irritated because "soloing 24/7" or "never grouping" or "avoiding groups at all cost" is never a thing that I've proposed as a good idea.

But more importantly! It isn't even what I was arguing for in the first place! Even if I DID happen to support soloing 24/7, it doesn't belong in the discussion!

I did say the majority of this server's players need to try to stop only resorting to grouping when they're outgunned by an ungrouped opposition, or forming large raids "just to raid" when there are 5-6 players out on the other side (lololololololol). I did say the majority of this server's players need to try being more aggressive instead of keep squatting or chillaxing in grams/GV/rez one-shotters when they're outplayed once.

And then others will say:
"Quote: 'keep squatting'"

"Ahem. I saw you keep squatting yesterday. I. SAW. YOU. YOU WERE AT A KEEP. My 6 wargs kept tracking you in that keep and YOU NEVER CAME OUT. You were outplayed once and YOU NEVER CAME OUT OF THE KEEP. The wargs were all r6 or lower. Why didn't you come out? Then you got on your burg and attempted to kill one of us. That was funny. You failed. It's what I said man, you're a troll. Gotta play your OP burg to get kills, huh? THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT YOU'D SAY. Predictable excuses. Maybe if you played the way you're asking others to do you'd find the wargs who solo all day out there."


That's cherry picking quotes/subtext in order to replace my real meaning with an entirely different one. If I cherry pick quotes from someone on these forums, I apologize, but as of yet I don't see where I've done that in this argument -- picking out and scrutinizing a single quote/text block/concept to falsely represent someone's entire point.

So when people want to talk, I'll talk. When people want to twist my words, while it's amusing to read ridiculous comments, I'm more than happy to bring the debate to them too, although it's never what I really want to talk about. When people point out when I twist their words, I'm more than happy to go back and fix my words to address what they were actually saying. But in this particular discussion I have yet to see that I have done that.

You may very well think I am a hypocrite, which is fine, it's your opinion to do with as you like. But if you'd like it to be my opinion as well, instead of putting others' words in my mouth, use direct quotes from me in context.

[Winkey]

Children, calm yourselves.
I agree with Pause in that balance is fairly shot. Granted, my freeps are still 85, and I have barely played this expansion. However, from the few times I've logged in, this appears to be the case. A lot of people like to try and compare the classes, or compare rank 0 or 15 freeps to creeps, but what's the point? The classes don't mirror each other, and this is a group game. And as someone pointed out earlier, there's a hell of a lot more work put into a r0 freep than a creep. If nothing else, the r0 freep should be a lot better at their class than the creep. The last thing to account for is skill. No 2 players are quite the same. Even Debuff and I played slightly differently and had slightly different builds on burg. We both did pretty well, despite class or rank of the creep. Does that mean that burg was OP, or that those creeps were underpowered? No, it means we put a ton of time and effort into our gear, build, skill rotation and learning how to move/time skills effectively. I guess my point here is that any class seems OP when played well against another played not as well.

As a side note, and because this thread was derailed after probably the second post, I will be playing Elder Scrolls Online when it comes out in a few weeks. If anyone else is playing, feel free to say hi, my handle is @Winkey.

[DaxMaxtor]

Children, calm yourselves.
I agree with Pause in that balance is fairly shot. Granted, my freeps are still 85, and I have barely played this expansion. However, from the few times I've logged in, this appears to be the case. A lot of people like to try and compare the classes, or compare rank 0 or 15 freeps to creeps, but what's the point? The classes don't mirror each other, and this is a group game. And as someone pointed out earlier, there's a hell of a lot more work put into a r0 freep than a creep. If nothing else, the r0 freep should be a lot better at their class than the creep. The last thing to account for is skill. No 2 players are quite the same. Even Debuff and I played slightly differently and had slightly different builds on burg. We both did pretty well, despite class or rank of the creep. Does that mean that burg was OP, or that those creeps were underpowered? No, it means we put a ton of time and effort into our gear, build, skill rotation and learning how to move/time skills effectively. I guess my point here is that any class seems OP when played well against another played not as well.

As a side note, and because this thread was derailed after probably the second post, I will be playing Elder Scrolls Online when it comes out in a few weeks. If anyone else is playing, feel free to say hi, my handle is @Winkey.

You Freeps tickle me!!

First off, this Thread (which I started) is on track. It is the state of the Ettenmoors afterall. Now if we were talking about the seating arrangement at the Prancing Poney, that would be a derailment.

Secondly, when balancing anything, one always starts with it's parts. Especially in a game where the focus is on group play. It's not rocket science and I can't understand why you freeps don't get it.

