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  1. #1

    Noble Mark: Revert To Threat-Managing SKill

    I made this argument in a different conversation, but it is buried and somewhat off-topic, so I thought I'd pull it in its own thread, and elaborate a bit.


    So after playing around with the Captain a bit, and nosing around the forums, a couple of things have become somewhat self-evident: (1) traiting Yellow allows the Captain to faceroll a lot of content, and (2) the inability to manage aggro in any form or shape unless traited yellow is somewhat annoying. So here is my proposition to fix both of these with one swing:

    (1) Remove the self-heal from Noble Mark (it's so massive that it's probably a little broken anyhow).
    (2) Instead, add a threat (over time) component similar to how the mark functioned before the revamp, basically giving the Captain the ability to pull and reliably hold a single mob.

    This will give Captains the ability to have single-target aggro in all lines (albeit with a little cross-spec), and multi-target aggro if they spec yellow. Somehow that intuitively makes sense to me, both from gameplay and lore perspective. It will also eliminate the somewhat comical "war of attrition" strategy where you just sit and chop at a marked opponent, never running out of morale in the process.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
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    (1) Removing the Self-heal at this point is a bit risky until we know how much the 12.2 balancing changes will affect the class. If the contribution to mitigations from Might and Vitality is lowered our class can quickly become more squishy than it is now, making the heal just fine. Also, I'd guess the heals you get from Noble Mark also build threat as long as it's not overhealing.
    (2) Well, given how we build threat through damage and Noble Mark deals damage it is already building threat. As for being able to hold a mob reliably just by popping Noble Mark on it sounds a lot too easy to me.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    (1) Removing the Self-heal at this point is a bit risky until we know how much the 12.2 balancing changes will affect the class. If the contribution to mitigations from Might and Vitality is lowered our class can quickly become more squishy than it is now, making the heal just fine. Also, I'd guess the heals you get from Noble Mark also build threat as long as it's not overhealing.
    That's true. One of my considerations is simply that I'm not a big fan of proc healing of this sort. Not only does it take playing the game out of the game (if this makes any sense :P), but also massive morale + massive self-heals = recipe for disaster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    (2) Well, given how we build threat through damage and Noble Mark deals damage it is already building threat. As for being able to hold a mob reliably just by popping Noble Mark on it sounds a lot too easy to me.
    Yes, but that's pretty much the way it worked pre-HD. It was a good tactical tool to have in large fights, and helped break down the battlefield. Also, I don't think the damage from the mark is sufficient to hold aggro -- and the healing is not single-target threat.

    I will admit readily, though, that I don't quite understand the whole "threat simplification" argument. Yes, aggro should now come through damage and healing -- yet it always did. Sure, they did away with some threat-boosters, but not with all (e.g. various passive threat boosts for the guardian, grave wound, etc.) -- so it seems that it is still the same under the hood. Not sure how this makes it simpler, to me it simply seems less reliable. Most guardians have said that tanking is reduced to firing off as many forced taunts as you can. But maybe I just don't understand the changes well enough yet.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    That's true. One of my considerations is simply that I'm not a big fan of proc healing of this sort. Not only does it take playing the game out of the game (if this makes any sense :P), but also massive morale + massive heals = recipe for disaster.
    Yeah but with massive morale comes lower BPE compared to a BPE focused build, giving more options to reach your goal of survivability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    Yes, but that's pretty much the way it worked pre-HD. It was a good tactical tool to have in large fights, and helped break down the battlefield. Also, I don't think the damage from the mark is sufficient to hold aggro -- and the healing is not single-target threat.
    But did it work? At least for RoR, Noble Mark did not build enough aggro to be of much use IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    I will admit readily, though, that I don't quite understand the whole "threat simplification" argument. Yes, aggro should now come through damage and healing -- yet it always did. Sure, they did away with some threat-boosters, but not with all (e.g. various passive threat boosts for the guardian, grave wound, etc.) -- so it seems that it is still the same under the hood. Not sure how this makes it simpler, to me it simply seems less reliable. Most guardians have said that tanking is reduced to firing off as many forced taunts as you can. But maybe I just don't understand the changes well enough yet.
    Passive Threat still exists, but the whole "amount of threat" thing is gone as far as I understand (in RoR e.g. Wardens had a lot of "builds moderate/small amount of threat" gambits, they're gone now). I'm not sure if Guardians are much to go by atm as they're severely gimped in their use of block/parry events (which is the alternative to spamming force taunts), at least I find that healing (e.g. by traiting for Gallant Display in LoM) is really good for grabbing aggro on many mobs (with first boss in Bells of Dale being a good example if the DPS is focusing on boss).

