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  1. #1

    Better computer crashes more frequently?!?

    I play on 2 different macs:

    iMac
    27-inch, late 2013
    3.5 Ghz Intel Core i7
    16GB 1600MHZ DDR3
    NVIDIA GeGorce GTX 780M 4096 MB
    OS X 10.9.1

    and

    MacBook Pro
    13-inch, Mid 2012
    2.9 GHz Intel Core i7
    8GB 1600 MHz DDR3
    Intel HD Graphics 4000 1024 MB
    OS X 10.9.1

    Yesterday I was playing with my daughter on the iMac and myself on the Macbook Pro, in a fellowship exploring Ered Luin. We were playing the same content, she was playing a loremaster and I was playing a guardian. We were playing on the same network, one room apart. The iMac is hardwired with Ethernet cable, the notebook was on the same network but on wifi. Both were set with the same graphics settings: high.

    The iMac would crash about every 10 minutes, the Pro didn’t crash once. Finally I turned down the graphics on the iMac to Low and the crashing subsided.

    Any idea why the higher end computer with the fancy graphics card would be crashing so frequently vs the older slower Pro?

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Location
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorinuil View Post
    Yesterday I was playing with my daughter on the iMac and myself on the Macbook Pro, in a fellowship exploring Ered Luin. We were playing the same content, she was playing a loremaster and I was playing a guardian. We were playing on the same network, one room apart. The iMac is hardwired with Ethernet cable, the notebook was on the same network but on wifi. Both were set with the same graphics settings: high.

    The iMac would crash about every 10 minutes, the Pro didn’t crash once. Finally I turned down the graphics on the iMac to Low and the crashing subsided.

    Any idea why the higher end computer with the fancy graphics card would be crashing so frequently vs the older slower Pro?

    These are the new system requirements for PCs
    Thread: LOTRO Hardware Survey and Requirements Update

    • OS: Windows XP
    • CPU: Intel Pentium 4 3.0GHz or AMD Equivalent
    • System Memory: 1GB (2GB for Windows Vista)
    • Graphics Card: at least 128MB Onboard graphics memory.
    • Internet Connection: Cable or DSL Connection
    • Direct X Version: Directx 9.0c
    • Disk Space: 12 GB (+3 GB for international clients)


    Please keep in mind that these are requirements we feel should allow you to run the game reliably at low to moderate settings. If you wish to experience the game at the highest settings, additional system memory and higher end graphics cards should be considered.
    ---
    The recommendations in the post above mention memory suggestions for discrete graphics cards, but please be aware that we suggest you have a video card that at least falls into the Nvidia 7000 series or the ATI equivalent range. Card falling under those performance levels may not offer sufficient performace, despite meeting the stated onboard memory requirements.

    Intel integrated chipsets are good basic graphics solutions, but not ideal for gaming. If you’re using an older Intel integrated video solution you may experience poor performance and low frame rates on even modest settings. If you are using a newer Intel chipset, and the game reports that you can use DirectX 10 or 11 modes, we recommend not enabling these. Doing so may cause some graphical elements to display oddly or not display at all.
    Note the following:
    1- Turbine is recommending a 4.3GHZ processor for LOW to MODERATE graphics settings
    2- The "newer" Intel chipset in the MacBook Pro actually works well with Open GL -- no DX 9/10/11 issues.
    3- The Nvidia Graphics chips in the iMac suffer from the fact that the Drivers are Apple's, not Nvidia's.
    4- Something changes in 12.3 which reduced playing time with the Mac Client to about 30 minutes down from about 45 minutes.

    Try using the mac client defaults -- on the first launcher window (where you enter userid and password) to the right of "Support" and "EN"
    -- use the Arrow pulldown, select Options, select repair, check "reset the game display settings" click "restore defaults"

    I happen to use a similar system, and "on a good day" I can now get between 30 and 45 minutes with the Mac Client.

    27 inch iMac Intel (mid 2010)
    Model: iMac11,3
    Processor: 2.93 GHz Intel Core i7
    Memory: 8 GB 1333 MHz DDR3
    Graphics: ATI Radeon HD 5750 1024 MB
    Display: 27-inch (2560 x 1440)
    Software OS X 10.9.2 (13C64)

    All of that said, No, I don't have any "rational" answer to your basic question. I suspect that it has to do with some sort of Race condition in memory management, but I don't know.

