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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillGore81 View Post
    Pvmp has steadily gone downhill with each update and expansion since MoM. The only positive thing the "pvp" dev has said was that defiler healing was a top priority then retracted that into saying "well... maybe it'll get changed"... and that gives you hope? That ship has sailed... into the west.
    No catapults this time ?

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by KillGore81 View Post
    Pvmp has steadily gone downhill with each update and expansion since MoM. The only positive thing the "pvp" dev has said was that defiler healing was a top priority then retracted that into saying "well... maybe it'll get changed"... and that gives you hope? That ship has sailed... into the west.
    Yes, it does, oddly enough. In context, its very much a good thing. Defiler is a huge issue, but it's not the only one, so I can only hope (and I do) that if it's not fixed first there are bigger and better fixes planned and enacted.

    The hope is, well... I hope I'm right! ^_^
    Cheiftain Ashtu-1, Defiler of Landroval
    Master Guardsman Jythro, Captain of Silverlode

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Disagree. Mightily.

    This is very revisionist. Mirkwood had fantastic pvp, especially after they changed Conjunction/FM mechanics vs players.
    Early RoR pvp was actually quite good as well apart from a few mechanics (power drains), and numbers issues.

    Late RoR could have been fantastic as well if they had thought to apply some fixes we just recently got for the captain (SOTD sets incoming damage reduction, instead of adding 75% on top of current damage reduction) to Rk skills (so their 50% bubble wouldn't have been 80% with audacity, but rather 50% total). That would have made group combat much better overall.

    I think we can trace a lot of problems to the stat system changes on freepside in RoI, and that creeps never really were updated to reflect this new reality. That's a big chunk of what's being TRIED for U13. And once they get some of the PVE stuff nailed down (the mitigation curve for tactical mitigation is VERY MUCH in need of change with how easy it is to cap), there will be some real trade-off to pushing physical mitigation rating at the cost of tactical.

    We're a long way off from where we could be, and it will be nice to see some steps taken in the right direction.
    If you read what KillGore-catapult-81 said, is that it's gone downhill since MoM, and it has. Are you in all seriousness saying you think any expansion brought pvmp up on a higher level than it was in it's previous expansion? Or even managed to keep it on par? In general every expansion has left the pvmp'ers worse of than they were. That is by definition going downhill.
    I'm one of those that liked early MoM, but everything since and incl. Mirkwood has been pretty dang downhill. I'll give you the Conjunction change was an improvement as there have been other (extremely rare) tidbits of goodies thrown at us over the years, but overall, taking 5 steps back for each 1 forward rarely makes for heading in the right direction.
    [IMG]https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/547875_10152075720742701_46971757_n.jpg[/IMG]
    66 Maggot Street, Grothum, Arador's End, Ettenmoors.
    Laurelin/Landroval/Brandywine.

  4. #104

    defiler changes

    I agree with all the defiler changes and hope they can be added , but to see the hopes of healing being maybe not up scaled has put a the defiler community in a sad place

    we seem to get nerfed each update , due to freeps QQ oh these flies drain our power to much ( now u cant get rid of power on freep,)

    oh blight damage is too much per tick and too big area like lm tar ( now we do like 57 per tick on a freep really that's some good damage there isn't it!!! )

    but I hope you can look into the defiler and squeeze what u can , blight damage would be nice to add to all the other stuff please , I like to log on and enjoy my class not be a spectator!
    Cronik aka MrMatty - R15 defiler

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by poxnoxious View Post
    If you read what KillGore-catapult-81 said, is that it's gone downhill since MoM, and it has. Are you in all seriousness saying you think any expansion brought pvmp up on a higher level than it was in it's previous expansion? Or even managed to keep it on par? In general every expansion has left the pvmp'ers worse of than they were. That is by definition going downhill.
    I'm one of those that liked early MoM, but everything since and incl. Mirkwood has been pretty dang downhill. I'll give you the Conjunction change was an improvement as there have been other (extremely rare) tidbits of goodies thrown at us over the years, but overall, taking 5 steps back for each 1 forward rarely makes for heading in the right direction.
    Just because Sezneg disagrees with KillGore's post doesn't inherently mean he didn't read it. To believe so is the height of arrogance. I personally thought RoR was a huge improvement over RoI. Separating Creep skills from traits, getting new ones, adding new mechanics, making the Delving actually worth entering and bringing factional balance closer than it had been for months are all great changes. Sure, not everything they did worked, and the balance went to heck again after U10, but even then I could always cope by thinking, "Hey, at least it's not Rise of Isengard."

