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  1. #1
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    Captain Issues 12.2

    Trying to collect Captain issues in this thread. I've bugged all the issues.

    Armor Set Bonuses:
    ToO Dagor 2-set bonus is bugged, it triggers every time you hit with SL (though I guess 100% chance is still a chance :P )
    Greater Erebor Leader 4-set bonus reduces Last Stand cooldown by a lot more than 25%


    Inspiriting Presence Trait Set Bonus:
    Inspire and Valiant Strike does not seem to grant Inspiriting Presence on critical heals, they grant the buff when the damage hit is a critical strike.
    Using Inspire or Valiant Strike after using Valiant Strike or Inspire always consumes the buff, makes the skill do a critical damage hit and grant the Inspiriting Presence buff again.
    Gallant Display and Standard of X always consumes the Inspiriting Presence buff, but only the damage is a 100% crit.
    Auto Attacks Devastating Blow, Pressing Attack, Sure Strike, Cleanse Corruption and Blade of Elendil sometimes consumes the Inspiriting Presence buff. In case the buff is consumed, the hit is a critical hit (or perhaps the opposite, when the hit is a crit the buff is consumed?)
    Grave Wound sometimes consumes the Inspiriting Presence buff, but it does not seem to grant a critical strike.
    Ground Targetable Standards always consume the buff and seems to always grant 1 critical hit
    Muster Courage consumes the Inspiriting Presence buff: "Meramir applied a critical benefit with Muster Courage on Meramir." - Now what is a critical benefit?

    This trait set bonus sure is confusing :P

    LtC: Vital Stroke Trait:
    Either the tooltip is outdated or the -5s Grave Wound cooldown is bugged, the trait does not change Grave Wound cooldown.

    LoM: Demand Attention Trait:
    This trait is confusing to lower level Captains because you can get the trait before you get the skill related to the trait (Grave Wound). What about having the trait tooltip describe that Grave Wound is available at lvl 42 (and perhaps do the same with other traits?) or make Grave Wound available earlier than lvl 42?

    Gallant Display buff:
    If you have the Gallant Display buff up (rank 1 to 3) it sometimes do not renew when you use Gallant Display. Instead, a secondary Gallant Display buff is created, so you can end up with a Tier 3 and a Tier 1 buff at the same time. The test was done on Dummies and the Turtle in Filikul, happens both places.

    Tactics not stacking:
    Tactics are still not stacking. I think it's fine that the same tactic do not stack (e.g. 2x Relentless) but I really think different tactics should stack (e.g. Relentless + On Guard) so both Captains in the group can make use of their buffs.

    SotD + Audacity:
    Being able to get more than -100% incoming damage on a regular basis in Ettenmoors is making LoM Captains very hard to kill. I suggest looking at how Audacity and SotD complement eachother or make a Moors-only nerf to SotD so you cannot reach -100% incoming damage.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Jan 20 2014 at 05:13 AM.

  2. #2
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    One thing bothers me for a while. It is not new, but I was hoping it would be addressed in 12.2.

    The Grave Wound cooldown is never reduced as promised by one of the traits in the LtC tree. The final rank of Vital Stroke trait tells that the cooldown should be reduced by 5s and it would make it 15s allowing to stack grave wound dot 3 times with a maxed pulse legacy. However, my Grave Wound is always 20s both as written on tooltip and the actual behavior of the skill proves it.

    I wonder if it is a misleading description of the trait or a bug which I should keep /bugging?
    Ishtarien - Captain 100
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    The Mellowship - [EN] Eldar -> [EN] Evernight

  3. #3
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    Well, Pre-HD Grave Wound used to be on a 30s which could then be reduced by 5s from legacy. I think the trait was supposed to lower it for another 5s (to 20s) before RockX slaughtered all those poor cooldown legacies+bonuses and made Grave Wound default cooldown 20s. So while the tooltip does specify -5s cooldown, I don't think you should expect lower cooldown than 20s.

