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  1. #1

    For Deviled Egg, RockX and Verizal

    Wall of text ahead.

    Lately I've stopped logging in the game for a few reasons.
    One of them is the little challenging content we have, except one or two old raid fights. But it's even more sad that I can’t tank those few fights because I’ve basically been replaced by a Support Class with an extremely OP line.
    Yes, I’m talking about Captains. But I’m also talking about Guardians here. I really think Deviled Egg got a bit too short with Wardens, but RockX and Verizal, you guys went nuts with Guardians and Captains.
    Thanks to that, there is simply no room for Wardens tanks in the little PvE content we have left worth calling it "end-game". The rest of content is such a silly faceroll that no real tanks are needed anyways.
    Warden is now a totally dispensable tank class in HD.

    Threat Leeches loss was a big hit for Wardens, probably the worst since it threw an essential part of the class to the gutter. But wouldn’t be “that” bad if the new 'tools' for tanking Wardens have now wouldn’t seem handicapped in comparison. I think it's very possible to still return the same feeling Warden had before with the new system, with a little extra effort from the Dev side.

    For example:
    -Increasing Convictions Healing threat multiplier for each fellow affected. It wouldn't be a Threat Leech, but in practice it would have a similar feel/effect.
    -Aggression giving a stacking +X% Threat Multiplier buff for a few seconds, short enough to not being able to stack more than twice, long enough to being able to use one or two gambits before it expires.
    -Increasing a bit the Radius & Targets of some AoE gambits. I'm thinking about increasing Desolation ( to 6 targets), Resounding Challenge (to 10 targets / 10m radius), EoB/Resolution (to 15 targets / 10 meters radius). Target limitation is something inappropriate for Wardens, since the class never had such a thing for aggro. At least we should be able to cover the same amount of targets an AoE champ can hit.

    Survival:
    Wardens are way too WEAK compared to Guardians or Captains. Weaker than ROR. Less Mitigations, less BPE. Selfheals? Not anymore. We are sitting in between Guardians and Captains in that matter. ONLY if we don’t take into account the stupidly OP traits like Exemplar or the Guardian’s homonym ‘heal-per-block’ that makes them literally immortals when enough mobs are hitting them – which should have been addressed a long time ago, Devs.

    BPE: There is something wrong about BPE if Guardians and Captains can have more Avoidances than Wardens.
    I mean, I understand they have more Mitigations, it’s LOGICAL. But more Avoidances? Seriously? C'mon Devs, balance it out a bit. It should be the opposite, specially having in mind BPE only covers physical damage, while Mitigations covers both Physical and Tactical damage. But anyways, someone decided they should have it all.
    Warden’s BPE, should be increased (i.e. to 25/30/30) while Guardians/Captains should be decreased to more logical levels (i.e. 25/25/20 or 30/25/15 traits included). Wardens really need a small advantage somewhere. Again, if you give the best mitigations and the best avoidances to two classes, do you really think Medium Armour Wardens can compete in that league?

    And one last thing, back to Deviled Egg. What’s going on with the Blue Capstone skill, For the Free Peoples? Why it hasn’t been changed yet?

    There are a TON of good suggestions since Beta started, surely there must be something not too crazy to develop there? There was a suggestion by someone, I can’t remember who, but it’s something very close to what I think Blue Capstone skill should be, and went something like this:

    +20% healing
    +20% evade
    Masteries have no cooldowns.
    Duration: 10s
    Cd: 1m30s


    Something like the above could be used to get more extra survival if needed, or to get buffs running up faster, to heal the fellowship if in a tight spot, or to produce much more Threat in a short time. That’s the type of stuff Wardens need, not mitigation ratings.

    Warden is still a complex class. The amount of time and practice you need to master it has nothing to do with any other class in the game. And in my books, investing your time and effort to play and gear that class properly, should allow you to achieve (at least) slightly better results than the rest. But right now is the complete opposite: work harder to achieve worse results.
    And I don’t care about new content coming up or not, this non-sense situation should be addressed.
    And that’s not only dependent on Deviled Egg, it’s also dependent on RockX' Captains and Verizal' Guardians.
    Please do something about it Devs.

