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  1. #1

    LOTRO PvMP summary

    I quote this from Eldar pvp forums, cause i think more ppl should see it. Its alot of text, but its worth reading it.
    Thank you for writing this m8.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwyndor View Post
    A RANT TO END ALL RANTS!!!

    I'm so very sorry people. But enough is enough! The time has come to just go completely and utterly MAD, and let it all out. I really, really REALLY do not give a damn anymore . . . . !!!!!

    Here comes a massive tirade, aimed mostly at turbine. If you don't like walls of text, just move along.



    Who cares anymore? Turbine certainly don’t. And what makes you think I can say anything that hasn’t been said a thousand times before? Besides, the troll brigade will show up in very short order and chirp-chirp away that I’m just a creep QQer. No thanks mate.

    Well, I changed my mind. Here follows the last rant, the rant of all rants. It’s quite a bad tempered one, so it won’t be pretty. The opinions are my own. Some of you will no doubt strongly disagree. A few may even be offended. That is not my intent. If you want a slanging match because of it, carry on. Troll away by all means. I’m past caring.

    **

    The Ettenmoors is just a sorry, sorry mess at the moment. Turbine have totally mishandled this update. I thought it couldn’t possibly be worse than RoR. But now PvP is wrecked. The game as a whole is on its last legs. And all our concerns are met with silence, and there are SO many. They litter thread after thread after thread. No one at turbine has shown even the slightest sign of doing anything about it, or even giving a damn. When you consider the almost TOTAL lack of engaging, productive end game content at the moment, all that is really left to do is the Moors. But it is in chaos. However… one update to the Moors would make it once again a perfectly viable end-game theatre. I am quite positive that it COULD very easily be restored to functional order once again - if turbine wanted to make the effort.

    I’ll put myself in their shoes for just a moment. If I was on their staff I would take my list of these ‘things to do’ to the next dev meeting, based on my observations on PvP, and cause a proper scene. I would really go to town! For God’s sake, this stuff isn’t rocket science! There are simple things YOU, TURBINE, could do to fix this! And I’m not even talking about all the bugs, or exploiting/macroing/clubbing and problems of this sort, nor the terrible laaaaag, or any of the other numerous game mechanics and policies, or even taking into account suggestions of new maps or new classes -- or any of the myriad other issues.

    Right at this moment I’m just talking about the BASIC STUFF. COMBAT 1.01! But also, as you will see, the trouble far exceeds just combat and the Ettenmoors. It runs throughout every aspect of the game, and deep into its very foundations - which I believe are starting to crack. Ultimately, I wish Lotro could revisit an earlier game model, say the Shadows of Angar or Moria. Of course, if that model would yield turbine less profit than the current one, they would never consider it. That’s the sad reality of our world today, where for the large corporation profit is god, and people are nothing.

    But let’s just say they did want to roll things back, or just make a few radical changes. Some may sound completely crazy to you, others totally impractical. But do not desperate problems call for desperate solutions? And could it be any worse than it is right now? With work Ettenmoors COULD be repaired and re-conditioned, and go a long way to making PvP a far better experience for everyone! I’m talking about fights that are open, fair, and above all else FUN! That’s my key word here, FUN. Where has the fun gone?

    Of course everybody has their own idea of what ‘fun’ is. I understand that many players may well have a completely different viewpoint in how they define the word ‘fun’, and in how they approach the game and play it for their personal entertainment. Just look at the petty lamers, ez-moders, and exploiters that we see. They, I assume, are just doing it to have fun, not really caring about much else. Maybe these terms are a little harsh. Maybe a lot of players are just young. And that isn’t their fault. Young means inexperienced. Young means attitude: young, brash, and cocky as hell. We were all young, right? It would be wrong to judge them, and I’ve been guilty of doing so in the past. For that I apologise.

    So if there really is a proliferation of young players right now, then they probably understand, identify with, and quite probably WANT a different type of game to me, and to some of you. They want to kick the #### out of everything the moment they aggro it. They want fast thrills and instant success. Quite possibly what has happened is that Turbine have been listening to these young voices, and making provision for them. Who knows? I’m just speculating.

    We were all young once, even this grumpy sod, who first picked up a video game joystick in the 70’s. But these days my expectations are a lot higher. The simple games of youth don't cut it anymore, do they? And now Lotro is a simple game… ESO beckons and I wish I didn’t feel compelled to just move on. I love middle-earth and I love(d) Lotro. The game doesn’t deliver anything near what it used to in the shape of challenging, fun, and quality end-game content. But Lotro did start out great. It was superb! Lotro hit its peak with Moria. Remember the 21st Hall back in the day? It was packed. Hardly elbow room to move some nights. So many people, so busy busy busy with so many interesting end game things to do. Three raids we had (inc turtle), and eight 6-man instances (inc Forgotten treasury and HoC). Turbine, you set the bar VERY high in quality and quantity with that Exp. But you’ve continued to fall short of it, FAR short of it, year after year ever since. Do you really think we can now be in any way satisfied rebuilding ruined towns, or clicking on ladders in Big Battles??

