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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    Keep in mind that the patch notes did clearly state that those miscellaneous bug fixes had to do with landscaping (this bush is neon green!), typos (I'm supposed to do WHAT?!), and so on. This is relatively common.
    No they didnt, not in the slightest,
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...46#post7040346

    the release notes are full of skill fixes, quest fixes, fixes to epic battles, the moors, the UI the list goes on.

    If your going to make statements like that at least read the text you quoted first, the miscellaneous bugs that you say came to a staggering 8, count the rest of the fixes and tell me they are to do with landscaping and typos.

    bug fixes of the type we saw in 12.1 and of that quantity is not common.

  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    This is why including steps to recreate are very important when filing a bug report. If we can't recreate it internally, then it's much more difficult to deal with.

    I can promise you that we care about this game more than anyone. It seems people forget that for most of you this is a game, for us this is how we feed our families. Making sure we're able to continue doing so is very important to us all. Thus the success of the game is very important to us.

    There is also the issue of priority. A bug that's a little annoying is going to get a lower priority than a bug that actually causes the game to come crashing down. Likewise a bug that blocks the only possible path of progressionin the game will get more attention than the bug in one side quest that doesn't block progression through the main part of the game.

    As with most things, the thing you find mos annoying/important/urgent is subjective and might not actually be the most pressing issue to resolve.
    You DO realize that what the OP asks for is not necessarily that bugs be resolved right away? That he is mainly speaking about ACKNOWLEDING them, at the very least (bonus points of course for actually fixing a thing or two before breaking ten others)?

    The guard response issue would qualify as a fine example of what the OP would be talking about.
    It would, surely, not be too hard for your precious QA Team to get a guard character, equip sword and shield, run into a couple enemies and hit pledge?
    Then send a minion or other here to at least acknowledge that yes, indeed, it IS an issue, an easily reckognizable one, to boot, and yes, it IS going to be adressed?
    Or are we to gather from the continued utter silence on the matter that this is somehow considered a minor annoyance? Then I would urge you guys to reconsider what qualifies as criteria over there.

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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbylobs View Post
    No they didnt, not in the slightest,
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...46#post7040346

    the release notes are full of skill fixes, quest fixes, fixes to epic battles, the moors, the UI the list goes on.

    If your going to make statements like that at least read the text you quoted first, the miscellaneous bugs that you say came to a staggering 8, count the rest of the fixes and tell me they are to do with landscaping and typos.

    bug fixes of the type we saw in 12.1 and of that quantity is not common.
    Two of the 'fixes' had to do with icons:
    *Numerous icons have been updated to better reflect what they are trying to represent.
    *Many duplicate icons have been updated to avoid confusion, especially with class skills and items.

    Can anyone tell me which icons were changed? Neither harvest icons (e.g. pears looking like cherries) nor ore icons (e.g. westemnet ores resembling eastemnet ores) nor recipe colors (westemnet and eastemnet recipes having the same color) show any improvement since 12.1. It's a bit confusing in inventory/vault.
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  4. #29
    sapience since you recently commented on bugs...would you please use 2014 to fix draigoch bugging out at the end. I can for sure say I have at least sent 3 bug reports on this myself and that was over the last 2 years:-P

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarian_Grace View Post
    Interesting line of inquiry. Those two groups of players apparently make up less than 20% of the total population and so their desires fall by the wayside to feed the 80%. apparently it's good business practice to shed up to 20% of your customer base through neglect.

    Spock once said the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. damm that Vulcan.
    I see this comment all over, but what I don't understand is...who are the ones paying all the money for this game? Most "casuals" I know don't spend $40-100 on LIs to raid with, or creep skills, or PvP tomes, or anything else in the store that could be used out in the moors or in raids.

    Sure, maybe casuals just LOVE their horses, and that's cool, there's some money for Turbine, but IN MY OPINION raiders, and PvPers bring in more money. So not to care about that 20% that puts more money into their game than the other 80% is insanity.

    I also understand maybe they're understaffed. That's a good possibility considering they had/have some Devs taking over more than one class. But it would just be really nice for them to post serious, non-sarcastic comments on both the raid forums and the PvP forums. Maybe, if you made it seem like you care as much as you say, people wouldn't flame. I have no doubt you care, but it just doesn't seem like it.

    Just my two cents, even though the chances of it being responded to are very slim.