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    Yeah but with massive morale comes lower BPE compared to a BPE focused build, giving more options to reach your goal of survivability..
    Is it really? We have Defensive Strike that procs for parry %, passive for evade %, and another passive for block %. Sure, we get no shields, but given that we can block regardless, and stack might, it looks like BPE should not be an issue (I don't have a full-gear end-game Captain, so this is academic at this point).



    Quote Originally Posted by Elrantiri View Post
    But did it work? At least for RoR, Noble Mark did not build enough aggro to be of much use IMO..
    I thought it did, though it may have been me (see above).


    Passive Threat still exists, but the whole "amount of threat" thing is gone as far as I understand (in RoR e.g. Wardens had a lot of "builds moderate/small amount of threat" gambits, they're gone now). I'm not sure if Guardians are much to go by atm as they're severely gimped in their use of block/parry events (which is the alternative to spamming force taunts), at least I find that healing (e.g. by traiting for Gallant Display in LoM) is really good for grabbing aggro on many mobs (with first boss in Bells of Dale being a good example if the DPS is focusing on boss).[/QUOTE]
    I imagine "passive threat" here means a % modifier to threat built via damage. Though not necessarily, I guess, since I'm not sure how threat on Guardian belts works at all. I thought they removed taunts from most if not all of shield skills, they surely did on Shield Swipe, and at least remodeled Shield-Taunt heavily (acts as a BPE debuff now). Though admittedly I'm waiting for BP events to get fixed before I reassess my guardian.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    Is it really? We have Defensive Strike that procs for parry %, passive for evade %, and another passive for block %. Sure, we get no shields, but given that we can block regardless, and stack might, it looks like BPE should not be an issue (I don't have a full-gear end-game Captain, so this is academic at this point).
    That depends on how you look at it. Getting decent BPE isn't hard, but at some point you can end up choosing between gear with +maximum morale on it or extra BPE, this choice is especially in regards to LI relics where you can get relics with either +300 morale or 600-1k BPE.
    My Captank setup is 27k-28k and has 30% block, 32% parry (with onguard) and about 23% evade, but I've seen some Captank with over 32k morale because they pick morale relics and gear rather than BPE gear. Also, our BPE from might will probably decrease with 12.2?




    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    I thought it did, though it may have been me (see above).

    I imagine "passive threat" here means a % modifier to threat built via damage. Though not necessarily, I guess, since I'm not sure how threat on Guardian belts works at all. I thought they removed taunts from most if not all of shield skills, they surely did on Shield Swipe, and at least remodeled Shield-Taunt heavily (acts as a BPE debuff now). Though admittedly I'm waiting for BP events to get fixed before I reassess my guardian.
    Yeah the Noble Mark issues was much more appearent at lvl 75 and onwards.

    Well, I imagine your threat level is given as a number (both before and efter revamp) and perceived just increased that number by a certain percentage. I don't know that much about Guardians and their current state as you say makes it kinda hard to determine what they're supposed to be like.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    I made this argument in a different conversation, but it is buried and somewhat off-topic, so I thought I'd pull it in its own thread, and elaborate a bit.


    So after playing around with the Captain a bit, and nosing around the forums, a couple of things have become somewhat self-evident: (1) traiting Yellow allows the Captain to faceroll a lot of content, and (2) the inability to manage aggro in any form or shape unless traited yellow is somewhat annoying. So here is my proposition to fix both of these with one swing:

    (1) Remove the self-heal from Noble Mark (it's so massive that it's probably a little broken anyhow).
    (2) Instead, add a threat (over time) component similar to how the mark functioned before the revamp, basically giving the Captain the ability to pull and reliably hold a single mob.

    This will give Captains the ability to have single-target aggro in all lines (albeit with a little cross-spec), and multi-target aggro if they spec yellow. Somehow that intuitively makes sense to me, both from gameplay and lore perspective. It will also eliminate the somewhat comical "war of attrition" strategy where you just sit and chop at a marked opponent, never running out of morale in the process.

    Thoughts?
    I don't normally run tank on my cappy (healing cappy at heart) but when I level with my husband I often do.

