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  1. #1

    Right-click Portrait, scroll to Raid, arrow over...

    And click disband.

    I've decided to make a rage-worthy post about the latest PvP grouping tendencies I've noticed on this server and the ill effect it's been having on PvP.

    Now, this server has not always been as lacking in good leaders on both sides as it has in the last couple of days, but now it honestly seems like there are only 2-3 good leaders who are not in SB, and even counting those who are in SB, there are maybe like 5-6 good PvP raid leaders left on this server. I'm not saying SB is more l33t than the rest of the kins, but that is simply a statement of fact as I see it (not many people outside SB lead raids frequently), and 1 of those non-SB good leaders rarely comes out to the moors as of late. Obviously, a lack of good leaders inevitably means there is a lack of quality group v group action.

    When there IS group v group action, it is usually one side (the side that has a good leader) completely facerolling the other, unless the side with the good leader happens to have far less than the side that does not. Again, do not take offense that I am not calling some of you good leaders. I am not a good leader. I do not lead raids. I have no desire to lead raids, esp. during Christmas break. I'm not intending this post to inspire any of you to lead more often, as I wouldn't even listen to myself if that were the case.

    This is a post intending to cause one thing: stop grouping up against ungrouped opposition. The problem as I see it right now lies in one thing: people who are friends, kin members, etc. want to group up because why not? We're friends, we like to PvP, we like to PvP together, we like killing things with our shiny swords. Okay, fair enough, but when this happens consistently, the side that does not have enough kin members or friends on it who want to group up together gets destroyed. (Again, I'm not calling out one specific kin. I see this happen with SB, FnD, House of the Rings, DOTH, anyone.)

    Okay, AND. Even when that other side DOES group up, once the group v group action dies down because a healer left, someone died in a PvP zone and had to find their safe place in a corner, etc.... DISBAND. Yeah, I believe in you. You can do it. Press that button that says disband if you have no group opposition anymore. I know it is hard. I know it is much more *fun* to roll ungrouped opposition. But that is the single reason that PvP, quite frankly, sucks on this server lately (yes, Spiderbyte, I am going to agree with you on this one). People don't know how to use the disband button at the right times.

    So the solution in my mind has two paths:

    1a) Stop grouping up, even when you want to, unless the other side grouped up first, and you NEED a group to push them back from whatever. Let the other side do it first. Then by all means, group up to fight them.

    1b) Use the disband button. Just because you disband doesn't mean you don't have to stop fighting around each other! Split up into small groups, It's far easier for ungrouped freeps/creeps to kill 2-3 small groups, than it is to kill one raid of 8 who have dedicated healers watching out for everyone and a dedicated raid assist to systematically zerg creeps one at a time. And let's be honest, the action just IS better when both sides are getting kills. That's like, the definition of good PvP, ya know. Or at least that's always been my opinion, maybe some of you still can't bear the idea of dying in a PvP zone yet.

    2) Cooperate. I am by no means an exception to the drama on this server, and if anything I cause a lot of it, because I'm fu----- amazing at this game and people don't like that. Yeah, I'm awesome. But I digress. By cooperate I mean, don't be afraid to group with noobs, if everyone working together can get the job done. Don't be afraid to work with your OMGMORTALENEMY like that terrible Swifteagle who always grams camps and then flips to the other side to help push out. How dare he do that? I'm not gonna group with that guy, he was just killing me 2 seconds ago. Clearly I should not heal him, and allow the grams camp to continue. Makes sense. Yeah, cooperation needs to be bumped up like 20 notches.


    3) Just kidding, there wasn't a third point. BOOM. I totally got you there, now you're just utterly confused by this completely terrible joke in the midst of serious talk.


    So yeah, that's my rant. Honestly, I'm interested in what some of you think about this. I'm sure many of you disagree, but I'd like to hear reasons as to why you SHOULD group up. I'm sure there are many things that I'm overlooking, but I'd like for people to just think about this if they even ever read this.

  2. #2
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    I agree with you for the most part. It just baffles me when there is about 15 ish freeps that are facerolling some ungrouped creeps at a said location. Then someone on creepside groups them all up and fights the freeps away from said location back to a keep they own. They push out in gaggle formation again and get rolled once or twice more and instead of grouping they all leave the moors except for like 4-5 that come back out to fight now much larger creep group. Creep group fights them in a keep runs them out and then proceeds to flip the blue map/delving hoping more freeps will come to group up. No one comes out to help them, freeps leave the map to creeps to pve and such until an hour or so later then they return to what they were previously doing. I've personally seen it happen where folks come out and just run around in a big cluster then leave when the competition gets a little hard only to return when it has died back down. I understand getting tired of zerged or something of the sort and not being fun. I have been on this end many times but some folks don't have that excuse when they don't stick around for the group action. I know sometimes the grouped creeps of 10-12 fighting turns into 18 or so when out of no where 9 wargs come running in to fights. It happens just as much as a freep groups that would have 10-12 and a bunch of burgs, "soloers", or small kin groups fall in around them later. There is nothing that whoever is leading those groups can do to stop it. Personally I think a lot of folks need to get over themselves and group up and have some fun. Some of the best fun I've had in the moors was just facing down a large adversary and doing good battle with them even if we ended up loosing, I just honestly enjoy the challenge. A little of the fun can be taken away by folks who think it's not worth playing if you aren't skull dragging the opposing forces in a counter clockwise motion from HH to Ost but they can get over themselves also.

    Yesterday there was up to 16 freeps plus that boxer fourshot and co. I formed a small group(6 is a group) and fought a little bit until they all gathered back up then added two more fought them with 8 then back in the keep they went. I then added up to 12 and entered the keep(a few times vic and crew, if they were even grouped, were there and other times they were off doing something else) and fought inside the keep until the DOTH group left TR. I then went and flipped some blue stuff to see if they would get numbers and after about 20 minutes I left to go watch the title game. The second or third time we pushed DOTH was the only folks left there. If I would have knew that I wouldn't have even bothered against 6-8 of them there. They put up a decent fight in the flag room and killed a few of us up there until our numbers finally killed them by attrition. The extra 6 plus that was around(cause some of the DOTH folks werent there the whole time) left as soon as the fighting got hard.

    I think it should be more of a call out to all the "soloers" who just want to get some easy renown and then dip when there is any fight back. There are real solo players like Althorr, Grimphore(for the most part I see by himself), Wolfgash, etc. They do their solo thing either way it is going.

