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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Hromgar
    Posts
    767

    The Endless Battle of Gramsfoot

    Disclaimer: As long as you're not farming, I don't care how you play. I have my opinions on what good pvp is, but they're just opinions. It's an open zone; do as you wish.

    That being said, it's sort of annoying and sort of humorous to see both sides complain about the Grams camp in OOC. Everyone seems to be opposed to it but large numbers on both sides still participate. I know it's easy renown/infamy and a safe spot for creeps (especially when they don't have a rez), but the Grams fight is never going to end until one side refuses to do it.

    Creeps, you don't always need the safety of Grams; in fact, I'd say you rarely need it. Move across the map in groups and you'll find freeps to kill.

    Freeps, I know it's easy renown just to sit in one spot and hit creeps as they come out, but if you want open-field pvp, leave Grams alone and make the creeps come out for a fight. It might take a little while, but they will do so.

    I remember when creeps were at an even greater disadvantage than they are now, yet they roamed the map in groups, doing significant damage. We can have that type of pvp on Landy again, but it's going to take effort and a little self-discipline. And just know that no matter which side you're on, if you're fighting at Grams and complaining about it, you are (1) part of the problem and (2) a hypocrite.

  2. #2
    Sadly, your opinion mirrors mine. Yet when you talk about discipline and easymode - those two don't often go together well (both sides mind you).

    My experience the last couple times I logged on my creep(s) have not been good - to the point I may just quit that part of the game.

    Quite honestly, what was once a thriving and fun PvP community has degraded to the point that there is no hope to get it back. The constant bickering, flip-floppers, spys, freeps/creeps harassing and insulting players, ego stroking, etc. has poisoned the community to the point it's become the normal day-to-day gameplay. Not all prescribed to that sort of gameplay style, but it has entrenched itself on the server and I personally don't see it ending.

    My last visit to the Moors, while on my warg, was just plain horrible. There was the OOC flame war (between two regular opponents), and a constant Grams camp - ie, roamed the map, only freeps at Grams and 1 in Lugz to keep their rez. Not once, but twice, my stealth position was exposed to Grams camping freeps by flipped freeps jumping on top of me. It's bad enough there's a camp at Grams, but to add that on top of it is just plain wrong. After the second time, I logged and haven't poked my head in since.

    Do I intend to quit or come back - I'm not sure. But those fights you ache for H may be a thing of the past unless something changes.

  3. #3
    Funny, I had the same conversation a day ago with a few freeps..
    My opinion about it is simple - not just one side, BOTH sides have to get their a** out of grams. If say, half of the creeps get a group and roam the map during a grams camp, they won't be noticed because All the freeps are at grams - and waiting at say, gta for them like some WPs sometimes dp, isn't worth the time and effort.
    If half of the freeps get away from grams, start a group, push a keep maybe, then most of the times creeps are welll aware of it but they choose the grams camp to stay at.
    What we need, is a fully cured freep and creepside that doesn't know of grams camps.. But that's impossible to do. I guess it's just the nature of our server.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by borges_maze View Post
    Disclaimer: As long as you're not farming, I don't care how you play. I have my opinions on what good pvp is, but they're just opinions. It's an open zone; do as you wish.


    I remember when creeps were at an even greater disadvantage than they are now, yet they roamed the map in groups, doing significant damage. We can have that type of pvp on Landy again, but it's going to take effort and a little self-discipline. And just know that no matter which side you're on, if you're fighting at Grams and complaining about it, you are (1) part of the problem and (2) a hypocrite.

    Honestly. It's the game that has crushed the quality of PvMP. It has affected Freeps as well as Creeps.


    You comment on how in the past creeps were able to leave grams and do damage. Creeps would leave grams in groups to flip keeps and defend what they take, giving the chance for creeps to map over and defend before Freeps showed up.
    Also creeps if they knew how to target and apply their class better than Freepside raids, they could cause serious damage.


    So why doesn't this apply any longer? For starters, hit points are so high that it requires a perfect coordinated effort to bring down a target before healers can notice. The buffer zone for catching someone being targeted is way higher than in the past, forcing raids to perfect their targeting to beat the extra buffer zone. This whole target forwarding being an absolute requirement NOW has seriously crushed the quality of raiding. Gone are the days where champions would time their aoe attacks and stuns on congested areas of creep melee, hunters combining ranged target assist to drop down ranged targets, minstrels monitoring their fellowship and not easily protecting entire raids. lore masters monitoring their debuffs and wounds on their fellowship. Guardians actually being able to protect players without melting. Raids have to sacrifice the qualities of classes for focused dps to break the hit point healing buffer zone or raids die.