    My first though is that it would be easier to add the forced taunt to Grave Wound and it wouldn't require cross traiting, and would work with the new threat mechanics (which is why I think Noble Mark no long has the threat over time-not sure they can do treat over time with the new sysem).

    Overall I am frustrated though. We have two forced taunts, Threatening Shout (multi target) and Grave Wound (single target). That's it. I do fine running with my husband's hunter because I can use Threatening shout when we first go in and save Gave Wound for walkers and if he pulls threat. But add a champ to the mix and the champ ends up tanking. Threatening Shout has too long of a cooldown, or we need a second AOE taunt (I prefer the second). With champs running around yellow traited, hitting so many targets so well....it seems like with each hit they crit on one mob and they leave me and aggro the champ. I just used my forced taunt going in so now it is on cooldown. I can get the first guy back with Grave Wound but after that I have to just wait till Threatening Shout is back up and by that time we are usually down to one or two mobs so why bother. If I do use it then I have to have everyone wait for the cooldown to pull the next set of mobs.

    Am I missing something? I know it used to be that both Battle Shout and Routing Cry had AOE threat attached. I would love to see it added back to one of them.

    Claira
    Cappy Clairawen, 100 on Landroval
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by burningflame View Post
    Am I missing something? I know it used to be that both Battle Shout and Routing Cry had AOE threat attached. I would love to see it added back to one of them.
    The way Routing Cry works, it still has AoE threat attached, since damage = threat. The problem is that the a general lack of AoE damage skills means the Captain has difficulties generating AoE threat.

    Your best bet for area threat is picking up Gallant Display, as mentioned above, and firing both cries whenever they're available. And keeping a planted a banner next to you for extra damage.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by burningflame View Post
    I don't normally run tank on my cappy (healing cappy at heart) but when I level with my husband I often do.

    My first though is that it would be easier to add the forced taunt to Grave Wound and it wouldn't require cross traiting, and would work with the new threat mechanics (which is why I think Noble Mark no long has the threat over time-not sure they can do treat over time with the new sysem).

    Overall I am frustrated though. We have two forced taunts, Threatening Shout (multi target) and Grave Wound (single target). That's it. I do fine running with my husband's hunter because I can use Threatening shout when we first go in and save Gave Wound for walkers and if he pulls threat. But add a champ to the mix and the champ ends up tanking. Threatening Shout has too long of a cooldown, or we need a second AOE taunt (I prefer the second). With champs running around yellow traited, hitting so many targets so well....it seems like with each hit they crit on one mob and they leave me and aggro the champ. I just used my forced taunt going in so now it is on cooldown. I can get the first guy back with Grave Wound but after that I have to just wait till Threatening Shout is back up and by that time we are usually down to one or two mobs so why bother. If I do use it then I have to have everyone wait for the cooldown to pull the next set of mobs.

    Am I missing something? I know it used to be that both Battle Shout and Routing Cry had AOE threat attached. I would love to see it added back to one of them.

    Claira
    Adding force taunt to Grave Wound as default would be problematic for LtC Captains who dont want to tank. I'd rather see the trait for GW Force taunt becoming easier to get.

    As for your champion example I think you should consider it a potential advantage rather than a bad thing. By giving him shield-brother, healing him with Rallying Cry + Words of Courage and using In Harms Way, Shield of the Dunedain and Standard of Valour to increase the Champions survivability you don't need to tank much. The Champion will even be doing more damage when he is tanking because he can reflect damage and he gets a powerful attack when he's been attacked 10 times. Once your SotD or IHW runs out you can then use Threatening Shout to take aggro and then use Pressing Attack and Routing Cry to build extra threat.

    Routing Cry used to have a trait that gave Force Taunt.

  10. #10

    Bleed and heals

    Even on my guardian, I use bleed damage to help maintain threat, and I find that on the Cappy, heals, even Noble mark, which on my baby captain, are only doing about 30 per pulse atm... help hold threat. But I play my captain as a tank while I'm leveling him. I'll play round with red spec line when mobs are easy to learn what's what, but I stay in yellow for now. The 6-foe threat shout has a small enough cooldown that it's not too much of an issue to simply reuse if you place it conveniently. I agree that if you're in a group with a Champ, just let him tank and support, though. Not sure we're intended to compete with the "real tanks" like Champ and Guard in the realm of threat unless we're the only tank in the group.