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Last night before a group was made on creepside, there were 16 ungrouped freeps hugging TR. Now, normally they would be hugging lug backdoor, unfortunately, that got flipped on them. With that said, when freeps refuse to leave their keeps while possessing so many numbers, creeps have no choice but to group up. Otherwise, the only action we're gonna see is having to push a keep full of freeps ungrouped in order to see action. If freeps absolutely refuse to leave their keep, how are creeps supposed to effectively combat them? The only reason action occurred last night is because the creeps grouped up.

    On the flipside, when I was leading a kin group later in the night and got wiped by about 14 creeps while only having 7 in our group, I advertised in GLFF hoping to get 3 or 4 more freeps as we were lacking in dps and also stated that we were facing twice the numbers. I didn't receive any tells. I then had kinmates advertise and still nothing. After waiting 10 minutes and receiving no more tells, I decided to go do something else. I had a theory, however, about why I didn't receive tells. I wanted to test my theory so I advertised in GLFF that it was a grams camp and I needed more freeps. I then went afk and came back about 10 minutes later. I received 7 tells. 0 tells were received when it was advertised we were facing twice the numbers. 7 tells were received when it was advertised that we were camping grams.

    So, conversely, instead of creeps not grouping up:

    1) Maybe freeps should quit hugging the backdoor of lug or another keep if it is unavailable when they have equal or greater number than the creeps.

    2) Maybe they should learn to group up.

    3) Since there aren't enough leaders as you stated, perhaps you could step up to the plate and lead the side lacking a leader (which will be freep side).
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  4. #4
    First, let me apologize, because this is going to be a long post, with lots of screenshots. But think of this post as a picture book, and I think we'll be okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennybo View Post
    It just baffles me when there is about 15 ish freeps that are facerolling some ungrouped creeps at a said location. Then someone on creepside groups them all up and fights the freeps away from said location back to a keep they own.... then instead of grouping they all leave the moors except for like 4-5 that come back out to fight now much larger creep group. Creep group fights them in a keep runs them out and then proceeds to flip the blue map/delving hoping more freeps will come to group up. No one comes out to help them, freeps leave the map to creeps to pve... I understand getting tired of zerged or something of the sort and not being fun. I have been on this end many times but some folks don't have that excuse when they don't stick around for the group action. I know sometimes the grouped creeps of 10-12 fighting turns into 18 or so when out of no where 9 wargs come running in to fights. It happens just as much as a freep groups that would have 10-12 and a bunch of burgs, "soloers", or small kin groups fall in around them later. There is nothing that whoever is leading those groups can do to stop it.
    I agree wholeheartedly. Too often, the side that is facerolling (in this case, the freeps yesterday) simply leaves the moors when they are wiped. Unfortunately, I do not have a SS of the original amount of freeps who were out before you made a group, Phil, but for those who care, here's proof that they indeed were hiding in their own keep and Phil had to chase them down in npcs to fight:



    Interestingly enough, those freeps who were then wiped proceeded to promptly leave the moors, except for about 5-6 who stayed, just as Phil said

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennybo View Post
    I then went and flipped some blue stuff to see if they would get numbers and after about 20 minutes I left to go watch the title game. The second or third time we pushed DOTH was the only folks left there. If I would have knew that I wouldn't have even bothered against 6-8 of them there. They put up a decent fight in the flag room and killed a few of us up there until our numbers finally killed them by attrition. The extra 6 plus that was around(cause some of the DOTH folks werent there the whole time) left as soon as the fighting got hard.
    Last sentence emphasized.

    Here we see only 5 freeps remaining after the others left, and Phil in OOC saying he's gonna let them gain more.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    Last night before a group was made on creepside, there were 16 ungrouped freeps hugging TR. Now, normally they would be hugging lug backdoor, unfortunately, that got flipped on them. With that said, when freeps refuse to leave their keeps while possessing so many numbers, creeps have no choice but to group up. Otherwise, the only action we're gonna see is having to push a keep full of freeps ungrouped in order to see action. If freeps absolutely refuse to leave their keep, how are creeps supposed to effectively combat them?
    Speaking to vic, I agree with this. I understand the "no grouping" rule shouldn't be a set in stone kind of thing. There will always be exceptions to any good PvP "guideline." This is a quite notable exception. Can't really fight people who hide by backdoors or in keep npcs when they clearly have superior numbers, without a group.

    However, I will say this. Phil took his group away when he found out there were only 5 freeps left to fight. Or he was watching the title game, or whatever, but whatever the case was, he took his group away. Your group stayed around to zerg.



    Here we see at least 8, not counting me and Spiderbyte (who I am assuming was solo). But there were a few I did not catch in this SS. I took another, and in this one we see 1-2 new names, who clearly have WL buffs and are in group too.



    That's 10 v 5. And these freeps are NOT ones who would give much, if any, resistance to a group with 3 WLs. Take a look at my other SS of the freeps killing me. I don't see one freep there who I would consider "high dps." I don't think that group would even come close to being a minor threat to 1 WL, with all the dps you had on creepside, lol.

    Again, it's cool when kin members and friends group up. That's fine. This game is multiplayer for a reason, groups are inevitable. Plus, you had good reason for starting that group, the freeps weren't going to fight until you pushed into the keep. But after the freeps started leaving the moors, why you didn't disband, I will never know. Heck, you invited me to the group, and I declined, not because I don't consider myself your friend, but because I didn't want to join a group that large fighting a freep group that small. Even if I went freep there is no way that group would've been able to take yours. It is too bad other creeps did not simply leave the group once it was apparent the actual PvP had stopped, and the facerolling had begun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    On the flipside, when I was leading a kin group later in the night and got wiped by about 14 creeps while only having 7 in our group, I advertised in GLFF hoping to get 3 or 4 more freeps as we were lacking in dps and also stated that we were facing twice the numbers.
    True. This is one of those things that Phil mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bennybo View Post
    know sometimes the grouped creeps of 10-12 fighting turns into 18 or so when out of no where 9 wargs come running in to fights. It happens just as much as a freep groups that would have 10-12 and a bunch of burgs, "soloers", or small kin groups fall in around them later. There is nothing that whoever is leading those groups can do to stop it.
    However, before jumping ahead to that scenario where we wiped you at the cows, I'd like to point out a couple things that happened earlier.



    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I could only include 5 pics in one post. See next post for the other 2 pics.

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    Again, a group wiping ungrouped opposition. And staying grouped.