  2. #2
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    Hi, i agree with all of that. I was thinking similar as you to capstone where it would increase evade chance to 100% for 15s and evades reset mastery cooldowns. Its also similar to one of the guardians skills were they get +100% block chance to use their reactives where as we would get to use our masteries to quickly build gambits.

    For revel combat (7 set determination bonus) which currently gives +100 morale leech to 3 of the gambit builders is also useless. I would like to see this as after suffering a critical hit (from skill or autoattack, not DoTs), the target and warden would get a debuff where their next autoattack is reduced to half. I would see this as a new way to make sure we have a chance to survive against bosses like durchest without hurting creeps too much, if somebody decides to go shield line in the moors.

    For morale drains, i would like to see fierce resolve and EoB radius and range increase to 10m. Resolution would remain 6m range and radius but max target requirement would be removed so this hits everything inside 6m of warden to help aoe tanking more. This means we have a skill which works within 6m if we have to tank in place and cant hit other targets with other skills.

    Defiant challenge should only be a force taunt and reflect buff, not mitigation buff. Having force taunt and big survival skill on same skill isnt the way to go. The reflect buff could have also 10% chance to return 2% power on any damage, (old recklessness wall of steel buff).

    For finishers, i would like to add new and old mechanics. If we think of shield-spear line, you could return the old mechanic where using CoS twice will give the highest rating and longest duration buffs. So none of these gambits wouldnt give partial block chance, only block rating. Then the finisher would give as much partial block chance as we lose from the current buffs which are (perseverce 2%, safeguard 4% and CoS 7.5%). So the total finisher would be 13.5% partial block chance.
    Related to finishers, the chance to use a finisher buff should last forever till you are out of combat 9 seconds or when you use specific finishers 2 times. If you do perseverce and safeguard, you would gain a buff where you can use CoS or Restoration finishers. This buff would expire when you use these gambits twice or when out of combat for 9s. So you can use either restoration and CoS once, CoS twice or Restoration twice.
    Everybody liked that using CoS twice gave the best buff with longest duration but this left the lower gambits in shadow of longer gambits. Everybody would have also liked if finishers were something unique instead of small buff. This would fix both problems. I think finisher buffs should last 10s and the trait "stand your ground" should increase the finisher duration +10, 20 and 30s so it would be far out of reach of red/yellow line. Right now "stand your ground" is really weak.

    What was taken from DC should be added to DoW finisher. However, having 92% would be too much so if DC now gives 42% for 12s with 20s, this means 25.2% increase if it lasted full 20s. I think 25% would be too much so maybe 15% is more reasonable. Conviction could have threat transfer instead of tact mit buffs and the +20% conviction healing as finisher or even 30%.

    War cry could have the more mit% the more targets you hit but the duration has to be short. Wardens have always have the problems of taking lot of spike damage in the begin. Battle prep partially fixed it but if DC mitigation buff was for this reason then i think using war cry would do it better. If it was 2% mits per target for 2s and 60s cd. The trait which currently increases DC mit buff, could increase war cry mit buff duration by 2, 4 and 6 seconds.
    Terminaattori of Elendilmir

  3. #3
    About non target limit aggro, I have to admit that it can be stronger than before or way weaker depending on how much dmg do you get and how much do you self heal. I think EoB should just be no target limit yes, just hit everything on that 6m range (I should heal more if I'm fighting 20 enemies than if I'm tanking 10, it's how the skill was designed).
    About DC I just don't like that our threat magic button exists, but if it does since they changed aggro system, at least don't mix it with our survivability skill, I just guess our survival skill should be defiant challenge as it used to but don't force us to get every enemy around if I want my mitigation buff. So make 2 separate skills.

    And about traits...it's a true joke, it's offense even, warden is only good for PVP (as it always been), for tanking, you got way less survivability than any other tank class, and even less than some champs dps geared.