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by b4jet9597 View Post
    I see this comment all over, but what I don't understand is...who are the ones paying all the money for this game? Most "casuals" I know don't spend $40-100 on LIs to raid with, or creep skills, or PvP tomes, or anything else in the store that could be used out in the moors or in raids.

    Sure, maybe casuals just LOVE their horses, and that's cool, there's some money for Turbine, but IN MY OPINION raiders, and PvPers bring in more money. So not to care about that 20% that puts more money into their game than the other 80% is insanity.

    I also understand maybe they're understaffed. That's a good possibility considering they had/have some Devs taking over more than one class. But it would just be really nice for them to post serious, non-sarcastic comments on both the raid forums and the PvP forums. Maybe, if you made it seem like you care as much as you say, people wouldn't flame. I have no doubt you care, but it just doesn't seem like it.

    Just my two cents, even though the chances of it being responded to are very slim.
    Please don't misunderstand me I also find this lamentable. I also see that raiders and pvpers have lots of spending power. I was using those silly numbers to actually show how significant it would be to lose! rather than how small we supposedly are. how many businesses can lose 20% of their customer base and go from strength to strength? not many I should think
    Last edited by Eldarian_Grace; Jan 10 2014 at 12:52 AM.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    In a nutshell, yes. All bugs carry a certain amount of work and a certain level of halo effect. Does fixes X change Y? Sometimes you don't know until you actually crack open X and discover it's connected to A-F and W-Z. The more complex the problem, the more time it takes to pull the spaghetti apart and make sure you aren't accidentally breaking several other things. Sometimes you do, so you go back and revert your fix because you actually created 5 more bugs. So you let the issue stand until you can get the full fix in, tested, and working correctly.

    There is also the issue of priority. A bug that's a little annoying is going to get a lower priority than a bug that actually causes the game to come crashing down. Likewise a bug that blocks the only possible path of progressionin the game will get more attention than the bug in one side quest that doesn't block progression through the main part of the game.

    As with most things, the thing you find mos annoying/important/urgent is subjective and might not actually be the most pressing issue to resolve.

    A good example would be if there is a color that isn't dying right when you try to dye over it and another bug that is blocking all players from turning in the final item in a quest chain that unlocks the next set of quests, you can bet the dye color is the bottom of the pile. Even if it's wrecking your holiday dress.
    I must say.. I find this interesting since Draigoth is STILL bugging out when we go back on a "Lets see if they fixed this because the cloaks look cool" run. He never did ever get fixed by what we have encountered. And he was the end game raid at taht time.. not like it was progression blocking after the new expansions came out tho.

    As a side note, I only read Sapience's post, as I came here from the dev tracker. No idea what the OP or any others have said.

  8. #33
    Hey, I am sorry to everyone else. I wanted to get Mar-Evayave and answer to his question. This may be a bore for anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    Also, what specifically are you having trouble with? I see you mention some spider quest. You mean the one inside the Glittering Caves? I'm confused where your problem with that would be. For whatever reason, I seem to get that side quest every time I run Glittering Caves and I never have trouble with it. It's one of the easiest side quests. Unless that's not the spider quest you refer to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    Between lag and general frustration, I'm lucky if I can make silver and gold, much less platinum, so I can't say much here. Can you elaborate on exactly what has been attempted?
    First post you say you never have problems with the quest - second post you say you are lucky to complete it on silver/gold. *confused* Maybe we have a different definition of "never have trouble". If i do not get platinum, I say I had a problem with it. Granted, this was not true when I started the EBs. In the beginning, I was happy to get a silver. But I have worked on them daily for months, and I am usually able to get platinum on all of the solo/duo and small fellow quests (the ones that are not bugged ... or that I think are bugged ... I have not seen an official list as to which ones are bugged.)