    Now, after getting roflpwned a couple times, an FND group of 5 formed, and I joined them on WL because they asked for a healer. We wiped a couple times fighting you as we mapped in to GTA (I didn't get any SS's of this, but it happened), and then another group formed separate from ours, I think Callem was leading it. I suggested joining together, since the freeps clearly had at least one group of 8-9 (yours) as well as 6-8 out of groupers (some of whom appeared to be grouped up in multiple smaller groups), including a burg pack (you will see Shadowzhider in some screenshots, and we all know he never comes out without a pack).

    My group decided they didn't want to consolidate with Callem's, even though there were still plenty of freeps to oppose. Why we didn't consolidate, idk, I would've consolidated, but I wasn't the leader of our group by any means, so I didn't really have the authority.

    You were fighting two different groups along with I think 2-3 out of groupers at the cows. And, whoa, big surprise here, after we wiped you once, all the other freeps not in your group, plus the burg pack, left you guys.

    I left the FND group after we wiped you, because I saw the creeps now had more than enough, and the other freep small groups had abandoned you, lol. My guess is that around this time was when you did this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    I didn't receive any tells. I then had kinmates advertise and still nothing. After waiting 10 minutes and receiving no more tells, I decided to go do something else. I had a theory, however, about why I didn't receive tells. I wanted to test my theory so I advertised in GLFF that it was a grams camp and I needed more freeps. I then went afk and came back about 10 minutes later. I received 7 tells. 0 tells were received when it was advertised we were facing twice the numbers. 7 tells were received when it was advertised that we were camping grams.
    And here we see another reason that PvP has been so poor lately. Bad players only want to come out when they can faceroll. Frustrating beyond belief. For you, and for me. I didn't want the action to end simply because creeps wiped you guys once and all your out of groupers left. But that was the case, and nothing could be done about it.

    If those out of groupers had stayed with you, or better yet, joined you when you asked for more, it would've been some very good action out there for a while. Probably would've been even better action had FND joined with Callem.


    Okay, last couple of quotes, this post is getting terribly long.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    So, conversely, instead of creeps not grouping up:

    1) Maybe freeps should quit hugging the backdoor of lug or another keep if it is unavailable when they have equal or greater number than the creeps.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    2) Maybe they should learn to group up.
    Agreed. Usually after one wipe, they leave the moors instead of grouping up to get some action going, it's rather annoying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    3) Since there aren't enough leaders as you stated, perhaps you could step up to the plate and lead the side lacking a leader (which will be freep side).
    That would involve responsibility, which scares me. Maybe I will lead raids in a couple weeks or so, but me being a competitive player and not enjoying grouping with people who don't follow assist, etc. makes me a terrible leader most of the time. My little admonition towards not grouping with noobs applies to me as much as anyone else.

    It really is too bad that a lot of leaders who knew how to "whip the crowd into shape" (yeah, I just said "whip the crowd into shape," I sound like an old man) left this server. It was enjoyable when people used to stay out because they knew some leaders could beat the odds. I almost feel like some (probably not the majority, but some) freeps leave the moors when they wipe not because they're bad and they want to ezmode, but because they know they have no chance against an organized creep group, because there's no regular leaders who know how to fight anymore. It sickens me everytime I see Duimegrant say "pst for moors" in glff, because I know he is literally not doing anything for his group besides putting up a target assist and inviting everyone he gets a tell from. And he's probably the only person freeps think of when they think of a leader anymore.

  5. #5
    The "other 2 pics" I mentioned.





  6. #6
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    Holy Wall of text Batman. Swift, I think you win the award Largest Wall of Text. If this game could be won based on Wall of Text, you would be a CG at this point. Good points in the thread. Really it comes down having guts without a group, which many do not.

  7. #7
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    I like the screenshot with Merrsa stating they wiped us and we came back with 10. It's funny, because of what Whee said right after. And it's completely true (though we came back with 7, not 10) and a certain warg in their group was macro exploiting and pretty much one shot me, Nirrti-1, and Shovo when we were out trio'ing. I believe Triplekill and the burg pack kept following us around. That's another of my pet peeves in the moors. Anyways, while at Good Lug, I talked to them in /say stating that there was a creep raid out, that we were in communication with them, and that I had told them our location and that my group wouldn't attack them if they wanted to map in and kill the out of groupers following us. Needless to say, they left pretty quickly.

    As for our creep group of 7 or 8 not disbanding when we were fighting in TR, what would you suggest? Disband and run into the keep solo as freeps start sitting in it or at the backdoor again? That group started out as a duo and I just added one here and one there as people came in vent and asked for an invite. If we had wanted to faceroll, I would have combined my small group with Phil's while his raid was still out. To suggest creeps not to disband a group of 7-8 when they're fighting in the freep keep is pretty dumb. As soon as the creeps run around solo, the freeps will go back to just sitting in the keep obliterating every solo creep that tries to pvp them or the burg pack of 4-6 will just pop up, smash you, and then disappear as soon as one of them gets to 2/3 morale. Instead of putting all this effort into telling us it's a bad idea to group, perhaps you should spend it in telling the players who aren't grouping or are only fair weather pvpers to change their play style.

    The problem with the pvp on this server lies with those who are fair weather pvpers and those who don't want to group up. I can agree with some of what you said, but as a whole, I disagree entirely with your suggestion.
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  8. #8
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    Well swift it kinda sounds like your more blaming vic for stacking heals than anything else really. I know it may seem unfair but I'm pretty sure there is no mini turned down to join a freep raid especially since they are also a viable dps threat unlike their mirror class defiler.


    I don't know what you mean about wiping me at the cows?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennybo View Post
    Well swift it kinda sounds like your more blaming vic for stacking heals than anything else really. I know it may seem unfair but I'm pretty sure there is no mini turned down to join a freep raid especially since they are also a viable dps threat unlike their mirror class defiler.


