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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Gear and buffs (other than LIs I suppose) are irrelevant to the discussion, which is centered around the fact that this class has easy, instant access to strong DPS or strong survivability, or a very significant amount of both at the same time, all within the confines of a single trait setup.
    Seems I'm not the only one going in circles here.
    Gear and buffs ARE totally relevant for the discussion. You don't tank Erebor raids (which are the only content difficulty that seems to be slightly balanced) with DPS gear, do you? And once the difficulty of all the content has been fixed, tanking gear will be needed in most Raids. So yeah, of course you have to have Tanking Gear/Threat relation in mind.

    There was an obvious damage increase in HD which is totally justified by the lack of other threat resources as we used to have.
    Hence the need of that increase of DPS explained by Deviled Egg in Beta, as you well know. Again, take a look at the parses, tell me how OP damage we are dealing while fully geared for tanking.
    What you don't seem to understand is that lowering damage just with PvP in mind will deeply affect PvE: if you lower the damage in Blue Line, you'd put Warden's threat in a really bad situation. But sadly that doesn't seem to bother some people at all.

    The problem here is PvP, period. That's why all this discussion has come up. But that's a problem of fixing the damage type /mitigation bypasses in both sides - not lowering the class' damage.


    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    This is important for BOTH sides in PvMP. Those who see their opponents as nothing more than infamy/renown nodes do more harm to the quality of PvMP in this game ON BOTH sides than the Devs ever have.
    Couldn't agree more. But let me add something else:
    Those who want to change a class for their own interests in PvP do more harm to the quality of the class in PvE than the Devs ever had.

  2. #27
    Join Date
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    There was an obvious damage increase in HD which is totally justified by the lack of other threat resources as we used to have.
    Hence the need of that increase of DPS explained by Deviled Egg in Beta, as you well know. Again, take a look at the parses, tell me how OP damage we are dealing while fully geared for tanking.
    It doesn't follow logically from the fact that we needed 'more dps' that the amount of dps we can do currently isn't too much. Now certainly our aoe tanking capacity will probably suffer if our overall damage is nerfed while in blue line; however, considering the fact that the 'problem' is caused by our ST damage skills being so strong, especially if we cross-trait, a case could be made to make our AoE skills do a bit more damage and our ST bleeds a tad less, while in blue tree.
    What you don't seem to understand is that lowering damage just with PvP in mind will deeply affect PvE: if you lower the damage in Blue Line, you'd put Warden's threat in a really bad situation. But sadly that doesn't seem to bother some people at all.
    I fail to see why it would be all that hard for the devs to up warden threat multipliers while leaving other classes' threat MPs untouched. That may or may not be desirable from the PoV of blue-traited wardens that want to do other things than tanking while blue-traited, but that strikes me as a different issue.
    The problem here is PvP, period. That's why all this discussion has come up. But that's a problem of fixing the damage type /mitigation bypasses in both sides - not lowering the class' damage.
    Well that and creep class buffs for classes other than reavers.
    Couldn't agree more. But let me add something else:
    Those who want to change a class for their own interests in PvP do more harm to the quality of the class in PvE than the Devs ever had.
    I'm sorry, but this statement is just silly. A large part of the reason why wardens can do so much damage while in blue traits is because a large number of our blue traits simply don't meaningfully contribute (and will not contribute) to our survivability, so that it doesn't harm us at all to leave them out. This will be true no matter how the content is rebalanced, because of the fact that the traits are just that useless. (The only change in survivability that might affect us would come from changes to the amount of morale we get from vit, mitigation from the relevant stats, etc.) As such, even once content is rebalanced, we would (all else the same) still be able to dominate the way we can now if it weren't for the fact that some of us are self-nerfing, and others are #### players who hardly know the class but who survive because they run around with pet healers while dishing out lots of damage. But while I was in the moors the past few weeks, the only reason I died at all (ignoring zergs) in 1v1s/against mediocre small groups was because I wasn't using any heals. If I had been, I doubt I'd ever have died at all. And that fact strikes me as a bit silly, tbh. Now certainly, a lot of the kills I got from gramscamp boredom were a function of assailment bleeds that I wouldn't have access to while blue-traited, but I couldn't care less about getting fewer of those if the rest of the map would become part of the playing map again..
    Having said that, I would be more interested in first seeing other creep classes being buffed a bit, because we're hardly the only class that's nigh-invincible in solo encounters.
    Last edited by rannion; Jan 26 2014 at 10:57 AM.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    It doesn't follow logically from the fact that we needed 'more dps' that the amount of dps we can do currently isn't too much. Now certainly our aoe tanking capacity will probably suffer if our overall damage is nerfed while in blue line; however, considering the fact that the 'problem' is caused by our ST damage skills being so strong, especially if we cross-trait, a case could be made to make our AoE skills do a bit more damage and our ST bleeds a tad less, while in blue tree.
    This the exactly the point why testing damage output in full tanking gear/traits is relevant here, if you minimally care about PvE. Warden's DPS in Blue line seems to be conceived to produce enough aggro to hold a mob against the crazy damage DPS classes can do now, with tanking gear & traits.
    And it is working very good, probably the part that is working best in tanking right now, because it gives enough threat margin to not having to use DPS gear to tank, and enough threat margin to be able to selfheal/buff up without having to constantly use a DoT rotation to keep the mob on us.