    Here are the issues I have had with the spider side quest in glittering caves: I have done the quest both on single/duo and also on small fellowship and have the same problem. You can kill all the spiders before they get close to the crystal. You can also open every single cocoon. Then you can kill the boss mob. There is NOTHING left to do... and you will still only get a gold completion. A gold completion means there is no chance to get a platinum for the EB. You have a chance to get the spider side quest if the EB started on the west of the map... So, if you want to have a chance to get a platinum for the instance - you have to enter the instance. Wait for it to start. If it starts on the west - exit the instance and start it over. Otherwise you are up against a bugged quest and no platinum for the day. Sometimes you have to exit and re-enter the instance 4-5 times to get the east side. And, since you have to start a different instance between tries (to clear out the instance and restart it) - 5 tries means 10 instance started. You can only start 10 instances per hour - so your instance starter is locked for an hour. Then if you do get the instance to start on the east, you are going to get the "cave in" quest. Unfortunately, this quest is buggy too. Sometimes you complete the quest - get the marks/medallions - but the quest never ends. The timer keeps ticking until it expires and then you get a message "Failed Quest". If you get the "Failed Quest" bug when you really completed the side quest (to the point of getting the marks/medallions) and you want to get your platinum for the day, you have to exit the instance - restart is a couple more times until you get the east side again - then go through the "cave in" quest again and hope it does not bug on completion.

    Today was a particularly frustrating day. We got the west side over and over until the instance finder was locked. Then we had to wait an hour for it to unlock. Then we got the west a couple more times before we got the east. We did the east until the 'Cave In' and it bugged. Exit and restart. A couple more west side starts before we got east again. We completed 'Cave In' again, and it bugged again. Exit the instance and the instance finder was locked again. Waited another hour. A couple more starts before we finally got east again, and the 'Cave In' failed again. We said, "forget it" and just took the gold for the day. With the chance of a gold set item being the only real reward for the instances (which it is after you have every piece of set jewelry), anything but a platinum result is worthless and you have wasted a day.

    So here is an example of two bugged quests in the same instance that make it VERY frustrating. I have two good friends I run with. Since we all play together - we make a small fellowship. This is the ONLY small fellowship EB, so we are up against this every day. It becomes annoying.

    I am sorry if this is hard to follow. I have re-read and re-worded it like 8 times already. I still think it may be hard to follow what I am trying to say.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pie4all View Post

    I am sorry if this is hard to follow. I have re-read and re-worded it like 8 times already. I still think it may be hard to follow what I am trying to say.
    not hard to follow at all. That quest is bugged. it is either meant to release more rohirrim or meant to give more medal leveling up juice per good thing you do. Platinum is impossible to get yes. it looks like it's working well enough but as it's completable and we'll frankly easy, but no luck if your after platinum. might as well forget about it.

    The random loot (no choice on item or type) is frustrating, the random side quests leaving ones you never seem to quite get is frustrating. Why is random the way forward? barter items seemed to have worked just fine in the past ( rohan rings , draigoch scales, moria coins, ToO cloak upgrades) now we have random jewelry bestowed upon us whilst rubbing our noses in with the sets. (is it raids we need to do for seals then barter?)
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarian_Grace View Post
    Please don't misunderstand me I also find this lamentable. I also see that raiders and pvpers have lots of spending power. I was using those silly numbers to actually show how significant it would be to lose! rather than how small we supposedly are. how many businesses can lose 20% of their customer base and go from strength to strength? not many I should think
    Totally understand, I was just using your post as a base to what I had to say.

    Also, it has been said that raiders and PvPers are 20% of the total population, but I find that terribly hard to believe.

    Lastly, I liked your Spoc quote so much I needed to re-post it!

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarian_Grace View Post
    not hard to follow at all. That quest is bugged. it is either meant to release more rohirrim or meant to give more medal leveling up juice per good thing you do. Platinum is impossible to get yes. it looks like it's working well enough but as it's completable and we'll frankly easy, but no luck if your after platinum. might as well forget about it.

    The random loot (no choice on item or type) is frustrating, the random side quests leaving ones you never seem to quite get is frustrating. Why is random the way forward? barter items seemed to have worked just fine in the past ( rohan rings , draigoch scales, moria coins, ToO cloak upgrades) now we have random jewelry bestowed upon us whilst rubbing our noses in with the sets. (is it raids we need to do for seals then barter?)
    First off, sorry for double post, didn't see this.

    What a lot of people have started doing, is they get tired of the random drops that for some reason never seem to drop what you actually want, and they spam BG, or Thorog to get seals and barter for the gear they want, at insane prices.

    If you didn't know, the vendor is in Helms Deep. He's next to the rep guys.