  6. #106
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    While it's refreshing to see some developer/community interaction (and most of the players here have kept the discussion mature too), what I've gleaned from this entire thread is that U13 will basically buff freeps (albeit in the form of a bug fix). Not very encouraging.

  7. #107
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    Totally agree with Pox and Killgore- I think those that have stuck with pvmp have just got used to Hobson's Choice over time, and found SOMETHING that isn't utterly terrible development-wise, hey, that's why we stick around & still play it...but overall, no, inconsistent tinkering over the years doesn't equate to something that would seriously challenge Pox and Killgore's statements, imho. I would add that it would be similarly revisionist to claim otherwise. Hey, Sezneg's own opinion here highlights his own engagement with having found SOMETHING good - for him - over time. I should add that I'm all for Jinjaah's more involved recent communications about what is actually going on and currently "planned" and might be prepared to invest a sliver of hope. The odd player being an apologist for the way things have gone over the reality of years of playtime won't convince people to invest further, action and real consistently applied change for the better will.
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Just have to laugh with an honest disagreement in opinion making me an "apologist".
    It is not the first time and it won't be the last that many of your posts take on the look of repeat job applications for Turbine whilst quite often rubbishing everyone else's stated experiences. Just like you are doing now - and above. QED. It doesn't help others either to try to see your point of view at all, that's basic common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Obviously you weren't on the HD beta forums in the monsterplay section... or even the bullroarer forums while U10 was in testing (not even to mention the RoI beta forums).
    Wrong but even had you been correct, that would not have invalidated my or anyone else's opinion on the point to which I replied btw. Again, basic stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Killgore's statement was blanket, and lacked any nuance.
    Ahem, that's where you are missing the point entirely. Reread. Looking for nuances in a statement which by its nature addresses a very broad period of time, is pointless precisely because he and Pox, I, (and scores of others on this forum) are addressing that period as a whole and not picking out periodic exceptions because they are precisely that and not consistent- the entire point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    Longtime MMO players have a very real tendency towards rose tinted nostalgia..... I've been dealing with this "every patch makes things worse" nonsense since I was in Ultima Online in 1998.
    Wouldn't picking out "moments" from the entire history of the pvmp portion of the game be exactly that - the former part of your reply? It's not a problem for me what your opinion is, but I think it's a problem for the community to have silly statements like that levelled against them. Helpful? No!

    Enjoy your game. Some of us remain of the opinion that there has been a consistent and steady decline due to lack of attention to pvmp in this game. I'm happy for you that you think it's not the case. But I remain unlikely to ask your opinion about lotro pvmp, and am quite sure that suits you fine. Have a good day.
    [CENTER][URL="http://s1322.photobucket.com/user/Jingoism5/media/80624df1-2db7-463e-8896-cfa115eef487_zps9921a0cc.jpg.html"][IMG]http://i1322.photobucket.com/albums/u578/Jingoism5/80624df1-2db7-463e-8896-cfa115eef487_zps9921a0cc.jpg[/IMG][/URL]
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  9. #109
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    Could you quit biting eachother
    Captains are clearly made of sunshine and rainbows. I thought that much was obvious. - RockX

    Essie - Tr.

  10. #110
    blah blah blah - you guys sound like bickering old ladies now.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by germcell View Post
    blah blah blah - you guys sound like bickering old ladies now.
    Agreed. Deleting posts to keep this on the topic so we don't lose the thread.


    Even my Signature is trolling!

  12. #112
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    Jinjaah,

    I'd like to know what the time limit considered on the pass for the freeps will be. I certainly feel discouraged that it may still require me to maintain a VIP subscription even though there's few other features right now that require me to continue to have one. Sounds like it defeats the purpose of downgrading without knowing the details of what the pass includes.