    BTW -- you SHOULD update to 10.9.2 because of the security issue introduced with 10.9.1 -- The update just came out last week.
    Bill Magill Mac Player Founder/Lifetimer
    Old Timers Guild - Gladden

    Val - Man Minstrel (90)
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    Valdicta - Dwarf RK (105)
    Valhad - Elf LM (65)
    Valkeeper - Elf RK (86)
    Valwood - Dwarf RK (80)

    Valhunt - Dwarf Hunter (70)
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    Ninth - Man Warden (65)

    "Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
    All about the fun!"


  3. #3

    thanks for your thoughts!

    I hope those minimum requirement are for a single core processor, not the quad core that is in the iMac these days. How that translates exactly…who knows. When I got the new iMac I debated about the i7 vs the i5 processor as I’ve read that the multithreading feature of the i7 is unnecessary for gaming, but since the rest of my family was also going to be using the computer (including video editing etc) I went ahead with the newest processor.

    And the Macbook pro is a dual core…hmmm. Could it run better on the slower processor for some reason?

    Interesting about the apple driver for the nvidia chip. Seems like that chip should be super overpowered for the game. It does make you wonder…

    So I filed a ticket with turbine and this was their suggestion:

    1. Starting at character select go into the 'options' menu
    2. Under graphics set the "Graphics Quality" option to medium
    3. Under adv graphics disable the shadow settings and post process
    4. Open the 'troubleshoot' section and put "Engine Speed" down to medium
    5. Exit the game client and restart it, so it saves and applies the settings

    I did this with my macbook yesterday and played 2 straight hours including 2 of the Dol Guldur skirmishes without a single crash. The night before crashed every hour or so just faming pipeweed. I haven’t had the opportunity to try these settings on the iMac just yet. I’ll report back soon. The engine speed thing was something I had never thought to try…not exactly sure what that does, but couldn’t tell one bit of difference in game play.

    And regarding the OS: must have updated immediately after my last post as both Macs are now running 10.9.2. Thanks!
    Last edited by lorinuil; Mar 06 2014 at 06:45 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Philadelphia, PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by lorinuil View Post
    I hope those minimum requirement are for a single core processor, not the quad core that is in the iMac these days. How that translates exactly…who knows. When I got the new iMac I debated about the i7 vs the i5 processor as I’ve read that the multithreading feature of the i7 is unnecessary for gaming, but since the rest of my family was also going to be using the computer (including video editing etc) I went ahead with the newest processor.

    And the Macbook pro is a dual core…hmmm. Could it run better on the slower processor for some reason?

    Interesting about the apple driver for the nvidia chip. Seems like that chip should be super overpowered for the game. It does make you wonder…

    So I filed a ticket with turbine and this was their suggestion:

    1. Starting at character select go into the 'options' menu
    2. Under graphics set the "Graphics Quality" option to medium
    3. Under adv graphics disable the shadow settings and post process
    4. Open the 'troubleshoot' section and put "Engine Speed" down to medium
    5. Exit the game client and restart it, so it saves and applies the settings

    I did this with my macbook yesterday and played 2 straight hours including 2 of the Dol Guldur skirmishes without a single crash. The night before crashed every hour or so just faming pipeweed. I haven’t had the opportunity to try these settings on the iMac just yet. I’ll report back soon. The engine speed thing was something I had never thought to try…not exactly sure what that does, but couldn’t tell one bit of difference in game play.
    Very interesting. First report I've seen of recommendations from Turbine support. I'll give them a try myself and see what happens.
    BTW, Step 5 is VERY important. Most folks ignore that issue --- many settings are only applied when the game is launched! (Despite the implications of in-game adjustments.)
    They are definitely only saved when the client quits NORMALLY. The plist file (UserPreferences.ini for the PC) is only written out at successful shutdown!

    The business with Graphics in Apple gear relates to Apple's "control" syndrome (aka Walled Garden).
    With all of the single-board computers, none of them have "graphics cards." They all have "graphics chips" which Apple purchases from the vendors and integrates into their "single-board" computer designs using the graphics vendor's API.
    The same thing is true of the software. The "drivers" are "written by Apple." That is to say, you can't simply download a driver from the Graphics Vendor's website and install it under OSX. Apple has taken the Driver Code which they licensed from the Graphics Vendor along with the Chipsets and integrated that software into OSX.