  4. #4
    I feel like I'm always losing Gallant Display stacks when the Inspiriting Presence buff is consumed (need to do some more targetted testing to see whether this is actually the case, but it sure looks like it). This doesn't look like it's WAI. Also, I'm pretty sure this wasn't happening before 12.1.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    I feel like I'm always losing Gallant Display stacks when the Inspiriting Presence buff is consumed (need to do some more targetted testing to see whether this is actually the case, but it sure looks like it). This doesn't look like it's WAI. Also, I'm pretty sure this wasn't happening before 12.1.
    I don't seem to get that, but there are issues with how Gallant Display stacks, sometimes it creates a new tier 1 buff rather than renewing your current buff.

  6. #6
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    Not in release notes, but is the moors banner upgraded yet by any chance?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    I don't seem to get that, but there are issues with how Gallant Display stacks, sometimes it creates a new tier 1 buff rather than renewing your current buff.
    You may be right, I just noticed I have had an issue with GD stacks since 12.1, and pegged it to the most likely candidate.

    It's kind of hard to follow everything that's going on with the million icons we have on our bar.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelgonTheWise View Post
    Not in release notes, but is the moors banner upgraded yet by any chance?
    No, only new rings

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Well, Pre-HD Grave Wound used to be on a 30s which could then be reduced by 5s from legacy. I think the trait was supposed to lower it for another 5s (to 20s) before RockX slaughtered all those poor cooldown legacies+bonuses and made Grave Wound default cooldown 20s. So while the tooltip does specify -5s cooldown, I don't think you should expect lower cooldown than 20s.
    I personally find 15s cd to be a bit overpowered, but this tooltip exists, it is a new trait added in HD - not an artefact in a form of an old legacy. It also causes a lot of questions and if it is just a wrong trait description - it should be corrected.

    Thank you for adding it to the list of captain bugs. Hopefully at least some of these bugs will be soon addressed
    Ishtarien - Captain 100
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  10. #10
    RockX is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Gallant Display buff:
    If you have the Gallant Display buff up (rank 1 to 3) it sometimes do not renew when you use Gallant Display. Instead, a secondary Gallant Display buff is created, so you can end up with a Tier 3 and a Tier 1 buff at the same time. The test was done on Dummies and the Turtle in Filikul, happens both places.
    This is because it appears you're getting the wrong version of the Gallant Display buff when at Tier 3 with Inspiriting Presence and trying to refresh the buff. I just fixed it internally, but I don't think the fix will be able to make it into 12.2.

    I'll look into the other things as well.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockX View Post
    This is because it appears you're getting the wrong version of the Gallant Display buff when at Tier 3 with Inspiriting Presence and trying to refresh the buff. I just fixed it internally, but I don't think the fix will be able to make it into 12.2.

    I'll look into the other things as well.
    Hey Rockx, what use are the mitigation moors rings when we are already capped in mits, why not add a fell wrought and orc-craft mitigation to those things to give them some actual use. thanks.

  12. #12
    RockX is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by PERQ View Post
    Hey Rockx, what use are the mitigation moors rings when we are already capped in mits, why not add a fell wrought and orc-craft mitigation to those things to give them some actual use. thanks.
    That would be better aimed towards Jinjaah. I don't really have much to do with the Ettenmoors. I'm not too familiar with how those damage types function compared to the others.

  13. #13
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    Is the armaments change making it into 12.2, or a later update?
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockX View Post
    This is because it appears you're getting the wrong version of the Gallant Display buff when at Tier 3 with Inspiriting Presence and trying to refresh the buff. I just fixed it internally, but I don't think the fix will be able to make it into 12.2.