    Secondly I did not get a confirmation on my last private message to you for an issue I felt that needed to be addressed by the team. I'd rather not voice it in public because it can make an impact on current playstyles for classes and just want to have the reassurance that my concern received acknowledgement on your end. Sorry to put you on the spot like this but you've been good to answer folks in the thread thus far and felt neglected with attention.

    Thanks!


  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Familiarity View Post
    an issue I felt that needed to be addressed by the team. I'd rather not voice it in public because it can make an impact on current playstyles for classes
    I don't understand why something like that should be secretive. No community consensus?
    Its not like Lotro was made for you, and you only.


    If something ends up in update 13 that is unexpected ..... like a reaver nerf, im blaming you Fami=p
    Last edited by Wilfrum; Mar 01 2014 at 05:54 PM.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfrum View Post
    I don't understand why something like that should be secretive. No community consensus?
    Its not like Lotro was made for you, and you only.


    If something ends up in update 13 that is unexpected ..... like a reaver nerf, im blaming you Fami=p

    It's more of a tactic to get Jinjaah to respond to me admittedly. And you got me. OP reaver dps qq.


  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilfrum View Post
    I don't understand why something like that should be secretive. No community consensus?
    Its not like Lotro was made for you, and you only.
    If it's report of a possible/actual exploit (which should be /bugged) then posting in the forums would be a no-no. So it's a secret except to those that know it.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  16. #116
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    On the topic of keeps, I think it can be universally agreed that keep NPCs are far too weak. Boiling oil hitting for 500, while keep NPC's are laughable. Tyrants are getting melted by freep raids in under 20s, while being tankable by any freep class. Creeps can kill a CG with 1 healer. Tyrants and Captain generals should hit hard, and be difficult to kill. Perhaps a buff that increases their potency based on the number of friendly players nearby?

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    On the topic of keeps, I think it can be universally agreed that keep NPCs are far too weak. Boiling oil hitting for 500, while keep NPC's are laughable. Tyrants are getting melted by freep raids in under 20s, while being tankable by any freep class. Creeps can kill a CG with 1 healer. Tyrants and Captain generals should hit hard, and be difficult to kill. Perhaps a buff that increases their potency based on the number of friendly players nearby?
    Reavers can solo tr/lug/or
    Edited due to violations of the community guidelines.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Valamar View Post
    If these are AFK for extended periods of time, then that is a bug in the AFK timers.
    Which I know do exist, as I see random AFK characters standing around for hours, in different parts of the world, not just the Moors.

    /bug them!
    On creepside they're known as spies.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    If it's report of a possible/actual exploit (which should be /bugged) then posting in the forums would be a no-no. So it's a secret except to those that know it.
    Okay, makes sense. Point taken.

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    Perhaps a buff that increases their potency based on the number of friendly players nearby?
    That's actually a really good idea. I think though it would cause lag, and it would become difficult when opposition rushes in. However, I firmly believe you should not be able to flip a keep with all of its NPCs on you, and opposition as big or bigger than your group/raid.

    So in conclusion, if they could find a way to do this and keep lag to a minimum I would 100% support it.

    "Thinking you can do something is confidence; doing something is competence"
    Professorkeating, r12 War-Leader/ Ryzer, r13 Captain
    Skill and Valour, Landroval



  21. #121
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    So, when is U13 coming out?
    Captains are clearly made of sunshine and rainbows. I thought that much was obvious. - RockX

    Essie - Tr.