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  12. #37
    If a company released a car or other hardware with 600 faults it would soon be out of business.
    The ability to update software has allowed companies to release software in an unfinished state and allow them to use users as beta testers, even after it's been beta tested. It allows for lazy QA.
    It's seems that turbine are sticking it out there and fixing it later rather than getting it right in the first place. The reason is testing costs money.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbylobs View Post
    No they didnt, not in the slightest,
    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...46#post7040346

    the release notes are full of skill fixes, quest fixes, fixes to epic battles, the moors, the UI the list goes on.

    If your going to make statements like that at least read the text you quoted first, the miscellaneous bugs that you say came to a staggering 8, count the rest of the fixes and tell me they are to do with landscaping and typos.

    bug fixes of the type we saw in 12.1 and of that quantity is not common.
    Please read a wee bit closer. In that exact post you linked, right at the top, it says:

    Update 12.1 features more than 600 bug fixes, adjustments, changes and tweaks. These release notes reflect the major player facing changes that have been made. We didn’t think it would be terribly interesting reading a full and complete list of every typo, graphical adjustment, physics adjustment, localization change, and assorted effect tweaks made since Helm’s Deep launched.
    Typos, graphic adjustments, physics adjustments (like floating ore nodes -- saw a few of those), localization change, assorted effect tweaks, etc. The exact type of things I gave examples of. More than 600 fixes, the overwhelming majority being the aforementioned typos, graphics fixes, etc. What is not stated is whether the "over 600 bug fixes" include the 150-200ish listed below or not. So we are talking some 400ish unlisted fixes of the types I mentioned, plus the 200ish listed fixes for classes, EBs, etc. OR those 600 bug fixes mentioned are all missing, and the listed ones are on top of that (bringing the overall count up to 800ish). Regardless, there are more unlisted fixes than there are listed ones, and they are the ones described as being grammatical fixes, graphics adjustments, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pie4all View Post
    Hey, I am sorry to everyone else. I wanted to get Mar-Evayave and answer to his question. This may be a bore for anyone else.
    I have to leave for work, but when I get back later today, I'll come and respond to your post!
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  14. #39
    For those who feel LOTRO is far behind the competition in terms of reliability --
    There is a whole web site that tracks and describes the numerous bugs in Microsoft Office, some of which have been known issues for years. Google also has a web site tracking dozens of major bugs in each one of their applications. The numerous minor bugs aren't even listed, but a 3rd party tracking site I found has a list longer than my arm. They're both doing fine as companies. Here's a sample Hot Fix document for World of Warcraft, which also has well over a hundred issues listed. (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/10932273/)

    LOTRO feels "less polished" to me than other MMOs, because of the number of lesser "nuisance bugs" that I encounter, namely little frustrating bugs that come up every single time I play. I have been told by other players that those bugs aren't important and Turbine shouldn't waste time fixing them, but they do lead to the impression that LOTRO is more buggy than other MMOs (or major software suites in general). It's a constant source of low-grade frustration and I have seen it chase off new players that I invited to the game.

    However, that being said, I don't see at a logical level how LOTRO is any more bug-ridden than its competitors. I asked my co-workers who have a well-organized WoW raid guild about bugs -- they went on a rant for the entire lunch hour and made WoW sound much buggier and exploitable than LOTRO, by far. It looks to me like LOTRO gets a bum rap for being more buggy when compared to other equally-sized projects than it actually is.

    Simply put, the bugs that affect us are the ones we're most likely to notice and care about. Unfortunately, our emotional perceptions don't always match up with numerical reality. We all hope that Turbine fixes the bugs that impact us first, but every player has a different priority list. Turbine has a vested interest in making the game as good as possible, for the greatest number of players possible. I think the best thing we can do is to politely express our concerns and requests, send in detailed /bug reports, and be patient until the day the latest Release Notes bring us good news. I doubt the derogatory and insulting posts we see out there in the forums convince anyone to fix anything.