    I'll look into the other things as well.
    Yeah that sounds about right, if I pick LtC or HoH without putting enough points in to get Inspiriting Presence it seems to work as expected. I guess Inspiriting Presence is causing quite some trouble then

    Which skills is the autocrit from Inspiriting Presence supposed to affect? As for Tactical Skills (which is what the tooltip mentions) I guess that only Rallying Cry, Routing Cry and Words of Courage should be getting the autocrit, and that feels like quite a limitation in choices.

  15. #15
    RockX is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Almagnus1 View Post
    Is the armaments change making it into 12.2, or a later update?
    That's currently set for 13.

  16. #16
    My Cappy's Oathbreaker pet has a graphic bug. It looks as if there is a reflection on the ground of the Oathie, very wierd looking, 1st noticed it in HD beta, has this been fixed?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by RockX View Post
    That would be better aimed towards Jinjaah. I don't really have much to do with the Ettenmoors. I'm not too familiar with how those damage types function compared to the others.
    Could you perhaps have a discussion with Jinjaah about the interaction between the Shield of the Dunedain skill and audacity? While the skill combined with cooldown reductions seem pretty over the top in many pvp or pve scenarios, its flat out broken and opens up exploitative behavior as it stands now in PvP.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockX View Post
    That's currently set for 13.
    Eh.... if it means it gets done right for U13, it'll be worth the wait.

    Just don't want to wait XD
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post
    Outstanding issues:

    Short buff range of auras, EG herald buff, IDOME, Motivation - Suggested solution would be to make this a skill like our tactics (massive 80m range, duration of say 10 seconds) but is re-triggered every 3 seconds without user input.

    Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

    X-brother skills - Lack of flexibility - should be made general skills - why are we buffing other peoples tanking ability when we are in tank stance? Likewise heals? I want to shield brother the tank when I am a healer! I want blade brother always available because more dps = faster runs. I want to song brother when I have a captain tanking and he needs more power, or because I have a full team of minstrels and RKs and LMs who want more tactical mastery.

    Tactics buff over-rights tactics of other captains in the group (sometimes? For some reason with Focus/Relentless it didnt seem to over-right, but with On Guard/Relentless the most recent one took precedence). Tactics skills should be more controllable OR stack.

    Tactics - on guard - still utterly awful. The only person in the group with power problems is the tank traited captain (so power cost is pointless for 5 out of 6), the parry rating and defence % are only useful if you are taking damage. Of no interest to anyone.

    Tactics - focus - 2% tactical mitigation? huh? Incoming healing % isn't really a buff, it's the same as increasing all your heals by a few % (less than 5%, because most people who need healing a lot already have incoming heal %, and going from say 130% to 135% is actually an improvement of approx 3.8%). Yes yes it increases self heals, but seriously?

    Last stand - IMHO reduced length of duration on it still makes it pointless, putting it into the tank line is counterproductive and the heal is pathetic. Can we do something with this skill to make it something I will use at some point? A bubble for example?
    Also:

    Master of war buffs with same icon/name. No way of knowing what is actually going on without mouseover or a plugin that shows you the duration and enough experience to recognise the different duration of the different kinds of buff.

    Short buff area of auras also applies to banner skills (seriously, what were you thinking with all these short range buffs in "Big" battles?)

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by aardnebby View Post

    Outstanding issues:

    Short buff range of auras, EG herald buff, IDOME, Motivation - Suggested solution would be to make this a skill like our tactics (massive 80m range, duration of say 10 seconds) but is re-triggered every 3 seconds without user input.

    Poor herald performance (various) - At level cap DPS is still pathetic and the Heightened Allies trait is effectively worthless compared to almost any other trait even at double the cost - no idea what I can suggest here because something tells me even if the herald does 10 times the DPS it does now (400dps instead of 40!) the pathing is not going to improve and we are stuck with the herald whether we want it or not. There are several AoE skills that kill the herald despite us being told most would not affect it. It cannot be summoned on the move (you have to stand still for the induction). It still suffers various "eye" effects. The only contribution to the playability of the captain is when you want x-brother while soloing, wouldn't a stance do just as well (such as Warspeech used to work for minstrels).