    I don't know what you mean about wiping me at the cows?
    I just was leading a group from vent. It's not like I started a group with the intent of destroying pvp. It actually just started out with me and a WL. Phil made a group to fight the 16 freeps hugging TR. I didn't really feel like grouping at the time so me and the WL kept duo'ing and suiciding into the keep to see how many freeps would could take out before we got blown up by burgs and npcs. As people joined vent, they asked what we were up to, and over time we grew to 7. Trying to recall the make up we had but I believe it was only two warleaders. I'm not really understanding the crying about groups of 7 creeps (last night) or a group of 5 freeps (tonight). It's absolutely absurd to tell members of a kin or tribe that they shouldn't group together in an MMORPG. The solution to your issue, Swift, isn't every playing solo. The solution is grouping up. With that said, group up, or shut up. Players who group up aren't the issue, it's players who refuse to group or log because they can't figure out a way to beat a SMALL group.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennybo View Post
    I don't know what you mean about wiping me at the cows?
    Oh I was just referencing your quote to show that the fact that two creep groups happened to collide at the cows and wipe the freep group was the exact situation you described as something that happens sometimes that leaders have no control over. Didn't mean wiping you, meant when creeps wiped Vic's group when there were about 14 creeps vs. his 7

  11. #11
    Holmon here.
    As one of the 6 freeps in the group vs. about 12-16 creeps mostly grouped, i have to agree with some of the things Swift said. Our group did not have much dps, so we had no chance. This really makes me wonder what this creep raid was grouped for. Is it not easy enough to kill 6 freeps with about triple the numbers. Yes i was a yellow line cappy, and they r incredibly Overpowered, but what was i supposed to do the creeps. They had enough healers so i could not really do anything.

    Im in some of the pics swift posted, and in one i free swift from a daze

    Your welcome.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holmon View Post
    Holmon here.
    As one of the 6 freeps in the group vs. about 12-16 creeps mostly grouped, i have to agree with some of the things Swift said. Our group did not have much dps, so we had no chance. This really makes me wonder what this creep raid was grouped for. Is it not easy enough to kill 6 freeps with about triple the numbers. Yes i was a yellow line cappy, and they r incredibly Overpowered, but what was i supposed to do the creeps. They had enough healers so i could not really do anything.

    Im in some of the pics swift posted, and in one i free swift from a daze

    Your welcome.
    It was 11 creeps at TR. 7-8 were grouped. You guys had no issues sitting there when there were 16 freeps turtling from 8 or so creeps. I can't help it that all the fairweather pvpers left the Moors cause they died once or twice. That was hardly triple the numbers. If you want to be upset about all the freeps bailing after dying once, voice your opinion in the fairweather pvper's direction. Annnnnddd, when aren't you yellow line?

    It was 16 freeps when 11 or less pushed. If some died a few times and bailed, are creeps supposed to disband immediately so it can revert back to 16 freeps at TR so they can farm any solo creep that tries to fight greater numbers while they hug a keep? I'm really failing to understand the logic of this thread.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    It was 16 freeps when 11 or less pushed.
    Wrong. It was your group of 9, which we can count, plus Phil's raid, which he already said had 8-10 in it, plus some out of groupers including me and Spiderbyte and some wargs I do not remember. That is far more than 11 or less, using my basic elementary math skillz of counting on my fingers. Some might even say that is twice than your estimate of 11.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    If some died a few times and bailed, are creeps supposed to disband immediately so it can revert back to 16 freeps at TR so they can farm any solo creep that tries to fight greater numbers while they hug a keep? I'm really failing to understand the logic of this thread.
    No, you're supposed to disband immediately or at least reduce your numbers so that the 6 freeps have a fighting chance. You really think the 10 other freeps would coincidentally look in their magical guru balls and realize the creeps have disbanded and instantly return? Your logic is flawless. Plus, it wasn't even remotely close to a fighting chance when you had a group with 3 WLs and they hardly had any dps.

    Let's look at another scenario. A group of 5 freeps, say, 3 minstrels, rk and captain, with a minstrel and captain healing, vs. a defiler, BA, and 2 reavers. You cannot kill a minstrel who knows how to use flop anymore with a reaver, they simply flop the moment you finish putting up bleeds if they are smart. A captain can simply take the hit while the minstrel heals him. Plus, all this while an rk is perma slowing you with the rock. The BA wouldn't even stand a chance against the rk, while the other minstrel is stunning the reavers with every other attack after resilience's 5 seconds are up.

    Sometimes, grouping up simply will not work. The "group up or shut up" argument has always been weak and completely unviable. Sometimes one side simply cannot compete with the other, even grouped.

    Now, my second point. Numbers mean nothing in this game anymore. A reaver can kill a player in the midst of 12 terrible freeps who don't react quick enough. A minstrel can keep himself up against 12 terrible creeps who can't dps enough. Grouping up doesn't fix a difference in skill level, nor will it ever. You saw today that a group of creeps with the outnumbered buff utterly destroyed a massive raid of freeps numerous times.

    It doesn't matter if you have 6, 12, or 30 creeps vs 5 good freeps. If the 5 freeps are good enough, they will still get kills. And the less creeps you have, the less chance the creeps will even get one kill.

    That has, is, and always will be the point of this thread. PvP is not fun (for me, and I don't doubt for many others as well) when one side is perma winning and one side is not getting any kills. It is not fun when I am on the winning side, it is not fun when I am on the losing side. That is always my motive when I flip to one side or another, to help out the side that is not getting kills, or if I feel like one side is ABOUT to not get kills.

    You can talk about the "potency of grouping up" all you like, but when the dust clears, you will still be a person who enjoys a style of play that is aimed at simply not dying AT ALL while wiping the opposition, you will still be a person who does not understand why I do not enjoy that style of play, and I will still be awesome. These three things will forever be true. I hate facerolling. I understand that is a side effect of being good at this game. I understand that many in your kin are good at this game, and thus sometimes there will be facerolling. But that doesn't mean you have to stay grouped up after it is apparent that you are facerolling.



    Let me just say, that ESPECIALLY doesn't mean you ask for more help when you are getting kills, but also dying. The concept of dying for kills has always been frowned upon by ezmoders. (Yeah, you can be an ezmoder and still be good at this game, shocking, I know.)

  14. #14
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    Just pointing out, before Swift posts about tonight, why my argument about grouping up is the best way to go. Tonight was epic with both sides grouping. Have at it, tiger.

    EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't beat him to the punch.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    Just pointing out, before Swift posts about tonight, why my argument about grouping up is the best way to go. Tonight was epic with both sides grouping. Have at it, tiger.

    EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't beat him to the punch.
    I'm not saying not to group up I'm saying disband when it is time to disband. Aka when the opposition is not getting any kills, disband.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    Wrong. It was your group of 9, which we can count, plus Phil's raid, which he already said had 8-10 in it, plus some out of groupers including me and Spiderbyte and some wargs I do not remember. That is far more than 11 or less, using my basic elementary math skillz of counting on my fingers. Some might even say that is twice than your estimate of 11.
    By the time I had more than 3 in my raid, Phil had already disbanded.


