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  1. #1

    For the love of wardens!!

    Just feeling a little unhappy right now, with wardens. Once upon a time I stumbled across this class, looking for a new challenge, one i'll refer to as 'agro management' I fell in love with gambits, and how you had to build up and try to predict how the fight would go. yes EoB was a powerful tool back then... Isengard came out, and wardens took a nose dive, the type where you know they will be sorted, and they were. We then got told about class changes, I was a little sceptical, I didn't want change, but I embraced the new changes and eventually gave into them. EoB was replaced with conviction as the taunt of choice, no biggy really. We were still in roughly the same space.

    Along comes Helms Deep, and again massive class changes. I tried again to like them, I really did, but don't want my agro to be determined by how much dps we push out, we are not a dps class, or at least shouldn't be but it feels like we are being pushed down this route. Yes, I can increase it to get agro, at the cost of giving my healers heart failure or some sort of finger chaffing complaint, not where I want to be... I still don't know why we became single clicky for taunt, but we did. I can't get rid of the memory of how our agro used to work with leeching, and the requests to the raid leader for the hunters & champs to be put in my group! I guess we'll change again when/if a next expansion comes out, but right now playing feels like complete sacrilege.

    Changes this significant can only stop people playing. It will not attract new people to play the class/game, those that played wardens/lotro did so because they liked wardens/lotro. And these are the people you are affecting, the ones who already like the class/game. I dread to think how many man hours it took to change our class so significantly, and in such a bad way

    So i'll wait, and sorry, but i'll find something else to play properly until the next lotro expansion Kinda missing things to tank this expansion anyway :P

    So long, and thanks for all the fish,

    Aeo

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Toulouse, France
    Posts
    158
    +1 for your post!

    Everytime I play my warden I'm thinking "Turbine, why on earth did you changed the threat mechanics on the warden?".
    Yesterday night, with kinnies we were doing Iorbar's peak and the final boss (which I was not tanking as the kinny was a guard). I said to him that I would send some heal through conviction (in tank build) and care of the dwarves trying to burn the egg.
    With the HD threat system, almost no possibilty to damage the boss without taking aggro on it. Getting aggro seems to turn to a dps race.

    The pre-HD system was in my opinion much better, because it had more versability (also we could solid aggro on mobs without making them some damage, so without breaking cc). Please give back the old threat mechanics, with threat leeches and not tied to damage).

  3. #3
    When I first started playing I tried every class, and even bought Rune-keeper and Warden to try as well. Like you, OP, I fell in love with the Warden. It was amazing. In solo I was constantly trying different ways to fight tougher and tougher mobs by myself, some ways would work better than others, but that was the joy of it. Not every battle would go to plan and you'd have to know your gambits to get you out of sticky situations if you hoped to survive. In fellowships I was a so-so tanker, never did it enough to really get the hang of it, but the same as above applies. Some things needed a totally different way of tanking, and you really had to know your gambits. Ost Dunhoth Wound wing was one such. It was brutal to try and grab the other two elephants from the different corridors, since aggro had already been built up on them. However it was possible, and really rewarding when it worked.

    Long story short. After HD, I just didn't feel like the same Warden. So I actually rerolled as a different class. I'm not an altaholic, and I'd rather do everything over again than play a class I don't enjoy playing.

    Bertrus Broadleaf - Landroval
    Last edited by druidofbreeland; Jan 24 2014 at 02:09 PM.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Italy
    Posts
    47
    Yeah, warden was a special class, a different one!
    As they say in the advertisement, warden was a challenge

    And then came ROI and wardens were broken, then the fixed them and wardens became op....
    Then a number of fixes and wardens went a little up, a little down, a little up, a little down.... but always enjoyable!

    But now, with these last changes, wardens are not more the same: a different flavour, a different feeling: before tanking was a matter of elegance, now they are not different from another random class in a random game.

    I really don't understand why, even with the changes in the threat management, they have taken away aggro leeches. Were they so problematic to be managed? Can a blue name explain me this?
    Why now, in this game, it's only a matter of dps?

    I'm waiting to level my main, my warden, hoping in future improvements. It's not fun anymore.

  5. #5
    Same feelings here.
    First: Aggro system, I just don't like it now. It has way huge limitations and is way easier (just use DC if you lose it and it's all yours), if you wanna tank a mob who is immune to damage at some part of the fight, you just can't do anything, only self heal if you're not at max morale, I didn't like this change at all.
    Second: Wardens are now a second or third line tanks for raids (or will be when content gets properly scaled), since guardians and captains are incredibly tough tanks and wardens are squishier even than before (we could use a mit/avoid % trait or passive one by specializing blue).