    I personally am not. People are bored, turbine! Your game is in free-fall. I want my Lotro back, where I could fight in difficult yet exciting instances and raids, and achieve hard-earned rewards based on actual skill, actual endeavour, and actual EFFORT, like it used to be! And not just the content, I want combat to be COMBAT again! I do not want everything handed to me on a plate. I don't want to auto-attack my way to victory. I DO NOT WANT TO BE OP. I have no interest in fast thrills and instant success. And I do not want to run sambrog - 7 year old content - 1,000 times just for a poxy necklace. Yes I hear what you’re saying. How can turbine possibly design a game that meets all ends, satisfies every taste? I know. But I still have a right to stand firm in my corner, and argue for what I believe in, fighting for the game that I love. I can do no more…

    All this frustration translates very much into PvP as well, which is the only alternative destination for the end-game player if turbine will no longer deliver instances and raids. But Ettens is in disarray due to turbine's utter negligence! Time to sort it out, once and for all! I want to see an end to the ez-mode camping and farming and zerging night after night after night. It is endless and boring and useless. But such is our game now, which is dismantling itself before our very eyes. I want a PVP zone where freeps can fight on a par, toe-to-toe, with creeps, and creeps can fight on a par, toe-to-toe, with freeps. In Ettens I want to see creeps and freeps share a comparable level of DPS potential, CC effects, and healing output, where neither one can outshine the other with just raw numbers, but can only do so with skill and with strategy, rather than getting a free-ride because their class is so absurdly OP. I’m not calling for classes to mirror each other. I’m not even asking for parity across the board. Just a scaling down of the ‘trinity’ of DPS/CC/Heals that have on freepside rocketed to ridiculous levels. To counter it turbine simply sky-rocketed creep morale and skill cooldowns to equally ridiculous levels. This is why we have this mess.

    Sadly, turbine seem no longer interested in giving us a game that promotes evenness, or fairness, or challenge worthy of our skill. Of course, it’s more about the Store now, and $$$. And gameplay itself has suffered, and combat is now a total farce. And unfortunately it has attracted too many types whose sole aim is to stamp on the credibility and principles of this game and everyone playing it, to stand above other people and exert their OP dominance, and exploit it at every turn, either because they are young and thus know no better, or because their hefty ego outweighs their integrity.

    The following is what Combat in Lotro has become now. Lotro in HD in a nutshell:

    -Huge DPS numbers.
    -CC overkill.
    -Massive heals.
    -Almost immortal skills on some classes.
    -Absurdly short cooldowns.
    -Bubbles everywhere.

    Seriously! Somewhere along the line Lotro ran off the tracks. Now it’s completely out of control, and careering very close to the edge of a cliff. I could go on about the rest of Lotro, but this is about PvP. Ettenmoors needs a big fat reset button. THE FOLLOWING IS HOW I WOULD DO IT...


    ***


    Warning** (If you WANT to be OP, or worse, think you DESERVE to be OP, or you’re just young and being OP is your preferred style of play, or you actually NEED to be OP because you SUCK - like some people we know of here - you should look away now, as you will certainly hate this list and it will make you cry.)


    FREEP COMBAT IN THE MOORS, AND THE 'TRINITY'

    (The traditional trinity includes tanking, but as there's no tanking in the moors I've replaced it with CC)

    MASSIVE DPS! I myself could hit 13k on my BA before U12.1. Even now, with freeps having Aud, I can still hit 6k to 8k sometimes. That constitutes virtually 50% of a freep’s morale in one hit. One! Freeps can hit for a similar percentage of creep morale with 20k+ hits. I’ve heard of one 30k hit. It’s nonsense turbine. DPS on both sides needs a large scale reduction! Firstly, I would begin by vastly decreasing the magnitude of criticals to a sensible and practical level. Perhaps even place a CAP on crits (moors only). 5k would be reasonable. Of course alongside that I'm suggesting that freep and creep morale pools be brought back down to what they were in RoR.

    Secondly DoTs. Turbine you need to gut out this entire system and rework it, particularly those of Wardens. I’ve seen Warden bleeds hitting regularly for 3k and 4k. I’ve seen one hit for even 8k. A DoT - next to a BA DoT for example that ticks for 150-250! After rescaling the DoTs to SANE levels turbine, please then ensure that they are going correctly through mitigation checks, which they are not right now


    CAPS! Put a cap on crits, put a cap on heals, put a cap on CC. Cap it all! Caps should not and must not be overlooked. But they have been. It has been totally forgotten why we had caps IN THE FIRST PLACE: to prevent a total mess. If you take away the caps this is what happens! Reasonable caps NEED to be reintroduced for freeps and creeps alike. Everything is now so out of proportion it’s ridiculous, and cannot possibly be sustained. And let’s not stop with capping damage or healing effects… Bring back the Stats cap as well! Or maybe just apply the stats cap when freeps enter the moors. Caps work, you see? End this travesty! Keep everything within a sensible and established CAP, and we will never hear of QQ again! Never did turbine make a worse mistake when they removed the stat cap back in RoI.