    Remember, despite all the bugs, we can still play the game and have a great time with our friends. Try not to let the bugs get to you.
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  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    Please read a wee bit closer. In that exact post you linked, right at the top, it says:
    Typos, graphic adjustments, physics adjustments (like floating ore nodes -- saw a few of those), localization change, assorted effect tweaks, etc. The exact type of things I gave examples of.
    Yes and what I was pointing out is that is completely misleading, there are over 200 bugs LISTED in those release notes, bugs and fixes that Turbine say are "These release notes reflect the major player facing changes that have been made"
    and when they say "Update 12.1 features more than 600 bug fixes, adjustments, changes and tweaks" it very clearly means that out of those 600 bugs 1/3 were major bugs.Even if they were trying to pass 800 off as "over 600" to try and look a tad better thats still 1/4 of them classified as major. And thats IF there are not more major ones hiding in the unlisted section that turbine decided not to mention (still to this day they havent put Draigochs bugs on any release notes but I guarantee you they exist) who's to say they havent cooked the numbers slightly by hiding a few away, I know of at least 2 that are not on that lost, the quickslot problem and the Moors exploit, both need fixing , neither are listed on that page, so they are in the unlisted section, I bet there are more.

    You were trying to portray the notion that HD was released with lots of bugs the "overwhelming majority" of which were minor , niff naff things, which is false. HD was released with over 600 bugs and things that needed adjusting, 200+ of which were Major, and thats after an 8 week beta period, I was pointing out that that isnt normal ( as you stated) and neither is it acceptable, and still to this day some of the bigger ones are not fixed, such as the Moors issues and the quickslot problems and lots of things with the BBs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mar-Evayave View Post
    What is not stated is whether the "over 600 bug fixes" include the 150-200ish listed below or not.
    yes it does "Update 12.1 features more than 600 bug fixes, adjustments, changes and tweaks" thats as clear as it gets , 12.1 had 600 fixes, listed below are the Major ones, thats clearly what it is saying.But if you still want to argue semantics, either they released HD with 600 bugs with a 1/3 of them Major, or they released it with more bugs (800) and the ratio of Major ones was less(1/4), either way its nothing to be proud of, in fact its pretty poor, and arguing which one is best is laughable, but hey we all have different standards when it comes to making decisions on quality.
    Last edited by bobbylobs; Jan 10 2014 at 11:06 AM.

  16. #41
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobbylobs View Post
    and when they say "Update 12.1 features more than 600 bug fixes, adjustments, changes and tweaks" it very clearly means that out of those 600 bugs 1/3 were major bugs.Even if they were trying to pass 800 off as "over 600" to try and look a tad better thats still 1/4 of them classified as major. And thats IF there are not more major ones hiding in the unlisted section that turbine decided not to mention (still to this day they havent put Draigochs bugs on any release notes but I guarantee you they exist) who's to say they havent cooked the numbers slightly by hiding a few away, I know of at least 2 that are not on that lost, the quickslot problem and the Moors exploit, both need fixing , neither are listed on that page, so they are in the unlisted section, I bet there are more.

    You were trying to portray the notion that HD was released with lots of bugs the "overwhelming majority" of which were minor , niff naff things, which is false. HD was released with over 600 bugs and things that needed adjusting, 200+ of which were Major, and thats after an 8 week beta period, I was pointing out that that isnt normal ( as you stated) and neither is it acceptable, and still to this day some of the bigger ones are not fixed, such as the Moors issues and the quickslot problems and lots of things with the BBs.

    The problem with trying to create your own narrative around something with absolutely no actual knowlege is that you are usually going to end up completely wrong as you did in this case. many of the 600 bugs mentioned had been in the game for quite some time. Typos, little graphical hitches, etc. Most were minor enough that I'd guess the overwhelming majority of players never noticed. However, some devs decided to go through and wipe out as many minors as they could before the new year.

    What's more, bugs like those are almost always part of a patch. Though we don't usually call it out because it's a handful here and there. The reason we called these out this time was due to the number we addressed and the fact that this is a tone we hope to set for 2014 (as reflected in Kate's letter) that polishing up some of the rough spots, even those listed as minors, is taking place.

    using your narrative, the following was a 'major' bug in Helm's Deep because it got a unique listing.

    The Prized Eorlingas Horse/Pony and Prized Helmingas Horse/Pony have had their hair and hides updated with new appearances.
    When the reality is what I said before, this is something player facing that players are going to see has changed. Thus, it merits a note.


    Or of you look at something like this note, also from 12.1
    The Universal Toolkit should now reduce Scholar gathering times appropriately.
    Which obviously was introduced prior to Helm's Deep. So it was a lower priority bug that got fixed as soon as the team had time after Helm's Deep launched.


    If something is really and truly broken. And broken means it is stopping players from actually playing the game and progressing through the content, that's usually going to be in a hot fix very soon after launch. Days not weeks.