    AoE's seem to refocus threat for me as well. Not many of those, but if I use one, all the foes around tend to run right at me. FYI, my Guardian uses a spear for the bleed effect for threat reasons (personal preference). And I don't think I've ever lost the attention of any creature I hit with Cappy's cutting attack, especially since I buffed bleed damage, hehe. However, they don't live through cutting attack often at level 40sih, especially since I save it for after Sword of Elendil buffs.

    The captain may behave differently at different levels though.

  11. #11
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    All they did to Noble Mark was revert it back to its' original functionality. Before it was changed into a mark for straight building threat/aggro it was ranged DPS like it is now, which at the time built threat and then was changed when they revamped stats. I don't think anyone is too sure right now about what the "simplification" of the threat mechanic means to everyone as it seems to me to be all over the place right now especially as we're going to, I imagine, have multiple updates before things are actually balanced. Honestly with the changes to the mechanic it probably does exactly the same thing as it did previously in any incarnation, i.e. help you pull threat from a single target.

    edit: Also in response to an above post in regards to our lack of AoE, I can pop off Pressing Attack to my hearts content in any line bc of DE's from crits and/or bpe's. With the legacy I can do a fair amount of AoE Dmg myself. We're not near as good as Champs at the whole AoE thing for sure, but then again we're not meant to be.
    Last edited by Steppenwulf; Jan 08 2014 at 11:47 PM.

  12. #12
    not sure what you think removing the self heal will solve. just put your extra points into blue and you'll get an even BETTER self heal. they would have to move the mark skills deeper down the trees at well.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    not sure what you think removing the self heal will solve. just put your extra points into blue and you'll get an even BETTER self heal. they would have to move the mark skills deeper down the trees at well.
    Then what's the problem with removing it. If you could get an even BETTER self-heal from blue, people should be doing it right now.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    That's true. One of my considerations is simply that I'm not a big fan of proc healing of this sort. Not only does it take playing the game out of the game (if this makes any sense :P), but also massive morale + massive self-heals = recipe for disaster.


    Yes, but that's pretty much the way it worked pre-HD. It was a good tactical tool to have in large fights, and helped break down the battlefield. Also, I don't think the damage from the mark is sufficient to hold aggro -- and the healing is not single-target threat.

    I will admit readily, though, that I don't quite understand the whole "threat simplification" argument. Yes, aggro should now come through damage and healing -- yet it always did. Sure, they did away with some threat-boosters, but not with all (e.g. various passive threat boosts for the guardian, grave wound, etc.) -- so it seems that it is still the same under the hood. Not sure how this makes it simpler, to me it simply seems less reliable. Most guardians have said that tanking is reduced to firing off as many forced taunts as you can. But maybe I just don't understand the changes well enough yet.
    I'm pretty sure the idea is to eliminate players from having to think about threat as a separate quantity/concept. That means eliminating all effects that either generate or remove threat as a separate abstract concept (which was done). All that's left is perceived threat modifiers, mostly for trait lines but still present on a couple of skills (Beneath Notice, e.g.). The idea being that the tank player is supposed to get into a threat-generating trait line, and then just do the obvious things that will influence the battle - hurting the enemy and healing self/friends. The only "taunt" or threat generation skill left are the force-taunt/threat copy skills, which are easy to understand ("it makes things attack me, and they might even keep on attacking me even after it wears off"). Have Noble Mark generate single-target "Threat" doesn't really make sense with the removal of all such effects. If the concern is to allow for off-tanking, you could simply remove 100% of the perceived threat modifier from the yellow line spec and have it be traitable instead. However, I question whether Turbine even wants off-tanking outside of yellow. We're already pretty darn good at healing for a DPS traitline, and can get several decent group DPS buffs as a healing traitline.

    Maybe a better approach would be to make the yellow-line tactics not quite so lackluster for non-tanks and then expect off-tanks to go yellow, at least for that fight. Now that To Arms has a baseline effect with a bonus based on your traitline, it's not completely terrible to be in yellow-line for a fight where another tank is needed. It's unlikely you'd need to be in yellow for the entire run, so you could still speed up the DPS on the trash or bosses not requiring extra tanks. I also somewhat question whether "off-tanking" will continue to mean the same thing / be valuable with only force taunts.