Lastly, as in all things in this game, you freeps ignore the boundries. In the title, did you not see "Creeps Only"? Most people in this game play it to endgame and never enter the Moors. The work they invest is solely for PvE. Then the majority of Freeps that do come out, do it simply for the PvE incentives that the game put here to lure them here. A few others come out just to play the flavor of the month, so they can be uber and for a fee they can do just that. For that reason, this game will never be balanced. Being balanced just doesn't pay the bills.

So everything a Freep does up to entering the Ettenmoors is mute. What little PvP a Freep actually does, doesn't start until they enter the Moors.

Now get out of our thread you Freep.... and happy grinding in your new mmo.. like that's anything new...

[Pausekey]

The bottom line is that you may be in touch with what is going on in the Freep Community which for the majority are "Fair-weather PvPr's". All the names you keep dropping sure seem to indicated that anyway. And let's face it, the Freep community is another reason I am a Creep. Do any of you Freeps get along with one another? I assume that's why you all want to be a One-man, Two-man or Three-man Army that can beat the Moors single-handed.

I hope you use the word "all" to in fact mean, "not all" the names he dropped. My WL was always my main PvP character, and was also out in the moors when you were still running around on your Guard. Try sticking to facts, they might suit you better.

Before you kick too many "freeps" out of this thread, I would again check your facts (Noticing a trend here btw). Winkey has a combined creep rank of 33, with a combined freep rank of... wait for it... 25. Wow! That means it is almost like he played more creep than freep. Hahaha no wait, that is exactly what that means. So cool the attempts at the sly little jabs and tone down the ego some.

As an aside, why on earth does the age thing always come up? I mean what an idiotic thing to go on about. Yall gonna ask for swift's bench press and mile times next? Lol the old internet one-up, sad really.

[DaxMaxtor]

I hope you use the word "all" to in fact mean, "not all" the names he dropped. My WL was always my main PvP character, and was also out in the moors when you were still running around on your Guard. Try sticking to facts, they might suit you better.

Before you kick too many "freeps" out of this thread, I would again check your facts (Noticing a trend here btw). Winkey has a combined creep rank of 33, with a combined freep rank of... wait for it... 25. Wow! That means it is almost like he played more creep than freep. Hahaha no wait, that is exactly what that means. So cool the attempts at the sly little jabs and tone down the ego some.

As an aside, why on earth does the age thing always come up? I mean what an idiotic thing to go on about. Yall gonna ask for swift's bench press and mile times next? Lol the old internet one-up, sad really.

Oh dear, more math.. Why you kids gotta put math questions to an OLD MAN (there's my age thing).. ok, 5x5=25 5x7=35.. Awh, forget that.. Let's try something else.. My time played on any Freep in the Moors in the last two and a half yrs = 0.. Your's and Winky's?

I've only Creeped here on Gladden for the last 2 1/2 yrs and my total is 40.. Does that make me a Super Creep?? Say yes, say yes????

Put those facts in your pipe and smoke on it. Now go back to your flipfloppin you Freep...

[Winkey]

Anyone that played with me can tell you that be it freep or creep, I went to the moors to PvP, not PvE. I didn't play flavor of the month classes. Your are right though, that the PvP I did was in the moors, seeing as how that's the PvP zone.
Also, yes I do a lot of PvE grinding in MMOs. I enjoy endgame raiding as well as PvP, and in order to properly raid, grinding out gear is necessary.
I preferred playing freep because of the technical challenge, ie the min/maxing from different gear/trait/rotation choices. I still however played quite a bit of creep, which was fun as well. In fact, I haven't played anything but creep since Helm's Deep came out. Am I cool now too?
Lastly, balancing group play does not necessarily mean making every piece identical, it should be the overall result that matters. I don't believe they've achieved this, but complaining that every class isn't exactly equal to every other is pointless.

[DaxMaxtor]

Nu cuz u plyed frp 2.

Said one flipflopper to da utter.

Anyone that played with me can tell you that be it freep or creep, I went to the moors to PvP, not PvE. I didn't play flavor of the month classes. Your are right though, that the PvP I did was in the moors, seeing as how that's the PvP zone.
Also, yes I do a lot of PvE grinding in MMOs. I enjoy endgame raiding as well as PvP, and in order to properly raid, grinding out gear is necessary.
I preferred playing freep because of the technical challenge, ie the min/maxing from different gear/trait/rotation choices. I still however played quite a bit of creep, which was fun as well. In fact, I haven't played anything but creep since Helm's Deep came out. Am I cool now too?
Lastly, balancing group play does not necessarily mean making every piece identical, it should be the overall result that matters. I don't believe they've achieved this, but complaining that every class isn't exactly equal to every other is pointless.