    X-brother skills - Lack of flexibility - should be made general skills - why are we buffing other peoples tanking ability when we are in tank stance? Likewise heals? I want to shield brother the tank when I am a healer! I want blade brother always available because more dps = faster runs. I want to song brother when I have a captain tanking and he needs more power, or because I have a full team of minstrels and RKs and LMs who want more tactical mastery.

    Tactics buff over-rights tactics of other captains in the group (sometimes? For some reason with Focus/Relentless it didnt seem to over-right, but with On Guard/Relentless the most recent one took precedence). Tactics skills should be more controllable OR stack.

    Tactics - on guard - still utterly awful. The only person in the group with power problems is the tank traited captain (so power cost is pointless for 5 out of 6), the parry rating and defence % are only useful if you are taking damage. Of no interest to anyone.

    Tactics - focus - 2% tactical mitigation? huh? Incoming healing % isn't really a buff, it's the same as increasing all your heals by a few % (less than 5%, because most people who need healing a lot already have incoming heal %, and going from say 130% to 135% is actually an improvement of approx 3.8%). Yes yes it increases self heals, but seriously?

    Last stand - IMHO reduced length of duration on it still makes it pointless, putting it into the tank line is counterproductive and the heal is pathetic. Can we do something with this skill to make it something I will use at some point? A bubble for example?
    Also:

    Master of war buffs with same icon/name. No way of knowing what is actually going on without mouseover or a plugin that shows you the duration and enough experience to recognise the different duration of the different kinds of buff.

    Short buff area of auras also applies to banner skills (seriously, what were you thinking with all these short range buffs in "Big" battles?)
    I'm not in any position to answer most of this. I just want to say that I thought Last Stand was supposed to be used with In Harm's Way, then you're supposed to be depending on the healers to keep you from dying. If you have the LS legacy, the non-defeat time increases to 17s, but my legacy might be an early one, there may be a better one. I could use that to be 20s-25s to match the Harm's Way skill, otherwise, it's certain death. Seems to me, it's supposed to prevent fellowship wipe, but that's highly dependent on being able to de-dot, un-slow and heal the fellowship in the limited amount of time. But if LS expires before Harm's Way, then you're going to wipe the fellowship anyway if you're the only tank. Ergo, not useful atm. You could make the claim that we're not primarily tanks, but there's no point giving people "sorta" skills. Right now, you're over-relying on the healer to apply another death prevention at the EXACT right moment for this theory to work right. Too tricky, people will not use often.

    I agree with most of what you said about heralds. I like pet classes and the pet has always been really low dps. In the olden times, when I was leveling the first captain, I'd just have him follow me around providing buffs because one fight and he'd be dead. So his survivability has improved, but he's still not "useful" in the sense that I expect a pet to be useful. Think on this... a loremaster has a pet.. a useful pet. And a loremaster can do some killer damage all by himself. He can evade instead of block and parry, though his armor is low. The only thing he fears is physical damage. OK... a captain has a pet, he can do some good damage, not as good as loremaster though, more of a tank with benefits, however his pet is so weak that he's constantly engaged in keeping it alive and buffing it - it's more of a tool for learning how to buff others than it is a tool for playing the class. At least that's how it looks to me at the moment. Both loremaster and captain can protect themselves, can damage foes themselves, and they both have pets. Why is the captain pet so weak? I suppose it's because the pet provides benefits to the whole fellowship or raid? OK, fine, but then, why does he die at the stroke of a feather? That's double whammy.

