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  1. #1
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    Angry U12.3 Physical Bleeds/Bleed Damage/Nerf/Whatever/Warden DEV? Does one exist?

    Just a post to voice my concerns with the latest "patch" for wardens. As countless tearful creeps have pointed out, having unmitigated skills is extremely overpowered *AHEM* Impale *AHEM*, I agree entirely. They bypass crit def, audacity, and bubbles which is wrong.

    Wardens having good dps in their DPS BUILD however, seems to bring a massive stream of tears from the cheeks of all creeps and freep to creep flippers alike. It is indeed hard to faceroll on your warg hipsing every minute and a half, when you die because a class has a way to combat your escape tactics.

    Either way, this is not a basher thread, I don't want an argument and those who say "learn to play" can go find another thread to troll, I know how to play and I do extremely well in pvp. I just think the incredible nerf to our spear-gambit line was uncalled for. Fixing the damage type? TOTALLY necessary, killing creeps through bubbles is ridiculous. A net dps loss per bleed of ~50-70% however? What is a red line warden supposed to do if when it uses its dps skills, they are taken away? We have two lines for bleeds and have had them for as long as I can remember:

    Spear gambit line
    Fist gambit line

    There's also a third gambit line which utilizes spear and fist which is a nice gambit line to use for reasons I won't go into.

    Once upon a time, these two main lines had on-par dps. You could work out what type of enemy you were facing by using your brain (hard in pvp these days) and use a rotation according to your opponents class which was great. Before long however, light-damage "over time" skills took a sharp rise in potency, great, wardens can actually dps for a change (since the MASSIVE nerf on Wall of Steel damage and how pathetic Wardens Triumph is, that I also will not go into here).

    Since that sharp rise in fist gambit damage we had two lines which were excellent, a high dps spear-gambit line which dealt less direct damage but had the bonus of some rather lack-luster but still acceptable bonus damages for higher and higher tier gambits. And the fist line which was straight-up high damage over time. Excellent. The problem is, and this is my main point, what needed a nerf was the fact that these spear bleeds can puncture bubbles and bypass audacity. What did not need a nerf was their damage output. Making them mitigated, + audacity + crit defense mitigated, has resulted in a 50 to 70% (ish) drop in potency. The dps nerf? Not so bothered. The fact that the original and COOLEST line of skills (in my opinion) in the whole game, is now USELESS, is what I find unfortunate. There is zero reason to use spear-gambits now except Unerring Strike purely because it's easy to build with masteries and it does almost-reasonable damage as a good filler. Low bleed ticking for (on a ranked, full aud creep) 300-600 is just awful, how can the devs think that negating one of the main gambit lines a warden has, is a good idea? Unmitigated damage needed fixing, 50% of a wardens dps rotation did not need REMOVING from the game because of this.

    My point if you can't be bothered to read this whole post, is, a red line warden is a dps class, as it always should've been (it was always a jack of all trades class) so simply taking away a huge proportion of our damage because putting out a proper fix and testing it is too difficult, is unacceptabe. If you're going to halve their damage by making them mitigated, add a 50-70% damage boost to them to keep them in line with our Fist line, rather than negating the whole gambit line. If it turns out that damage output is too high after this, reduce it as a whole, don't just REMOVE an entire line of gambits (effectively) because it's easier.

    This developer half-assery is getting to be ridiculous. As is this post, since it won't be read and will no doubt start an uproar of tears because people died in a pvp zone.

    Things need fixing and tweaking, wrecking one of the few good things a red-line warden has (DPS, not unmit bleeds) is not a "fix". If you the dev"s" can't be bothered, or cant find the time, I'll have a crack at it for you, free of charge, say the word. Can't fund the development of the game a great many of us pay to play? Let us help out, the players know what we want.

    I just want my spear gambits to be worth using again. Beleriand damage is great, I just don't like tickling creeps with it.

    May the creep QQ-rivers flood Glan Vraig, get yer boats ready boys! And yes, creeps, I do play creep too, and I HATE wardens on my creep, but on my freeps I also hate many creep classes for their better aspects, it's part of the game.

    Sincerely, a Warden.

  2. #2
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    I'll grant you low bleed is hitting for almost nothing now, but our dps is just fine still. Even with spear bleeds hitting for less, we can still pump out some impressive dps on creeps. The spear bleeds are far from useless and are probably still the best option for dps, especially considering the second bleed from martial fury is still unmitigated. I think maybe a slight increase in potency is all that's really needed.