  22. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - The new PVMP damage types are now properly passing through physical mitigation. This means that the additional mitigation tacked onto audacity has been removed.
    So classes like guards and captains are becoming more survivable than they are now and classes like hunters and RKs are getting squishier. For testing purposes, once the change is done please have one of the testers roll a rank 15 defiler and have them attempt to kill a AFK guard or captain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - We did some tweaks some things within the Ettenmoors like increasing the damage from the murder holes in TA from 500 common damage to % health.
    Ok. I guess taking additional damage when running into an enemy keep is not a bad thing. Assuming the time required to make the change isnt high, it is a good change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - We did some stat adjustments to the Creep core virtues (on the character panel, the categories with squares next to them). Most of these have never been updated since Monsterplay came into existence, which was part of what caused such a discrepancy in stats between freeps and creeps.
    Good change. Thanks. I am hoping that it is not a fixed value change across all creep classes. At the moment all freep classes have the ability to play solo and succeed. Unforunately 2 of the creep classes (defiler and WL) have near zero ability to succeed in solo play (to kill something by themselves). Since creep healers are forced to group or to gold tag for infamy this ends up creating large creep groups and reduces solo fights.

    The brawlers stance introduction for WL was a step in the right direction however it fell significantly short when it comes to producing the desired result. The only time a WL or defiler will kill anything solo is if the freep decides to stay till the end of the fight (it is going to be a long and boring stay).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    - Trying to clear out a lot of bugs that have been lingering for far too long on the creep side.
    Thank you. I hope the release notes will specify which bugs were fixed.

    One additional question if you wouldn't mind answering :

    In your opinion how many DPS toons should be required to kill a healer ?

    In the last few updates this ratio has been 1:1 for freeps (meaning it takes 1 freep to kill 1 creep healer regardless of whether the creep healer plays well or not) and 3+ for creeps (3+ creeps to kill one freep healer assuming the freep healer is decent). If a group of 12 freeps have 2 minstrels healing, then that is pretty much game over for creeps. In small group fights (3 or less), a group with one blue traited minstrel is nearly impossible to kill if the healer has full audacity. I am fairly certain that there is no PVE content that needs the kind of HPS that we can currently generate. Fixing this ratio alone will most likely bring balance to the moors. Since I am fairly certain that freep HPS values wont be adjusted, my suggested fix would be to give more incoming/outgoing healing reduction debuff abilities to creep classes.
    Last edited by AceDwarf; Mar 02 2014 at 09:57 PM.
    Zedin - Arkenstone

  23. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjaah View Post
    Some things I would still like to do is a damage / healing pass if time permits.

    -Jinjaah
    (Disclaimer: I'm not AT ALL saying Defilers don't need heals, Spiders don't need more deeps, or that the Moors isn't ridiculous atm.)

    This needs to be part of something bigger, Jinjaah.

    Anything you implement for the Moors is likely to become obsolete or OP and need to be changed or completely scrapped/replaced when someone finally decides to take a look at PvE balance, a large damage pass like this would just be wasted resources.

    Please push for the full-on balancing of Freeps to PvE. Mobs die too fast, many classes can fill tank roles and lots of classes have enough self heals to not require any form of healing at all.

    All classes should get a closer look, and maybe even a bit closer than just their survivability and DPS potential... in some cases "specialization" has kinda.. failed.

    Blue burg can toss out 1m Dazes left and right (no chance involved, 100% each time), but yellow burg is the only line who can perma-riddle. What?

    Yellow mini can't have Rally....? Pretty sure I've been rezzed by a yellow Cappy... and that isn't even a "support" line like PoS! What?

    All LM Dazes last the exact same duration with same cooldown? What? Did it occur to anybody that the LM class can now stack Shatter Arms for +10% incoming melee and ranged damage to a mob for 30s, dismiss and resummon bear, SA, dismiss and resummon bear, SA. Just like the Nature Spirit heal that got fixed --- but an LM can still wear Blue Hytbold armor and do the exact same thing, just use its Flashing Flank skill, WF, dismiss and resummon and repeat. Also, an LM can start any fight with Spirit pet out (or pull it out at any time) and apply a 30s 5% damage dealt morale return. On every single boss fight in the game. And they can keep them up at the same time, and they don't even need to have any points spent in their pet line. Oh, almost forgot the Bog Lurker's 30s duration +5% incoming ranged criti


    ....but back to the damage/healing point. The overall "permanent" (you know what I mean) hot-spot for landscape and instance balance needs to be found before there is really any point to making large damage/healing changes to the Moors. That doesn't mean Defilers don't need more heals - they do. Spiders could definitely use some DPS help too.

