We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 30
  1. #1

    Shield Tactics - Daze, Knock Down immunity

    I want back daze and knock down immunity on Shield Tactics gambit. In RoR we had daze and knock down immunity within Determination trait line set bonuses. After class revamp, we lost it. Can you bring it back, since shield tactics gambit is exclusive for blue trait line and now it is almost useless, mainly in instances.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    622
    Great survivability and unmitigatable bleeds and you need more? Okay then.

  3. #3
    I hate our unmitigatable bleeds, due to this we have so bad reputation in Ettenmoors. I understand your pain, but I am talking about blue line and tanking in instances, we cannot use Shield Tactics gambit in red or yellow dps line. For example I want use Shield Tactics gambit in Sword Halls to get immunity when marrowwalk has induction or in Stoneheight boss fight. In RoR this gambit was used to foresee dazes in some situations and it perfectly fits to warden play style, now it is gone and our tanking isn't as much smooth.
    Last edited by Krindel; Jan 23 2014 at 07:18 AM.
    Laurelin: Kinship - Outcasts
    Ilwee - Warden, Krindel - Minstrel, Krinborn - Lore-Master

  4. #4
    Good point there. And I'll add a bit more (as suggested in other posts): extend the SI duration a bit more too or lower the cd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    Great survivability and unmitigatable bleeds and you need more? Okay then.
    High survivavility = BLUE tree = low DoTs
    Low survivavility = RED tree = high DoTs

    Can't trait for 2 trees at a time. Really isn't that hard to understand.
    And yes, there is still a lot more to be done to the class, specially in the tanking area and Assailment.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    Good point there. And I'll add a bit more (as suggested in other posts): extend the SI duration a bit more too or lower the cd.



    High survivavility = BLUE tree = low DoTs
    Low survivavility = RED tree = high DoTs

    Can't trait for 2 trees at a time. Really isn't that hard to understand.
    And yes, there is still a lot more to be done to the class, specially in the tanking area and Assailment.
    The dps we're capable of in our tank line is vastly superior to that of the other tanking classes, and the DoTs aren't really that much lower at all.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  6. #6
    I agree, our damage in tank stance is very good, probably best. I don't like force taunts, so I am happy that we have so much ways to keep threat without it (40m range, best dots, heal). We are medium armor class and we have big problem when we lose our avoidances under stun/daze effects. I want some option to avoid being stunned and return of 10s daze/knock down immunity to Shield Tactics gambit could be good way. I know, we have our new Steadfast skill, but with 2 minutes cd it is not sufficient.
    Laurelin: Kinship - Outcasts
    Ilwee - Warden, Krindel - Minstrel, Krinborn - Lore-Master

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    The dps we're capable of in our tank line is vastly superior to that of the other tanking classes, and the DoTs aren't really that much lower at all.
    What do you mean?
    The damage we do is indeed way lower than our DPS output if geared/traited for tanking, and it's totally manageable in The Moors.
    In fact, it goes easily to less than half the damage.
    Doing only DPS rotation (light DoTs + Bleeds):

    Turtle tanking gear/traits = 2,3k-2,5k DPS
    Turtle DPS gear/traits = 6,2k DPS

    [/URL]
    [/URL]

    And I'm still using 2 DPS pieces in my tanking gear.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    What do you mean?
    The damage we do is indeed way lower than our DPS output if geared/traited for tanking, and it's totally manageable in The Moors.
    In fact, it goes easily to less than half the damage.
    Doing only DPS rotation (light DoTs + Bleeds):

    Turtle tanking gear/traits = 2,3k-2,5k DPS
    Turtle DPS gear/traits = 6,2k DPS

    [/URL]
    [/URL]

    And I'm still using 2 DPS pieces in my tanking gear.
    You're comparing a dps build with a tanking build AND a dps traitline with a tanking traitline. The loss of PM and more importantly crit rating in the tank build is quite significant. Your dps drops like a rock in no small part because you've dropped almost every gear piece that gives you DPS, We're comparing what the trait line does, not what your gear swap does.