    So for me class specializations made exactly the opposite, given they now grant 3k+vitality as secondary stat for every class, which means capped mitigation for everyone. Right now my hunter is receiving same hit magnitude as my warden (not critical hits) and any champion or captain dps traited receives hits 40% lower than my warden (again no crits given critical defence). Every class is just absurd, tanks dealing high dps to get aggro, dps classes getting capped mitigations even on glass cannon build. Honestly, they only raised up mitigations and damage with class changes, I think nothing else was made a significant change (apart from making the game way easier).

  6. #6
    Sadly I agree with this post 100%. The elimination of threat leach gambits and the lack of new instances has caused me to devote my attention to a different game. I still login once a week to say hello to friends but no longer do I play every night for several hours like I used to.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    376
    I actually stopped playing the game because of how Turbine ####ed up all of the freep classes and made Warden so ridiculously different. I've spent over three years playing my Warden and now I don't even recognize him.

  8. #8
    The developers tried to do too much and made the warden too much like other classes. I agree with this thread that driving agro through leaches made the warden more complex and interesting. I stopped playing my warden for a long time. I only use him now for warg hunts in the Moors. On the other hand I enjoy playing my Cappy more.

  9. #9
    I agree - I want my Warden back!

    The gambit scheme as a user/game interface was a unique experience and, well, what can I say, it was the best. It wasn't the standard push a button and wait for a cool down, the user controlled (as much as the user can control a computer) the flow.

    Then along came the War Steed. When you are on a horse, what is the difference between the Warden and any other character type? Oh, that's right, the animation. And the names of the buttons you push. Push a button, wait for a cool down.

    I suppose if there had never been a Warden with a Gambit Interface I wouldn't miss it. But once you've had the taste...

    And now we appear to be headed down the road to, dare I say it, becoming a Hunter.

    I want my Warden back!

  10. #10
    I Agree, I want my warden to be unique again!

    Pre-HD, my warden was one of my favorite classes and was amazing. I could tank, and tank well if i really paid attention. I had one kinnie who played a Warden and never figured out how to tank well, so he would always DPS. Now, post-HD, he sure is having a blast being a DPS class, but both of us agree tanking on the warden isn't like it used to be. Its no different than tanking on a guard, and since guards have more taunts on them, I might as well go roll one.

    I guess what kept me sane was that my main character was a Hunter, and i still enjoy him :P
    Zacharr -- 100 -- Hunter -- Firefoot. I guess that's the new character signature :P

  11. #11

    Unhappy

    I couldn't agree more. My warden is frozen at 85. I loved how threat management flowed. EoB. Didn't pull agro? Let me get conviction up. Well I got most the agro, but that champ has one target. Build my single target threat leech and use it. Awesome! Now I have all targets. Build EoB again to make sure I hold it.

    Thinking about how it used to work and how much fun I had doing it makes me feel even worse about how our class is now. We aren't so much broken as we are desecrated. What we were, we are not. A one click skill for threat feels vile and wrong. I think only Wardens could feel so adamant about something. People who play a Warden don't play them in a casual manner. A Warden is a difficult class and is not for the faint of heart. There is no "just press random buttons and hope for the best" play style. We are the martial artists of LotRO.

    I don't understand why the threat system needed to be changed at all. Sure, it is a whole heck-of-a-lot simpler and easy to understand now, but I don't feel that is a good reason to change something. If you were worried about threat and pulling targets, you were part of a fellowship or raid. That means you were doing group content, which tends to be hard. If it tends to be hard, usually the people that play it are the ones invested in their class. If you are invested in your class then you will figure out how you class works and how the threat system works. The complaint of threat being overly complicated just doesn't make sense to me.

    Hopefully you can understand what I was trying to relate. I'm hoping the old threat system will make a comeback and that our skills will return to the way they were pre-HD. Well, that's my two cents. Cheers.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Daugon View Post
    Hopefully you can understand what I was trying to relate. I'm hoping the old threat system will make a comeback and that our skills will return to the way they were pre-HD. Well, that's my two cents. Cheers.
    No way they will do that. That would mean they admit that change was bad and they wasted a lot of money for implementing it, although it's what game needs, but everything went way easier nowadays so people can focus on the only thing that Turbine seems to care right now: PVP, which is the way they get most of their money incomes. They want everything in landscape to be easy, really easy, so everyone can complete everything and get good gear easily for PVP, or just for piece collectors.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Toulouse, France
    Posts
    158
    Well I'm not sure deny the mistakes made is a good thing; of course money is wasted and it can be hard to say we were wrong... But I'm almost sure that many people in beta told Turbine they went in a wrong direction (and players still do), it's not a fancy pass of players, they want to have a better game.

