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  1. #1

    Better tutorials instead of simplifying the game

    Back in the older days, there were a lot of fellowship quests. Casual players found it hard, or didn't have enough time, to find a group to complete those, so the call for more solo-friendly content came. Turbine listened, and made a lot of parts easier. The point however is that player skills were often designed for group play, players didnt get to use them as much in solo play, which in turn has as result players can get to higher levels, gaining skills over time, without actually getting to appreciate the value of those skills. As of RoR, leveling to 85 was more of a grind than a challenge, and a lot of skills are hardly required. Since many players had skills, they would never use in a solo-designed context, they became useless for the majority of the players. This in turn was a motivation for the class changes, which removed a lot of utility from a lot of classes.

    However, would it really be necessary to remove useful utility skills and complexity from the game? I don't think so, difficulty is mainly perceived based on the player's skill, so if you want to keep complexity without players complaining, you have to get some progression in actual player skill, there are several ways to do this:
    - Clear descriptions for systems, the mechanics of the game should not be a secret, or hard to figure out. This has actually improved, but it can get an extra step.
    - Provide tutorial info in a more subtle way, those pop-up boxes generally either distract or get clicked away, use npcs to explain something, put them in quest dialogs as well.
    - Useful, clear tutorials (important, allow an OPT-OUT) of more advanced techniques.

    For example:
    Make a tutorial instance for LMs after they get blinding flash which teaches players to daze-lock mobs, this can be really easily done by something like:
    Create 2 circles (A and B) with 5m radius, put a (signature?) mob in each of them (mobA and mobB, and the player in one of them (A)). Than require the player to kill mobA before mobB and keep mobB in it's circle. With a clear explanation about the strategy of daze-locking.

    Another tutorial can learn players about kiting (useful for any class I'd say), probably something like kill mobA that is 40% slowed without getting hit at all (it'd only work well on a ranged class really, but you get what I mean), again with an explanation.

    Besides tutorial instances, there could also be some regular quests with tutorial elements, like a NPC asking a LM to debuff a certain mob.

    Of course there shouldn't be tutorials for everything, but I'm sure it'll make the game easier for players without actually reducing complexity and difficulty at all, in fact, it might actually be possible to ramp it up in several places. Careful and good placement of good tutorials (short and simple, shouldn't take much more than a minute to explain a technique), could direct casual players to a higher point of skill, allowing a nice progression in actual difficulty.
    ~Dwarrowdelf (Bomb Squad)~
    Freeps: Vulcwen (R8 LM), Vulciel (lvl 100 RK), and some lower level alts.. Creep: Shadowweb (R6 spider)
    My ideas on how LM should be: [url=https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?543323-LM-revamp-reconsidered]LM Revamp reconsidered[/url]

  2. #2
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    Good idea, will give the now-obsolete trainers a new purpose.
    Mildford - R9 Hunter • Support - R7 LM
    The Storm Crusaders (RIP) • Gladden

  3. #3
    I do not how common this issue is. I know a number of players that are not interested in performing certain actions in combat. Some examples being:

    1) Teaching some people how to kite a mob with two Hunters that are well apart. Make the mob ping pong between them. Worse case. One Hunter runs around until the mob decides enough of being plinked by the non running Hunters. They hate this technique. They want to plant their feet. Dig in. Shoot it to death on the way in. Failing that. A combination of melee and bow shots to finish the battle at knife fight range.

    2) Other friends of mine. I tried teaching them the usefulness of traps as a Hunter. Nope. Pass me the grenade launcher. I want to nuke stuff.

    3) Same kind of problem with a Lore Master. Not using crowd control like blinding flash. That is a waste of valuable game play time. It needs to die. I want more DPS skills. Or DPS skills that hit harder.

    4) Fellowship content for some my friends. No go. They only do solo content. Others are husband and wife. They will accept duo content.