    Also, why would you run 5 points into the physical mastery trait and leave the bleed trait untouched? 700 phys mastery is worth just over 2% bonus to base damage values, I don't think I need to run the math on how well that compares to +20% bleed damage as an alternative. 5 of the 6 major DoTs can be kept up easily enough in a 16s rotation, so there is no justification for not taking the trait because you won't use the gambits.

    A warden traited deep enough into blue for the capstone (not that we'd actually take it, but just putting enough points to get there) going for damage will run circles around the other tanking classes in damage output when similarly specced for their tank capstone. this is the point.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    You're comparing a dps build with a tanking build AND a dps traitline with a tanking traitline. The loss of PM and more importantly crit rating in the tank build is quite significant. Your dps drops like a rock in no small part because you've dropped almost every gear piece that gives you DPS, We're comparing what the trait line does, not what your gear swap does.

    Also, why would you run 5 points into the physical mastery trait and leave the bleed trait untouched? 700 phys mastery is worth just over 2% bonus to base damage values, I don't think I need to run the math on how well that compares to +20% bleed damage as an alternative. 5 of the 6 major DoTs can be kept up easily enough in a 16s rotation, so there is no justification for not taking the trait because you won't use the gambits.

    A warden traited deep enough into blue for the capstone (not that we'd actually take it, but just putting enough points to get there) going for damage will run circles around the other tanking classes in damage output when similarly specced for their tank capstone. this is the point.
    First, I don't care what the other tanks can do regarding DPS, because our tanking now is based in damage output as opposed to their stupid easy-mode forced taunts. So Wardens needing that DPS is out of the question.

    Regarding builds:
    Only changing to Blue tree (with full DPS gear) in the Tiger of Mosters and Madness (since I killed the Turtle in my last parse):
    -DPS gear + RED tree: 7k DPS
    -DPS gear + BLUE tree: 4k DPS

    I think a 3k DPS loss speaks for itself.
    So again, what do you mean by saying our DoTs aren't much lower if changing to Blue Tree?
    (And sorry, but I can't post the screenies from here, but can do later on if you want to).

    Another question is, how much more Survival are you getting just by switching to Blue tree if you focus on DPSing? Not much. Only if you choose to selfheal and buff up, which will make your DPS drop down even more, not to mention you can also do that in the Red tree.
    So I can't really see what's that "Great" survival you are getting by switching to Blue tree and still having DPS gear.

    And the reason I trait for PM instead of Bleed dmg is because PM affects directly to all builders and light DoTs which have priority in my Rotation (because the lowest light DoT do more damage than the highest Bleed), and in Blue tree DoTs have shorter durations leaving me room for 1 Bleed before refreshing. So a 20% more damage in the highest Bleed I keep up (say 40-50k) vs a 2% increase on light DoTs + Builders (say 400k-500k) the overall DPS difference is in any case irrelevant.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    First, I don't care what the other tanks can do regarding DPS, because our tanking now is based in damage output as opposed to their stupid easy-mode forced taunts. So Wardens needing that DPS is out of the question.

    Regarding builds:
    Only changing to Blue tree (with full DPS gear) in the Tiger of Mosters and Madness (since I killed the Turtle in my last parse):
    -DPS gear + RED tree: 7k DPS
    -DPS gear + BLUE tree: 4k DPS

    I think a 3k DPS loss speaks for itself.
    So again, what do you mean by saying our DoTs aren't much lower if changing to Blue Tree?
    (And sorry, but I can't post the screenies from here, but can do later on if you want to).

    Another question is, how much more Survival are you getting just by switching to Blue tree if you focus on DPSing? Not much. Only if you choose to selfheal and buff up, which will make your DPS drop down even more, not to mention you can also do that in the Red tree.
    So I can't really see what's that "Great" survival you are getting by switching to Blue tree and still having DPS gear.