  3. #3
    We really needed another thread about this?

    Warden's are fine, we're probably the best sustained dps in the moors, even after this bugfix, are still unbeatable 1v1, and are generally still one of the 2 or 3 most powerful classes in the game for pvp. The loss in PvE dps is quite minor so I don't see any cause for complaints there.

    The power attack line is still head and shoulders better than any of the upfront damage lines, so I don't understand what you mean about the whole gambit line becoming obsolete. you say you don't need to hear any learn to play comments and that you're a very successful warden: why do you even think you need any of the spear or fist gambit DoTs to be successful then? Those nerfs to WoS and WT (and Boar's rush) may have happened, but the class is still so powerful these 'massively' nerfed lines are still effective enough.

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  4. #4
    Hah you used Goad there. Busted. OP ezmode fotm
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  5. #5
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    In response to the 1v1 video vs Dances, it isn't apparent what rotation he is using and what skills he may or may not be using, or his playing ability. Yeah by spamming potency and WoS you can do some ok dps, but it being 1/3 the dps of the bleed lines is hardly making it a viably usable line.

    As for 1v1s, well yeah, we still do well in 1v1s, but for example I was duo with a friend of mine last night, him healing, me dps'ing, and vs 1 war leader and a few wargs, maybe 4 (varying from ranks 5 to 14), I simply did not have the damage output to bring down the WL or any of the wargs through the WL's heals, a squishy half audacity warg would be no trouble 1v1 obviously, but the fact that our awesome clearly un-nerfed damage can't pierce through 1 war leader's heals is just awful. What's the point in being a dps if after you get half your rotation on your opponent you just stand there derping around with wall of steel and what not, which is an inefficient rotation as stated above, since it's damage is so mediocre. Perhaps the spear gambits are not so much obsolete, but they are on-par with Wall of Steel which everyone is readily agreeable to being a pretty naff skill now. I'd just like to see a damage buff to our spear gambits to make them worth-while to use, over other lines i.e. fist gambit line. Currently there is NO comparison, is my point.

    "The spear bleeds are far from useless and are probably still the best option for dps, especially considering the second bleed from martial fury is still unmitigated." --- The secondary bleed is unmitigated yes, but clearly due to lack of Dev quality, rather than intent, so it's bound to get fixed at some point. It is also only 15% which whilst does proc quite often, is so unreliable that you'd be better off just re-applying fist bleeds and hoping for the best timing on pulses/re-applications. As for "probably still the best option for dps" I highly disagree. Doing a few parses on Tyrants and Creeps, I can do roughly 4000 dps on a Tyrant in an outpost using spear line and 7000 dps using my fist gambit line, that's not even comparable nor a one-off, I get similar figures over and over. These are obviously far lower on ranked, high audacity creeps, but the numbers are still on similar ratios, proving Spear gambits to provide just over half the dps of fist gambits.

    All in all, I'd just like it so that when I'm fighting 2v10 as I often am, being a small grouper and soloer, I can actually kill a couple before me and my duo go down. As it stands now, in many 2vX fights since yesterday, it's significantly harder to do so well when fighting vs so many target forward healers, even picking on squishy targets and low ranks.

    Keep the input coming, and don't misunderstand, I think our dps is still good, I just don't think the nerf was necessary given what other classes chuck out. (My mini got a 37k Call to Fate followed by a 36k Coda on a rank 12 reaver a week or so ago, and they nerf wardens lesser-used bleed line....)

    Anyway, appreciate the input

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    As for "probably still the best option for dps" I highly disagree. Doing a few parses on Tyrants and Creeps, I can do roughly 4000 dps on a Tyrant in an outpost using spear line and 7000 dps using my fist gambit line, that's not even comparable nor a one-off, I get similar figures over and over. These are obviously far lower on ranked, high audacity creeps, but the numbers are still on similar ratios, proving Spear gambits to provide just over half the dps of fist gambits.
    When i said that spear bleeds are probably the best option i meant using a spear bleed over onslaught or WOS. I see no reason why you cant use both fist bleeds and spear bleeds at the same time.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimrinoth View Post
    When i said that spear bleeds are probably the best option i meant using a spear bleed over onslaught or WOS. I see no reason why you cant use both fist bleeds and spear bleeds at the same time.
    Cause, unless you got a healer, you need to self heal, and that takes time enough to not be able to do that full rotation.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Cause, unless you got a healer, you need to self heal, and that takes time enough to not be able to do that full rotation.