    Too often I'm thinking "what happened to my herald?" in fellowships. Something just oneshots them. There's a serious lack of pet classes in this game, and people like me who like working with a pet (pet pulls, having the pet threaten, or having the pet kite, or just to provide benefits), we've got two choices... loremaster or captain. I noticed that now Loremaster pets are "too awesome"?? If you really want to see an OP pet, find a popular game that has conjurers and necromancers, you know the one... use ACT on a raid with maxed Conurors or Necros. You'll see some OP. This game is so incredibly far away from that that it's laughable to think that pets here are "too awesome." The Captain's pet needs to be more useful and take damage more slowly. Maybe there's a stat it's missing? I can't see all of its stats so I can't say. I can't answer a question like "How much crit defense does it have?" I wouldn't know where to look.

    Honestly I haven't had as much trouble as most people with keeping the Archer alive, but I'm talking about soloing now. I keep some crests around for use when I enter solo instances, but for the most part, threatening shout with 6 targets keeps him alive just fine. For solos, I like him best for DPS. He's smarter somehow than the others, doesn't get stuck in pathing problems as much, and as long as I'm threatening the mobs, he's fairly trouble free. I do wish I could tell him to stand back and use his bow only. Maybe there's a chat command that I haven't discovered yet.

    I would be happy with a compromise like "Archers die more easily in 6/12-man instances, but heralds have higher survivability in all areas." I'd sill like to see a little more herald dps and bigger heals (assuming I'm replenishing his power), and an aoe threat in case I do want to sacrifice my herald for some strategic purpose. Or just a sacrifice skill where he takes on all damage to me for a brief time (to cover those last 3 seconds of In Harm's Way after LS?). That would require skill and forethought on the part of the Captain. The sacrifice could have a cooldown....

    I think the changes to make Captains more of a tank are great so far. The utility of the Archer is excellent for me and I'm kind of confused why people have such trouble with him. Only when the (solo) mobs get almost too hard for me do I switch to one of the heralds, but that's because I want heals and I expect that cooldowns will be an issue. I noticed rallying cry changes are coming, I'm looking forward to that. There seems to be some funny logic to it atm but I'd be unable to pinpoint what exactly.

    ------
    I just want to add that I noticed the power issues also. Out of power will occur with just a skirmish while leveling right now. The loremaster can pull power slowly from mobs, but we can't. Could the herald gain that ability? Or maybe a stance that replenishes power? I'm spending all of today cooking food because of this issue. I hope it helps.
    Last edited by gripply; Jan 16 2014 at 07:01 PM.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by gripply View Post
    Why is the captain pet so weak?
    Because our ranged slot is banner v armaments, so it's either buff us or the herald, and honestly, the herald is losing that one.

    Here's to hoping the issue is resolved in U13.
    Maley Oakensage, Captain of Landroval

    Alas Elendilmir, may you *jingle jangle* forever in the Forgotten West

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  22. #22

    Add Improved Motivating Speech to Boromir Quest reward

    Since this is a thread about bugs, I'll add two I noticed:

    I'm leveling a new captain, he's in the 50s now. After I completed "A lesson from Boromir" I noticed the _In Defence of Middle Earth_ buff so I assume it was that quest that activated the skill. After research and asking forum questions I discovered that it was coming from the transformation of Motivating Speech into Improved Motivating Speech.

    If indeed it was the quest that granted that skill, it would be great to have that listed as a reward. Currently the Boromir quest says "1 Class Trait Point" and nothing else.

    Bug 1: Class quests should show skill benefits bestowed as well as Class Trait Points awarded.

    I also had to read my passive skills very carefully to notice that halberds give you a 5% damage benefit. Somewhere on the forums I read that it used to be that halberds also gave you a threat benefit, but if that is still active, I can't find it documented on any skill. Personally I look for any reason to use a halberd in any game, but that's just preference. I realize most people like a BAS, but give me a halberd any day. My favorite console games are the ones where they took into account that I could hit the mobs before they could hit me with a halberd. Form up! CLoD!

    Not sure how to address the "you must now read your passive skills carefully" issue except maybe to have the trainer mention it in their startup speech. Or have the tooltip for any halberd you equip show the passive benefit?

    Bug 2: Passive skills might be ignored if they are not read carefully now.