    CROWD CONTROL! Reduce the effects of CC durations and cooldowns, on both sides. Constant, incessant, everlasting, unremoveable CC effects are just APPALLING right now. I’m not suggesting CC is removed of course, as it’s a fundamental and important gameplay component. But what we see right now is CC on bloody steroids, and it high time it got its #### kicked! Remember Dunland, I mean, STUNland? Not fun was it. Utter ####, in fact! In PvP it’s ten times worse - for the creeps anyway. All this mega-CC does is STOP people playing. It’s like, you’re trying to get from A to B, driving down this road to reach your destination, but you’re stopped dead every 20 yards by a set of goddamn traffic lights. How is this productive? How is being stunned EVERY 3 SECONDS WITHOUT IMMUNITY TO COUNTER IT, fun?! There is no FUN in being stunned once, recovering, then being stunned immediately again… and so on and so forth, so that for 90% of the fight you are not fighting at all but standing there dazed, or knocked down, or not being able to move (ie, NOT be able to FIGHT). Let everybody fight turbine!

    We are here to have FUN, which is to FIGHT, and CC is a killer of FUN, as it removes the basic concept of er, FIGHTING! Enough! CC needs a massive MASSIVE nerf across the board! Put it back to a bare minimum in the Moors! At the very least I suggest that after receiving the first daze/mez/stun/root, implement a 30 second immunity against being dazed/mezzed/stunned/rooted again. Applies obviously to both sides.


    HEALING! Freeps have healing skills that can hit 15k, restoring morale pools to 100% in 1 second. Just lol. Freeps can put out big heals and bubbles in a general Aoe without even being grouped! Just lol again. And yes a WL can heal 25k+, but that’s barely 50% of a creep’s morale pool. But both of these need to be trimmed down to fall in line with new a morale scheme. Firstly, I submit outgoing heals should be capped at 5k, keeping in mind that both freeps and creeps should revert to having comparable morale pools of around 12k at the bottom end, and say 20k at the top. Secondly, assert an aggressive reduction on all freep healing skills, not just in the exaggerated numbers but in cooldowns also. No more 2 or 3 freeps out-healing the onslaught of an ENTIRE creep raid. No more god-like captains! No more absurd bubbles and fairy lights that freep raids run round with. Leave that #### to lesser MMOs, or sci-fi games. There are no deflector-shields in Prof. Tolkien’s works. They have no place in middle-earth. I mean, what the hell is Frodo wasting his time for? Just give the ring to a bloody cappy and have him or her take it to Mordor solo. FFS.

    I am not anti-minstrel or anti-healer. I loved my mini. I say give me back my old minstrel turbine! I hate what Orion began in RoI with redesigning that class. Hate it, hate it, HATE IT! I was very proud of my achievement in healing all of the old raid content on level. The best though was OD hard mode. My kin was one of only 5 that achieved that at level 65. I tanked it all and healed it all. Those were epic fights! Healing Durin’s Bane HM was a very tough proposition, but I did it, and I sweated for it, with pure good old fashioned EFFORT, and INTELLIGENCE, and TIMING of skills. No 100% heals, no vast AoEs or codas or soddin bubbles and ####! Leave it out turbine! The challenge of healing is yet another element of Lotro that has been DUMBED DOWN to oblivion. And it stinks!

    Another problem with bubbles: they are a further strain on an already bloated mountain of graphics effects, which is exacerbated by LMs and RKs. All this kills the action dead with lag. So lose the bloody fairy lights! And put healing back to what it was: a noble art, that required passion, dedication, and craft. Not a bloody faceroll! Also put all incoming and outgoing healing percentages and effects back to what they were in SoA.



    OTHER POINTS

    --Repair all freep mitigation tables, and ensure that every instance of incoming creep damage is checked against those tables.

    --Give freeps PvP-specific gear, armour/jewelry/weps, that are earned along and throughout the PvP ranking curve, and maybe from deeds as well for the really epic stuff. This to be used only in PvP. Outside, open-world PvE gear should be barred from use in the moors. And why not?

    --Power pools. They are so horribly broken due to the changes made to stats and how they functioned. Power used to be a game mechanic, where players could whittle away an enemy’s reserves, using its restrictions against them. One more interesting strategy removed from the toolkit. It is now very rare that a power pool falls to 0. Awesome short-sightedness on turbine’s part, again...

    --No more Auto-Flips. What a bloody joke they are.

    --Pets, on either side, should not any longer be summoned in combat (except I guess for the LM skill Sic ‘Em… Nuke ‘Em, Zerg ‘Em, or whatever.)

    --Bring back the lock-out timer. No more flipping!

    --Disallow logging out in combat. Stop the cheaters!

    --No more cheap ‘get-out clauses’. Bar these skills from use in the Moors! So no more minis playing dead (yeh, it may work against dumb npcs, but it’s not logical against human players), no more cappy last stand, no more HiPS (burgs and wargs), and last but not least, no more sprinting/charging/make haste in combat! Oh wait, there’s that QQ again. All right then, give reavers a 30sec in-combat sprint to compensate. No? Do away with it all then. (including warg sprint in-combat, sorry doggies). So in summary… yes by all means keep a few panic buttons, but NO MORE cheap get out clauses. Get shot of ALL OF IT. Fight, or DIE. It’s that simple. Don’t like it? Go away then, back to pve land!