    Quote Originally Posted by idiot
    No, you're supposed to disband immediately or at least reduce your numbers so that the 6 freeps have a fighting chance. You really think the 10 other freeps would coincidentally look in their magical guru balls and realize the creeps have disbanded and instantly return? Your logic is flawless. Plus, it wasn't even remotely close to a fighting chance when you had a group with 3 WLs and they hardly had any dps.
    2 wls. There were 16 freeps there when I started pushing the keep with me and a wl. Phil had 9 at that time. Most of the freeps died once or twice and left. That's their fault, not mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiot
    Let's look at another scenario. A group of 5 freeps, say, 3 minstrels, rk and captain, with a minstrel and captain healing, vs. a defiler, BA, and 2 reavers. You cannot kill a minstrel who knows how to use flop anymore with a reaver, they simply flop the moment you finish putting up bleeds if they are smart. A captain can simply take the hit while the minstrel heals him. Plus, all this while an rk is perma slowing you with the rock. The BA wouldn't even stand a chance against the rk, while the other minstrel is stunning the reavers with every other attack after resilience's 5 seconds are up.
    Once again, an example of players logging after they lost their win button. The group in question, began as a guard and minstrel that was being wrecked left and right. I participated in a few of those and left to do crafting on my freep toons. The freeps ended up adding a few more to their group. The creeps didn't. Guess what happened? The creeps wiped. Maybe you should have followed the freep's lead and made a group. They adjusted to the situation. You didn't. You lost. Suck it it up. Or go rant in glff about it again.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiot
    Sometimes, grouping up simply will not work. The "group up or shut up" argument has always been weak and completely unviable. Sometimes one side simply cannot compete with the other, even grouped.
    That happens at times. When I can't overcome the odds, I give it one or two more shots, and if those fail and it's a completely one-sided fight, I go do something else. I don't whine about it in glff. If you had mad a group, you probably could have overcame the odds. However, you chose not to make a group, so you didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiot
    Now, my second point. Numbers mean nothing in this game anymore. A reaver can kill a player in the midst of 12 terrible freeps who don't react quick enough. A minstrel can keep himself up against 12 terrible creeps who can't dps enough. Grouping up doesn't fix a difference in skill level, nor will it ever. You saw today that a group of creeps with the outnumbered buff utterly destroyed a massive raid of freeps numerous times.
    I'm failing to see how this supports your argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiot
    It doesn't matter if you have 6, 12, or 30 creeps vs 5 good freeps. If the 5 freeps are good enough, they will still get kills. And the less creeps you have, the less chance the creeps will even get one kill.
    Again, I fail to see how this supports your argument. You're pretty much arguing that grouping up ruins the game, and then are saying it doesn't matter how many creeps or freeps are in a group.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiot
    That has, is, and always will be the point of this thread. PvP is not fun (for me, and I don't doubt for many others as well) when one side is perma winning and one side is not getting any kills. It is not fun when I am on the winning side, it is not fun when I am on the losing side. That is always my motive when I flip to one side or another, to help out the side that is not getting kills, or if I feel like one side is ABOUT to not get kills.
    Well, I guess the point of this thread didn't deter you from joining my vent channel, and asking me to go lead on freep tonight after you were bragging about the creeps obliterating the freep raid while having the outnumber buff. Because if you adhered to the logic in the quote above, you would have flipped over to aid them.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiot
    You can talk about the "potency of grouping up" all you like, but when the dust clears, you will still be a person who enjoys a style of play that is aimed at simply not dying AT ALL while wiping the opposition, you will still be a person who does not understand why I do not enjoy that style of play, and I will still be awesome. These three things will forever be true. I hate facerolling. I understand that is a side effect of being good at this game. I understand that many in your kin are good at this game, and thus sometimes there will be facerolling. But that doesn't mean you have to stay grouped up after it is apparent that you are facerolling.
    I can't argue with your perception of me here. When I lead a raid, freep or creep, I aim to win. I'm pretty sure that's any raid leaders goal. As a rule of thumb, I don't make raids unless I think it is necessary. As stated earlier in this thread, I could have made a raid or joined Phil's. I, instead, pushed into a blue TR w/ only a warleader to see how many kills we got. As people joined my kinship ventrilo, I added them if they requested it, and we ended up capping out at 7-8 after Phil's raid had disbanded, when I had 4. I'm uncertain as to how this supports any of the argument you have placed in this thread, but I can't help if freeps have numbers, die once or twice, and then those numbers halve. If anything, that only supports the group up or shut up which I suggested. If you felt that they needed the help with all the preaching you have done, perhaps you should have flopped over and tried to make a group? I certainly tried later in the night.

    Quote Originally Posted by idiot
    Let me just say, that ESPECIALLY doesn't mean you ask for more help when you are getting kills, but also dying. The concept of dying for kills has always been frowned upon by ezmoders. (Yeah, you can be an ezmoder and still be good at this game, shocking, I know.)
    I ask for help, when I deem the request warranted. More often than not, I get the help, and the opposing side topples overs and bounces. Both examples you've used in this thread, began with freeps/creeps being outnumbered. Last night, it was me and Nirrti on creep against 16 freeps + Phil's raid. Phil's raid left, so we got a few more as they joined vent. This afternoon, it was Eccentric and Krayken getting pwned by creeps. Both times, the groups in question, who were getting pwned, adapted and added a few numbers. The opposing side (fairweather pvpers) chose to bounce or stay solo. How can you fault anyone except the players who chose to bounce once it wasn't ezmode or refused to group up?
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  17. #17
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    Ok, sadly (or luckily ) I'm from Europe and I mostly can't be in Moors during prime time. Few pvpers from HotR are also from Europe and Asia too. When we're on and decide to go to Moors, we go for fun and laughs, to play and just have fun. Most of the time in Moors we're groupped up and we group up with some others we like to be groupped with, but if we have 6+ going, almost everyone is welcome. We don't arrange fights, we don't spy on creep OOC, we don't use teamspeak. If we see our kinnie on his/her creep, we usually target them first, unless RvR. We don't disband after couple of wipes, even when all odds are against us (Mu's rating is 603 ). I can't speak for all HotR, but that what I've said applies to most. Few of the kinnies have severe lag issues so they can't join raids.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bond007 View Post
    It sickens me everytime I see Duimegrant say "pst for moors" in glff, because I know he is literally not doing anything for his group besides putting up a target assist and inviting everyone he gets a tell from.
    You can like him or hate him, but Duime is most of the time in Moors, and he's either solo or groupped up with only pvp in mind. He doesn't have mic because of his limited english, which makes it really hard sometimes, but he's no elitist or whatever, doesn't chooses who to group with as long as he can kill creeps. And I respect him for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn
    The solution is grouping up. With that said, group up, or shut up. Players who group up aren't the issue, it's players who refuse to group or log because they can't figure out a way to beat a SMALL group.
    Agree with you on this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn
    Anyways, while at Good Lug, I talked to them in /say stating that there was a creep raid out, that we were in communication with them, and that I had told them our location and that my group wouldn't attack them if they wanted to map in and kill the out of groupers following us.
    and you wonder why people don't like to group up with SB? I know lot of people that don't trust SB (besides Shovo, Erilen and few more) just because of teamspeak with creepside and don't want to group with them.