  17. #42
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    Hi, mind if I play through?

    I've been reading through this thread, and something has occurred to me that seems to have been lost in the focus on the number "600". Is it not possible that one reason so many minor bugs (floating nodes, typos, etc.) got past the developers and weren't fixed during beta was because they made such a big class change on top of the expansion? If the beta testers were blasting them constantly with class change and big battle and quest issues, the minor details most likely were allowed to simply sit, rather than a manager assigning one developer to correcting them during beta testing.

    I get the impression that this beta, more than other recent ones, was an "All hands on deck! Repair the damage below the water line ASAP!" situation rather than "all hands on deck! Repair that railing...oh, and while you're at it paint that mizzenmast, too!" sort of situation. I've worked on a number of virtual science education projects, and I know from experience that animation/graphic accuracy gets a lot more focus than typos during beta testing, and for good reason. Spelling, grammar, and semantics are absolutely important, and those of us doing quality control definitely point them out in our reports. However, you can have the most perfect text in the world and have failed at producing a marketable product if the animations and graphics are bugged and/or scientifically incorrect.

    Now, I HAVE to insist that the spelling, grammar, and semantics are corrected before release along with animations and graphics, for obvious reasons. But a game is a slightly different kettle of fish. A spelling error or a floating node might be annoying, but they don't break the game. So the allocation of manpower is skewed toward fixing major problems and the small stuff is put aside for the patch.

    I'm viewing HD as a double major update--a full expansion (Don't flame me over "full", please. I know people are not happy with amount of content but that's not the focus of my post) AND a major class/trait change. So let me pose this question, at the risk of being swarmed: If Sapience had not mentioned the infamous "600 bugs", and simply said "a number of minor bugs of types P, Q, R and S" were fixed, and then given the existing list of major fixes that were performed--would everyone be so incensed over the number of bug fixes?

    Secondly, is 200 major fixes completely unreasonable given that the devs released an update that was double what they would normally release? How many major fixes do you normally see in the first major patch after a regular expansion, particularly when major new game mechanics are introduced? I ask this out of genuine curiosity as someone who hasn't been here during previous expansions.

    *sidles over to the darkest corner and clicks Hide in Plain Sight on her burg while her mini activates her morale bubble*

    UPDATE : I wondered if some of the minor bugs were sitting around from previous bug reports. Thank you for clearing that up, Sapience.
    Last edited by SouthernBelle0927; Jan 10 2014 at 12:04 PM. Reason: Sapience answered before I hit ENTER!!!!

  18. #43
    i could care less about player power relative to pve content

    i could care less about the grind


    i could care less about legendaries

    i could care less about the lore


    what i care about is the fact that brandywine is an unplayable mess of a laggy POS server no matter what time of the day or night i play or what day or night of the week i play. THIS should be turbines priority over anything else.

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    using your narrative, the following was a 'major' bug in Helm's Deep because it got a unique listing.
    Its not my narrative it was yours, the text quoting what was major was lifted straight from YOUR words from YOUR release notes, I will highlight it just so you dont overlook it again. https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...46#post7040346

    Of Special Note
    Update 12.1 features more than 600 bug fixes, adjustments, changes and tweaks. These release notes reflect the major player facing changes that have been made. We didn’t think it would be terribly interesting reading a full and complete list of every typo, graphical adjustment, physics adjustment, localization change, and assorted effect tweaks made since Helm’s Deep launched.

    So if you didnt want to have people thinking the release notes reflected major player facing changes, then you should have took more care when you wrote words stating that, sometimes, it IS what you say ,not how you say it that makes a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    If something is really and truly broken. And broken means it is stopping players from actually playing the game and progressing through the content, that's usually going to be in a hot fix very soon after launch. Days not weeks
    I asked this same question before but you didnt answer it , maybe you will this time, Draigoch has lots of bugs, which do prevent you from completing content, there are 3 that I know of in that one instance.
    1, the head and claws are 90 degrees out from each other,which means the "picture" of the head is not where it actually is, you end up tanking thin air, but you need to be there to aggro it, which means you need to employ 2 head tanks to cover which way it goes, in order to stop a cave in.
    2, randomly claws cannot be damaged, thus ending the run there and then,
    3, and most famously, in the last phase Draigoch goes numb and you cannot damage him at all, again ending the run,this one has been active since it was released the other two seem fairly new.