  23. #23
    RockX is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by gripply View Post
    Since this is a thread about bugs, I'll add two I noticed:

    I'm leveling a new captain, he's in the 50s now. After I completed "A lesson from Boromir" I noticed the _In Defence of Middle Earth_ buff so I assume it was that quest that activated the skill. After research and asking forum questions I discovered that it was coming from the transformation of Motivating Speech into Improved Motivating Speech.

    If indeed it was the quest that granted that skill, it would be great to have that listed as a reward. Currently the Boromir quest says "1 Class Trait Point" and nothing else.

    Bug 1: Class quests should show skill benefits bestowed as well as Class Trait Points awarded.

    I also had to read my passive skills very carefully to notice that halberds give you a 5% damage benefit. Somewhere on the forums I read that it used to be that halberds also gave you a threat benefit, but if that is still active, I can't find it documented on any skill. Personally I look for any reason to use a halberd in any game, but that's just preference. I realize most people like a BAS, but give me a halberd any day. My favorite console games are the ones where they took into account that I could hit the mobs before they could hit me with a halberd. Form up! CLoD!

    Not sure how to address the "you must now read your passive skills carefully" issue except maybe to have the trainer mention it in their startup speech. Or have the tooltip for any halberd you equip show the passive benefit?

    Bug 2: Passive skills might be ignored if they are not read carefully now.
    The former legendary trait quests now give players a trait point. You get Improved Motivating Speech while leveling now. Sounds like it's just a coincidence you got it after completing said quest.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by gripply View Post
    I also had to read my passive skills very carefully to notice that halberds give you a 5% damage benefit. Somewhere on the forums I read that it used to be that halberds also gave you a threat benefit, but if that is still active, I can't find it documented on any skill.
    Some classes get a damage buff for a particular weapon -- for Captains, of course, that's the Halberd.

    That passive bonus is distinct from any special buff inherent to the weapon type. (Example: Swords give a 1% parry buff, always.) The inherent bonus for halberds used to be a 2% threat buff. With Captains being a (mostly) non-tanking class, a lot of cappies went with a sword (after traiting the Man sword bonus). With only one class permitted to use halberds, and that class largely opting not to, halberds became an endangered species.

    So, the halberd threat bonus was replaced -- it's now a 2% auto-attack crit buff. (Hover over your halberd to see it in the tool-tip.) This means you can get slightly more DPS with a halberd than with a 2H sword, *and* you don't have to use up a racial trait.

    So I think for cappies, halberds are probably the 2H weapon of choice now.
    Theofrid, Wyndriel, Wendros, Glydia, Halfrid, Fridward, Friddis, Fridli, Gondaglir

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robeauch View Post
    Some classes get a damage buff for a particular weapon -- for Captains, of course, that's the Halberd.

    That passive bonus is distinct from any special buff inherent to the weapon type. (Example: Swords give a 1% parry buff, always.) The inherent bonus for halberds used to be a 2% threat buff. With Captains being a (mostly) non-tanking class, a lot of cappies went with a sword (after traiting the Man sword bonus). With only one class permitted to use halberds, and that class largely opting not to, halberds became an endangered species.

    So, the halberd threat bonus was replaced -- it's now a 2% auto-attack crit buff. (Hover over your halberd to see it in the tool-tip.) This means you can get slightly more DPS with a halberd than with a 2H sword, *and* you don't have to use up a racial trait.

    So I think for cappies, halberds are probably the 2H weapon of choice now.
    Unless you tank a lot. The new captain tanking yellow tree is certainly viable in 6 man and faceroll difficulty 12 man content (and in specific circumstances even the more challenging 12 man).

    IMHO the 2% parry chance is a bigger difference in tanking (since it appears to go over the 25% rating based cap) than 2% autoattack crit is in DPS (though since autoattacks do make a decent proportion of our damage, the halberd is still pretty good).

 

 
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