    And the reason I trait for PM instead of Bleed dmg is because PM affects directly to all builders and light DoTs which have priority in my Rotation (because the lowest light DoT do more damage than the highest Bleed), and in Blue tree DoTs have shorter durations leaving me room for 1 Bleed before refreshing. So a 20% more damage in the highest Bleed I keep up (say 40-50k) vs a 2% increase on light DoTs + Builders (say 400k-500k) the overall DPS difference is in any case irrelevant.
    I know I could get a better parse than this as well, but I also know the DPS ones I've done in the past have been a bit off as well (this is predominately a Brandywine lag issue).
    Last time I did a parse on the guardian (I was about 400 phys mastery lower than what I have now, so no big deal) I did about ~7300dps. obviously I have a better crit rating through gear than you, so my dps will be innately higher thanks to that, but I'm losing less than 1900dps, while you lost 3k dps. Seems like pretty clear evidence supporting a higher focus on more DoTs and running all DoT traits instead of the phys mastery one.

    The guardian might not be a fantastic test of survivability, but I was at 80% of my morale bar when it died in Det compared to <10% left when traited Reck. In a more meaningful incoming damage environment the advantage of Speccing Det for dps output becomes more apparent. Restoration heals me for 4128 total morale (before inc healing) in reckless compared to 9960 in determination, and the same ratios hold true for the other healing gambits. The implications in a scenario where you need to heal should be as self-evident as the bleed trait vs physical mastery one. In AoE environments consider the value of added morale tap potency and durations, along with the passive defensive advantages of Det spec to DPS.

    I haven't seen much of any standardized dps parses among the various classes since HD launched, it would be interesting to see where ~5400 falls in this. I'd be willing to bet no other healing, tanking, or debuffing specced class (whatever spec a given class has to maximize their own survivability) doesn't come very close to what Wardens can do (maybe a yellow hunter? but they don't really fall into any of those categories well). We have our cake (crazy survivability in 98% of content) in Det, and get to eat it too (dps). The Class revamps were supposed to bring about harder choices and increased rewards and tradeoffs for our spec choice, but this just isn't the case.
    Last edited by spelunker; Jan 24 2014 at 08:59 PM.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I did about ~7300dps. obviously I have a better crit rating through gear than you, so my dps will be innately higher thanks to that, but I'm losing less than 1900dps, while you lost 3k dps. Seems like pretty clear evidence supporting a higher focus on more DoTs and running all DoT traits instead of the phys mastery one.
    I never said that parse was done without the Bleed trait on. I actually traited it in advance of this possible comment, so no, the 1,5k dps difference doesn't come from not traiting "Vital Points" trait, nor the crit rating difference (tops a 2% more than me).
    Are you sure those are the numbers you are getting while using Blue tree...? Unless you are getting around 9k DPS in Red Tree, which would explain the parse, but not how you get those numbers

    The TPS difference is barely different, and the extra passive heals you get are counteracted by a longer fight and more incoming damage. Check it out and do the maths yourself.
    I ended the fight in BLUE with around 40% morale, while I ended up with RED tree with about 10% morale.

    RED tree parses:


    BLUE tree parses:

    Again, +3k DPS loss just by changing trees.


    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Also, how you reach the Passive Blue Capstone (Revel in Combat) with 31 points? You need to spend 35 points to reach any Capstone, which leaves you 30 points for the Red Tree... So it's mathematically impossible to reach Blue Capstone Passive AND Aggravating Wounds at the same time. [/QUOTE]
    Last edited by Miloneel; Jan 25 2014 at 05:57 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    I never said that parse was done without the Bleed trait on. I actually traited it in advance of this possible comment, so no, the 1,5k dps difference doesn't come from not traiting "Vital Points" trait, nor the crit rating difference (tops a 2% more than me).
    Are you sure those are the numbers you are getting while using Blue tree...? Unless you are getting around 9k DPS in Red Tree, which would explain the parse, but not how you get those numbers

    The TPS difference is barely different, and the extra passive heals you get are counteracted by a longer fight and more incoming damage. Check it out and do the maths yourself.
    I ended the fight in BLUE with around 40% morale, while I ended up with RED tree with about 10% morale.

    RED tree parses:


    BLUE tree parses:

    Again, +3k DPS loss just by changing trees.



    Also, how you reach the Passive Blue Capstone (Revel in Combat) with 31 points? You need to spend 35 points to reach any Capstone, which leaves you 30 points for the Red Tree... So it's mathematically impossible to reach Blue Capstone Passive AND Aggravating Wounds at the same time.
    Lets see here...