  18. #18
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    @Mucica:

    Kudos to you, guys. I'm never on when yall are on and respect anyone that has action going early on. And in reference to your last quote...... They may not like us, but when they follow us around to gold tag, I have no regrets on that. That is absolutely one of my biggest pet peeves in the moors, are players who want to follow the group/raid around w/o contributing to it. Any players who want to enjoy the benefits of a group/raid without aiding it can bug off. If we ran into a 24 creep raid with our 7 or so we had at that time, absolutely everyone of those burgs would have left us high and dry and Triplekill would have df'd. I do not apologize, in the least, for what I did there and will continue to have that mentality on freepside if I happen to be leading on it. We certainly don't have that on creepside (because we play as a team, not a fairweather pvper) and that is almost entirely why I refuse to lead freep. I'm certainly not going to entertain a burg pack that wants to kill creeps that we're on, when it's opportunistic for them, and leave us hanging when it's not. Same thing with out of group hunters. If that's the opinion freeps have of me on freepside, I welcome that @$%& with welcoming arms. Cause those are precisely the players I don't want following my raids/groups around. Thank you very much.

    EDIT: I've stated it earlier in this thread, and I'll say it again, when we had 7 and were facing 14 creeps, I advertised in GLFF for more stating the circumstances... I got zero tells. After 20 minutes of no tells and no hope, I went afk. Before I went afk, I advertised a grams camp and got 7 tells. That right there is pretty much another reason I try to avoid freep side, even though my hunter is in line for first r14 freep. I will openly voice my low opinion of freepside, especially the burg packs that you are somewhat defending in your post. However, I do offer kudos to all the freeps that were out tonight. We had some major battles. Sorry that you guys well east of the US missed out on it, Mucica. We had a full creep raid and then some vs 36 freeps.
    Last edited by Ravyrn; Jan 08 2014 at 04:38 AM.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    ...players who want to enjoy the benefits of a group/raid without aiding it can bug off.
    Maybe, just maybe, some of them don't play on good computers and can't handle the raid lag? We had that issue with some kinnies, and they just left raid because of all the freezing. Maybe Triple has same problem, idk. EDIT: I only mentioned up that some people can't join raids due to severe lag with one kinnie in mind, R11 mini Hobdaeron. If there was group of burgs next to yours and they all hipsed when craid was coming, says lot about them. Nobody really likes raid-taggers, and I personally dislike all multiboxers, macro-exploiters, star-huggers and farmers.
    Last edited by Mucica; Jan 08 2014 at 06:26 AM. Reason: Supplemental

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mucica View Post
    Maybe, just maybe, some of them don't play on good computers and can't handle the raid lag? We had that issue with some kinnies, and they just left raid because of all the freezing. Maybe Triple has same problem, idk.
    If you're in the mix of things, what's the difference? They'd have the same lag out of group as they would in. And you're certainly not going to sell me on that notion on any burgs or hunters tagging. The burgs are almost always out in groups of 4-6 every night, so certainly grouping doesn't cause any lag. I don't play on a good computer either, and I have many things set off well below the default "Ultra low" settings.
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    You guys are cute.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    By the time I had more than 3 in my raid, Phil had already disbanded.
    Uh, no. Like Phil said, your group was there with him when he first pushed the keep
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennybo View Post
    I then added up to 12 and entered the keep(a few times vic and crew, if they were even grouped, were there and other times they were off doing something else) and fought inside the keep until the DOTH group left TR.
    And I have my own eyes to prove that your statement is wrong. You had a group while, and well after, Phil entered TR and wiped them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    2 wls. There were 16 freeps there when I started pushing the keep with me and a wl. Phil had 9 at that time. Most of the freeps died once or twice and left. That's their fault, not mine.
    Let's use our math skills again! Looker... okay... one! Skreemer... okay... two! Wait, is that another? WAIT A SECOND. I see Crysoul there as well! Whoa! That is... 1... 2... 3! Congratulations, I now don't trust your counting skills enough to believe that Phil only had 9, unless he confirms that. Also, the freeps leaving is not your fault, but you sticking around with 9 creeps after they left is.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    Once again, an example of players logging after they lost their win button. The group in question, began as a guard and minstrel that was being wrecked left and right. I participated in a few of those and left to do crafting on my freep toons. The freeps ended up adding a few more to their group. The creeps didn't.
    You say this as if the creeps had a group. Guess what? Some people do not enjoy grouping up! Yes, it is astounding! The creeps who were out chose to leave or stay solo when I asked if anyone wanted to small group! Woooooah. Impossibru.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    Guess what happened? The creeps wiped. Maybe you should have followed the freep's lead and made a group. They adjusted to the situation. You didn't. You lost. Suck it it up. Or go rant in glff about it again.
    They were getting kills before they added more. Before they added more, they were dying for their kills. After they added more, they were in very, very, very, very, very little risk of death while getting kills. Yeah, I said five very's.

    Yes, there were more creeps when it was easier to get kills, again something that is a problem, but ignore that for a brief second here while I make my point. The freeps (all 3 of them -- I came out and saw Nirrti, Eccentric, and Krayken in something that appeared to be a group unless you can magically get minstrel -% inc damage buffs out of group now) were at tr. The ungrouped creeps had far more so we pushed them into the rez. They were still getting kills at the rez. They were not the only ones dying. Occasionally creeps would get one shotted, I think this happened twice, but the minstrels had more than enough dps to push out and get Hashtag three times, Energizer twice, me twice, Shnakshnaw once, and Morsum once. The minnies themselves probably died four times each, or somewhere around there. But again, let me repeat: they were getting kills with their group of 3. You seem set upon ignoring this fact, as did everyone in SB who replied to my comments in glff. Call it whining as you will, I don't care, as long as you actually read it and think about it.


    Again, I will state the purpose of this post, since you seem so set upon straw man arguing your way through it: I am not against grouping up. I do not think grouping up kills PvP. I think KEEPING A GROUP ALIVE WHEN THERE IS NOT ENOUGH RESISTANCE LEFT (measured by how many kills each side is getting) KILLS PVP. There. I said it in all caps and bold so maybe you will read it this time? Or you can continue setting up straw men.