    And I'm not a "PvMP is a single digit" kinda guy, either.

    I just can't see the logic in the separation of developers into "departments" who don't know what is going on in "other departments" and aren't all on the same page/working together.

    You as a class developer should know exactly where the other classes are per traitline in terms of their role, their DPS/survivability/utility and how each class you were designing compared. If I were in your shoes, I would have screamed in terror at trying to do keep the "feel" of the classes, and the "feel" of the traitlines, all while making them fit into trait trees AND (seemingly at least) with so little knowledge of what the other developers of both the other classes AND the content your "new" classes were going to be attempting (or not) were doing!

    I appreciate the changes, there is room for improvement and that is why I speak up about it.

    One thing that I think would be a healthy addition would be, a developer who isn't "X class dev", but a developer who oversees the various roles of all the classes, and works with the class devs to ensure that the classes and traitlines are in the right place.

    I'd love a "role dev" to bring all the various class devs together to work on finding the right DPS balance between traitlines (all are obviously designed for combat) specializing in DPS. That same dev could do wonders looking at Support - yellow Burgs need more CC, blue needs less. Yellow LMs need more CC, blue and red need less. A "role" developer taking all classes into consideration would see this. I bet that dev would also support Rally for yellow minstrels, better ST DPS for red champs than for yellow, and several other things that are pretty well covered on the various class forums (and the HD beta forums).


    Overall, I would love to see LOTRO become the game that everyone wants to play. All instances scaled to level cap, offering balance that provides sufficient challenge and itemization that offers equivalent rewards. Classes each having valid roles, and their specialized traitlines actually performing said roles better than non-spec'd lines/classes.

    Once there is a somewhat levelled playing field for PvE, then you take a look at the (SURELY) reduced Freep damage - that is BALANCED to the games PVE! - you can make broader changes to creep classes and stats that won't be "a band aid".

    Please, push for someone to bring it all together. It has to eventually come to pass, do it now while you aren't working on much else. This is far higher on the scale of relevant to LOTROs continuance than any catapult will ever be.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Absolteuly. We have several times. Mulitboxing is not a violation of any of our policies. In fact, the ability to run multiple clients is built into the game if you want to do it on a single machine instead of using several PCs. There is no plan to change this policy.
    o.O

    Sounds like a strange way to play this game..
    Main character: Manegarm

    Hear me bark!

  25. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Ithrien View Post
    (Disclaimer: I'm not AT ALL saying Defilers don't need heals, Spiders don't need more deeps, or that the Moors isn't ridiculous atm.)

    This needs to be part of something bigger, Jinjaah.

    Anything you implement for the Moors is likely to become obsolete or OP and need to be changed or completely scrapped/replaced when someone finally decides to take a look at PvE balance, a large damage pass like this would just be wasted resources.

    Please push for the full-on balancing of Freeps to PvE. Mobs die too fast, many classes can fill tank roles and lots of classes have enough self heals to not require any form of healing at all.

    All classes should get a closer look, and maybe even a bit closer than just their survivability and DPS potential... in some cases "specialization" has kinda.. failed.

    Blue burg can toss out 1m Dazes left and right (no chance involved, 100% each time), but yellow burg is the only line who can perma-riddle. What?

    Yellow mini can't have Rally....? Pretty sure I've been rezzed by a yellow Cappy... and that isn't even a "support" line like PoS! What?

    All LM Dazes last the exact same duration with same cooldown? What? Did it occur to anybody that the LM class can now stack Shatter Arms for +10% incoming melee and ranged damage to a mob for 30s, dismiss and resummon bear, SA, dismiss and resummon bear, SA. Just like the Nature Spirit heal that got fixed --- but an LM can still wear Blue Hytbold armor and do the exact same thing, just use its Flashing Flank skill, WF, dismiss and resummon and repeat. Also, an LM can start any fight with Spirit pet out (or pull it out at any time) and apply a 30s 5% damage dealt morale return. On every single boss fight in the game. And they can keep them up at the same time, and they don't even need to have any points spent in their pet line. Oh, almost forgot the Bog Lurker's 30s duration +5% incoming ranged criti


    ....but back to the damage/healing point. The overall "permanent" (you know what I mean) hot-spot for landscape and instance balance needs to be found before there is really any point to making large damage/healing changes to the Moors. That doesn't mean Defilers don't need more heals - they do. Spiders could definitely use some DPS help too.