    --Bubbles. Bah! I can hear the freep QQ already. Okay then. If you must have them, then ONE bubble only, employed by only one class (cappy/minstrel, whatever), and to apply to one target at a time. Mitigates/absorb 90% (not 100%) of damage for a short duration, say 15 secs. Make it the same as the Warleader bubble. This way the NPC and one-shotter bugs will be, or at least SHOULD BE, eliminated! Yes, eliminated, problem solved! Because that is what is happening right now with cappies. Shield of the dunedain alongside audacity takes damage reduction over that 100%, and this is interpreted by your own friendly NPCS as healing the target: therefore you are added to their aggro list. NO MORE bubbles or similar effects absorbing ALL damage, the same for Shield wall. Bar these skills from use in the Moors! No more 100% ANYTHING. 100% of this effect or that has no place here – no place in reality, no place in the lore. Get rid of it!

    --Take a long hard look at the ON Buff turbine! It’s broken. It’s always been broken. Remove the +Ren/Inf buff it gives, and have it only grant +mitigation, and +outgoing dmg to the side that is outnumbered. And make it ‘intelligent’, so it constantly adjusts/updates itself in accordance with numbers of players on each side, whether its 3 v 7, or 30 v 50. This way a relatively stable and balanced fight can always be achieved regardless of how many players are fighting. No more farm and zerg! There will be cheaters ofc. Unfortunately Lotro is now infested by those of low (and sometimes no) integrity that will try to cheat, in this instance by probably parking freavers somewhere out of the way to fudge the numbers. So perhaps this buff would ignore players standing at Grams/GV, and count only those that are in combat, etc. (I dunno, I haven’t had time to think this one thru, but it’s something to consider. If nothing else it would sort out the zerging.)

    --NPCs. No NPC should ever again stun you or disarm you. I recently pulled all of HH on my reaver. Ofc I was disarmed to high hell and back, and just stood there like a lemon with all skills greyed out. I watched a full minute pass in which I had perhaps a total of ten seconds where I could actually fight. But of course I had my super-duper OP Wrath to save me! This is garbage on both counts. As pointed out earlier, overblown CC like this KILLS THE FIGHT, and that kills the fun, which in turn kills your game turbine. Leave these CC effects to actual players! NPCs should be nothing more than background components that are barely noticeable - except for elites that guard Grams/GV/Rez circles, and Keeps.

    --No more Keep buffs, no more DoF buffs, no more frackin’ OP buffs. EVER.

    --No more Audacity. What a waste of time. Remind me again what it’s for? Oh yeh, I’ll tell you what it’s for. It’s just a stopgap, a band-aid turbine threw on this open wound called pvp. If you cut dps and heals down to near modest levels, as it should be, you wouldn’t bloody need this lazy, ill-conceived rubbish.



    CREEPSIDE AND GENERAL STUFF

    --Cut Creep morale in half, put it back to where it was in RoR, and even lower than that, so that it is on a par with freeps (and in accordance with the new morale scheme for both sides I suggested, being between 12k to 20k).

    --Reduce magnitude of Creep critical damage numbers to the same cap as freeps.

    --Cap and reduce creep healing in the same fashion and by the same amount. Not like for like with freeps, skill for skill, etc, I don’t mean that. I’m not talking about mirroring the classes. I’m talking about capping the values. Cap it at the SAME ceiling. No more insane 5-digit numbers filling up the combat log.

    --Remove the ridiculous Creep cooldowns, restore them back to what they were before HD. What sort of game mechanism is it when I can on my BA just hit MT every 40 secs and avoid so much physical damage? Or on my reaver when I can run round with almost perma-wrath? Or on warg Sprint/Hips with almost complete impunity? These are no better than freep bubbles. In fact they are the same! It does not encourage or promote the notion of tactics, clever play, or guile to win your battles. It’s an ‘I win’ button, befitting only of tards. I’m not a tard turbine. I’m not a moron or a chimpanzee. I left freepside to get away from this s**t. I left freepside because it was boring and utterly insulting to run round in god-mode all the time. Turbine, you’ve pandered to too many whiners and moaners that don’t have it in them to WORK for their successes. No pain, no gain! You insult us and our intelligence by giving us these powers and abilities.

    --Introduce some better controls for class building, customization. Give creeps trait trees, for example. Give creeps gear. Something!

    ****


    There’s a million more issues. But this’ll do. It’s too much of a wall of text already…

    But so many problems solved! If you are shaking your head right now, it could be that you prefer a different brand of gaming than I do. Fair enough. By no means do I believe that my opinion is the only valid one. I’m just stating my opinion here. You either agree, or you do not. And I would say my beliefs here are impartial and without bias; in favour of neither freeps nor creeps, because I play BOTH (altho not freep in the moors anymore), and I want fair fights for both! And it’s quite possible I’ve upset or offended both sides. Sorry! But above all else here I’m trying to illustrate the root of where our many problems lie. I’ll repeat what I said before: turbine seem to want EVERYONE to have ridiculously powerful abilities, damaging skills, cc, and heals. They are no longer interested in giving us a game that promotes evenness, and fairness – or challenge. And if you say ‘killing a captain is a challenge,’ then I give up. You’ve totally missed the point. Bottom line: gameplay has suffered terribly, becoming a pale ghost of what it once was.

    Ettenmoors needs a big fat reset button like I said. Can’t you see how ultimately futile it is otherwise? Under this model, escalating from update to update, PvP will eventually self-destruct, like this:




    Hilarious, but ultimately pointless. Get a control turbine and end the madness! If something is not done soon it will get so overblown, so far out of proportion, you will never be able to reverse it. Dial it down and get back to basics. Or you will get hit in the pocket, and hard! ESO is coming, remember?