    Another common problem is that many of them are playing the game to relax and have fun. They are not interested in having more complicated dynamics. All this kiting, crowd control, removal of diseases, buffing people is too much mental strain. They want KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) functionality. More skills especially if they have limited general use - are not wanted.

    I am not convinced that tutorials which are costly for Turbine to create are going to be appreciated or help. I suspect what is going to happen is that customers are going to request a skip these tutorials option. They want to get to the full public world where they can start playing their character for real. Plus playing their character the way they want to play it. I can hear the complaints about ""Why is Turbine making me use Blinding Flash?" I am not a crowd controller. I blow things up.

    There was at least one thread about a Lore Master player that was upset because some of the trait points come from using a Pet. Apparently this customer had never summoned a pet. Let alone used a pet to attack anything. I remember this kind of issue for my Champion. At one point Champions could use shields. There used to be a class deed that required that you block a number of blows with your shield. I got a shield. Went out to Evendim. Bare knuckle punched a grey deer. Read a book while standing there with my shield up until it went yellow for the day. I would leave. Next day I would be back out looking for another deer to punch.

    Final Thoughts:

    Many people do not use these techniques because they do not play their character that way. They are not interested in learning new tricks.

    The Helms Deep class changes are really helpful for the customers that want a a focused game play versus a complicated jack of all trades. They can pick a heavy DPS line such as Red. Somebody like me can go Yellow on their Hunter - have a blast setting traps, decoys, running around in circles doing all kinds of fancy stuff. I do not get much opportunity for fancy stuff. The opposition dies so quick. It is not hard to take 20,000 morale off a mob with trap bleeds. The mob is standing there beating on the decoy while I am way back shooting away.
    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    I do not how common this issue is. I know a number of players that are not interested in performing certain actions in combat. Some examples being:

    1) Teaching some people how to kite a mob with two Hunters that are well apart. Make the mob ping pong between them. Worse case. One Hunter runs around until the mob decides enough of being plinked by the non running Hunters. They hate this technique. They want to plant their feet. Dig in. Shoot it to death on the way in. Failing that. A combination of melee and bow shots to finish the battle at knife fight range.
    Tutorials should be solo, to make them fast to do, combination of tactics should not be explained.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    2) Other friends of mine. I tried teaching them the usefulness of traps as a Hunter. Nope. Pass me the grenade launcher. I want to nuke stuff.
    Did you try to teach it to them as soon as they got the skill?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    3) Same kind of problem with a Lore Master. Not using crowd control like blinding flash. That is a waste of valuable game play time. It needs to die. I want more DPS skills. Or DPS skills that hit harder.
    Here is kinda the problem, and the tutorials should help with it. You have normal mobs, and dps is enough for them, and that's good. Once in a while, a quest sends you to a signature/elite. Those should hit hard enough to actually require cc/debuffs. Without the tutorials, they would be classified as small fellowship quests, with it, it should become quite easy. Since higher skill + higher difficulty generally is more fun than low skill + low difficuly, the game can become more fun due to these things.

    I'll reference a different game, Zelda Twilight Princess, which introduces new skills with a tutorial, and than have enemies requiring these skills to defeat. This is a great example of a good player-skill progression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    4) Fellowship content for some my friends. No go. They only do solo content. Others are husband and wife. They will accept duo content.

    Another common problem is that many of them are playing the game to relax and have fun. They are not interested in having more complicated dynamics. All this kiting, crowd control, removal of diseases, buffing people is too much mental strain. They want KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) functionality. More skills especially if they have limited general use - are not wanted.
    If you introduce it all at the same time, and require it all at the same time, yes, it's too complicated. That's why of course you shouldn't, instead let players focus on only 1 of them. Important is that requiring skills help to provide the sense of danger, which makes the game more fun, and more lore-fitting.
    Ask a player to pot, kite and cc for the first time in 1 encounter (mostly group content) is too much to handle, which turns them off. If you introduce potting, and some levels later kiting, and a little later you get a player in that same encounter, they will find it a lot more fun, as it gives the feeling of a progression in player-skill rather than just your character, which in turn helps the connection between the player and the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    I am not convinced that tutorials which are costly for Turbine to create are going to be appreciated or help. I suspect what is going to happen is that customers are going to request a skip these tutorials option. They want to get to the full public world where they can start playing their character for real. Plus playing their character the way they want to play it. I can hear the complaints about ""Why is Turbine making me use Blinding Flash?" I am not a crowd controller. I blow things up.