    I would love to have pre HD threat mechanics too... In HD many classes went over simplified, the game itself is now so easy. Denying that is not what to do!

  14. #14
    Agree 100%. I rolled a hunter originally (who doesn't?), and found myself getting beaten in spars by wardens 10-15 levels lower than me. So when my hunter burned out mid to late 50's, I went and got warden. Now I didn't just go buy it, because I was 13 and had no money. Nope, I had to go out and mow some guy's lawn, then I could get it. It was absolutely worth it, and by the time I found the old post from the waden forums days I was hooked. I always spell cooky the right way when I can get away with it, and all that other stuff. RoR came along three or so months into my wadening, and all that I found changed was morale taps not stacking, and it was no big deal. The instances were a bit of a let down compared to the ones I was doing well leveling (moria is the best IC they've ever made). Probably the most important thing I noticed about lotro was how threat worked. It was the first mmo I'd played with a real threat system, and I loved it. I spent the time to learn how to use the class, and by the time I was 75 I was keeping aggro from decent 85 champs in turtle and DN, while doing a good deal of my own healing. Now here comes HD. What were they thinking? The new threat system is a joke! A Joke! That's the kind of threat they have in kiddie games! Warden went from being the best class in any game ever, and making LOTRO my favorite game of all time, to just a sad shadow of what it used to be. Before HD, I told myself that I wouldn't get all upset if they did things to the class, and I wouldn't rage quit or anything, but when I heard that they were switching to dps based threat, I just spent the last few weeks enjoying what I could. The day before scheduled release, I logged onto the game with my fairly recently dinged 85 warden, and tanked Vile Maw one last time (my absolute favorite instance, esp with threat leaches and resounding challenge). I've played since, and I've really tried to enjoy the changes, but I just don't have the heart to tank like this, when I know how great it used to be. Warden wasn't broken. All they had to do was translate what we had to skill trees and reduce the magnitude of heals and EoB, and we'd be as balanced as the next class, but instead they went and ripped the heart of the class. Now I just wish I'd started the game a little earlier, and been here for when the waden forums were the cool place they were, but I'll never get to see that except in years old posts and my pseudo-warden build in rift (and whatever other game I can go for one in).

  15. #15
    I am glad that I am not the only one feeling this way. The warden is my 3rd main but probably my favourite. I recently hit 95 but that was out of some sense of duty. A kin mate who hasn't played their warden since the cap was 60 came back to check things out. He was totally at a loss on the new warden (as he should be the warden went thru many major changes before the class revamps). After a long conversation and running him through some skirmishes to get the feel of the new warden he described what I was feeling. The warden isn't as fun as it used to be. I still have fun from time to time but that involves trying to do instances solo. The warden feel is gone. They are still uber in some ways but the play style is not the same. I really liked the old school way of tanking even if it took a few seconds to get complete aggro.

    It is sad that of all the class changes I was lamenting most was the RK and how it doesn't feel like the old RK. With all the cash outs and the attunement basically being like a hunters focus or champs. The clunky way to change to healing on the fly. The role had changed dramatically IMO. But I didn't feel as disjointed and disconnected to the new RK as I am with the warden. I rarely do anything on the class that I spent more hours experimenting and trying to learn then any of my other toons.

    I wish the dev understood the warden more. Maybe he/she does but the warden was a very unique class and that uniqueness is no longer there imo.
    they are all dead.. they just don't know it yet....

  16. #16

    Money talks

    And i said goodbye to my warden and lotro. I respect myself way too much to play atm.

  17. #17
    I have not played in a few months since being disappointed with the
    big aggro mechanics change. The loss of aggro leaching and move to
    DPS-only based aggro was for me a big downturn. Interesting to check
    the forum after being away and see that several wardens feel the same.

  18. #18
    I left and will not be back unless they really fix this game. When we can take on 20-30 mobs at once and just spam one gambit to survive there is something wrong. Beyond that there is nothing on the horizon of any interest and I suspect they no longer have the resources to make it to Gondor let alone Mordor. I have no confidence in their ability to do anything more than continually make poor decisions which they have done ever since ROR launched and they fired/lost what good devs they had left and clearly replaced them with kids straight out of college.