    So, flame away at these suggestions people. I don’t care. Neither should you care really, because it won’t matter. Nothing will be done by turbine anyway. They do not LISTEN! By all means put up counter arguments if you want. But you will never ever convince me that Lotro is in a better state than it once was, or combat is better now than it was in 2007, or even 2011. I heard a rumour a while back that turbine intend to release a major ettens update at some point, suggesting that the awful distortions that we see right now are only temporary, and that they will get round to sorting it out. Eventually. Yeh right, but we’ll see. But hurry turbine. ESO is coming in April. It’s a hot topic on occ every single day! People are so very tired and want to move on now for all the reasons I have given you. So hurry!! You have 4 months. The clock is ticking…
    Chieftain Mreza, Kokosovo mleko Chieftain (Rank 12 weaver)
    Brekka Crixus of Eldar, Potomci Numenora, Evernight (Ex Lazareva vojska)

    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
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    279
    and Turbine's response is.....




  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    894
    Dear players.

    We at Turbine hear you. We understand you love Tolkien, Lord Of The Rings, Middle Earth, and last but not least, the Moors. Your feedback is very welcome.

    It sounds like you would like another tree. Would you like that? Would you like another tree? How about if we put a frog under that tree? Would that would be nice?

    Keep coming with the feedback. We appreciate it.

    Your's truly,
    The Dev Team

  4. #4
    Great post, addresses all the of the main issues with pvp atm @ gwyndor

    I do think low rank creeps need some love, there is a HUGE difference in potency between ranks, of course, ranks should matter, but currently a r0 creep is like an equivalent of a lvl 60ish freep (or not even), the only difference being the morale pool, that is ridiculous. Low ranks should be able to fight back and not be a useless meatshield.
    If ranks matter less, PvP will be more inviting to new players, instead of knowing you can't do anything till at least several weeks later.

    At least one good thing of the new itemization: there is no real difference between pvp and pve gear, so maybe locking out pve gear might not even be needed (if you buff the low rank creeps).

    About the cc thing, I've been thinking a bit about it, and I think, if they get rid of audacity, and diminishing returns, it can work like this (in the moors):
    - cap all cc durations at 4s (including disarm and silence, but not slows)
    - Each kind of cc provides 10s immunity to that kind of cc after you get out of it (separated by commas):
    red dot stuff (stuns/knock-down/etc.), roots, dazes/fears, silences, disarms.
    - FM stuns should of course provide both the red dot and 60s immunity against FM stuns.
    - Each kind of temporary cc immunity also gives -50% Crowd Control Duration (also affects silence/disarm) (stacks multiplicatively)
    This should make cc more predictable (an issue for cc classes), yet make chain-locking for a long time completely impossible, even if you use multiple people on it.
    It also gives back some need for strategy: are you gonna chain for 8s, or after each cc wait till the 10s immunity expired so you can keep full durations.
    Idk what would be a good way to handle slows.

    I think capping crits on their own isn't a good idea,considering some skills are made up of multiple hits, capping stats (especially crit magnitude) and proper balancing of skill damage should cause this not to be needed.

    Anyway, it's just wishful thinking, none of it has a slight chance to become reality.
    ~Dwarrowdelf (Bomb Squad)~
    Freeps: Vulcwen (R8 LM), Vulciel (lvl 100 RK), and some lower level alts.. Creep: Shadowweb (R6 spider)
    My ideas on how LM should be: [url=https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthread.php?543323-LM-revamp-reconsidered]LM Revamp reconsidered[/url]

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
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    Washington DC
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    Great post and certainly captures many of the issues we're seeing today. I would just add a ranking system revamp b/c one that takes dedicated players 5+ yrs to cap begs for development.

    All the more reason to take a page from the RP community and organize/plan PVP events on your server. To a certain extent all servers have done in the past but it doesn't hurt to take a Bull by the horns approach to your PVP. This can include typical 1v1s but what I have in mind is much more, use your imagination. Organize set place fights, meeting engagements, duals, sieges, etc. Have a common vent channel for leaders, communicate ground rules, etc. You can go on about how PVP doesn't have any rules, if it's red it's dead, etc, but pretty soon even "that" person will step away from the game or have a come to Jesus moment.

    Would it really upset the server to have a few hours in 1 or more days in the week set aside for something like this?

    Why wait for turbine to fix PVP, you can be complacent with the status quo, vent on forum, quit, or do something active about it.

    My personal view is that most of us are too damn lazy to try anything different or we just want our points at the end of the day.
    Landy, Brandy, & Riddermark [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?412044-Riddermarks-cast-of-characters&highlight="]Riddermark's finest[/URL] and [URL="http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?416597-Riddermark-Satire&highlight="]Riddermark satire [/URL]

  6. #6
    We CAN do that, but there is always 5...6...7 ppl that doesnt agree with it. And they dont care if they "ruin it", no one can blame them, its true that there are no rules except the "Be fair, IF YOU WANT TO".
    Its not ONLY turbines fault, its the kind of ppl that plays lotro (some of them). But they wouldnt be able to "poop" wherever they want if turbine made it clear about all those things Gwyndor wrote up there.