    these 3 bugs lead the vast majority of Draigoch runs to be unfinishable, Draigoch is content that had to be purchased as part of the RoI Instance cluster, its been 3 years ish since it was released, that doesnt tie in very well with " going to be in a hot fix very soon after launch" or "Days not weeks", then there is the lag issues in Flight (out for nearly a year), which again cause the content to be unfinishable most of the time, and the issues with getting a platinum in the Glittering caves BBs.(coming on 2 months)

    So forgive me if what you say is taken with a pinch of salt, Actions speak louder than words , after all.
    Last edited by bobbylobs; Jan 10 2014 at 12:57 PM.

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
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    Glasgow, Scotland
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    i could care less about player power relative to pve content

    i could care less about the grind


    i could care less about legendaries

    i could care less about the lore
    It's I COULDN'T care less! What you are saying makes no sense at all! Sorry to be picky but this was genuinely painful to read.

  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    The problem with trying to create your own narrative around something with absolutely no actual knowlege is that you are usually going to end up completely wrong as you did in this case. many of the 600 bugs mentioned had been in the game for quite some time. Typos, little graphical hitches, etc. Most were minor enough that I'd guess the overwhelming majority of players never noticed. However, some devs decided to go through and wipe out as many minors as they could before the new year.

    What's more, bugs like those are almost always part of a patch. Though we don't usually call it out because it's a handful here and there. The reason we called these out this time was due to the number we addressed and the fact that this is a tone we hope to set for 2014 (as reflected in Kate's letter) that polishing up some of the rough spots, even those listed as minors, is taking place.

    using your narrative, the following was a 'major' bug in Helm's Deep because it got a unique listing.



    When the reality is what I said before, this is something player facing that players are going to see has changed. Thus, it merits a note.


    Or of you look at something like this note, also from 12.1


    Which obviously was introduced prior to Helm's Deep. So it was a lower priority bug that got fixed as soon as the team had time after Helm's Deep launched.


    If something is really and truly broken. And broken means it is stopping players from actually playing the game and progressing through the content, that's usually going to be in a hot fix very soon after launch. Days not weeks.
    Just accept the you and your team failed completly with this expansion! The little end-game content we get is buged. Everything is buged. Seriously, when we hit 95 we had 5 new instances(bbs), 3 of them couldnt be completed in platinum. If you cant release 5 new instances without bugs something must be wrong with your developers. Its not small bugs wich can be acceptable, its gamebreaking bugs. Why would i run a instance wich cant be completed, or why would i do the quests in them if they cant be completed. You have destroyed the pve in this game wich has been the strenght of lotro for years, you have destroyed the pvp aswell. What about the macro exploiters? No words on that yet?

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBelle0927 View Post
    I'm viewing HD as a double major update--a full expansion (Don't flame me over "full", please. I know people are not happy with amount of content but that's not the focus of my post) AND a major class/trait change. So let me pose this question, at the risk of being swarmed: If Sapience had not mentioned the infamous "600 bugs", and simply said "a number of minor bugs of types P, Q, R and S" were fixed, and then given the existing list of major fixes that were performed--would everyone be so incensed over the number of bug fixes?

    Secondly, is 200 major fixes completely unreasonable given that the devs released an update that was double what they would normally release? How many major fixes do you normally see in the first major patch after a regular expansion, particularly when major new game mechanics are introduced? I ask this out of genuine curiosity as someone who hasn't been here during previous expansions.

    *sidles over to the darkest corner and clicks Hide in Plain Sight on her burg while her mini activates her morale bubble*

    UPDATE : I wondered if some of the minor bugs were sitting around from previous bug reports. Thank you for clearing that up, Sapience.
    First off, dont hide no one bites here, its healthy to discuss stuff, jump in while the water is hot.

    2nd, yes I would still be unhappy tbh, that many bugs is not acceptable especially since a lot were reported in beta, but lets make one thing clear here, focusing on 600 fixes is not the issue that means 600 things have been fixed, the problem is also what has not been fixed, if 12.1 fixed 600 things how many other things didnt get fixed? I have listed 2 fairly big ones further up , but I know of lots more (and yes they have been reported).