    TRAITS: We got lots of useless traits, a huge bunch of them has no use at all, since they increase some ratings of buffs (by a ridiculous amount by the way) and they are overcapped already with any buff we use, so there's no point at all on that, turn them into % that can go above cap, given other classes got similar traits to go over cap on mitigations and avoids, and tying them to our buffs is not a bad idea if they are potent enough.
    On the other part I completely agree on avoidance difference now, we should have more avoidance than any other tanking class, simple as, we receive way greater hits, (around 80% greater hits given mitigation difference not counting that guardians and captains can increase their mitigation over cap too for some time) so at least we should receive less number of hits, and we also should have way more self heals than any other class, by a fair amount.

    Suggestions:
    - Give passive % avoidance bonus on blue line (like 5% more evade or so).
    - Change all useless rating bonus traits for buffs into true % increase (for temporary avoidances or mitigations).
    - Capstone, I really liked the 1st post idea, but could use too a -inc dmg buff or more evade chance buff.
    - Defiant challenge: Make 2 separate skills out of it. 1 for forced attack and 1 for mitigations and reflect.
    - Increase self heals pulses and amount for blue line (to at least +5 pulses instead of just 3) by a huge amount, given we got way less passive survivability.

    The idea is just, we got hardest class to play good, make it harder to play again but give it way more potential so:
    Bad warden = way worse than Bad guardian/captain/champion-----------Average/decent warden = slightly worse than average Guardian/captain/champion if receiving huge hits----- Good Warden = better than any other class, since it's not easy to find a good warden.
    So the point of playing a complex and hard to learn class is, after being good with it, being able to do things other classes can't, and now it's just a harder class to play but yet being less capable of tanking. Same happens for rk healer.

  4. #4
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    Thanks RockX and Verizal for your efforts. Good luck!

  5. #5
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    Unhappy

    I completely agree with you but as someone said in an other thread, as long as every encounter is somehow doable turbine doesn´t care.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Skirata View Post
    I completely agree with you but as someone said in an other thread, as long as every encounter is somehow doable turbine doesn´t care.
    Then maybe it's time to stop caring about Turbine as a Warden player. Cya LOTRO when you fix this stupid madness and bring new content.

  7. #7
    Eh, guess I'll throw in my two cents. I miss my Warden.


    1 Critical Hits
    No one is ever going to want a tank that has the possibility of being one or two shot. It makes it so that the group can be wiped more due to bad luck than to player actions. Unfortunately, having Guards at 80 and Wardens at 50% mitigation creates a huge disparity between the classes. Critical hits must have a multiplier of 250% (after critical defense) before Guards take as much damage from a critical hit as a Warden would take from a regular one*. This makes it impossible to balance critical hits properly, because they'll either be too small to dent a Guardian's morale or too big and insta-kill Wardens. I see a few ways to deal with this problem.

    Make Wardens immune to critical hits, or give them enough critical defense to equate to the same thing: With 50% mitigation, a hard hitting skill can have the same effect as if that skill had crit on a class with more.

    Give Wardens a skill or gambit to reduce incoming damage: I'm not a fan of this solution. The more you reduce the mob's damage, the less it matters if you lose aggro.

    Give Wardens more mitigation: If the gap is smaller it won't be so much of an issue.

    Wardens get an incoming healing buff after a critical: I don't like this solution either. Critical hits are still limited in magnitude by the mitigation gap.


    2 Incoming Damage
    Once the critical hit mechanics are addressed, Wardens will still need more survivability to be on par with other tank classes.

    1/2/3/4/5% evade: Wardens really should have more avoidance than other tanks, just because of class concept if nothing else. I've heard Guards can get 85% avoidances. If that's the case, Wardens don't actually need that much of an edge in absolute terms to make up for the gap in mitigations. 94% would be enough to close the damage gap completely.**

    Each gambit in the Impressive Flourish line grants 1/2/3% evade. Does not include Conviction: For 89% with all 3 of them up, maybe 30 second duration.

    Shield Mastery provides 1/2% block on top of its existing bonuses: For a total of 91%. Not quite the magic number, but with the critical hit problem fixed and a buff or two somewhere else it should be pretty close to even.