    So, yes. I agree with you, but im afraid its not possible. We cant even make one side leave outposts 2-2, even tho its the op side and raided at that moment.
    (Not blaming anyone who is doing that, just i wouldnt do it...)
    Chieftain Mreza, Kokosovo mleko Chieftain (Rank 12 weaver)
    Brekka Crixus of Eldar, Potomci Numenora, Evernight (Ex Lazareva vojska)

    Unless stated otherwise, all content in this post is My Personal Opinion.

  7. #7
    Is he mad or something?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulek View Post
    Is he mad or something?
    Says the burg on Eldar who has been reported multiple times for macro exploiting.

  9. #9
    Join Date
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    I have to say that one of the main reasons I enjoy playing my wrd in the moors is because it allows me to dot and kill all those utterly lame wargs that stun, hips and sprint people to death all the time... And while on creep I've noticed that burgs are much the same. I wouldn't be sad to see bleeds reduced in potency somewhat if laming people to death coupled with a get out of jail free card is no longer possible.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    I have to say that one of the main reasons I enjoy playing my wrd in the moors is because it allows me to dot and kill all those utterly lame wargs that stun, hips and sprint people to death all the time...
    Yeah I'm totally sure that that's the reason.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillGore81 View Post
    Yeah I'm totally sure that that's the reason.
    I wish people would stop accusing anyone who plays an OP class (though why anyone worries about one or two wardens when faced with all those 2-3-shotting/flopping minis is beyond me) of only being interested in the class in order to be able to faceroll everything. Considering I don't really play any other class except warden, and considering I haven't been to the moors (or online generally, b/c of rng loot) at all since ~june except for during the last week (trial VIP) because I got bored with being forced to join raids or get zerged by craids/lamed to death by wargpacks, shouldn't I have a right to express my opinion without immediately being called an ezmoder? I'm sorry if you find it unlikely that I actively dislike players who roll classes in order to be able to stun+kill then hips/sprint if $target isn't dead, but it is nevertheless true.

    Back on topic, I quite like the general direction the OP wants to take pvp, it would be a vast improvement to pvp (as well as, hopefully, stopping all of the hate) if a substantial number of suggestions were taken up seriously..
    Last edited by rannion; Jan 10 2014 at 08:18 AM.

  12. #12
    I uninstalled again.
    While there is quite a bit of good in the PvP here it isn't enough.

    The clue that it was time to go was when I was looking through my combat log and saw the 15K epic conclusion followed by two 5K epic conclusion 'ticks'. That is more than 50% of my health in a battle where I was stunned most of the time. In most cases, I'm stunned/feared for the duration of the fight and before I can hit a potion and HIPS I take anywhere from 50-60K of damage. I don't blame the Rune Keeper. For my part a 5 second battle just isn't entertaining.

    I've been playing for years and the superiority of the ranged tactical nuker in every update has been an endless source of frustration.
    I don't blame the people who play those classes, after all, if you can kite you can basically gray bar all of your melee opponents.

    If you take damage as a tactical nuker you're doing it wrong.

    Here is how bad it is: If I'm a fool I can take the time to place 5 Flayer bleeds on a Lore Master. If you combine the damage of all 5 bleeds they don't equal the damage output of a single Lore Master bleed that can be delivered at range without the Lore Master ever seeing the target. Click on target assist, fire into the zergball and profit. I may have 2X his health but he does 5X my damage output - at range.

    Another hysterical design snafu is the inability of melee classes to put down power drains that make a difference. We used to be able to influence the outcome of a battle by using power debuffs. I don't know why power is the holy and untouchable component of warfare - I guess killing someone in 5 seconds is OK but draining their power over 1 minute is out of bounds? The only reasonable way to explain this - and every PVP update since launch - is that the ranged tactical nuker must always rule the Ettenmoors.

    I've a lifetime account.
    I'll be back when the range tactical nukers are put in their place.
    The latest skill tree are a huge step in the right direction.
    Take a couple of more huge steps that way and you'll be there.

    PRO TIP: If a class can nuke 25% or more off an opponent at range that class should have NO SELF HEALING.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by BrekkaSrbenda View Post
    I quote this from Eldar pvp forums, cause i think more ppl should see it. Its alot of text, but its worth reading it.
    Thank you for writing this m8.
    Unfortunately it wasn't a summary, it was a wish list/necessary list to make the Moors fun and playable.


    The Moors is currently, `broken, boring and full of cheats.`


    That's a summary
    I dont hug, I keep my distance, about 40m.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    shouldn't I have a right to express my opinion without immediately being called an ezmoder? I'm sorry if you find it unlikely that I actively dislike players who roll classes in order to be able to stun+kill then hips/sprint if $target isn't dead, but it is nevertheless true.
    Of course you have the right to dislike players who roll classes in order to be able to stun+kill then hips/sprint...just like other people have the right to express their displeasure with people who roll the most OP'd class ever so they can ezmode it.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    I have to say that one of the main reasons I enjoy playing my wrd in the moors is because it allows me to dot and kill all those utterly lame wargs that stun, hips and sprint people to death all the time... And while on creep I've noticed that burgs are much the same. I wouldn't be sad to see bleeds reduced in potency somewhat if laming people to death coupled with a get out of jail free card is no longer possible.
    So you're happy that a class that could only stay out of stealth for 5 seconds at a time before getting blown up can now only stay out of stealth for 2 seconds without getting blown up.