    There was at least one thread about a Lore Master player that was upset because some of the trait points come from using a Pet. Apparently this customer had never summoned a pet. Let alone used a pet to attack anything. I remember this kind of issue for my Champion. At one point Champions could use shields. There used to be a class deed that required that you block a number of blows with your shield. I got a shield. Went out to Evendim. Bare knuckle punched a grey deer. Read a book while standing there with my shield up until it went yellow for the day. I would leave. Next day I would be back out looking for another deer to punch.
    Tutorials should be opt-out, but they should be so obvious that it's hard to miss them, further you should also be able to re-do the tutorials (in case you skipped them).
    Class deeds are a separate thing, they force you to not just try out something, but also keep doing that thing. Tutorials are only a try-out, and for learning purposes, without forcing a player to use the things they learned after it, but the player will not forget it, and perhaps find a use for it later on.

    About the cost part, I cannot judge for Turbine, nor can you really, unless you are an employee. Of course it would cost money to create things, but so does other changes. But if good tutorials help making the game more fun (if there is some place you need the skill), I think it'd be a good investment, which can mean more newer players get past the lvl 30 point (the pay-wall).

    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    Final Thoughts:

    Many people do not use these techniques because they do not play their character that way. They are not interested in learning new tricks.

    The Helms Deep class changes are really helpful for the customers that want a a focused game play versus a complicated jack of all trades. They can pick a heavy DPS line such as Red. Somebody like me can go Yellow on their Hunter - have a blast setting traps, decoys, running around in circles doing all kinds of fancy stuff. I do not get much opportunity for fancy stuff. The opposition dies so quick. It is not hard to take 20,000 morale off a mob with trap bleeds. The mob is standing there beating on the decoy while I am way back shooting away.
    I thought humans had a natural desire to learn, as long it's not enforced (hence the opt-out). If done right, learning those new tricks isn't any different from learning the games' controls. To do it right, you need to find sweet-spots for the moment to introduce the tricks, I don't think before lvl 6 (during the intro) is a good place, that's where players skill try to figure out how to control their character. When a player gets out of the intro, you can introduce some more info on the main mechanics of the class:
    Pets and flanking for LMs (start with explaining that your pet doesn't have to attack from the side to flank XD)
    Gambits for wardens, especially some way to help remembering them.
    Attunement management for RKs.
    Focus for hunters.

    I think the main reason players don't want to learn more combat-tricks, is because the combat isn't fun. These casual players than get enjoyment out of role-playing, some socializing, and a bit questing through the story. Than I'd say, make combat more fun (can be done with tutorials, if the challenge gets brought back), instead of facilitating these players to skip combat more, by giving them more dps.

    _______________________

    Quote Originally Posted by YamydeAragon View Post
    Tutorials are good enough. Nothing in the game is secret. Every item, skill, trait, buff, debuff & character have through explanations in the tooltips. The True Problems is that some playerschoose to skip the tutorials. They don't read the quest, tooltips, combat log & pay to get power level. So they never attempt to learn how to play they characters, they just want to be a horribly bad level cap toon.
    Isn't that a sign that the tutorials aren't good enough? The only good tutorial, is the very first one, which teaches the player the controls of the game.
    As I said earlier, the acces to information has improved indeed. But there is still a lot of:
    1. Inconsistency (Critical Multiplier and Critical Damage are both used, it's not clear whether they are the same or different things)
    2. Lack of information (what is the radius of Gust of Wind spreading for example)
    3. Lack of explaination (terms do not get explained a lot, so it's guessing what something actually does)
    4. Incorrect information (the tooltip for loyalty states something completely different from what it does)