    For every fellowship member affected by Conviction, the Warden receives a 1/2/3/4/5% incoming healing buff: The idea here is to do something about the historic too strong in small fellowships, too weak in raids problem.

    Each gambit in the perseverance line provides 1/2/3/4/5% incoming healing when active: The general idea for this trait and the last is that avoidance gambits will be better at reducing damage generally, but in a fight with lots of tactical attacks that can't be bpe'd the Warden can switch to a rotation that features more healing gambits so that the incoming healing buff will keep things manageable.

    I disagree with the other posters who say that a perfectly played Warden should be a better tank than a perfectly played Guardian. If they're equal, the Warden can play better to achieve parity. If the Warden is better, there's nothing the Guardian can do. In a way, they get punished for wanting to play a Guard more than a Warden. Maybe a very slight benefit, but no more than that. I think what I'd prefer is for both tanks to have their own strengths, with a Warden's being generally easier to take advantage of but a Guard's being just as good if the effort is made to use them. No idea how to make that happen though.


    1 General
    For me, one of my favorite parts about the Warden is the freedom. Let other classes worry about cooldowns and the like. I've got all my skills available to me whenever I want them. In HD this was lost somewhat. DC is short enough to be a rotational cd, though since it cannot be kept up permanently some judgement is required in when to use it. No. I think Wardens have always been more about which skills do I use (since I can't build gambits fast enough to keep all possible buffs up) than when the best time to use this cd is. Remove the mitigation buff as a factor, though I suppose we'll still need it as a force taunt with the new threat system. Then there's the gambit finishers. I don't like those either, they lock me into a specific rotation rather than any gambit I want to use. I'd much rather go back to the old system, or even the MoM/SoM system.

    I agree with some of the other posters that Resolution/EoB should lose their max target limits. They'd just be more fun that way.

    For avoidances, I'd prefer to see the focus on evade and block. With the new tanking system, a ranged Warden tank is a possibility. It would be situational at best, but it'd be fun for it to be a viable option.

    Normally I'm against cds on a Warden, but the 0 cd for masteries one sounds really fun. I might take off the additional benefits though, so it's just a way to get more power out of the gambit system and doesn't give any bonus the Warden couldn't already get.

    If changes are made, some of them have to be at the beginning of the trait tree. Wardens should be viable tanks from their very first GB.


    2 Warden forum gambit: Wall of Text

    *We'll try this with a hit for 1000 damage.
    Warden: 1000*.5=500
    Guardian: (1000*2.5)*.2=500
    If the multiplier was lower than 250%, Guards would be taking less damage from a critical hit than a Warden from a regular one.

    **We'll go 1000 dps, because 1000 is an easy number to work with.
    Warden: 1000*.5*.06=30
    Guard: 1000*.2*.15=30

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Me_the_Third View Post

    Make Wardens immune to critical hits
    I could go write a wall of text here, but... I'll say no more.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
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    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  9. #9
    Immunity on critical hits is not a bad idea but not always, since it may be OP, my suggestion is 15s of critical hit immunity with no cd after receiving one critical hit (kind of what we had before, but this time without cooldown) so we have time for healers or ourselves to get our morale to max before next huge critical hit is coming, anyways we're receiving way higher base dmg magnitude than any other tank class.
    Avoidances is a must, and wardens should have highest avoidances, period.

    Regarding mitigations...even Hunters got 1 trait for + 5% mitigation on yellow line, why not warden on blue line have 10% more or so?
    And for self heals, we should receive a passive self heal %based on every avoidance(not only evade or block) we do, so we don't need our self heals scaled and yet we would have a bit more passive survivability.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Immunity on critical hits is not a bad idea but not always, since it may be OP, my suggestion is 15s of critical hit immunity with no cd after receiving one critical hit (kind of what we had before, but this time without cooldown) so we have time for healers or ourselves to get our morale to max before next huge critical hit is coming, anyways we're receiving way higher base dmg magnitude than any other tank class.
    Avoidances is a must, and wardens should have highest avoidances, period.