    Now there is an opportunity this year, with no expansion, to do a bit of husbandry, to purge through the game and clear these bugs out, there is no excuse now, things like Draigoch(which btw turbine are still selling even though they know its not WAI) and the moors exploits should be tackled and sorted once and for all, there is no reason whatsoever to go into 2015 and have to release content and a month later an update with 600+ fixes attached to

  23. #48
    Join Date
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    616
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbylobs View Post
    First off, dont hide no one bites here, its healthy to discuss stuff, jump in while the water is hot.

    2nd, yes I would still be unhappy tbh, that many bugs is not acceptable especially since a lot were reported in beta, but lets make one thing clear here, focusing on 600 fixes is not the issue that means 600 things have been fixed, the problem is also what has not been fixed, if 12.1 fixed 600 things how many other things didnt get fixed? I have listed 2 fairly big ones further up , but I know of lots more (and yes they have been reported).

    Now there is an opportunity this year, with no expansion, to do a bit of husbandry, to purge through the game and clear these bugs out, there is no excuse now, things like Draigoch(which btw turbine are still selling even though they know its not WAI) and the moors exploits should be tackled and sorted once and for all, there is no reason whatsoever to go into 2015 and have to release content and a month later an update with 600+ fixes attached to

    *unclicks HiPS and allows morale bubble to expire* Thanks! I learned a long time ago not to fear asking questions, but I know this particular topic is a major sore point with the long-timers. Precautions seemed to be in order as a relative newbie.

    I suppose I'm a little less stressed over the situation since I'm still working toward level cap on my first pc (mini). She just escaped Isengard, and my burg has just now rescued Golodir from Mordirith. I haven't encountered the major bugs that are driving everyone crazy yet, although I'm definitely in the camp of minstrels who are seriously bummed about Rally! being stuffed into the capstone slot of the blue line. Enlivening Grace is useless if you can't get out of combat long enough for it to rez a fellow and allow them to recover power. *takes deep breath and mentally counts to 10 in 3 live languages and 1 dead one*

    I can, however, sympathize with everyone who's fighting one or more significant bugs that have been ongoing for quite a while over many pcs. I want the game to be the best it can be, too. As a biologist, I'm all too aware that what works great in isolation can create an organismal train wreck when put into its natural system. Figuring out WHY is not necessarily simple, because there may be a number of different points in the pathway where things might have gone awry to generate seemingly unrelated events. This, I believe, is what the devs face with some of the ongoing bugs. Now that they're not splitting their attention between trouble-shooting and new development, we may see some of the perennial problem children in the bug cage sorted out.

    As for the "but it's been TWO months!!!!!" stuff that some people keep spouting, count me out of this complaint entirely. This was the first year in 8 years I haven't spent my entire holiday chained to my laptop working over the holiday, so I KNOW what it's like to have to take work with me on vacation because of deadlines. I have absolutely no problem with the Turbine crew having time off to spend with family and get a well-deserved break from the development/testing/bug-chasing grind. Anyone who begrudges the team time off with their families over the holidays after the countless overtime hours spent on the expansion, especially anyone who had 2-3 weeks off and nothing better to do than game and sleep, needs to buy a few Empathy virtue tomes and stop being so selfish.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ilhsul View Post
    It's I COULDN'T care less! What you are saying makes no sense at all! Sorry to be picky but this was genuinely painful to read.
    i could care less about your reading pain

  25. #50
    If something is really and truly broken. And broken means it is stopping players from actually playing the game and progressing through the content, that's usually going to be in a hot fix very soon after launch. Days not weeks.
    I don't think it is unfair to say that Epic Battles were the main attraction of the HD expansion. We got no classic instances or any other novel end-game content. Nor do I think it is unfair to expect that, a month after release, each component of the system should be at least functional, even if bugs remain. Currently there are at least three side quests for which a platinum reward is either impossible (spiders) or extremely unlikely and based entirely on lucking out rather than on skillfully working with the mechanics (cave in, clearing the debris). Given that Epic Battles are the sole new-with-HD endgame content, and given that a goal for many players is mastering the end-game, it looks to me like these issues are stopping players from progressing through the content. Finally I don't think it is unfair to expect at least minimal communication about such issues, which is what the OP seemed to be initially addressing. Are these side quests slated to be fixed? Are the bugs acknowledged? What sort of priority do they have?

 

 
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