    The 3rd problem was a motivation for the threat changes, but they also decided to remove complexity from it (removing all threat transfer, and even no-damage threat skills), instead of just making it more clear.
    Last edited by Vulcwen; Feb 22 2014 at 05:29 PM.
    ~Dwarrowdelf (Bomb Squad)~
    Freeps: Vulcwen (R8 LM), Vulciel (lvl 100 RK), and some lower level alts.. Creep: Shadowweb (R6 spider)
    My ideas on how LM should be: [url=https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?543323-LM-revamp-reconsidered]LM Revamp reconsidered[/url]

  5. #5
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    I think this is an interesting idea. We already have class quests at various levels, so what about using those to focus on teaching something related to the class? I think this would be a potentially useful substitute for class quests that only require turning in of drops that you can buy on the AH or skirmish camp, and those that are nothing more than chains of killing this and that mob that you're already killing in the area anyway. I agree they should be optional and nothing should be gated behind their completion.

  6. #6
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    Alabama
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    What some forget, sadly, is that combat is not the be all and end all of gameplay. For me, there is nothing you could do to make combat more fun. Combat is something I want to get done and done quickly, when combat is required. If that means using CC or pots, etc, then I'll use them. I also always approach an encounter with planning and I always think during one. Making combat take longer will not make it more fun. It'll just frustrate me, for I am one that despises a game handholding/patronizing me like that. I often wonder what it is about some that they can't engage their brains at all times. Oh well. Different strokes for different folks.
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
    "Do or do not. There is no try." -- Yoda
    On planet Earth, there is a try.
    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
    We old vets need to keep in mind those who come after us.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by cdq1958 View Post
    What some forget, sadly, is that combat is not the be all and end all of gameplay. For me, there is nothing you could do to make combat more fun. Combat is something I want to get done and done quickly, when combat is required. If that means using CC or pots, etc, then I'll use them. I also always approach an encounter with planning and I always think during one. Making combat take longer will not make it more fun. It'll just frustrate me, for I am one that despises a game handholding/patronizing me like that. I often wonder what it is about some that they can't engage their brains at all times. Oh well. Different strokes for different folks.
    You basically just confirmed my point, although perhaps disagree on the suggested solution, or you just think there is no solution.
    I think combat needs to be indeed slowed down a little, to the point mobs live long enough to pose a threat. Mobs posing threat is a VERY important thing, not just to make combat more fun, but also to give a sense of danger, something that is missing if you can faceroll through fights. Without sense of danger, killing an enemy will no longer feel as a reward on it's own. Not only does danger help with making combat more fun, it also assists the lore. If you enter an orc camp, it should feel like you are on enemy territory, instead of a place where orcs are conveniently together to slaughter.

    Also I want to point out I'm against being able to stay alive while AFK. Ok, maybe against a normal opponent of 20 levels lower you can survive for 3 minutes while AFK, but you should still eventually die if you don't do a thing. Even worse, being able to KILL mobs while AFK, and that happens now with 3man bosses.

    Ramping up the difficulty (in terms on requiring utility) is needed to fix the AFK problem, in order to make stuff not exceptionally difficult for the avarage player, I suggested the tutorials. If they are done right (providing information and testing if that information actually arrived), they can make combat feel easier, yet still be more interactive, and therefore more fun.
    ~Dwarrowdelf (Bomb Squad)~
    Freeps: Vulcwen (R8 LM), Vulciel (lvl 100 RK), and some lower level alts.. Creep: Shadowweb (R6 spider)
    My ideas on how LM should be: [url=https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?543323-LM-revamp-reconsidered]LM Revamp reconsidered[/url]

  8. #8
    Join Date
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    5,608
    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    I do not how common this issue is. I know a number of players that are not interested in performing certain actions in combat. Some examples being:

    1) Teaching some people how to kite a mob with two Hunters that are well apart. Make the mob ping pong between them. Worse case. One Hunter runs around until the mob decides enough of being plinked by the non running Hunters. They hate this technique. They want to plant their feet. Dig in. Shoot it to death on the way in. Failing that. A combination of melee and bow shots to finish the battle at knife fight range.