    And I'm not a "PvMP is a single digit" kinda guy, either.

    I just can't see the logic in the separation of developers into "departments" who don't know what is going on in "other departments" and aren't all on the same page/working together.

    You as a class developer should know exactly where the other classes are per traitline in terms of their role, their DPS/survivability/utility and how each class you were designing compared. If I were in your shoes, I would have screamed in terror at trying to do keep the "feel" of the classes, and the "feel" of the traitlines, all while making them fit into trait trees AND (seemingly at least) with so little knowledge of what the other developers of both the other classes AND the content your "new" classes were going to be attempting (or not) were doing!

    I appreciate the changes, there is room for improvement and that is why I speak up about it.

    One thing that I think would be a healthy addition would be, a developer who isn't "X class dev", but a developer who oversees the various roles of all the classes, and works with the class devs to ensure that the classes and traitlines are in the right place.

    I'd love a "role dev" to bring all the various class devs together to work on finding the right DPS balance between traitlines (all are obviously designed for combat) specializing in DPS. That same dev could do wonders looking at Support - yellow Burgs need more CC, blue needs less. Yellow LMs need more CC, blue and red need less. A "role" developer taking all classes into consideration would see this. I bet that dev would also support Rally for yellow minstrels, better ST DPS for red champs than for yellow, and several other things that are pretty well covered on the various class forums (and the HD beta forums).


    Overall, I would love to see LOTRO become the game that everyone wants to play. All instances scaled to level cap, offering balance that provides sufficient challenge and itemization that offers equivalent rewards. Classes each having valid roles, and their specialized traitlines actually performing said roles better than non-spec'd lines/classes.

    Once there is a somewhat levelled playing field for PvE, then you take a look at the (SURELY) reduced Freep damage - that is BALANCED to the games PVE! - you can make broader changes to creep classes and stats that won't be "a band aid".

    Please, push for someone to bring it all together. It has to eventually come to pass, do it now while you aren't working on much else. This is far higher on the scale of relevant to LOTROs continuance than any catapult will ever be.
    What u basicly saying is that the trait trees fail and ofc they do but freep classes are just broken in general. I made another mincer on a different server and just 1 shotted all landscape mobs in the archet intro without any skill points used.. The game broke after L75 when stats were uncapped and just go worse with each expansion. The Devs were like kids in a sweet shop coming up with the trait trees and their bosses just let it all pass. Maybe they thought if they made each class stupid OP and gave stupid OP set bonuses to BB jewelry, people would love it and think everythings awesome. Instead everything is pointless faceroll, including PVP and people are leaving game in droves.

    What kind of a dev comes up with Exemplar and other traits for Y captain ...
    What kind of a dev comes up with Bolster for mincer healing the whole FS pretty much another bolster for free - why would u need inspire anymore - the buff??? Triumphant Spirit on 45s CD guaranteed to crit with CoI. Thats like the old Uruk heal on 45s CD (altho a working version)

    To fix this rubbish would need a revert to old traits or complete revamp of trees and start again. How on earth can instance Devs (not sure there are any anymore) make relevant content to fight this altho not sure we getting new instances anyway so may be a moo point

    As u can imagine, if this ever gets "fixed" it will take ages - any u expect creeps to go without this sticking plaster u mentioned in the meantime??? We both agree EVERYTHING needs looking at as a whole and some "Boss" needs to keep every Dev in line to keep a balance for PVE and PVP but if nothing is done now for creeps, they will all leave. Promises (usually not even that, just hope for common sense) of balance have been heard before. We've been in this situation for years now - we can just be farmed for the next yr but in the next major update we gonna be balanced when in fact it gets worse.

    Good luck finding creeps when ESO arrives if things arent improved (i wont even play eso myself - thinking WOW or Wildstar when arrives)
    Bettee, Flaps
    The Mellowship
    .

 

 
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