    This ties in to another point in the other post as well, but addressing it here. There are zero creep classes that require a single self-heal to bring down when playing a warden right now. What you and Ethrildar seem to be asking for is that one of our 2 DoT lines (in this case the spear DoTs) be powerful enough to bring down a creep, while providing enough time to maintain the persevere line at the same time. The reality of your servers may be that when someone sees your warden solo they call in 4 friends, because when they jump you solo or duo-ed, you kill them, or when a warden mini duo is spotted 10 will show, because when 4 or 5 attack you, you still win. The answer to this problem isn't keeping wardens buffed to the point where they can be viable in 1v5s, or 2v10s, its making it so creeps have a fighting chance in roughly even numbers so they don't need to enlist help. This isn't to say if freeps were brought down to creep levels creeps would stop calling in the zerg, since players after easy points will always do so. Its to say that what you're asking for is only exacerbating an already problematic situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    In response to the 1v1 video vs Dances, it isn't apparent what rotation he is using and what skills he may or may not be using, or his playing ability. Yeah by spamming potency and WoS you can do some ok dps, but it being 1/3 the dps of the bleed lines is hardly making it a viably usable line.

    As for 1v1s, well yeah, we still do well in 1v1s, but for example I was duo with a friend of mine last night, him healing, me dps'ing, and vs 1 war leader and a few wargs, maybe 4 (varying from ranks 5 to 14), I simply did not have the damage output to bring down the WL or any of the wargs through the WL's heals, a squishy half audacity warg would be no trouble 1v1 obviously, but the fact that our awesome clearly un-nerfed damage can't pierce through 1 war leader's heals is just awful. What's the point in being a dps if after you get half your rotation on your opponent you just stand there derping around with wall of steel and what not, which is an inefficient rotation as stated above, since it's damage is so mediocre. Perhaps the spear gambits are not so much obsolete, but they are on-par with Wall of Steel which everyone is readily agreeable to being a pretty naff skill now. I'd just like to see a damage buff to our spear gambits to make them worth-while to use, over other lines i.e. fist gambit line. Currently there is NO comparison, is my point.
    ATO and pots were not used, I was removing wounds asap (which i would consider bad manners if I were using true dps gambits), and iirc she never crit on gut punch since GiV was never used (but was in some of our other fights), and obviously the 2 impales used didn't crit. This may not be the best reaver, and I don't think she has a specific strat to use against wardens, but she is certainly a good reaver who knows the class.

    I genuinely don't mean this to be insulting, but if you cannot DPS through a single WL on your warden, you are doing something wrong.

    Obviously things depend a lot on the corruption setup of a given creep, whether they have DoF pots up, are grouped with a WL with protection Aura, or Point Defense banner, etc: but as a rough estimate my max effort dps is down less than 15% (probably more like 10%) because of this change. And I was dpsing through a creep healer by well over a 10% margin of error.
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  9. #9
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    Somebody was stating that the reason spear-bleeds are not viable is because you can't heal? This is not even remotely my point in the slightest.

    My point is that the spear bleeds (power attack line) which used to be a viable line for dps as was fist line, is now dwarfed by fist line, which is sad.

    As for me being unable to dps down a single war leader, that's incorrect, being unable to dps down a war leader whilst being permanently (literally, 100%) chain silenced by 4-5 wargs on the other hand, leaving me with very few gambit options, as well as a knockdown every 10 seconds (or 4-5 if stun immunity bugs out as it so often does) combined with warden's having a slow that misses a disproportionately large % of the time, and wargs who have a great, long duration slow, with a kiting war leader? It's nigh-on impossible to kill one with that set up. I'm not asking to be buffed to win 2v5 despite that nearly always being the fight size (if not 2v5++) all I'm asking is that when the devs fix things, they don't nerf us in the process, any damage loss is uncalled for in the simple process of fixing bugs. I'd like a fighting chance to take down a creep or two 2v5 rather than being unable to dps even one down through the CC and spam debuffs of just 5-6 creeps, of which at least 2 or 3 are not even skilled.

    I simply don't believe that warden's dps in red line justified a nerf, and I'd like to see our spear bleeds upped to do similar damage to what they did prior. I.e. my power attack bleed ticking for less than a reaver's bleeds tick me for, is simply sad.