    2) Other friends of mine. I tried teaching them the usefulness of traps as a Hunter. Nope. Pass me the grenade launcher. I want to nuke stuff.

    3) Same kind of problem with a Lore Master. Not using crowd control like blinding flash. That is a waste of valuable game play time. It needs to die. I want more DPS skills. Or DPS skills that hit harder.

    4) Fellowship content for some my friends. No go. They only do solo content. Others are husband and wife. They will accept duo content.

    Another common problem is that many of them are playing the game to relax and have fun. They are not interested in having more complicated dynamics. All this kiting, crowd control, removal of diseases, buffing people is too much mental strain. They want KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) functionality. More skills especially if they have limited general use - are not wanted.

    I am not convinced that tutorials which are costly for Turbine to create are going to be appreciated or help. I suspect what is going to happen is that customers are going to request a skip these tutorials option. They want to get to the full public world where they can start playing their character for real. Plus playing their character the way they want to play it. I can hear the complaints about ""Why is Turbine making me use Blinding Flash?" I am not a crowd controller. I blow things up.

    There was at least one thread about a Lore Master player that was upset because some of the trait points come from using a Pet. Apparently this customer had never summoned a pet. Let alone used a pet to attack anything. I remember this kind of issue for my Champion. At one point Champions could use shields. There used to be a class deed that required that you block a number of blows with your shield. I got a shield. Went out to Evendim. Bare knuckle punched a grey deer. Read a book while standing there with my shield up until it went yellow for the day. I would leave. Next day I would be back out looking for another deer to punch.

    Final Thoughts:

    Many people do not use these techniques because they do not play their character that way. They are not interested in learning new tricks.

    The Helms Deep class changes are really helpful for the customers that want a a focused game play versus a complicated jack of all trades. They can pick a heavy DPS line such as Red. Somebody like me can go Yellow on their Hunter - have a blast setting traps, decoys, running around in circles doing all kinds of fancy stuff. I do not get much opportunity for fancy stuff. The opposition dies so quick. It is not hard to take 20,000 morale off a mob with trap bleeds. The mob is standing there beating on the decoy while I am way back shooting away.
    A bit off topic but thanks to this post I now want to take one of my toons that uses a shield to Evendim and bar knuckle puch a deer
    I saw the light fade from the sky
    On the wind I heard a sigh
    As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers
    I will say this last goodbye

  9. #9
    Gone are the days where you needed the holy trinity to complete content...

    Now, Turbine has given players guns and bazookas to bring to their knife fights. Literally.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0d21600000007617a/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  10. #10
    Join Date
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    1,118
    There are certain game elements that newer players don't even know about because you don't need them. Target forwarding for instance. A newer person wouldn't have a clue how to heal through a boss with forwarding because there's no need to do it anymore.

    The Order of The Silver Flame - A fun, mature, helpful and friendly kin. Come join us on Silverlode!

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Widoch View Post
    There are certain game elements that newer players don't even know about because you don't need them. Target forwarding for instance. A newer person wouldn't have a clue how to heal through a boss with forwarding because there's no need to do it anymore.
    Now you mention that, why isn't Raid Target Assist, and show target's target enabled by default, they are like the most important settings in group content, and it doesn't distract in solo play anyway.
    ~Dwarrowdelf (Bomb Squad)~
    Freeps: Vulcwen (R8 LM), Vulciel (lvl 100 RK), and some lower level alts.. Creep: Shadowweb (R6 spider)
    My ideas on how LM should be: [url=https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?543323-LM-revamp-reconsidered]LM Revamp reconsidered[/url]

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yula_the_Mighty View Post
    I do not how common this issue is. I know a number of players that are not interested in performing certain actions in combat. Some examples being:

    1) Teaching some people how to kite a mob with two Hunters that are well apart. Make the mob ping pong between them. Worse case. One Hunter runs around until the mob decides enough of being plinked by the non running Hunters. They hate this technique. They want to plant their feet. Dig in. Shoot it to death on the way in. Failing that. A combination of melee and bow shots to finish the battle at knife fight range.