    Regarding mitigations...even Hunters got 1 trait for + 5% mitigation on yellow line, why not warden on blue line have 10% more or so?
    And for self heals, we should receive a passive self heal %based on every avoidance(not only evade or block) we do, so we don't need our self heals scaled and yet we would have a bit more passive survivability.
    Eh, I think you'd be surprised about how powerful permanent crit immunity would be. I'd definitely say that it should be deactivated in the Moors, but other than that it would be fine.

    We'll try this: A Warden and a Guard, both with 30,000 morale. The critical multiplier will be 200%, and the Warden will be immune to crits. Both are tanking Super Scary Boss™ that crits the Guard for 20,000 morale. How much did he hit the Warden for? 25,000.

    Math: We know the hit was 20,000 on the Guard, so before mitigations it must have been 100,000 (100,000*.8=20,000). That was a critical hit though, so the base damage on the hit must have been 50,000 (50,000*2=100,000). That same hit applied to the Warden hits for 25,000 (50,000*.5[mitigations]) without even being a crit.

    An important concept here is what I'll call the break even point. At 250% critical multiplier, the Warden will take the same amount of damage from a normal attack as a Guard would from a critical version of that attack. If it's lower than 250% then the Guard will take less damage, higher than 250% and the Warden will take less damage. The thing is, it's highly unlikely that the critical multiplier even reaches 250%, much less surpasses it. Critical defense subtracts additively from critical multiplier (I think), so to get to 250% after a standard 60% critical defense would mean a mob would have to have 310% somehow. For perspective, a normal devastating hit only gets 200%

    Changing the break even point is fairly simple actually. A 10% mitigation increase directly corresponds to a 50% decrease in the break even point. So 50% mits are 250%, 60% is 200%, and so on. So mitigations on the Warden should probably be increased so that the break even point will be at a more reasonable level, even with critical hit immunity. Anyways, I hope I explained that clearly enough. I've always had some difficulty conveying what I mean.

    TLDR: Even if Wardens were immune to critical hits, spike damage would STILL kill them before it would a Guard taking the normal crit damage. Possibly even if the Warden had 60% mitigation.

  11. #11
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    But I love the fact that I get to practice my single target DPS rotation when tanking single target mobs.
    And I also love AoE tanking with 2 gambits, it's the best thing this class has ever had to offer in the whole 4 years the class has ever existed.


    Anyway, if the sarcasm wasn't yet noted, then w/e

    The fact that the only way to cap, or even get anywhere near capped block rating as an avoidance tank is to stack might (which isn't even supposed to be a main stat anymore) is appalling.
    Especially when Guardians, for example, are near cap of all three, have 20% more mitigations, are able to stack over double the critical defence and maintain very VERY powerful passive tanking bonuses from the trait tree alone, and all without nearly sacrificing anything.
    Then, they have great synergies in tanking rotations, and even have the option to chain force taunt something so aggro doesn't even matter.

    Something needs to be done about the mitigation gap (Maybe doing what would have worked originally and give wardens a 10% extra mit cap), the inability to efficiently get near capped block, and then someone needs to look at the fact that guardians can stack around 100% critical defence (????).
    After that, gambit tanking synergies I think are going to need yet another revamp (Just ####ing fix up a proper way of the fist trait-line already, hell).

    But I mean, what it comes down to is if the devs think that this disparity between the main tanking classes (I didn't even bother to mention the comparisons between the capabilities of the non-tanking classes) is perfectly balanced, then all we can do is continue to sit in the rollercoaster.