    Thats a significantly different build than what you posted in the first parse, which looks like you are capping crit (past this is fairly useless as I'm sure you know, its just where my gear falls since i haven't 'optimized' it yet) and 8k more mastery. I went back and did 3 more parses, both reck specced and Det. Best I could do in Reckless was 7559, with the other parses being 7421 and 7516. I changed things around a bit from the post I made above with my Det rotation and the best I hit in Determination was 5809, with other parses at 5567 and 5498. Same exact gear used for both parses, and Det was specced as I posted in the other SS. Note I have 4k less phys mastery than you in that most recent build screenshot, and zero DPS increasing buffs like scrolls, tokens, agi food, or the DP perk. I don't know if you had any or not but it looks like you probably had scrolls and agi food based on that PM number.

    Quite frankly, you're doing things wrong in Determination DPS if you are having that 3000+ dps gap from swapping specs, since we've ruled out build differences and your Recklessness rotation must be solid enough.

    As far as the survivability goes, the point isn't the raw damage taken, its what we're capable of in a single build while in combat. Determination gives me a roughly 25% loss in absolute dps compared to Reckless yet my potential HPS is what: Doubled, Tripled?

    A more visceral example of what I'm talking about in survivability vs dps and how the balance is broken on a warden. Pick a 6-man that can be solo-d by a warden without any dps negating effects in a boss-fight(stuns, invulnerability period, etc). You run parses on the boss in recklessness, I'll run it in Determination and we'll compare our dps figures. Glinghant might be a good option, just anything that actually requires meaningful self-heals to survive. If you'd like, I'll compare it to other classes as well.

    Oh, and I don't know why you think you can't get a tree capstone with 31 points....
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Lets see here...

    Thats a significantly different build than what you posted in the first parse, which looks like you are capping crit (past this is fairly useless as I'm sure you know, its just where my gear falls since i haven't 'optimized' it yet) and 8k more mastery. I went back and did 3 more parses, both reck specced and Det. Best I could do in Reckless was 7559, with the other parses being 7421 and 7516. I changed things around a bit from the post I made above with my Det rotation and the best I hit in Determination was 5809, with other parses at 5567 and 5498. Same exact gear used for both parses, and Det was specced as I posted in the other SS. Note I have 4k less phys mastery than you in that most recent build screenshot, and zero DPS increasing buffs like scrolls, tokens, agi food, or the DP perk. I don't know if you had any or not but it looks like you probably had scrolls and agi food based on that PM number.

    Quite frankly, you're doing things wrong in Determination DPS if you are having that 3000+ dps gap from swapping specs, since we've ruled out build differences and your Recklessness rotation must be solid enough.

    As far as the survivability goes, the point isn't the raw damage taken, its what we're capable of in a single build while in combat. Determination gives me a roughly 25% loss in absolute dps compared to Reckless yet my potential HPS is what: Doubled, Tripled?

    A more visceral example of what I'm talking about in survivability vs dps and how the balance is broken on a warden. Pick a 6-man that can be solo-d by a warden without any dps negating effects in a boss-fight(stuns, invulnerability period, etc). You run parses on the boss in recklessness, I'll run it in Determination and we'll compare our dps figures. Glinghant might be a good option, just anything that actually requires meaningful self-heals to survive. If you'd like, I'll compare it to other classes as well.

    Oh, and I don't know why you think you can't get a tree capstone with 31 points....
    What type of rotation do you utilize to get that type of dps in either spec???

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,354
    A quick note, traits outside the primary tree also count towards the tree's totals. Technically speaking, you could still get the last trait set bonus with 5 points in your primary tree and the other 60 points buying 30 traits in other trees, though it's hard to imagine someone actually doing that.