  15. #15
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    IMO, the real problem with survivability is that we don't take enough damage to make our healing worthwhile. Whether that means that enemies should deal more or that mitigation caps should be lowered, I don't know. Either way, though, there's balancing that needs to be done on an across-the-board basis. I'd be hesitant to spend too much time thinking about reworks to individual skills until after the broader-scoped stuff is done -- barring certain skills that are clearly outliers in some way or another.

    Anyway, I feel like the healing from Noble Mark is actually a reasonable amount. More than we need right now, maybe, but that's a different problem. How are people feeling about the damage component, though? Specifically, it's meant to provide a steady (if small) stream of threat on a single target... yet, in almost all cases, that's not really necessary. After all, we've got Threatening Shout and Grave Wound to build up a threat lead with. Even assuming a circumstance where those two skills have to be used on targets other than the guy you've marked, is Noble Mark's damage providing enough threat to be noticeable?
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    The way Routing Cry works, it still has AoE threat attached, since damage = threat. The problem is that the a general lack of AoE damage skills means the Captain has difficulties generating AoE threat.

    Your best bet for area threat is picking up Gallant Display, as mentioned above, and firing both cries whenever they're available. And keeping a planted a banner next to you for extra damage.
    Ack! I am stuck in the old ways of cappy.

    Thanks, this will help. I am a healing cappy at heart and I have been hitting my threat then going for my brother skills, then my battle hardened skills (to proc a defeat response). I had dipped into the read line to try to increase to proc chance. That isn't bad, but you are right, their are better choices for managing aggro, so I will have respec to work that into my skill rotation.

    If I can piggy-back on that idea and ask, has anyone done comparisons to see how much a difference it makes using Rally Cry, or Routing Cry with a defeat response and without? I'm am stuck in old cappy ways here too and only use it when one is up. Maybe I need to change that behavior as well.

    Claira
    Last edited by burningflame; Jan 11 2014 at 02:25 PM.
    Cappy Clairawen, 100 on Landroval
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  17. #17

    Regarding Noble Mark damage (with Legacy)

    I searched but couldn't find if this is a known issue, but I just noticed that on my emblem with +noble mark damage (something like 35% more), it does less damage than an emblem without the legacy. The mouse over shows less damage for the legacy version, and testing on a dummy confirms that the damage is less than without the legacy.
    I guess I'll bug it either way.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by NogodZ View Post
    I searched but couldn't find if this is a known issue, but I just noticed that on my emblem with +noble mark damage (something like 35% more), it does less damage than an emblem without the legacy. The mouse over shows less damage for the legacy version, and testing on a dummy confirms that the damage is less than without the legacy.
    I guess I'll bug it either way.
    I dont have that issue, so I wonder if other legacies and bonuses are the cause here since Noble Mark can be affected by many sources, including:
    Noble Mark damage legacy (up to 50%)
    Light damage legacy (up to +25%)
    Light damage LI title (+5%)
    Tactical Mastery
    Light Damage traits (up to 6% from Deafening Shouts)
    Tactical Damage traits (up to 6% from Skilled Hands, up to +4% from Dignified Spectacle)

    Could it be a combination of these legacies and bonuses that make your non-noble-mark-Emblem cause your noble mark to do more damage than an emblem with Noble Mark Damage but few/none of the other bonuses?
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Jan 13 2014 at 07:42 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    Then what's the problem with removing it. If you could get an even BETTER self-heal from blue, people should be doing it right now.
    and who are you to tell anyone how to play this class?

    why would anyone in their right mind give up points from red to get the blue mark. the points in red are a SUBSTANTIAL amount of threat and a not-insignificant amount of damage added to a rather low damage line.

    noble mark is fine as it is. if YOU don't like it, don't use it. ever.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Teyaha View Post
    and who are you to tell anyone how to play this class?

    why would anyone in their right mind give up points from red to get the blue mark. the points in red are a SUBSTANTIAL amount of threat and a not-insignificant amount of damage added to a rather low damage line.

    noble mark is fine as it is. if YOU don't like it, don't use it. ever.
    I'm not telling anyone how to play the class. I'm telling YOU that your line of logic didn't make much sense.

    But that's kind of moot, I've gotten my answer -- the mark DoT probably mimics fairly well the ToT process from before HD, and that's fair enough.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bezmer View Post
    Then what's the problem with removing it. If you could get an even BETTER self-heal from blue, people should be doing it right now.
    That depends. If you go full tank, you won't get that self heal.
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