    On the side note, can we get something that's ####ing challenging in this game? Despite the ridiculous tanking disparity, almost managed to solo Sari-Surma (Last boss is kinda impossible) in a mainly red-orientated trait setup.
    Last edited by Untg99; Feb 17 2014 at 02:49 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Something needs to be done about the mitigation gap (Maybe doing what would have worked originally and give wardens a 10% extra mit cap), the inability to efficiently get near capped block, and then someone needs to look at the fact that guardians can stack around 100% critical defence (????).
    After that, gambit tanking synergies I think are going to need yet another revamp (Just ####ing fix up a proper way of the fist trait-line already, hell).
    More and more its becoming apparent that turbine Devs cannot work around the mitigation gap effectively. They've fired 2/3 of the competent class Devs (even if RockX and Verizal tended to be overzealous) and left us with the overworked one, and the incompetent one. Our hopes for comprehensive class balancing is pretty much out the window at this point, so lets just get the easy fix of a blue capstone for +10% mitigations while in into the fray and nerf self-heals by about 15% and call it a day. Its not 'good', but its better than now.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Me_the_Third View Post
    Eh, I think you'd be surprised about how powerful permanent crit immunity would be. I'd definitely say that it should be deactivated in the Moors, but other than that it would be fine.

    We'll try this: A Warden and a Guard, both with 30,000 morale. The critical multiplier will be 200%, and the Warden will be immune to crits. Both are tanking Super Scary Boss™ that crits the Guard for 20,000 morale. How much did he hit the Warden for? 25,000.

    Math: We know the hit was 20,000 on the Guard, so before mitigations it must have been 100,000 (100,000*.8=20,000). That was a critical hit though, so the base damage on the hit must have been 50,000 (50,000*2=100,000). That same hit applied to the Warden hits for 25,000 (50,000*.5[mitigations]) without even being a crit.

    An important concept here is what I'll call the break even point. At 250% critical multiplier, the Warden will take the same amount of damage from a normal attack as a Guard would from a critical version of that attack. If it's lower than 250% then the Guard will take less damage, higher than 250% and the Warden will take less damage. The thing is, it's highly unlikely that the critical multiplier even reaches 250%, much less surpasses it. Critical defense subtracts additively from critical multiplier (I think), so to get to 250% after a standard 60% critical defense would mean a mob would have to have 310% somehow. For perspective, a normal devastating hit only gets 200%

    Changing the break even point is fairly simple actually. A 10% mitigation increase directly corresponds to a 50% decrease in the break even point. So 50% mits are 250%, 60% is 200%, and so on. So mitigations on the Warden should probably be increased so that the break even point will be at a more reasonable level, even with critical hit immunity. Anyways, I hope I explained that clearly enough. I've always had some difficulty conveying what I mean.

    TLDR: Even if Wardens were immune to critical hits, spike damage would STILL kill them before it would a Guard taking the normal crit damage. Possibly even if the Warden had 60% mitigation.
    Well, it's not just pick one of the fixes, it's fix everything a bit so overall it is balanced in the end:
    Right now:
    - Sustained (overall ) inc dmg (which means dps of boss on ourselves): so if guardians have 5% more avoidance than Warden, then Guardians are receiving 5% less damage on a fight (since full block means 0 damage). That apart from being right the opposite as it should be (since wardens being more agile classes just by definition should be avoiding more of enemies attacks).
    - Single hit (spike) damage: That's your numbers, so I won't repeat. Damage taken in Warden is around 2.5x than on Guardian. (more if you count critical hits).
    - Self heals: Right now we yet can receive more damage since we should be able to self heal some of it.

    With few fixes:
    - Increase avoidances % by 10% (+5% to block or parry and +5% to evade), so we receive 5% less hits than guardians. Also adding a partial avoidance dmg reduction buff could help here.
    - Give critical hit immunity upon receiving a critical hit and increase mitigations by 10%. That would mean difference between guards and wardens to be reduced from nearly 2.5x to only 2x base dmg, so a hit of 10k would be 2k on guard and 4k on warden. And that would mean critical hits of 200% magnitude can hit for 8k on warden and 4k on guardian, but only once each few seconds so rest of crit hits would be similar on warden than on guardian, while yet base dmg will be much higher on warden (honestly it should not be equal since guardians are heavy armoured classes).
    - Increase self heals (or add duration so they are more easily stackable), and give passive self heal of around 1% of max morale on each avoidance (it's around 300 morale each avoid).
    All of that would yet allow Guardian to be fairly better for big single target boss tanking, but allow warden to be able too.