    Since you guys are testing the DPS outputs of different trees, have either of you tried repeating in Assailment? It would be nice to have an idea of how it stacks up. Against one opponent, the -5% damage / 4 secs per hit taken should wear off pretty quickly instead of building up.
    Gremblus, Seuer, Grelob, and various others of Arkenstone

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,354
    Tried a couple times in Assailment myself; my crit is capped, phys. mastery at 51,748 (wearing 6 moors gear, no scrolls).
    tried twice, used NS twice each fight.
    first time (died w/guardian at ~100k): DPS 3062, TPS 191 --DPS was actually around 3100 but got knocked onto the guardian's shed when almost dead and hesistated before dropping down to die.
    second time: DPS 2974, TPS 158 --kited a bit, survived with ~600 health left

    For the first try I just doubled up and spammed WOS, except for a couple fat-fingered gambits.
    Second try I used Unerring more, with an occasional combination strike to try for bleed. Also used light oil and light dmg carving to help the stray Ambush or hampering. (didn't use hampering the first fight)

    I don't have the warden bleed jewelry set complete (I hate BBs with a passion), but other than that it's still sad that I'm still 25% lower than yall's worst tank spec parse, a big part of the reason I've been trying to promote various Assailment fixes.

    EDIT: Ran it a third time, this time using a redline Assailment build. Finished with 3482 DPS, but was at 4k DPS until about halfway through the fight when I messed up my rotation and didn't really recover. TPS 226, but healed nearly 10k from parries.
    Rotation is SpSp deft SpSh Sp ShSh (marked if up) WOSx2 Sp SpSh deft Sp ShSp ShFi (marked if up) WOSx2 - when I don't bungle it. Takes just over 15s, hence marked doesn't get used every time. Same rotation I used for my first try.
    I guess redline really is the way to go for Assailment, too.
    Last edited by Gremus; Jan 25 2014 at 11:51 AM.
    Gremblus, Seuer, Grelob, and various others of Arkenstone

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Quite frankly, you're doing things wrong in Determination DPS if you are having that 3000+ dps gap from swapping specs, since we've ruled out build differences and your Recklessness rotation must be solid enough.
    Granted. I've run a bit more testing and the best parse I got I was able to reach 4,8k dps while on BLUE tree (with all available buffs, ofc), while my best in RED is 7,6k dps. So now that we're on the same 5k league, let's take a look at all the numbers in the same time range (1m40s):

    DMG= 5k dps (vs 7,6k dps in Red tree)
    TPS = 186 tps (vs 185 tps in Red tree)
    HPS = 67 hps (vs 54 hps in Red tree)

    I fail to see it. Where is our huge boost on survival? Where is our 'same DPS' in both trees?


    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Determination gives me a roughly 25% loss in absolute dps compared to Reckless yet my potential HPS is what: Doubled, Tripled?
    Well you are changing what you first said. In your first answer you were supporting the idea of having a high Survivability without any loss on DPS only by changing to Blue tree. A 25%-30% of overall DPS loss IS already an important loss on dps.
    The big boost on Survival is about getting 10-15 HPS more. That's all.
    Last edited by Miloneel; Jan 25 2014 at 02:01 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Gremus View Post
    Tried a couple times in Assailment myself; my crit is capped, phys. mastery at 51,748 (wearing 6 moors gear, no scrolls).
    tried twice, used NS twice each fight.
    first time (died w/guardian at ~100k): DPS 3062, TPS 191 --DPS was actually around 3100 but got knocked onto the guardian's shed when almost dead and hesistated before dropping down to die.
    second time: DPS 2974, TPS 158 --kited a bit, survived with ~600 health left

    For the first try I just doubled up and spammed WOS, except for a couple fat-fingered gambits.
    Second try I used Unerring more, with an occasional combination strike to try for bleed. Also used light oil and light dmg carving to help the stray Ambush or hampering. (didn't use hampering the first fight)

    I don't have the warden bleed jewelry set complete (I hate BBs with a passion), but other than that it's still sad that I'm still 25% lower than yall's worst tank spec parse, a big part of the reason I've been trying to promote various Assailment fixes.