    The implication being -- the issues of data transfer to and from the chip, are up to Apple; they don't use a "standard interface" -- Is that good, bad, or indifferent I have no idea. The additional unknown is Apple's Licensing arrangement -- are they one time snap shots -- i.e. they get version X of the Chip, and the corresponding version X1 of the Driver Software -- or are they "ongoing updates" so that as the Graphics vendor updates the drivers, Apple has rights to X2 of the Driver Software to integrate into OSX "whenever Apple gets around to it."
    Bill Magill Mac Player Founder/Lifetimer
    Old Timers Guild - Gladden

    Val - Man Minstrel (90)
    Valalin - Dwarf Minsrel (69)
    Valamar - Dwarf Hunter (105)
    Valdicta - Dwarf RK (105)
    Valhad - Elf LM (65)
    Valkeeper - Elf RK (86)
    Valwood - Dwarf RK (80)

    Valhunt - Dwarf Hunter (70)
    Valanne - Beorning (92)
    Ninth - Man Warden (65)

    "Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
    All about the fun!"


  5. #5
    Hey guys, I just wanted to let you know, that I have been having the same issues with LOTRO on a 3.4 Ghz Quad Core i7, 8GB, SSD, with GeForce 675MX 1GB (a 2013 27" iMac). As best I can tell, it's a video memory issues. I do not think that LOTRO is releasing VMEM as it should, if you happen to notice, traveling to new areas seems to be most likely to trigger the app unexpectedly quitting. It's a kernel panic from OS X, as a result of the way Video Memory is being used... I think, I went over the console logs, but I am not that well versed in UNIX so, I cannot be exactly sure, but I will post parts of the console log that seem to be relevant, in case someone else that is reading this might be more knowledgable than myself (or perhaps turbine will make an effort to look into and resolve the issue for their Mac players). I also found an instance where OS X quit the app saying "thread 37787 caught Burning CPU" But below is the some excerpts from the Console Logs (too much info to post in it's entirety)


    BEGIN CONSOLE LOGS:
    pplication Specific Information:
    abort() called
    *** error for object 0x4ee89f24: incorrect checksum for freed object - object was probably modified after being freed.

    Crashed Thread: 0 MainThrd Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread

    Exception Type: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGBUS)
    Exception Codes: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE at 0x0000000000010023

    VM Regions Near 0x10023:
    __PAGEZERO 0000000000000000-0000000000001000 [ 4K] ---/--- SM=NUL /Users/USER/Library/Application Support/Steam/*/LotroLauncher.app/Contents/Resources/lotroclient.app/Contents/MacOS/lotroclient
    --> VM_ALLOCATE 0000000000001000-0000000000011000 [ 64K] ---/--- SM=NUL
    __TEXT 0000000000011000-000000000258f000 [ 37.5M] r-x/rwx SM=COW /Users/USER/Library/Application Support/Steam/*/LotroLauncher.app/Contents/Resources/lotroclient.app/Contents/MacOS/lotroclient

    Exception Type: EXC_BAD_ACCESS (SIGBUS)
    Exception Codes: KERN_PROTECTION_FAILURE at 0x0000000000070004

    VM Regions Near 0x70004:
    VM_ALLOCATE 0000000000001000-0000000000050000 [ 316K] ---/--- SM=NUL
    --> __TEXT 0000000000050000-00000000025ce000 [ 37.5M] r-x/rwx SM=COW /Users/USER/Library/Application Support/Steam/*/LotroLauncher.app/Contents/Resources/lotroclient.app/Contents/MacOS/lotroclient
    __DATA 00000000025ce000-0000000002adf000 [ 5188K] rw-/rwx SM=COW /Users/USER/Library/Application Support/Steam/*/LotroLauncher.app/Contents/Resources/lotroclient.app/Contents/MacOS/lotroclient

    M Regions Near 0xac:
    --> __PAGEZERO 0000000000000000-0000000000001000 [ 4K] ---/--- SM=NUL /Users/USER/Library/Application Support/Steam/*/LotroLauncher.app/Contents/Resources/lotroclient.app/Contents/MacOS/lotroclient
    VM_ALLOCATE 0000000000001000-000000000002c000 [ 172K] ---/--- SM=NUL