  14. #14
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    The idea is that compared to a guardian, what we lack in mitigation we should be making up for in avoidance and self sustainability.

    Right now, that whole concept is a joke.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    The idea is that compared to a guardian, what we lack in mitigation we should be making up for in avoidance and self sustainability.

    Right now, that whole concept is a joke.
    of course, and it has been since we mentioned this in beta; the only "saving grace" is faceroll content, but that's turned me off the game more quickly than it did during RoR. So the question now is, given that all of the veteran devs are gone, and given that the inexperienced devs that are left are overworked, and given the enormous amount of rebalancing (both wrt the introduction of an actual tradeoff of mits vs. avoidances for heavy classes that verizal promised and wrt mob damage) that still has to occur: do you see it happening, and will you keep playing given that it won't happen (in a robust, rather than haphazard) way for months if not longer?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    of course, and it has been since we mentioned this in beta; the only "saving grace" is faceroll content, but that's turned me off the game more quickly than it did during RoR. So the question now is, given that all of the veteran devs are gone, and given that the inexperienced devs that are left are overworked, and given the enormous amount of rebalancing (both wrt the introduction of an actual tradeoff of mits vs. avoidances for heavy classes that verizal promised and wrt mob damage) that still has to occur: do you see it happening, and will you keep playing given that it won't happen (in a robust, rather than haphazard) way for months if not longer?
    I've been semi-playing since they stuffed the class after moria. Played right up to U6 (where imo, in retrospect, they began ruining it even more). So, I'd probably keep poking my head in, but the only thing that'd get me playing again for real will be if they put the warden back in the warden class.

  17. #17

    Lightbulb Few things I'd like fixed as a warden in the moors:

    Defiant Challenge:
    This skill is good for getting wargs out of stealth, but not match else.
    The reflect aspect is miniscule (as should be) and the mitigation per target is useless as orc-craft and fell wrought is only mitigated by audacity.
    Proposal: Keep the reflect as is, wardens have other damage sources, make the skill worth traiting for in all specs tho by changing the %mitigations per target to -%incoming damage per target. Since it is a skill with small cooldown nerf it from 60% to 40%, maybe less if the player is not fully traited in blue line.

    Note for bleeds:
    Vicious offense bleeds (15% chance on hit in red line) are still unmitigated
    Ranged unerring strike still does true unmitigated damage

    Tenacious Warden bleed (from damage Helm's Deep platinum reward set) does unmitigated damage-- this one I propose to remain that way. It hits like a medium bleed anyway.

    Considering the bleeds that have been fixed and that the above will one day be fixed too, warden's bleed will need a damage boost to compensate.

    Additional Proposal:
    Wardens are supposed to be the bleeds class, and yes, we do have the highest DOTs but the durations are shorter than many DOTs of other classes.
    I suggest that unnering strike becomes a finisher gambit, with 50% chance for the bleed to last 30 seconds- maybe boosted to 70% if you are in red line
    Last edited by Father_of_Tillogrim; Feb 19 2014 at 09:38 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Father_of_Tillogrim View Post
    Defiant Challenge:
    This skill is good for getting wargs out of stealth, but not match else.
    The reflect aspect is miniscule (as should be) and the mitigation per target is useless as orc-craft and fell wrought is only mitigated by audacity.
    Proposal: Keep the reflect as is, wardens have other damage sources, make the skill worth traiting for in all specs tho by changing the %mitigations per target to -%incoming damage per target. Since it is a skill with small cooldown nerf it from 60% to 40%, maybe less if the player is not fully traited in blue line.

    Note for bleeds:
    Vicious offense bleeds (15% chance on hit in red line) are still unmitigated
    Barbed javelin bleeds(50% chance on hit in yellow line) as well as ranged unerring strike still does true unmitigated damage

    Tenacious Warden bleed (from damage Helm's Deep platinum reward set) does unmitigated damage-- this one I propose to remain that way. It hits like a medium bleed anyway.