    EDIT: Ran it a third time, this time using a redline Assailment build. Finished with 3482 DPS, but was at 4k DPS until about halfway through the fight when I messed up my rotation and didn't really recover. TPS 226, but healed nearly 10k from parries.
    Rotation is SpSp deft SpSh Sp ShSh (marked if up) WOSx2 Sp SpSh deft Sp ShSp ShFi (marked if up) WOSx2 - when I don't bungle it. Takes just over 15s, hence marked doesn't get used every time. Same rotation I used for my first try.
    I guess redline really is the way to go for Assailment, too.
    I never tested Assailment properly tbh, but from your numbers seems Red tree has the most dps output in all stances & trees. It's weird. I would have expected Yellow tree doing a bit more dps in Assailment stance than Red tree.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    I never tested Assailment properly tbh, but from your numbers seems Red tree has the most dps output in all stances & trees. It's weird. I would have expected Yellow tree doing a bit more dps in Assailment stance than Red tree.
    Where you guys testing??? And what type of rotation are you utilizing...I would love to compare!

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    5,806
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    Well you are changing what you first said. In your first answer you were supporting the idea of having a high Survivability without any loss on DPS only by changing to Blue tree. A 25%-30% of overall DPS loss IS already an important loss on dps.
    The big boost on Survival is about getting 10-15 HPS more. That's all.
    I disagree, he hasn't changed his intended meaning, you are just trying to frame this argument in a very strange way.

    Obviously, using survival/healing gambits will lower your momentary DPS output. The point is that having the ability to DPS to the extend a Blue traited warden CAN while also having access to the healing/survival that comes with the line. Wardens appear to have the ability to retain a *lot* more of their DPS capability than other tank classes... though as Desolates notes, some parses for other tank classes may help clear up some of this.

    This is important obviously for pvp, but also for tank balance in general as DPS baselining also = threat baselining.


    Even my Signature is trolling!

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    England.
    Posts
    55
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    This is important obviously for pvp, but also for tank balance in general as DPS baselining also = threat baselining.
    How many force taunts / threat catch-ups do each of the tank classes have? Could it be that PvE tanking is balanced by virtue of the fact that wardens only get one force taunt / catch-up but higher base DPS to compensate?
    Ginwar - Warden | Ginrunk - Rune Keeper | Ginras - Hunter
    Officer of [URL="http://thorinsshield.gamerdna.com/"]Thorin's Shield[/URL], Snowbourn, UK.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    5,806
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphane View Post
    How many force taunts / threat catch-ups do each of the tank classes have? Could it be that PvE tanking is balanced by virtue of the fact that wardens only get one force taunt / catch-up but higher base DPS to compensate?
    I think you're giving way too much credit on the quality and quantity of interclass balance being applied at this stage.


    Even my Signature is trolling!

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    I disagree, he hasn't changed his intended meaning, you are just trying to frame this argument in a very strange way.
    Sigh.
    Where did you get lost?
    High Survival = Low DPS
    High DPS = Low Survival
    One or the other. Not both.

    If you say DPS is not much lower while in BLUE, you have to back it up. A minimum of 25-30% loss just by switching from Red to Blue - with full DPS gear and full DPS rotation - IS an important loss.
    Put tanking gear in the equation, and see that DPS drop down to more than half (see Filikul parses for reference.)
    Put selfheals/buffs in the rotation and see our DPS drop to the ground which, in a Raid, is barely minimum to hold aggro against a hard DPS hitter.
    So needing that amount of DPS is totally out of the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    The point is that having the ability to DPS to the extend a Blue traited warden CAN while also having access to the healing/survival that comes with the line.
    What healing/survival are you talking about that doesn't imply a big loss in DPS?
    The bonuses you get passively are pretty meh. See the TPS in the parses, the dmg taken is almost the same both in Red and Blue when using the same gear.
    If you don't selfheal/buff, you are only getting a very small increase in HPS and a 25-30% loss of DPS. If you selfheal, the loss of DPS is going to be much bigger than 25-30%.
    Not to mention a RED Warden can also selfheal and buff up, obviously sacrificing DPS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    This is important obviously for pvp, but also for tank balance in general as DPS baselining also = threat baselining.
    No, this is important for PvMP, specially for one side. Let's be completely honest here.
    Trying to compare tanks DPS here is not only irrelevant for the discussion, it's comparing oranges to apples.
    If you still want to get into that road, I suggest you get ready the list of Panic Buttons/Mitigations/BPE/Heals/Forced-Taunts. And let's compare.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    Sigh.
    Where did you get lost?
    High Survival = Low DPS
    High DPS = Low Survival
    One or the other. Not both.