    Well, I'm sure that'll fix your stun and sprint concerns. I'm sure you'd play the class differently though. You'd man up and get facerolled over and over just like you're supposed to right?

  16. #16
    Downsides To Playing Melee
    1: In range of all ranged attacks and melee attacks.
    2: In range of AOEs and other effects (tar, etc.)
    3: A melee class is more likely to get focus fire as they're in range of every member of every raid they attack.
    4: It is much more difficult as a melee class to maintain range, position, and aim attacks.
    5: Melee classes cannot fight from the wall of a keep, from within one-shotters and so forth.
    6: Melee classes are effectively gray barred by kiting.
    7: Melee classes working as a group on a single target are perfect AEO bait.

    A melee class cannot click on a target assist and start shooting fireballs of death into zergballs without even seeing the target. A raid of ranged nukers needs only one target assist - click, BOOM! and the target is dead, often times the ranged nukers don't even need to move. Do that with a raid of melee classes and they'd all have to move in on the target through tar, AEOs, insanity - all the while piling themselves up into a nice little AEO target.

    There are NO downsides to playing a ranged tactical nuker class.

    Ranged classes take no skill to aim.
    Ranged classes take full advantage of brainless target forwarding.
    Ranged classes can spread out to avoid AEOs.
    Ranged classes can kite/gray bar opponents.
    Ranged classes can fight from keeps/one-shotters/back doors.

    ^ This is the fundamental imbalance in the game right now.

    The way it is supposed to work is that if you have the advantage of ranged nuking you are supposed to be very squishy (See D&D); however, instead of allowing this the game supports a whole series of slows/stuns/roots/dazes/heals/bubbles/sprints that allows a ranged class to be just as effective in melee combat as they are at range - which is broken - because at range the melee class has NOTHING.

    So it is incomprehensible to me that a ranged class can pass out better bleeds, have better crowd control, have better healing than my melee class AND still pass out the long range nukes.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stepbrother View Post
    So you're happy that a class that could only stay out of stealth for 5 seconds at a time before getting blown up can now only stay out of stealth for 2 seconds without getting blown up.

    Well, I'm sure that'll fix your stun and sprint concerns. I'm sure you'd play the class differently though. You'd man up and get facerolled over and over just like you're supposed to right?
    Please read the entirety of the OP before demanding I come up with a balanced proposal for creep/freep classes. I have no interest at all in these discussions with wargs and burgs who feel that "hide in plain sight" is a skill that should be usable at all during fights, as though smells and hearing are irrelevant to locating others. That said, why not give wargs slightly higher in-combat speed (say, +10%), or introduce a mechanic that makes turning more sluggish (that can be affected by wounds?), or that adds a temporary miss chance if you turn too fast/too quickly.. Or add a rule that hips can only happen while out of LoS. So many things that could make fights more interesting other than pounce, run, repeat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ugmo
    Of course you have the right to dislike players who roll classes in order to be able to stun+kill then hips/sprint...just like other people have the right to express their displeasure with people who roll the most OP'd class ever so they can ezmode it.
    I doubt it means anything to you, but I rolled a warden shortly after RoI was released. Don't let that get in the way of your attempt at character assassination though, brave forum warrior.
    Last edited by rannion; Jan 10 2014 at 09:54 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuddlepaws View Post
    I uninstalled again.



    I can understand your frustration. If certain "fixes" don't get done with 12.2 then I think I may be done with the 'moors until after update 13. The game has, more so than ever, pushed both side into running in large groups. On a melee (squishy warg) you will get blown up by AOE in short order. Finding even numbered fights on most servers is next to impossible. One side or the other has the numbers almost all the time. If your not running in groups you're getting roflstomped by burg/warg packs that pick off the "fat kid".

    IMO, most of the non-exploit issues are a result of the amount of DPS that most classes can dish out when compared to the morale pools of their opponent. If I wanted to play a game where 1 second can make or break a fight I'd of stuck to GW2.
    "...FF is still the best server period, its like the Texas of Lotro"-Bace

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post


    I can understand your frustration. If certain "fixes" don't get done with 12.2 then I think I may be done with the 'moors until after update 13. The game has, more so than ever, pushed both side into running in large groups. On a melee (squishy warg) you will get blown up by AOE in short order. Finding even numbered fights on most servers is next to impossible. One side or the other has the numbers almost all the time. If your not running in groups you're getting roflstomped by burg/warg packs that pick off the "fat kid".

    IMO, most of the non-exploit issues are a result of the amount of DPS that most classes can dish out when compared to the morale pools of their opponent. If I wanted to play a game where 1 second can make or break a fight I'd of stuck to GW2.
    It used to be in a fight against a minstrel I'd die but at least those battles had the potential for some line of sight action (dodge around a tree) or maybe I could put a power bleed on the minstrel and live long enough to see him use a power pot but as it is now I can sprint from a minstrel when I hit half health and be dead before I'm 20 meters out.

    I know you like to run solo so I'm sure the warg packs aren't much fun.