    Considering the bleeds that have been fixed and that the above will one day be fixed too, warden's bleed will need a damage boost to compensate.

    Additional Proposal:
    Wardens are supposed to be the bleeds class, and yes, we do have the highest DOTs but the durations are shorter than many DOTs of other classes.
    I suggest that unnering strike becomes a finisher gambit, with 50% chance for the bleed to last 30 seconds- maybe boosted to 70% if you are in red line
    better to just up the damage bonuses that already exist in the power attack line. (and make them weapon type, rather than common)

    The class is already overloaded on DoTs, imo. It could use some ways to produce better upfront damage.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_of_Tillogrim View Post
    Barbed javelin bleeds(50% chance on hit in yellow line)
    I don't know about you, but my barbed javelin bleeds are doing weapon type damage (beleriand).
    Gremblus, Seuer, Grelob, and various others of Arkenstone

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Gremus View Post
    I don't know about you, but my barbed javelin bleeds are doing weapon type damage (beleriand).
    Just checked it and you are right, edited the original.

    Thanks

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    better to just up the damage bonuses that already exist in the power attack line. (and make them weapon type, rather than common)

    The class is already overloaded on DoTs, imo. It could use some ways to produce better upfront damage.
    Well that's what the class is about sort of. There needs to be diversity in the game, cant have everyone doing burst damage. Perhaps the yellow line should have less dots and more burst.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Father_of_Tillogrim View Post
    Well that's what the class is about sort of. There needs to be diversity in the game, cant have everyone doing burst damage. Perhaps the yellow line should have less dots and more burst.
    Or maybe yellow line could be our light damage DoT focused melee line (With other focuses for the non-melee, non-DoT fist gambits - Could even relate it as an off-tank role like the guardians yellow line!), and red line could be our direct damage line.

    Did I mention #### assailment?

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Did I mention #### assailment?
    Wardens had a ranged stance from the start. HD merged the melee dps with the melee tank stance since the traits changed but there still has to bee a ranged stance. Having two stances and 3 specs the warden can have three roles: melee tank, melee dps and ranged dps/support. That's what the developers had in mind in HD and although yellow traited wardens are not full support as cappies, they still have some utility in that area. I don't mind that at all.

    If u wanna #### assailment or make yellow traits another melee line then what's the point of a stance with no trait line backing it up?
    + red is already a dot spec for both the bleeds and the light dots, I can't see why you would have one line focusing on bleed dots and one line focusing on light dots.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Father_of_Tillogrim View Post
    Wardens had a ranged stance from the start.
    you are wrong .

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    When wardens were introduced in Moria, there was no ranged stance; only the jav skills of jav toss, shield piercer, hampering jav, wages of fear, (legendary skill) JODF, and ambush. They weren't as gimp as they are nowadays though relative to other skills; scaling has not been kind. However, for both Moria and Mirkwood, we had to gear for agility for ranged damage, might for melee damage depending on our preference.

    While there was no ranged stance initially, 'ranged damage' has been part of the class description from the start. At the time, jav wardens were the only class that could do ranged on the run (not counting tactical here).

    Assailment was introduced.. with Isengard expansion, I think? At the time the ranged gambits were a mirror to the melee ones; same effects, only the initial damage was increased proportional to the slower attack speed of javelins compared to 1h weapons. And with the 5m min range requirement.

    It was with RoR that Assailment gambits started to get wierd; at first just changing the multihit attacks (ranged wall of steel for example) into one damage lump, then moving bleeds from ranged power attack line to ranged boar's rush line (but losing one in the process). I can only guess this was because nobody would use ranged boar's rush otherwise, so instead nobody used ranged power attack/mighty blow. There's always been 'useless' gambits, especially from a DPS perspective.

    I really don't know what the devs have in mind for wardens now since the only information we have is assailment traitline being called ranged support, despite getting no support abilities worth using aside from marked and diminished target; and the usable gambits are all damage skills, which ends up with assailment still just being ranged damage.
    Gremblus, Seuer, Grelob, and various others of Arkenstone

 

 
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