    Also the lag as I posted earlier is the great equalizer. How can raids function at an advanced level when the frame rate is forced to 4 fps down your throat, with skills locking up when you need to time your attacks to get the most bang for your buck. All these overtime heals and damage skills given to both sides are crushing server communication. We use to have fun trying to get 3 to 4 rows of debuffs on tyrants. Now there are so many debuffs and heals the game stops reporting over 8+ rows to save lag.


    But wait, creeps or Freeps can roam the map when there is a raid out. Not the case anymore. Combat tactics involving positioning inside a keep? gone with the backdoor. Being able to bottleneck raids in keeps is gone. Remember elevator rezzing? When odds were against the defending team, defenders arriving to the keep would die at the front door to get rezzed in the cg/tyrant room to help defend the keep. That's why TA wasn't a favorite for this style, it had an open circle second floor. Great for flanking. Plus creeps would always drop the hornblower on Freepside and it could get real ugly real fast.


    But all the small group combat tactics are gone now thanks to the npcs being irrelevant now. In the past the defending team didn't have to focus fire to win, they had to position properly and monitor how many npcs the attacking team has aggroed. If you were able to make the attacking team over aggro npcs, you then pushed out and cripple the attacking team before they realized their mistake, likewise for attackers, they had to monitor their aggro as well as their position, quests that had been completed for the keep, I.E. Oil, hornblower, Murder holes, NPC reinforcements, and for TA, LC and Isen influencing NPC support for TA.


    Now the auto flipping makes defending positions horrible, worse than a needless keep ninja. And speaking of keep ninjas, the change to taking out the entire room discourages small groups getting a upper hand in the moors once again.


    Now we have these outposts which encourage PvE, and the delving with encourages more PvE. Objects in the moors that forces players to leave the battlefield for buffs is the worst decision a developer can make to encourage PvP if its not truly defendable.


    So honestly, I don't blame creeps for holding at grams, its their only defense at this time in moors, and the game forces an organized raid to survive against high enemy numbers. I don't blame Freeps because its dead out in the moors, nothing to play with.


    Tactics are being gutted out of the moors. We only have the developers to blame. Not Creepside or Freepside.
    Last edited by mike3433; Mar 09 2014 at 05:09 AM. Reason: changed and to as
    been in moors too long... Jimmycake
    Better to be noticed by actions than words.

  5. #5

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Posts
    660
    I admit I kinda chuckled at this one. One of the things that used to yank my tail before I dropped out of the Moors (and LOTRO in general) last June was the constant Grams camping. And it wasn't just that the freeps were always there, it was that the creeps hardly ever showed any creative initiative to take the fight elsewhere. Even the few times I tried to lead a group out and away, I got shot down. It was one of the final straws that made me realize it wasn't worth leaving my warg den any more.

    PvMP in the Moors started going rapidly downhill with RoR, and now it's to the point where it's borderline untenable. Between the game imbalance, the Moors-mechanics and prevailing decline of what used to be a great community on both sides, it's not near the fun it used to be. I've wandered back a few times since that last big pack I led last summer, but in all honesty, there's not much to keep me anchored enough to return full time.

    -Pup-

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by mike3433 View Post
    stuff about tactics being gutted out of the 'Moors
    Could you post this in the main PvMP forum or the Suggestions forum, where a dev might casually happen across it? Then there might actually be a chance that we could get some of these features back, which would be great. I don't think devs or blue names read individual server PvMP subforums that often.

    Otherwise, much +rep for your post!

    (I was going to reply in a similar vein to your earlier thread about the lag, since it seemed like you were directing it at the devs. They probably never saw it.)

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Hromgar
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    767
    Quote Originally Posted by dniv14 View Post
    Could you post this in the main PvMP forum or the Suggestions forum, where a dev might casually happen across it? Then there might actually be a chance that we could get some of these features back, which would be great. I don't think devs or blue names read individual server PvMP subforums that often.

    Otherwise, much +rep for your post!

    (I was going to reply in a similar vein to your earlier thread about the lag, since it seemed like you were directing it at the devs. They probably never saw it.)
    Not to be too much of a downer, but many of us vehemently warned against the pve (op buffs, keep buffs, etc.) changes in the beta where they were introduced. Everyone saw where it was headed, told the devs, and they went with it anyway.

    I generally agree with Jimmy's post, but respectfully disagree on a few points as well. I started an in-depth response a few times, but my heart's just not in it. The summary is: The pve buffs are bad for pvp, and Turbine has indeed ruined several tactical aspects of the Moors. However, you don't need npcs, even when there's a zerg out. As much as Turbine has screwed up pvp, the players (collectively) are just as much to blame. The majority of people on both sides play like they're afraid of dying in a video game.

    edit: Take note that this is my personal view. As I said before, go ahead and do what you like. It's an open pvp zone. The op was intended to point out that those complaining of the fighting at Grams while participating in it should probably take a bit of a look in a mirror.

 

 

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