    If one side is not getting ANY kills, it is the other side's turn to disband. If one side is getting kills, you know something is going right. Now one side may be getting vastly less kills than the other, but that is not the point. IF they are still getting kills, you know that the opposing raid has a weakness. Whether that is a skill weakness, a lack of npcs to fall back to, etc. it means that both sides have a chance at turning this thing around.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    That happens at times. When I can't overcome the odds, I give it one or two more shots, and if those fail and it's a completely one-sided fight, I go do something else. I don't whine about it in glff. If you had mad a group, you probably could have overcame the odds. However, you chose not to make a group, so you didn't.
    I asked in OOC if anyone would like to group up. I got 3 tells from Energizer, Bagbalm, and Shnakshnaw (the last two I asked directly). Oh boy, a defiler who warned me he didn't have full audacity, a BA vs all tactical classes, and 2 reavers. The fact that you are implying that we would have gotten one kill against 3 minstrels, an rk, and a captain who are all very good players is very laughable. Both RK and captain have potent inc healing modifiers, RK has a perma slow to eat up melee classes, and blue line cappies are very potent in the moors from what it seems. I mean, you saw the other night what Grimphore, me on my hunter, and Kerelas on his hunter (I think it was Kerelas? I am not sure. It was another hunter) did to your raid, if you remember the night three freeps got two kills in the midst of a 9-10 person creep raid that you were leading. We killed Baunderbridge and Furrinmymouth because we stayed alive long enough, lol. That is all just to say that blue line cappies count just as much as a full healer in the moors now, hell maybe even more so with all the buffs.

    I will tell you what would've happened if the four creeps had grouped up.

    New timeline from the past. We would've charged in, targetting Eccentric. Immediate flop after bleeds put up. Switch targets to Deltron in an effort to bring him down. All this while being dazed, stunned, and slowed by the dps minnies, the RK stone, and the RK skills. Pop resilience for 5s, put up our 2 remaining bleeds each on Deltron (since we wasted our thrash and mutilate on Eccentric at the beginning) only to realize that Eccentric is back up from her flop and full healing him. Impale crits with both reavers (haha, no. As if that ever happens.) and Deltron pops to 10k only to rise right back up as a minstrel is healing him. 5s from resilience anti-CC is up, now we're being stunned again. Our defiler is well dead by now, if they had just one inc healing debuff on him. Our BA is going down, but his slow can't keep up with the 50% slow from the RK rock. Our resilience is down. Freeps finish off the BA and then kite around the stone to finish off the reavers.

    Creeps log. Freeps make victorious statement about pwning unskilled creeps, because now they can say the creeps have no excuse to be mad because they grouped up and still failed. I log over and make vicious statements about why freeps should have disbanded in glff. Same thing happens in glff that happened before. We return to current timeline.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    I'm failing to see how this supports your argument.
    My point is what it is. Numbers do not matter. You can have 13 freeps facing 2 creeps and if the 13 freeps are bad enough, the 2 creeps could be getting kills. You can have 13 freeps facing 2 creeps and if the 2 creeps are bad enough, they're not coming remotely close to getting any kills. You were intent on emphasizing how many freeps there were yesterday when I logged on and made comments in glff. You completely ignored who those freeps were, as if that doesn't matter in this game. That's the only thing that matters! WHO it is matters far more than HOW MANY. That is what is still so cool about the PvP in this game. You can overcome odds. The odds yesterday were not overcome-able though, since all the freeps who were out were very good players. Not all the creep who were out were good players, and we simply didn't have the group makeup to overcome that freep group. I would've needed one WL at least, and I still don't think the reavers would've been able to finish off any of them, not with 30s mini flop and rk perma slow. And there's no way I would've switched to one of my 13 audacity creeps lol if that's what you would suggest next, that would've been even more of a free meal for that freep group.

    When I can't overcome the odds, I log. And yes, I do mention it in glff, because I think it is worth mentioning. Why let something go on when I think that it shouldn't be happening? Better to speak up against it. I'm not gonna sit down and shut up simply because yesterday it happened to be people who I get along with doing the facerolling.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    Again, I fail to see how this supports your argument. You're pretty much arguing that grouping up ruins the game, and then are saying it doesn't matter how many creeps or freeps are in a group.
    I never once said that grouping up ruins this game. Not once. Grouping up is perfectly fine... WHEN YOU HAVE OPPOSITION. There. I just said it, what, like five million times in the last 4 posts?



    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    Well, I guess the point of this thread didn't deter you from joining my vent channel, and asking me to go lead on freep tonight after you were bragging about the creeps obliterating the freep raid while having the outnumber buff. Because if you adhered to the logic in the quote above, you would have flipped over to aid them.
    The freeps were still getting kills. They were getting wiped, yes, but they were still killing creeps and pushing in TR. If the freeps were not getting ANY kills, I would have (reluctantly, I might add, since I was so close to rank on reaver) switched to freepside and joined them. Again, you twist reality in order to tear at my argument.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    I can't argue with your perception of me here. When I lead a raid, freep or creep, I aim to win. I'm pretty sure that's any raid leaders goal.
    Yes... but is winning more about whether or not you wipe the opposition, or whether or not you wipe the opposition while allowing them no kills?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    As a rule of thumb, I don't make raids unless I think it is necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    As people joined my kinship ventrilo, I added them if they requested it,
    Good irony!