    If you say DPS is not much lower while in BLUE, you have to back it up. A minimum of 25-30% loss just by switching from Red to Blue - with full DPS gear and full DPS rotation - IS an important loss.
    Put tanking gear in the equation, and see that DPS drop down to more than half (see Filikul parses for reference.)
    Put selfheals/buffs in the rotation and see our DPS drop to the ground which, in a Raid, is barely minimum to hold aggro against a hard DPS hitter.
    So needing that amount of DPS is totally out of the question.



    What healing/survival are you talking about that doesn't imply a big loss in DPS?
    The bonuses you get passively are pretty meh. See the TPS in the parses, the dmg taken is almost the same both in Red and Blue when using the same gear.
    If you don't selfheal/buff, you are only getting a very small increase in HPS and a 25-30% loss of DPS. If you selfheal, the loss of DPS is going to be much bigger than 25-30%.
    Not to mention a RED Warden can also selfheal and buff up, obviously sacrificing DPS.


    No, this is important for PvMP, specially for one side. Let's be completely honest here.
    Trying to compare tanks DPS here is not only irrelevant for the discussion, it's comparing oranges to apples.
    If you still want to get into that road, I suggest you get ready the list of Panic Buttons/Mitigations/BPE/Heals/Forced-Taunts. And let's compare.
    Where are you guys testing dps???? And I would love to hear about your does rotation. I have been trying to develop a rotation without much luck... usually u try to put on as many bleeds as possible with sp-sh-fs gambit build up....

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,354
    What they used for the later tests, and so I used for testing Assailment damage, was the Guardian wossname kitty above Woodhurst - one of the 3 mobs for the Monsters and Madness quest.
    It has more mitigations than a normal mob, but more importantly it lives long enough to get a fairly consistent result on, though there's a fair chance you'll die if just straight DPSing.

    Admittedly its mitigations tend to favor the bugged bleed damage, but tougher mobs seem to generally come with higher mits anyway; not much choice about that.
    Gremblus, Seuer, Grelob, and various others of Arkenstone

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gremus View Post
    Tried a couple times in Assailment myself; my crit is capped, phys. mastery at 51,748 (wearing 6 moors gear, no scrolls).
    tried twice, used NS twice each fight.
    first time (died w/guardian at ~100k): DPS 3062, TPS 191 --DPS was actually around 3100 but got knocked onto the guardian's shed when almost dead and hesistated before dropping down to die.
    second time: DPS 2974, TPS 158 --kited a bit, survived with ~600 health left

    For the first try I just doubled up and spammed WOS, except for a couple fat-fingered gambits.
    Second try I used Unerring more, with an occasional combination strike to try for bleed. Also used light oil and light dmg carving to help the stray Ambush or hampering. (didn't use hampering the first fight)

    I don't have the warden bleed jewelry set complete (I hate BBs with a passion), but other than that it's still sad that I'm still 25% lower than yall's worst tank spec parse, a big part of the reason I've been trying to promote various Assailment fixes.

    EDIT: Ran it a third time, this time using a redline Assailment build. Finished with 3482 DPS, but was at 4k DPS until about halfway through the fight when I messed up my rotation and didn't really recover. TPS 226, but healed nearly 10k from parries.
    Rotation is SpSp deft SpSh Sp ShSh (marked if up) WOSx2 Sp SpSh deft Sp ShSp ShFi (marked if up) WOSx2 - when I don't bungle it. Takes just over 15s, hence marked doesn't get used every time. Same rotation I used for my first try.
    I guess redline really is the way to go for Assailment, too.
    If you're using 'the stray hampering' I'm assuming you aren't actually hamper kiting the guardian, meaning you're fighting in melee range, with the range stance. You are aware of the harried debuff, right? Comparing DPS figures with this debuff up is pretty much pointless. There are too many trees and rocks around the guardian to hamper kite without continuous LoS issues, and the 900k drake has too many enemy mobs that you would probably aggro as well. The only only mob I can think of that fits the bill to be able to properly test ranged dps without a tank to hold aggro would be fastitocanon (sp?) the 2 million morale turtle in the swamp in west rohan. Hampering and backpedal in a giant circle and you should never be hit by a melee attack for the debuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    Granted. I've run a bit more testing and the best parse I got I was able to reach 4,8k dps while on BLUE tree (with all available buffs, ofc), while my best in RED is 7,6k dps. So now that we're on the same 5k league, let's take a look at all the numbers in the same time range (1m40s):