    Thread 0 Crashed:: MainThrd Dispatch queue: com.apple.main-thread
    0 com.apple.GeForceGLDriver 0x48317926 0x48000000 + 3242278
    1 com.apple.GeForceGLDriver 0x481ee371 0x48000000 + 2024305
    2 com.apple.GeForceGLDriver 0x483426ab 0x48000000 + 3417771
    3 libGPUSupportMercury.dylib 0x93624c09 gpumGetQueryInfo + 267
    4 com.apple.GeForceGLDriver 0x4823c968 gldGetQueryInfo + 74
    5 GLEngine 0x92d4c3df glEndQuery_Exec + 524
    6 libGL.dylib 0x9a72d21a glEndQuery + 31
    7 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x00936a4b 0x2c000 + 9480779
    8 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x007cc3b2 0x2c000 + 7996338
    9 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x00869de9 0x2c000 + 8642025
    10 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x00893cf9 0x2c000 + 8813817
    11 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x008da6d8 0x2c000 + 9103064
    12 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x008f587d 0x2c000 + 9214077
    13 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x008f6b15 0x2c000 + 9218837
    14 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x009821f2 0x2c000 + 9789938
    15 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x00946bb9 0x2c000 + 9546681
    16 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x00046f65 0x2c000 + 110437
    17 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x000440d8 0x2c000 + 98520
    18 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x00032ccc 0x2c000 + 27852
    19 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x00032a17 0x2c000 + 27159
    20 com.turbine.lotroclient 0x000329c5 0x2c000 + 27077


    END CONSOLE LOGS

    So, anyway, I do not think it is your hardware that is the issue, but rather LOTRO is not using your hardware correctly, this should be something addressed on the developers end.

    The "fix" from turbine is not a resolution, but rather a work around, this game should have absolutely no issue running un ULTRA on this hardware (and I run only on high). The spec requirements they offer are far too dated and General, modern gen processors do not even typically reach those clock speeds in commercial workstations.... and the clock speed is not an adequate of a representation of CPU performance as it once was, when procs were all single core (some else had mentioned that), and HAD to run at high clock speeds to achieve a fraction of the performance of modern chips.

    Quote Originally Posted by lorinuil View Post
    I play on 2 different macs:

    iMac
    27-inch, late 2013
    3.5 Ghz Intel Core i7
    16GB 1600MHZ DDR3
    NVIDIA GeGorce GTX 780M 4096 MB
    OS X 10.9.1

    and

    MacBook Pro
    13-inch, Mid 2012
    2.9 GHz Intel Core i7
    8GB 1600 MHz DDR3
    Intel HD Graphics 4000 1024 MB
    OS X 10.9.1

    Yesterday I was playing with my daughter on the iMac and myself on the Macbook Pro, in a fellowship exploring Ered Luin. We were playing the same content, she was playing a loremaster and I was playing a guardian. We were playing on the same network, one room apart. The iMac is hardwired with Ethernet cable, the notebook was on the same network but on wifi. Both were set with the same graphics settings: high.

    The iMac would crash about every 10 minutes, the Pro didn’t crash once. Finally I turned down the graphics on the iMac to Low and the crashing subsided.

    Any idea why the higher end computer with the fancy graphics card would be crashing so frequently vs the older slower Pro?
    Last edited by LordNikon; Mar 12 2014 at 11:50 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    2,725
    Quote Originally Posted by LordNikon View Post
    Hey guys, I just wanted to let you know, that I have been having the same issues with LOTRO on a 3.4 Ghz Quad Core i7, 8GB, SSD, with GeForce 675MX 1GB (a 2013 27" iMac). As best I can tell, it's a video memory issues. I do not think that LOTRO is releasing VMEM as it should, if you happen to notice, traveling to new areas seems to be most likely to trigger the app unexpectedly quitting. It's a kernel panic from OS X, as a result of the way Video Memory is being used... I think, I went over the console logs, but I am not that well versed in UNIX so, I cannot be exactly sure, but I will post parts of the console log that seem to be relevant, in case someone else that is reading this might be more knowledgable than myself (or perhaps turbine will make an effort to look into and resolve the issue for their Mac players). I also found an instance where OS X quit the app saying "thread 37787 caught Burning CPU" But below is the some excerpts from the Console Logs (too much info to post in it's entirety)

    . . .

    So, anyway, I do not think it is your hardware that is the issue, but rather LOTRO is not using your hardware correctly, this should be something addressed on the developers end.

    The "fix" from turbine is not a resolution, but rather a work around, this game should have absolutely no issue running un ULTRA on this hardware (and I run only on high). The spec requirements they offer are far too dated and General, modern gen processors do not even typically reach those clock speeds in commercial workstations.... and the clock speed is not an adequate of a representation of CPU performance as it once was, when procs were all single core (some else had mentioned that), and HAD to run at high clock speeds to achieve a fraction of the performance of modern chips.
    I think were talking about the same thing here -- basically it has been "well known" that since Riders of Rohan, the LOTRO Client (PC and Mac) has had a "memory leak."