    We've got some really good people on Firefoot that I'm going to miss - any time you need a Fuddlepaws fix just find an old used toupee at a garage sale, shoot it with a shotgun and the remaining pile of smoking hair will remind you of the fail warg. You can pretend that you just got a devastating critical.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    Please read the entirety of the OP before demanding I come up with a balanced proposal for creep/freep classes. I have no interest at all in these discussions with wargs and burgs who feel that "hide in plain sight" is a skill that should be usable at all during fights, as though smells and hearing are irrelevant to locating others.
    As a warg I used to spend a great deal of time hunting burglars even though, for most of my career, they've been crazy powerful.
    I've found the HIPs to be an interesting mechanic to fight against and it is easy to counter with a bit of coordination.
    Against burglars we would simply have one warg wait, in stealth, out of combat for the burglar to HIPS. Track. Kill.

    There is a sick satisfaction in catching the elusive target.

    Now I can understand that HIPs is frustrating, the problem is that it is no more an escape skill than Last Stand, any and all healing, roots, stuns, one-shotters, bubbles or a variety of other options that people use to survive a fight or buy time to flee. The realism argument falls flat because it also entirely unrealistic that a large demonic dog would lose a fight against a guy whose weapon is a bagpipe - and yes, of course Hunters should have the ability to track wargs regardless of the build they select.

    HIPS is a game model for a ninja move where the opponent manages to lose you in the heat of battle.
    Like everything else in this game it has little basis in reality and it has counters.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Fuddlepaws View Post
    HIPS is a game model for a ninja move where the opponent manages to lose you in the heat of battle. Like everything else in this game it has little basis in reality and it has counters.
    Not if you get jumped by a Warg while playing CMP, or by a Burg while playing WL. I have simply never fought Wargs when solo on CMP because there is no point. Either I lose, or the Warg disappears. Either way it is a complete waste of my time.

    The advantage of stealth classes should be the ability to choose what targets to fight and what to avoid, plus getting that first stun/attack in before their target even knows they are there. Once the fight begins, it's ludicrous that they should be able to simply vanish (whether literally or as a metaphor). It encourages lame, cheap play.

    That said, of all the multifarious and egregious problems in the Moors right now, this one is pretty low down a long list.
    [CENTER]Tarmas Elf Champion R13 | Tarmeg Elf Guardian R6 | Tarmil 95 Elf Warden | Tarmun Elf Hunter R6 | Tarmot Elf Minstrel R6 | Tarmyr Elf Loremaster R6
    Strawn Reaver R6 | Strawz Warg R6 | Strawk Blackarrow R6 | Strawx Warleader R6 | Strawb Defiler R6 | Strawt Weaver R6[/CENTER]

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by SongSinger View Post
    Says the burg on Eldar who has been reported multiple times for macro exploiting.
    Says the noob who dont know burg class and got no evidence.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar View Post
    Not if you get jumped by a Warg while playing CMP, or by a Burg while playing WL. I have simply never fought Wargs when solo on CMP because there is no point. Either I lose, or the Warg disappears. Either way it is a complete waste of my time.
    It is okay that you feel that way.
    I just respectfully disagree.

    That said, I will use your comments as an opportunity to make a couple of points.

    1: IMHO, way too many people in this game seem to think that each battle has to result in one side or the other getting points. If someone doesn't die then the entire encounter was a waste of time and something is clearly broken. For my part I think difficult to kill opponents are kind of interesting - and there is a whole science to using HIPS and stealth skills that is fascinating to me. In my battles against burglars even when they've escaped I've learned something about how they use those skills and in every case I've been able to exact revenge.

    2: As for the complete waste of time, I can assure you that in many encounters you've had that is precisely the point. I've attacked groups I've had no chance against in order to distract them long enough for a kill to be completed somewhere else. In one case we had a group taking a keep and one of those nut jobs who does nothing but ride around and check on keeps all day came riding up to Tirith Rhaw to check on it - so I attacked and let him put DOTS on me while he chased me towards Tol Ascarnen. That bought us the 5 minutes we needed to flip the keep. I had no chance against him solo but I did waste his time.

    There is quite a bit more to an encounter than points.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuddlepaws View Post
    It is okay that you feel that way.
    I just respectfully disagree.

    That said, I will use your comments as an opportunity to make a couple of points.

    1: IMHO, way too many people in this game seem to think that each battle has to result in one side or the other getting points. If someone doesn't die then the entire encounter was a waste of time and something is clearly broken. For my part I think difficult to kill opponents are kind of interesting - and there is a whole science to using HIPS and stealth skills that is fascinating to me. In my battles against burglars even when they've escaped I've learned something about how they use those skills and in every case I've been able to exact revenge.
    The problem is one of symmetry; unless they are attacking in order to create a distraction, wargs (and burgs) certainly expect to either get a kill, or -- especially now that hunters can no longer track for stealthed wargs -- get away (generally while waiting for their little pals to show up), unless they engage a decently-played bleed-based class.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by rannion View Post
    The problem is one of symmetry; unless they are attacking in order to create a distraction, wargs (and burgs) certainly expect to either get a kill, or -- especially now that hunters can no longer track for stealthed wargs -- get away (generally while waiting for their little pals to show up), unless they engage a decently-played bleed-based class.
    My burg easily places a dot that does over 20k damage by pressing 1 button. Is that a "decently-played bleed-based class"? I love the idea of a warden thinking he's "decently-played" because he can 2 hit a warg then scratches his head in perplexity and furrows his brow over why wargs don't fight toe to toe against their "decently-played bleed-based class". You're hilarious.

 

 
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