    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    As stated earlier in this thread, I could have made a raid or joined Phil's. I, instead, pushed into a blue TR w/ only a warleader to see how many kills we got. As people joined my kinship ventrilo, I added them if they requested it, and we ended up capping out at 7-8 after Phil's raid had disbanded, when I had 4. I'm uncertain as to how this supports any of the argument you have placed in this thread, but I can't help if freeps have numbers, die once or twice, and then those numbers halve. If anything, that only supports the group up or shut up which I suggested. If you felt that they needed the help with all the preaching you have done, perhaps you should have flopped over and tried to make a group? I certainly tried later in the night.
    No, I'd rather take screenshots so that you don't make up numbers later. And honestly, there was nothing that group was going to do against you. Even if I switched over, I don't do even a fraction of the dps needed to take down 3 WLs now. Lol, last night's raid on creepside had 4 WLs and one low rank defiler, and we were not wiping against 33-36 freeps. You really think the 6 freeps in that screenshot could've gotten a kill through 3 WLs, just with the addition of a hunter? Wait, no, you don't, you're just trying to avoid confronting that fact though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ravyrn View Post
    I ask for help, when I deem the request warranted. More often than not, I get the help, and the opposing side topples overs and bounces. Both examples you've used in this thread, began with freeps/creeps being outnumbered. Last night, it was me and Nirrti on creep against 16 freeps + Phil's raid. Phil's raid left, so we got a few more as they joined vent. This afternoon, it was Eccentric and Krayken getting pwned by creeps. Both times, the groups in question, who were getting pwned, adapted and added a few numbers. The opposing side (fairweather pvpers) chose to bounce or stay solo. How can you fault anyone except the players who chose to bounce once it wasn't ezmode or refused to group up?
    You say they were "getting pwned." What. The. F---. Does. That. Even. Mean. Are you saying they couldn't wipe the creeps? I was unaware that if you are not wiping the opposition, you are "getting pwned." They were getting kills, we were getting kills, action was fine. I have never understood why people get angry over being camped if they're getting kills at the camp. If you're not getting kills, group up, I never said I was against that. But usually if one side is not getting kills, it is because the other side is grouped unnecessarily, not because the first side is not grouped. It's a matter of perspective, I understand, but sometimes group v group is not feasible, while ungrouped v ungrouped almost always is. PvP is about getting kills, not worrying over deaths. When I flipped over in glff, you and yours were content to pound at the fact and tell me not to be mad when I die, which I am not, but then you conveniently ignore that when those freeps grouped up... they were... wait for it... purposefully grouping to avoid death! Explain to me for what reason they added more to their group if not to not die. (That's a weird sentence. But I think you know what I mean.) I really would like to see you come up with one other reason. Just one!

    You say fairweather pvpers, but isn't the very DEFINITION of fairweather pvp not fighting unless you have very low risk, or no risk, of dying? Then what does that tell you about what they did when they added more to their group in order not to die? If you are going to purely blame "fairweather pvpers" then your argument defeats itself... it obviously can't be fairweather pvpers alone that is the problem, there has to be something else.



    I think you are becoming too worried over the fact that I am just happening to point out instances where your kin is doing the facerolling. I am not calling out SB on anything, it is simply coincidence that these last two days had perfect examples for my argument. This happens with other groups too.
    Last edited by Bond007; Jan 08 2014 at 02:27 PM.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mucica View Post
    Ok, sadly (or luckily ) I'm from Europe and I mostly can't be in Moors during prime time. Few pvpers from HotR are also from Europe and Asia too. When we're on and decide to go to Moors, we go for fun and laughs, to play and just have fun. Most of the time in Moors we're groupped up and we group up with some others we like to be groupped with, but if we have 6+ going, almost everyone is welcome. We don't arrange fights, we don't spy on creep OOC, we don't use teamspeak. If we see our kinnie on his/her creep, we usually target them first, unless RvR. We don't disband after couple of wipes, even when all odds are against us (Mu's rating is 603 ). I can't speak for all HotR, but that what I've said applies to most. Few of the kinnies have severe lag issues so they can't join raids.
    Most of the times, Ronnug/Lewzah/Incendio has (or have) a group out and running early in the morning, fighting you guys. I'll be honest, action in the morning is pretty fun! It's almost always the best for the entire day until prime time for the U.S. later on. I'm really talking about U.S. afternoons and late mornings being meh lately.

    Don't stop doing what you're doing! It's cool that you guys are having fun in the moors, nothing wrong with that lol. Early morning for U.S. is primetime for Europeans, so I understand that group v group action gets going at that time. Again, I would like to stress that I am not saying group v group action is bad for PvP. Honestly, my argument applies more often to the creeps in the early morning, who often keep a raid out after the usual HotR group takes off for the night. The creeps stick around with a raid to flip the map red and hunt down remaining freeps until they get bored and leave for a bit. The only time my disband advice applies to early morning freeps is when there is a massive grams camp in the morning, and people are asking for more in glff. That is just disappointing to see most of the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mucica View Post
    You can like him or hate him, but Duime is most of the time in Moors, and he's either solo or groupped up with only pvp in mind. He doesn't have mic because of his limited english, which makes it really hard sometimes, but he's no elitist or whatever, doesn't chooses who to group with as long as he can kill creeps. And I respect him for that.
    I respect him for his determination to stay out even when he is wiping, I respect him for his desire to get more freeps out in the moors, and I respect him for his tenacity in 1v1s... he is one hard sucker to kill! I also respect him for playing a class that has the full ability to run away, and he often doesn't. He sticks around and attempts to get a kill, which is cool to see. So I respect him for a lot.

    That being said, I do get chills everytime I see his post in glff "pst for moors" and I'm in the moors on whatever side and I see a grams camp. There really is no need to group up for a grams camp when the creeps don't have the makings of a capable group yet That's the only thing I don't like that he does.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by the_blah View Post
    You guys are cute.
    Join in on the fun and you can be cute too!

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Burleson TX
    Posts
    1,379
    Ya know guys, I still feel as if most of you are still missing the boat here.

    Let me see if I can put this in a way that will make it easy to understand:

    You and I set down across from one another for a little pvp via a game of checkers right? I'm new at checkers and you've been playing for your entire life, so you stomp a mud hole in me right off...
    You gank me at checkers, so how do we make this fair? Do we get up in the middle of the game and change chairs? That might be interesting and it might even make it more of a challenge for you, but that really isn't the design of the game now is it?

    Now I've got a couple of choices, I can quit and just not play you anymore or I can set down for another spanking in hopes that I'll do better each time until I get good enough to give you a good game.

    This game is not unlike a huge game of checkers with multiple participants playing as the individual checkers. Some Blue (Freeps) and some Red (Creeps). Plus there is a disparity, not all our checkers are even (balanced).

    Are you starting to follow me here? Can you see where we're going?

    With all it's diversity, it's still as simple game of capture the flag. Sure it's broke in a lot of ways, but the fundamentals are there. Forget about all the shinney stuff designed to get you to spend your money and invest more time for a second and take a look across the checker board at your opponent? You going to quit or step up to the challenge? Do you really want to go over to his chair and make moves for him?

    I could continue here with a wall of text of my own but I hope you get the picture. All I would really like to see is that when you log into the game, pick your checker color for the duration of the night at least. Face roll your opponent if you can and leave it up to them to step up to the challenge.
    Ronnug - The Blueberry Reaver on Gladden
    I don't feel a thing when dieing ingame. The only time I really mind is when the rez is on the other side of the map.

 

 
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