    As a side effect, it's becoming somewhat OP in Ettens.
    But nerfing the damage in Blue for this reason will only mess up one of the few things that is working properly in PvE (single target threat)- WITH the actual mechanics and Threat multipliers we have right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    I fail to see why it would be all that hard for the devs to up warden threat multipliers while leaving other classes' threat MPs untouched. That may or may not be desirable from the PoV of blue-traited wardens that want to do other things than tanking while blue-traited, but that strikes me as a different issue.
    I don't know either, I guess Devs have their own reasons. Maybe they think it's not important enough, or are not aware of the DoTs problem in Ettens, in which case these type of discussions (silly and smart comments included) can only help. And have in mind you are the first one to bring a good alternative to fix PvP that wouldn't damage PvE, or at least having PvE in consideration. I don't know how complicated is that to implement, or if it would be all more simple just by fixing the root of of the problem that is DoTs going unmitigated in The Moors. Whatever the fix is, as long as our Threat potential is not reduced while in Blue, why not.

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Brazil
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    186
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Those who see their opponents as nothing more than infamy/renown nodes do more harm to the quality of PvMP in this game ON BOTH sides than the Devs ever have.
    Wise words. Wise words.
    [B]Hergon[/B] (r11 warden - BW - former Fearghus from Crickhollow)
    [B]Nietotchka[/B] (r10 captain - BW - former Herja from Crickhollow)

  5. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
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    522
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    This the exactly the point why testing damage output in full tanking gear/traits is relevant here, if you minimally care about PvE. Warden's DPS in Blue line seems to be conceived to produce enough aggro to hold a mob against the crazy damage DPS classes can do now, with tanking gear & traits.
    And it is working very good, probably the part that is working best in tanking right now, because it gives enough threat margin to not having to use DPS gear to tank, and enough threat margin to be able to selfheal/buff up without having to constantly use a DoT rotation to keep the mob on us.
    Presumably.. problem is, DE doesn't seem to realize that many of the blue traits are simply irrelevant to tanking survivability, and inferior choices when it comes to threat (==dps) generation. However, I don't see that changing (for people who can think outside the box a little) even *if* we get more interesting blue traits, unless we will actually need enough of those for survival while tanking to prevent us from traiting as deeply into red as we can now. And even then, the choice to trait that way will remain open for people who go into the moors. The only way to prevent that would be to just put a outgoing dmg debuff on the whole trait line.
    I did (use to) care about pve, though that care took a large hit when "individualized loot" was rolled out, with its biased RNG that never gave me anything, especially from ncf/sth/fornost, combined with the v1 faceroll experience (HD being v2).

    I don't know either, I guess Devs have their own reasons. Maybe they think it's not important enough, or are not aware of the DoTs problem in Ettens, in which case these type of discussions (silly and smart comments included) can only help. And have in mind you are the first one to bring a good alternative to fix PvP that wouldn't damage PvE, or at least having PvE in consideration. I don't know how complicated is that to implement, or if it would be all more simple just by fixing the root of of the problem that is DoTs going unmitigated in The Moors. Whatever the fix is, as long as our Threat potential is not reduced while in Blue, why not.
    We'll see.. Tbh, I doubt that adding damage types to our bleeds will change things *that* much, unless they plan to leave FW/OC damage as they are now.
    It will certainly impact our assailment performance, but melee? I'm not all that convinced.
    Last edited by rannion; Jan 29 2014 at 09:07 AM.

 

 
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