    2) Other friends of mine. I tried teaching them the usefulness of traps as a Hunter. Nope. Pass me the grenade launcher. I want to nuke stuff.

    3) Same kind of problem with a Lore Master. Not using crowd control like blinding flash. That is a waste of valuable game play time. It needs to die. I want more DPS skills. Or DPS skills that hit harder.

    4) Fellowship content for some my friends. No go. They only do solo content. Others are husband and wife. They will accept duo content.

    Another common problem is that many of them are playing the game to relax and have fun. They are not interested in having more complicated dynamics. All this kiting, crowd control, removal of diseases, buffing people is too much mental strain. They want KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) functionality. More skills especially if they have limited general use - are not wanted.

    I am not convinced that tutorials which are costly for Turbine to create are going to be appreciated or help. I suspect what is going to happen is that customers are going to request a skip these tutorials option. They want to get to the full public world where they can start playing their character for real. Plus playing their character the way they want to play it. I can hear the complaints about ""Why is Turbine making me use Blinding Flash?" I am not a crowd controller. I blow things up.

    There was at least one thread about a Lore Master player that was upset because some of the trait points come from using a Pet. Apparently this customer had never summoned a pet. Let alone used a pet to attack anything. I remember this kind of issue for my Champion. At one point Champions could use shields. There used to be a class deed that required that you block a number of blows with your shield. I got a shield. Went out to Evendim. Bare knuckle punched a grey deer. Read a book while standing there with my shield up until it went yellow for the day. I would leave. Next day I would be back out looking for another deer to punch.

    Final Thoughts:

    Many people do not use these techniques because they do not play their character that way. They are not interested in learning new tricks.

    The Helms Deep class changes are really helpful for the customers that want a a focused game play versus a complicated jack of all trades. They can pick a heavy DPS line such as Red. Somebody like me can go Yellow on their Hunter - have a blast setting traps, decoys, running around in circles doing all kinds of fancy stuff. I do not get much opportunity for fancy stuff. The opposition dies so quick. It is not hard to take 20,000 morale off a mob with trap bleeds. The mob is standing there beating on the decoy while I am way back shooting away.
    This is indeed one of the challenges, making the game challenging for some people while keeping it simple and straightforward for others.

    I had really hoped Turbine would have made landscape and tier 1 skirms/instances/raids to cater for the straightforward approach (aka nuke it all) and make Tier 2 (and especially challenge) to cater for the players who want to enter more complex fights. That is what Tower of Orthanc T1 and T2 (especially trash pulls) did really well IMO with T1 being pugable while T2 was tough and took some tinkering and planning to get through.

    Sadly not even T2CM has that kind of challenge in any raid apart from the Erebor raids - sadly the Erebor raids aren't any fun because they're so repetitive, has no connection to current chapters in LotrO storyline, no trash pulls and too long fights.

    More ontopic: I would like to see the Class deeds being revamped to cater for more advanced use of skills rather than a insane amount of using skill X.

    As a Captain you have to use Sure Strike for at least one of the class deeds. However, the deed doesn't care about whether you're Battle-readied or not despite Battle-ready being the state where Sure Strike applies a nice buff (Relentless, On Guard or Focus) to himself and his fellowship. I would very much prefer a deed based around using Sure Strike in Battle-ready rather than just Sure Strike.
    It's probably not possible to make every class deed like this, but even just a couple of class deeds like this would IMO do well for a tutorial in the mechanics of the class - and should you not want to complete the deed, it's only a class trait point anyway.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Feb 24 2014 at 08:15 AM.

 

 

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