First let me commend you on doing what you like. It's your dime afterall. I also commend you on not playing both sides since Helm's Deep. I stand corrected. It's nice to have a dedicated Creep who one doesn't see on the other side twenty minutes later.

Let's see if we can agree on this? If we have an equal number of parts on each side (which isn't the case, I know) and each of those parts on one side outweigh their counterparts on the other side, would that tilt the scales?

Again, by mirroring/comparing similar classes, it was my intent to show how the parts added up to a imbalance.

Want to see another imbalance? Spend one day in the Moors and count the Ranked players (Rank 9 or better) on each side and tell us which side has the most running around on what you call "flavor of the month classes" at this time?

[Bond007]

In fact, I haven't played anything but creep since Helm's Deep came out. Am I cool now too?

Nu cuz u plyed frp 2.


Also, Ronnug, if we're seriously playing the "you're an ezmoder, he's an ezmoder" game:

My first alt leveled up was a... wait for it... warden. Where's that warden now? Oh, right, I shelved it, probably because I like to ezmode.

Winkey played a spider when they were weak. Guess what happened when they became strong? He rolled a warg, the weakest class during RoI/RoR. He must like to ezmode as well.

Pausekey played a... wait for it... WL. He is clearly the biggest ezmoder of all.

Just because people played freepside doesn't instantly make them a fairweather pvp'er, which is what you seem to be hammering at time and again here. Although certain classes may be "OP" (in your eyes) at times, you need to look beyond the simple fact that a person happens to be playing an "OP" class at a given time. You play a reaver and a warg, the most versatile creep classes out there currently. Clearly you are an ezmoder because of it.

Oh, and I play my creeps far more than my freeps. As far as the total ranks go, I have 27 on freepside and 49 on creepside.

5678

[Bond007]

As an aside, why on earth does the age thing always come up? I mean what an idiotic thing to go on about. Yall gonna ask for swift's bench press and mile times next? Lol the old internet one-up, sad really.

I bench press 345 and run a 2 minute mile

#justsayin #triathalontraining

[DaxMaxtor]

You play a reaver and a warg, the most versatile creep classes out there currently. Clearly you are an ezmoder because of it.

Fact is, I am an ezmoder, especially on my FReaver atm. The warg isn't so ezmode and I actually had to dish out some TP for it but I don't actually play it that much and could easily be labeled the worst Warg on our server.. The point is that I don't have a problem with that.

I certainly wouldn't call any of our good Wargs, ezmoders though.. Playing a solo Warg is probably the most challenging Class in the game atm. Probably why I don't play it that much. Then again, playing a Hunter in the Moors atm is probably close.

I bench maybe 45lbs and if you see me running, stop and rescue me because something scarey is chasing me.

[Pausekey]

Oh dear, more math.. Why you kids gotta put math questions to an OLD MAN (there's my age thing).. ok, 5x5=25 5x7=35.. Awh, forget that.. Let's try something else.. My time played on any Freep in the Moors in the last two and a half yrs = 0.. Your's and Winky's?

I've only Creeped here on Gladden for the last 2 1/2 yrs and my total is 40.. Does that make me a Super Creep?? Say yes, say yes????

Put those facts in your pipe and smoke on it. Now go back to your flipfloppin you Freep...

Well since you draw the line that way I guess you would be content to have only the handful of people who never play freep be allowed on creep side. In which case a lot of the big name creeps will have to go. Should be fine though, all traitors anyway i suppose.

Gunnor is your aim to piss off vet creeps? All the people who don't mind helping creeps in a losing fight? Because for all your mouthing off on the forums there are plenty of people you raided with in tough times creepside, who you now call out from such a lofty throne. Yea i did play freep in those 2.5 years. I enjoyed it. Enjoyed WL more though, fact. Notice you didn't open that mouth when I was tossing out heals though.

Super creep? Nah. You're a two-faced latecomer, ranting about loyalty in a pvp zone that would die if people could only play one side.

Do something useful for a change, pick on the people who actually hurt pvp, not those who are out to enjoy a game.

[Ravyrn]

Just for the record, those of you listing freepside and creepside combined levels of alts --- infamy and renown would be more accurate. My freepside level count is 13+10+5+3 (estimate on the last two) = 31. My creepside level count is 12+10+9+7+6+6 = 60. My 31 levels on freepside probably have much more total renown than my 60 levels on creepside have infamy. Not looking to join in this argument. But pointing out basing side played on levels is quite biased.

Also, would like to add, to my recollection, no parties taking part in this discussion are flipfloppers or fairweather pvpers. Though there are certainly many on Gladden.