    EDIT: Just to clear up a point, when I say 100% chain silenced, I'm including spamming First Aid every time it's off CD, using purple potions as well as commendation fear pots. It's still not enough for 10-sec un-DR silences on a 20 sec CD + a 2nd 10 sec silence on a 60 sec CD per warg. 5 silences per minute takes it's toll when you're trying to nuke a kiting, and good, war leader.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Somebody was stating that the reason spear-bleeds are not viable is because you can't heal? This is not even remotely my point in the slightest.

    My point is that the spear bleeds (power attack line) which used to be a viable line for dps as was fist line, is now dwarfed by fist line, which is sad.

    As for me being unable to dps down a single war leader, that's incorrect, being unable to dps down a war leader whilst being permanently (literally, 100%) chain silenced by 4-5 wargs on the other hand, leaving me with very few gambit options, as well as a knockdown every 10 seconds (or 4-5 if stun immunity bugs out as it so often does) combined with warden's having a slow that misses a disproportionately large % of the time, and wargs who have a great, long duration slow, with a kiting war leader? It's nigh-on impossible to kill one with that set up. I'm not asking to be buffed to win 2v5 despite that nearly always being the fight size (if not 2v5++) all I'm asking is that when the devs fix things, they don't nerf us in the process, any damage loss is uncalled for in the simple process of fixing bugs. I'd like a fighting chance to take down a creep or two 2v5 rather than being unable to dps even one down through the CC and spam debuffs of just 5-6 creeps, of which at least 2 or 3 are not even skilled.

    I simply don't believe that warden's dps in red line justified a nerf, and I'd like to see our spear bleeds upped to do similar damage to what they did prior. I.e. my power attack bleed ticking for less than a reaver's bleeds tick me for, is simply sad.

    EDIT: Just to clear up a point, when I say 100% chain silenced, I'm including spamming First Aid every time it's off CD, using purple potions as well as commendation fear pots. It's still not enough for 10-sec un-DR silences on a 20 sec CD + a 2nd 10 sec silence on a 60 sec CD per warg. 5 silences per minute takes it's toll when you're trying to nuke a kiting, and good, war leader.
    You may not have been asking for the exact same thing, but the overall implication is the same. We basically need 6 different gambits to reach >90% of our dps potential. You're saying that you were unable to use 3 of these 6 because of chain silences from an overwhelming force of wargs, and that by being limited to half of your major damage skills you couldn't bring down a healing class. What is the alternative here? Do you really think 3 skills should be enough to bring down a healer? How would that play out when you do have all 6? A single warg's stun and silence capacities can be basically shrugged off by a warden, and here you aren't happy because an overwhelming force of them coordinating silences and stuns prevented you from doing full bore dps. The similarities between what you're arguing for isn't any different from asking to be able to kill things while having time to use all heals skills.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Somebody was stating that the reason spear-bleeds are not viable is because you can't heal? This is not even remotely my point in the slightest.

    My point is that the spear bleeds (power attack line) which used to be a viable line for dps as was fist line, is now dwarfed by fist line, which is sad.

    As for me being unable to dps down a single war leader, that's incorrect, being unable to dps down a war leader whilst being permanently (literally, 100%) chain silenced by 4-5 wargs on the other hand, leaving me with very few gambit options, as well as a knockdown every 10 seconds (or 4-5 if stun immunity bugs out as it so often does) combined with warden's having a slow that misses a disproportionately large % of the time, and wargs who have a great, long duration slow, with a kiting war leader? It's nigh-on impossible to kill one with that set up. I'm not asking to be buffed to win 2v5 despite that nearly always being the fight size (if not 2v5++) all I'm asking is that when the devs fix things, they don't nerf us in the process, any damage loss is uncalled for in the simple process of fixing bugs. I'd like a fighting chance to take down a creep or two 2v5 rather than being unable to dps even one down through the CC and spam debuffs of just 5-6 creeps, of which at least 2 or 3 are not even skilled.

    I simply don't believe that warden's dps in red line justified a nerf, and I'd like to see our spear bleeds upped to do similar damage to what they did prior. I.e. my power attack bleed ticking for less than a reaver's bleeds tick me for, is simply sad.

    EDIT: Just to clear up a point, when I say 100% chain silenced, I'm including spamming First Aid every time it's off CD, using purple potions as well as commendation fear pots. It's still not enough for 10-sec un-DR silences on a 20 sec CD + a 2nd 10 sec silence on a 60 sec CD per warg. 5 silences per minute takes it's toll when you're trying to nuke a kiting, and good, war leader.
    I just can't even fathom expecting the capability to get not one, but TWO kills out of a 2v5 where your opponents are coordinating their skills to the degree you're describing here. I wouldn't expect to walk 15 feet in a 2 vs 5 against 4 burgs and a captain...


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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    You may not have been asking for the exact same thing, but the overall implication is the same. We basically need 6 different gambits to reach >90% of our dps potential. You're saying that you were unable to use 3 of these 6 because of chain silences from an overwhelming force of wargs, and that by being limited to half of your major damage skills you couldn't bring down a healing class.

    No, you're taking it out of proportion. All I'm asking for, is that my bleeds don't get nerfed, when a nerf was totally unnecessary since power attack line gambits were a major source of dps that is now effectively gone, since they tick for so little there is very little point trying to use anything but Unerring strike & it's big bleed. I'm not asking for MORE damage, I'm simply asking for it not to be taken away from me simply as a quick-fix for a bug that a lazy developer introduced in the first place. You say "do you really think three skills should be enough to bring down a healer?" No, of course not, I think that a few enemies should not be able to have me consistently and unbreakably chain-silenced for a several minute long fight with no hope of even getting one kill. Let's be clear, it doesn't even take 5 wargs to perma chain silence a player, it takes 1 good warg, and 1 mediocre warg randomly throwing in silences, to achieve 100% silence unless the opponent is a minstrel using Cry of the Chorus for silence immunity.

    The point isn't the wargs, the silences. It's the fact that we've had dps taken away from us that wasn't necessary. The fact that if I had beleriand bleeds that did reasonable damage to the 75k morale war leader I was fighting, it would've gone down just as I did.

    Not asking for godmode, just asking for the POINT of red-line not to be removed by nerfing it because that's just the easiest way to fix the problem. Minimal effort, so the dev can move onto finding more ways of wrecking lotro pvp and/or the few remaining good things other creeps & freeps have to turn the tide of a battle. Red line is for DPS, so why take away any of our dps when there are classes that parse and burst far higher numbers than us and far more consistently? I'll tell you why, quick fixes.

    As for Sezneg, I was reading the creep forums the other day where you were asking for spiders to have a 12k heal (pet heal) on a 15 second CD, and for the pet to be summonable in combat without a cooldown or induction, so I'll just ignore what you said.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    No, you're taking it out of proportion. All I'm asking for, is that my bleeds don't get nerfed, when a nerf was totally unnecessary since power attack line gambits were a major source of dps that is now effectively gone, since they tick for so little there is very little point trying to use anything but Unerring strike & it's big bleed. I'm not asking for MORE damage, I'm simply asking for it not to be taken away from me simply as a quick-fix for a bug
    You DID receive scaling to the damage on these dots to make up for the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    The point isn't the wargs, the silences. It's the fact that we've had dps taken away from us that wasn't necessary. The fact that if I had beleriand bleeds that did reasonable damage to the 75k morale war leader I was fighting, it would've gone down just as I did.
    You DO Have DOTs which are still capable of bringing said warleader down. The fact that you were prevented from doing so has more to with 4 wargs coordinating to prevent you from doing so. That is not a weakness in your class, that's just you being outnumbered and outgunned. Expecting a different result here IS asking to be overpowered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    Not asking for godmode, just asking for the POINT of red-line not to be removed by nerfing it because that's just the easiest way to fix the problem. Minimal effort, so the dev can move onto finding more ways of wrecking lotro pvp and/or the few remaining good things other creeps & freeps have to turn the tide of a battle. Red line is for DPS, so why take away any of our dps when there are classes that parse and burst far higher numbers than us and far more consistently? I'll tell you why, quick fixes.
    The balance between freep classes is still being addressed, and you should expect further adjustments coming over time from U13 on that really try to address some of this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    As for Sezneg, I was reading the creep forums the other day where you were asking for spiders to have a 12k heal (pet heal) on a 15 second CD, and for the pet to be summonable in combat without a cooldown or induction, so I'll just ignore what you said.
    No idea where you got the idea that I said ANY such thing about "15 seconds cooldown on pet devour"...

    Reading that thread, you seem to have gotten me confused with this guy:

    Quote Originally Posted by loki84 View Post
    if devour was increased to say a 16 second cd it'd be reasonable I think and remove the cd and ooc requirement for pet summoning, add 10k morale and higher damage, state based immunity like the lm pets and problem solved.
    You can feel free to look at my post history and find ANYWHERE where I made a suggestion this dumb. A global cooldown on the devour would need to be 90 seconds as a minimum, and likely closer to 2 minutes.

    Just because some guy with a spider avatar posts something, please don't attribute it to me.


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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    having unmitigated skills is extremely overpowered *AHEM* Impale *AHEM*,

    You should make a thread about how overpowered impale is. See how well it goes for you.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ethrildar View Post
    No, you're taking it out of proportion. All I'm asking for, is that my bleeds don't get nerfed, when a nerf was totally unnecessary since power attack line gambits were a major source of dps that is now effectively gone, since they tick for so little there is very little point trying to use anything but Unerring strike & it's big bleed. I'm not asking for MORE damage, I'm simply asking for it not to be taken away from me simply as a quick-fix for a bug that a lazy developer introduced in the first place. You say "do you really think three skills should be enough to bring down a healer?" No, of course not, I think that a few enemies should not be able to have me consistently and unbreakably chain-silenced for a several minute long fight with no hope of even getting one kill. Let's be clear, it doesn't even take 5 wargs to perma chain silence a player, it takes 1 good warg, and 1 mediocre warg randomly throwing in silences, to achieve 100% silence unless the opponent is a minstrel using Cry of the Chorus for silence immunity.

    The point isn't the wargs, the silences. It's the fact that we've had dps taken away from us that wasn't necessary. The fact that if I had beleriand bleeds that did reasonable damage to the 75k morale war leader I was fighting, it would've gone down just as I did.

    Not asking for godmode, just asking for the POINT of red-line not to be removed by nerfing it because that's just the easiest way to fix the problem. Minimal effort, so the dev can move onto finding more ways of wrecking lotro pvp and/or the few remaining good things other creeps & freeps have to turn the tide of a battle. Red line is for DPS, so why take away any of our dps when there are classes that parse and burst far higher numbers than us and far more consistently? I'll tell you why, quick fixes.

    As for Sezneg, I was reading the creep forums the other day where you were asking for spiders to have a 12k heal (pet heal) on a 15 second CD, and for the pet to be summonable in combat without a cooldown or induction, so I'll just ignore what you said.
    a good warg and a mediocre warg are going to keep me silenced, MAYBE 33% of the time.

    As for the other stuff, agree to disagree I suppose. I went from undoubtedly the highest sustained dps in the moors, to merely being arguably the highest sustained dps in the moors.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    You DID receive scaling to the damage on these dots to make up for the difference.
    For what it's worth, the bleed's base damage was LOWERED, not raised to compensate for no longer being untyped.
    My bleeds that used to have around 1750 base damage (Don't know exact value as I didn't write it down before the patch came) now do ~1500 for example. I'd honestly expected the reverse to happen, ~15% base damage (before mits) increase since normal PvE mobs have ~15% mitigations.

    Since I favor Assailment, bleeds were never a large part of my DPS so it's no big loss for me, just letting you know the base damage was also dropped.
    Gremblus, Seuer, Grinand Bearit, and various others of Arkenstone

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Gremus View Post
    For what it's worth, the bleed's base damage was LOWERED, not raised to compensate for no longer being untyped.
    My bleeds that used to have around 1750 base damage (Don't know exact value as I didn't write it down before the patch came) now do ~1500 for example. I'd honestly expected the reverse to happen, ~15% base damage (before mits) increase since normal PvE mobs have ~15% mitigations.

    Since I favor Assailment, bleeds were never a large part of my DPS so it's no big loss for me, just letting you know the base damage was also dropped.
    Maybe its different in assailment, since I didn't pay too much attention to the exact values there, but my bleed dmg tooltip on into the fray Unerring went from ~1600 (unmitigated) to ~2000 (before mitigations) which fits perfectly with the patch notes. I did see that the 5 length gambit barbed javelin bleed proc is now dealing appropriate values though, which is a 'buff'.

    I found my dps when I specced assailment was HUGELY dependent on bleeds, much more in fact than my dependence on them when in reckless (since they were of slightly lower potency to their equivalent in Light DoTs, before the update). Limited anecdotal evidence from fighting assailment wardens post-update says they're much less troublesome for me as well.
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimrinoth View Post
    When i said that spear bleeds are probably the best option i meant using a spear bleed over onslaught or WOS. I see no reason why you cant use both fist bleeds and spear bleeds at the same time.
    Using both fist and spear lines simultaneously is certainly doable, but why bother? The spear line bleeds on a target with no mitigations and audacity does less than half the damage of the fist line light DoTs, and you get the same secondary DoT chance at 15% from using the SoV line gambits as you do from the spear bleeds, but once again, the secondary DoT ticks at twice the damage as the spear bleeds, so why bother, except for as a filler with Unerring Strike to fill the last couple seconds of your rotation? Fighting against full audacity creeps, it is a complete waste of valuable seconds putting a spear bleed on them compared to your light DoT's, period.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by erebusant View Post
    Using both fist and spear lines simultaneously is certainly doable, but why bother? The spear line bleeds on a target with no mitigations and audacity does less than half the damage of the fist line light DoTs, and you get the same secondary DoT chance at 15% from using the SoV line gambits as you do from the spear bleeds, but once again, the secondary DoT ticks at twice the damage as the spear bleeds, so why bother, except for as a filler with Unerring Strike to fill the last couple seconds of your rotation? Fighting against full audacity creeps, it is a complete waste of valuable seconds putting a spear bleed on them compared to your light DoT's, period.
    Are you trying to suggest its better to re-apply a DoT before its expired because it has a 15% chance to have a double effect than to apply an additional DoT worth roughly 50% of the potency?
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremus View Post
    For what it's worth, the bleed's base damage was LOWERED, not raised to compensate for no longer being untyped.
    My bleeds that used to have around 1750 base damage (Don't know exact value as I didn't write it down before the patch came) now do ~1500 for example. I'd honestly expected the reverse to happen, ~15% base damage (before mits) increase since normal PvE mobs have ~15% mitigations.

    Since I favor Assailment, bleeds were never a large part of my DPS so it's no big loss for me, just letting you know the base damage was also dropped.
    A massive portion of Assailment dps comes from the 50% bleed proc chance, especially in pvp where a ranged WoS crit hits for numbers less than half what they did at 85. As for a 15% base damage increase, correct, I can now (With recklessness red lne capstone activated for 20 seconds) get around 2.9k base damage on Big Bleed, but since it's Beleriand, it's still a huge DPS loss, before, the same bleed with same buffs would've been sitting at around 2.3k but per-tick would be actually doing 2.3k, as opposed to now doing more like 1.3-1.8k on a crit on a ranked, high audacity creep. Going from 4.8k bleed pulse crits with big bleed, to ~2k is a massive nerf. 4.8k pulses were a little bit overpowerful but no more so than many many other classes dps skills, alongside the fact that I'd have been totally happy with a reasonable increase to at least put their crit pulses somewhere reasonably comparable to the unmitigated. I will state again that unmitigated bleeds were overpowered not because they hit hard, but because they ignored all crit D corruptions, audacity, and bubbles. Making them mitigated (and crit def debuffed etc. etc.) has resulted in a huge loss of damage per bleed, so whacking another 2 or 300 damage onto it was not enough.

    Somebody mentioned about impale being op, well I'm not saying impale is overpowered because of how hard it hits, I'm saying it's overpowered because it can hit me for 2.3k x4 +2k through a captain bubble, even more so, now, since they nerfed cappy bubbles. Again, damage doesn't need changing for reavers OR wardens, the unmitigated..ness.. Needs(needed) changing.

    Someone also mentioned re-applying light dots is more effective than applying spear dots because light dots do more damage, this would only work if your timing was perfect, purely through gambits such as Spear of Virtue doing massive initial damage alongside the 15% proc chance for a secondary bleed. (Having done up to 21k damage in PVE purely using Spear of Virtues initial hits + 1st instant bleed pulses, and getting figures of more like 6k damage from Unerring...) Spear bleeds are just not that effective to use anymore and that needs to be addressed. It's easy to say oh well warden's are powerful so they don't need massive class issues fixing, because that suits creeps and people who don't play wardens, but as a Warden, having a massive portion of your damage simply taken away is a pain in the ###. ESPECIALLY when I solo and permanently fight 1v2-3-4-5-6+ Beforehand I may have bled out a warg before the remainder of the croup got to me and nuked me down, now that chance is minimal having only 3 decent bleeds worth applying rather than 6.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by erebusant View Post
    Using both fist and spear lines simultaneously is certainly doable, but why bother? The spear line bleeds on a target with no mitigations and audacity does less than half the damage of the fist line light DoTs, and you get the same secondary DoT chance at 15% from using the SoV line gambits as you do from the spear bleeds, but once again, the secondary DoT ticks at twice the damage as the spear bleeds, so why bother, except for as a filler with Unerring Strike to fill the last couple seconds of your rotation? Fighting against full audacity creeps, it is a complete waste of valuable seconds putting a spear bleed on them compared to your light DoT's, period.
    I would bother because it another couple of dots. And another dot means more damage. I don't see what you lose by taking the time to apply the spear bleeds in addition to the fist dots.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Maybe its different in assailment, since I didn't pay too much attention to the exact values there, but my bleed dmg tooltip on into the fray Unerring went from ~1600 (unmitigated) to ~2000 (before mitigations) which fits perfectly with the patch notes. I did see that the 5 length gambit barbed javelin bleed proc is now dealing appropriate values though, which is a 'buff'.