  19. #19
    Damage based threat is just silly. I know noting about how lotro works and very little of any sort of programming, but surely you could tidy up the back end of the threat system without swapping to damage based. Also, if it's a choice between a tidy back end and a far better gameplay experience, I'm not sure that tidiness is the choice to make. I honestly just can't enjoy the game with the new threat changes.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wannabe_falconer View Post
    I honestly just can't enjoy the game with the new threat changes.
    Not only you.
    Separating threat and damage was one of few things I thought as really great concept. Both in game mechanics (usually tanks are either best dpsers, or someone first to be seen by mob, realy terrible and out of reality concept), and in terms of lore (Imagine guard taunting pack of orcs, just think about it for just a sec. Or warden crying and crying and doing some fierce unpredictable moves...Not doing damage, but by savege behaviour 'persuading' most enemies to attack him/her).
    When I first read preHD notes about incoming changes, I was like 'you guys are seriously destroying one of your best concepts?!?'.

  21. #21
    hey everyone..question..I dont play a warden..However..I am researching this info for a friend of mine who has a warden but does not like to tank and is not good at it anyway! can the Warden be traited for pure dps to be usefull in a group? if so.....how can I do so.? Please help, his toon is 93 and I would hate to think this toon is a waste since he dont want to tank.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    California
    Posts
    466
    Quote Originally Posted by Ehss View Post
    hey everyone..question..I dont play a warden..However..I am researching this info for a friend of mine who has a warden but does not like to tank and is not good at it anyway! can the Warden be traited for pure dps to be usefull in a group? if so.....how can I do so.? Please help, his toon is 93 and I would hate to think this toon is a waste since he dont want to tank.
    I asked about this a while back. Opinion seems to be that red dps is quite decent, and at this point I'd agree with the second reply that blue seems to dps very nearly as well. Gambit mastery resets on evade ftw!

    At this point I've trashed my red spec and put together a yellow one to try out a ranged dps role. Haven't gotten a chance to use it yet; looking at the gambits, traits, etc. it's not clear it will be a very effective setup. But I have a burglar and champ on the same server, so I certainly don't need more melee dps options, and this is the only character who can even attempt to fill a ranged role.

    If you are who I think you are, we can discuss it in the kin forums or in-game too.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by J_Howell View Post
    At this point I've trashed my red spec and put together a yellow one to try
    I did same with yellow. While I don't have numbers (never used plugins and never will as in my opinion they somehow kill the fun) yellow line is semi-good only for AOE grouped mobs. But still much worse than our meele dps.
    Also I read that our mitigation debuffs don't work as should, not increasing damage dealt.
    The only time when I have found yellow line somehow useful were defensive skirmishes where all mobs spawn in one place and when there is short time between waves to reset all those 3 epic AoE skills and 1 gambit.

    For now I use red/blue and blue/red trait lines. Unless I'm tanking something more difficult (yeah...so many such things) or dpsing single target boss, there is really not much difference between those two, and in most instances I don't even check what traitline I'm currently using.
    Last edited by Galwir; Mar 17 2014 at 05:28 PM.

  24. #24
    I find the lack of turbine developers here highly disturbing...

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeblot1 View Post
    I find the lack of turbine developers here highly disturbing...
    What did you expect!? We're just asking to undo changes on threat mechanics, that honestly will make tanking again interesting, will allow armour to have less secondary stats since we wouldn't need that insane amount of dps stats, allowing dps armour to have less vitality and allowing mitigation change to be undone too. THAT would fix most of the problems game has right now. Rest would just be make enemies deal a bit more damage, and done. Everyone with max of 10k morale if you're dps, and with low mitigations on glass cannon builds, captains with a bit more, and tanks with a really higher amount, to be true tanks, if a DPS takes aggro on a boss, dps should die, even on 6 man instances, there's one of the most important things to manage on dps way.
    Also, now we have the same problem, a dps champion can have same mitigations than a tanking captain, just by using same traits and consumable items, same as a hunter or burglar vs tanking warden. That is wrong, plain wrong.

    I beg you: If any developer is reading this, would you, at least, consider to take away those changes (aggro mechanics, mitigation change, secondary stat on armour) and only keep class revamps? (that even though it needs some fixes, you would only need to fix one thing with class traits, not everything in the game)

    [I just want to know if I should keep my hope or just stop tanking forever since like this I don't enjoy tanking, either easy or hard content].

 

 
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