    Yes, the crashes can easily be triggered by crossing "land blocks" or entering/leaving "transitions" (those gold star gateways or swift travel).

    What does make this more complex is that we are talking about two different "Graphics Systems" -- since I do not have a strong graphics background, I don't know exactly all that implies. However, by definition, the Mac Client is OpenGL, and the PC Client is DX.
    How the DX (the original) Graphics Data is translated into OpenGL I/we don't know.

    Graphics Memory is a hybrid between main-memory and on-the-card memory. Minimally it is a two-step process. Load from Disk to Main Memory; load from Main Memory onto the Graphics Card. Then after the image is "drawn" it has to be displayed. Apple and OSX "complicate" this with their "single board," "single OS" structure. (I.e. no third Party Graphics Drivers are involved.)

    For their part, Turbine has found that it is possible to "alleviate" but not necessarily eliminate, crashes when crossing Land Blocks. Why? They haven't bothered to share that information with the player community.

    But in the end, because Turbine/LOTRO is pushing the edges of graphics technology, there are "performance" issues which relate to each different hardware configuration.
    "Optimizations" are quite different from "Maximizations" for each different set of hardware. Generally speaking, one Optimizes performance across a range of "things," while one Maximizes performance for a very specific thing. However, the line between Optimize and Maximize is both thin and fuzzy -- and usually found only by trial and error.

    And on top of all this is the cavalier use of warm and fuzzy but completely imprecise terms such as "High," "Low," "Ultra," etc. These terms have zero "Technical" meaning. Their meanings are subjective and mean very different things to Hardware Developers, Software Developers, Sophisticated Gaming-rig Players and "Best-Buy Players" -- let alone PC vs Mac.

    So, Yes, there is a memory issue, but also there are some issues related to hardware.

    Lol... as I'm writing this, I just remembered "yet another" parameter which makes a significant difference in system performance -- memory speed. i.e. how fast, not how big, the memory chips are!
    Bill Magill Mac Player Founder/Lifetimer
    Old Timers Guild - Gladden

    Val - Man Minstrel (90)
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    Valkeeper - Elf RK (86)
    Valwood - Dwarf RK (80)

    Valhunt - Dwarf Hunter (70)
    Valanne - Beorning (92)
    Ninth - Man Warden (65)

    "Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
    All about the fun!"


  7. #7
    Having just upgraded my memory from 6gb to 14gb recently the crashes have been much less frequent.
    I'm not in Rohan yet were I got most crashes on my last run through so it's not a definitive solution.
    If you are short on memory 6gb on my mac pro was about the lower limit, upgrading may help. It will also help with any other work you do on your machine.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stniuk View Post
    Having just upgraded my memory from 6gb to 14gb recently the crashes have been much less frequent.
    I'm not in Rohan yet were I got most crashes on my last run through so it's not a definitive solution.
    If you are short on memory 6gb on my mac pro was about the lower limit, upgrading may help. It will also help with any other work you do on your machine.
    The amount of memory "needed" is directly related to what else is active at the same time. LOTRO itself CANNOT address more than 4GB -- it's only a 32bit application. However, all the other stuff you have running -- mail/safari/messages etc. Those things you never think about; chew up memory and other resources. Safari can be particularly nasty if you have a Flash Plugin enabled.

    I have often used activity monitor and been surprised to discover the Safari Flash Plugin running even though Safari itself is not.

    Recently I have noticed a thing called "com.apple.IconServicesAge nt" chewing up resources -- 2.63GB of Virtual Memory!

    This seems to be a "current issue" on various Apple Forums. Nobody seems to know what or why it is.

    We know less about Apple than we know about Turbine -- but it appears that Apple is optimizing everything for extended Battery Life AND "fast recovery from sleep" (cacheing).
    Both optimizations are probably othaganal to an optimal Gaming platform.
    Bill Magill Mac Player Founder/Lifetimer
    Old Timers Guild - Gladden

    Val - Man Minstrel (90)
    Valalin - Dwarf Minsrel (69)
    Valamar - Dwarf Hunter (105)
    Valdicta - Dwarf RK (105)
    Valhad - Elf LM (65)
    Valkeeper - Elf RK (86)
    Valwood - Dwarf RK (80)

    Valhunt - Dwarf Hunter (70)
    Valanne - Beorning (92)
    Ninth - Man Warden (65)

    "Laid back, not so serious, no drama.
    All about the fun!"


 

 

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