    I found my dps when I specced assailment was HUGELY dependent on bleeds, much more in fact than my dependence on them when in reckless (since they were of slightly lower potency to their equivalent in Light DoTs, before the update). Limited anecdotal evidence from fighting assailment wardens post-update says they're much less troublesome for me as well.
    Okay, apparently I was bugged yesterday; once I logged in today my (melee) Unerring bleed is ~2k, and Ranged Unerring is ~1700, so only a small damage drop on ranged. I haven't changed any of my gear in weeks and phys. mastery was the same yesterday as today, so I don't know what caused this error.

    The length 5 barbed javelin does deals appropriate damage, but barbed javelin bleeds for length 2, 3, 4 were lowered as well. Formerly ~900, ~1400, ~1750, they are now ~600, ~900, ~1200, and length 5 ~1500. I figured it was okay because 1) the gains are much more even, in my case ~309 damage per gambit, whereas before the distribution was uneven; and 2) Shatter does enough damage now that it's worth removing a bleed for.

    I can imagine that moors Assailment damage was heavily dependant on bleeds, but I spent very little time in Moors since HD on my warden because I didn't want to ride broken bleeds or gimp myself to avoid them. For PvE, upfront damage is better.
    Gremblus, Seuer, Grinand Bearit, and various others of Arkenstone

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Gremus View Post
    Okay, apparently I was bugged yesterday; once I logged in today my (melee) Unerring bleed is ~2k, and Ranged Unerring is ~1700, so only a small damage drop on ranged. I haven't changed any of my gear in weeks and phys. mastery was the same yesterday as today, so I don't know what caused this error.

    The length 5 barbed javelin does deals appropriate damage, but barbed javelin bleeds for length 2, 3, 4 were lowered as well. Formerly ~900, ~1400, ~1750, they are now ~600, ~900, ~1200, and length 5 ~1500. I figured it was okay because 1) the gains are much more even, in my case ~309 damage per gambit, whereas before the distribution was uneven; and 2) Shatter does enough damage now that it's worth removing a bleed for.

    I can imagine that moors Assailment damage was heavily dependant on bleeds, but I spent very little time in Moors since HD on my warden because I didn't want to ride broken bleeds or gimp myself to avoid them. For PvE, upfront damage is better.
    Gotcha, and thanks for posting all the actual values.
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  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Are you trying to suggest its better to re-apply a DoT before its expired because it has a 15% chance to have a double effect than to apply an additional DoT worth roughly 50% of the potency?
    No, I'm suggesting that by the time you've built and applied all your DoT's, and heal debuffs, even with using masteries to build your gambits your 1st light DoT has ticked down, and then it is time to reapply it. Desolation, top 2 in SoV line, potency, Adroit maneuver x2 for 25% heal Debuff, throw in top tier bleed for half the damage of your light DoT and by that time your top tier light DoT is expired. Why waste the time applying Bleeds that do half the damage as Light DoT's when you have no overlap in your light DoTs? And the point regarding the light DoTs is use the Fi-Sp line, not the Fi-Sh because they have the opportunity to give you the secondary DoT, and if you happen to get lucky enough for it to proc, the damage from the secondary DoT in the Fi-Sp line is going to provide you with a hell of a lot more damage over time than the secondary DoT from the Power Attack line. The bleeds are simply an inefficient use of gambits, but whatever you would prefer.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nimrinoth View Post
    I would bother because it another couple of dots. And another dot means more damage. I don't see what you lose by taking the time to apply the spear bleeds in addition to the fist dots.
    I certainly must be the slowest gambit builder in this game then, because I find it fairly impossible to build and apply all those gambits in 20 secs... I must be old..

 

 
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