    DMG= 5k dps (vs 7,6k dps in Red tree)
    TPS = 186 tps (vs 185 tps in Red tree)
    HPS = 67 hps (vs 54 hps in Red tree)

    I fail to see it. Where is our huge boost on survival? Where is our 'same DPS' in both trees?




    Well you are changing what you first said. In your first answer you were supporting the idea of having a high Survivability without any loss on DPS only by changing to Blue tree. A 25%-30% of overall DPS loss IS already an important loss on dps.
    The big boost on Survival is about getting 10-15 HPS more. That's all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    I disagree, he hasn't changed his intended meaning, you are just trying to frame this argument in a very strange way.

    Obviously, using survival/healing gambits will lower your momentary DPS output. The point is that having the ability to DPS to the extend a Blue traited warden CAN while also having access to the healing/survival that comes with the line. Wardens appear to have the ability to retain a *lot* more of their DPS capability than other tank classes... though as Desolates notes, some parses for other tank classes may help clear up some of this.

    This is important obviously for pvp, but also for tank balance in general as DPS baselining also = threat baselining.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    Sigh.
    Where did you get lost?
    High Survival = Low DPS
    High DPS = Low Survival
    One or the other. Not both.

    If you say DPS is not much lower while in BLUE, you have to back it up. A minimum of 25-30% loss just by switching from Red to Blue - with full DPS gear and full DPS rotation - IS an important loss.
    Put tanking gear in the equation, and see that DPS drop down to more than half (see Filikul parses for reference.)
    Put selfheals/buffs in the rotation and see our DPS drop to the ground which, in a Raid, is barely minimum to hold aggro against a hard DPS hitter.
    So needing that amount of DPS is totally out of the question.



    What healing/survival are you talking about that doesn't imply a big loss in DPS?
    The bonuses you get passively are pretty meh. See the TPS in the parses, the dmg taken is almost the same both in Red and Blue when using the same gear.
    If you don't selfheal/buff, you are only getting a very small increase in HPS and a 25-30% loss of DPS. If you selfheal, the loss of DPS is going to be much bigger than 25-30%.
    Not to mention a RED Warden can also selfheal and buff up, obviously sacrificing DPS.


    No, this is important for PvMP, specially for one side. Let's be completely honest here.
    Trying to compare tanks DPS here is not only irrelevant for the discussion, it's comparing oranges to apples.
    If you still want to get into that road, I suggest you get ready the list of Panic Buttons/Mitigations/BPE/Heals/Forced-Taunts. And let's compare.
    While I'd hoped Sezneg's response would be enough, let me clarify the points I'm trying to make one final time. Without gear or trait changes, and thus available 100% of the time upon entering combat: speccing Det with an even investment in Reckless traits a warden is capable of doing approximately 75% of the dps of a pure DPS specced one, and if given a changing situation can immediately swap to defensive skills and carry 250+% increased ability to survive damage taken. Gear and buffs (other than LIs I suppose) are irrelevant to the discussion, which is centered around the fact that this class has easy, instant access to strong DPS or strong survivability, or a very significant amount of both at the same time, all within the confines of a single trait setup.

    This is important for BOTH sides in PvMP. Those who see their opponents as nothing more than infamy/renown nodes do more harm to the quality of PvMP in this game ON BOTH sides than the Devs ever have.

    Its hard to make any overly meaningful comments on the impact of this on PvE, because of the garbage that is PvE at the moment but the class seems plenty out of whack in that content as well. I'll reiterate that part of my point, since you seem to be skating around it in previous replies. Pick any PvE content where incoming damage requires meaningful incoming heals, but a reckless spec can survive, and lets compare how much dps we can put out while surviving.

    The tradeoffs in survivability potential gained compared to DPS lost simply aren't meaningful enough with the current warden.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload