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  1. #1

    Lightbulb Solutions to the current Champion Issues

    (Also posted in the General Forums, in this thread and cross-posted here for posterity and more focused input. I will be updating both posts as required)


    As it is, there are simply too many issues plaguing the post-Helm's Deep Champion. (A detailed list can be found here).

    In particular, the lack of developer response our class has received makes the whole situation much more embarrassing, as Turbine hasn't even acknowledge these issues, much less addressed them. I swear, every time I look at the Champion change list in patch notes and find it virtually empty I die a little inside.

    I've attempted to compile a list of potential solutions to some of those issues. I'll be editing this post with suggestions from our fellow Champion players in this thread, so feel free to contribute and hopefully Jinjah (our class developer) or someone else will consider implementing some or most of these.

    If a developer does stumble upon this, here is a very simple list of solutions to implement that would go a long way to fixing most champion issues.


    --- ALL LINES ---

    Here are solutions to issues which affect all lines regardless of specialization:

    • Revert Bracing Attack to it's previous Riders of Rohan version with the Heal over Time component. Fight On has too long a cooldown to make up for it. Should heal even if the skill misses.

    • Give us back Hedge. Seriously. It's horrible to feel completely powerless when disarmed, specially since before we could shrug it off completely. Reintroduce Hedge as a specialization independent skill and have it remove disarms and actually prevent them for at least 15 seconds.

    • Bonuses for unconsumed fervour pips make zero sense whatsoever, given that as a Champion you want to spend your fervour pips as fast as possible to maximize damage. There is no incentive for not spending those if you're losing out on damage. A possible solution would be introducing a buff that tiers up the longer you go without spending any fervor that increases skill damage and critical chance, so you can either spend your fervor for some fast damage or wait a bit longer for a "charged attack" with more damage. The buff could go on a low cooldown, so you could only perform charged attacks, say, every 20s.

    • All three initial traits from all lines should be included by default (Second Wind, Brutal Strikes and Battle Frenzy). Replace those traits respectively by something along the lines of:
    - Improved Second Wind: Includes a small power over time component like the old second wind.
    - Improved Brutal Strikes: Gain one extra point of fervor on first strike crit.
    - Improved Battle Frenzy: Gain one extra point of fervor every time an enemy is defeated like the old Red Haze.

    • Fear Nothing is a legacy skill that has stuck around with us since the old days when removing Fear effects actually mattered, but on a 3 minute cooldown it doesn't get much use at all, even if it adds the occasional couple of fervor pips. Consider reducing the skill's cooldown to 40s and have it add a fervor point for each fear effect removed, up to 3, giving Champions additional fervor in instances that are riddled with Fear debuffs.

    --- BERSERKER (RED) LINE ---

    The main problem with this line is your damage output is fairly low, and the current traits are very unpredictable. Here are some solutions that could potentially make the Red line viable for DPS again:

    • Make bleeds do considerably more damage and tier up in the same fashion as Rend bleeds, so the trait is actually worth taking.

    • Make the extra strikes damage trait affect all strikes rather than just the last ones (otherwise it benefits heavily dual wield vs two handed builds, not to mention not synergizing well with Remorseless Strikes)

    • Revert sprint bonus cooldown reduction to 120s, 30s is not worth investing in.

    • Reintroduce Seeking Blades, add a trait that allows brutal strikes to reduce the cooldown of seeking blades by 5 seconds, like on old Hytbold Armour.

    • Attack speed buffs should never expire. If they've tiered up, they should stay up.

    • Emboldened Blades buff should tier down upon a crit rather than be consumed.

    • Maximizing Hedge root duration is useless given subsequent damage often breaks the root. Have it disarm your opponent for 5 seconds in addition to the rooting when maxed instead, that would actually be useful.


    --- DEADLY STORM (YELLOW) LINE ---

    Surprisingly, this line is mostly fine, although a few smaller issues remain:

    • Remove the finesse trait. It's downright useless. Consider replacing it with a flat +% chance of Blade Wall adding a fervor pip, in increments of 10% to 50%.

    • Born of Combat should activate when YOU hit 10 times, not when you're hit 10 times. Also should do more damage than it does for a skill with a long cooldown/usage restriction.


    --- MARTIAL CHAMPION (BLUE) LINE ---

    This line is heavily changed from pre-Helm's Deep experience, and not necessarily for the best. Here are some solutions to making it viable once again:

    • Remove the fervor cost of Bracing Attack when in blue line and lower the cooldown to 20s as it used to be. At the current 30s of cooldown, you can only use it twice before Dire Need is back (with legacy), leaving you with no other reliable means to heal yourself. Also consider making the skill immediate, I'm sure many Champions have died because Bracing Attack didn't proc the heal in time to save their lives.

    • Martial Champion is painfully slow without Flurry. The only time it feels good is when True Heroics is up, but that lasts not even 10s on a 5min cooldown. Consider having riposte proc a +15% attack speed buff on crits that lasts for 15s, so you if you have enough parry responses it could potentially persist throughout the fight.

    • Switch the location of the Vitality trait with the extra Second Wind power restore so that you're not forced to take any (useless) Vitality, and other lines can benefit from extra power from Second Wind (which, if you've been paying attention should be a general skill available to all lines by default), since the removal of stances has severely gimped our In-Combat Power Regeneration.


    --- MISCELLANEOUS ISSUES ---

    • Fix the fervor generation buff from the Helm's Deep Stalwart set removing Battle Frenzy. It actually makes your fervor generation worse. Consider having it sideline Battle Frenzy for the duration of the proc.

    • Crafted horns are now inexplicably consumable, supposedly to allow for one more Champion consumable item. However, with 15 minutes of cooldown, it's simply not worth using them anymore and most players skip these completely now. Consider lowering the cooldown of Crafted Horns considerably to make them actually useful. Three minutes, like our other consumable, the Fervour Potion, seems like a nice middle ground, and might make it worth it investing the time and resources to acquire them. Additionally the Extra Stun Duration Legacy only affects crafted horns at the moment, and with 15 minute cooldown on those, it's simply not worth taking. If the legacy also affected our general stun, Horn of Gondor, that would be a very good legacy in turn.
    Last edited by LunisequiouS; Jan 07 2014 at 12:00 AM.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/RqKkWdz.jpg[/IMG]

  2. #2
    I think your revision of red line is near perfect. Red line is just too sluggish. I love the idea of a tiering deep strikes as well. As it is, deep strikes is inferior to rend in every way. I would be very surprised if a red line champ could out DPS a good DPS guard atm, the superior tiering guard bleeds contribute to this.
    Sprint should be made just as you say, not having the stun isn't a big deal but the cd is a huge deal.
    Seeking blades is a bonus but was never really needed, I could take or leave that. Consistent attack duration is more important.
    The bracing attack hot is a big yes from me, why it was removed still confuses me. Other than fight on, which is limited, champs have practically nothing for survival. In fact, that's all you have in red line, fight on, which an npc could dps through.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/022040000000c6e65/signature.png]Dercin[/charsig]

  3. #3
    First, I play yellow mostly and haven't played with red at all (I was one of the few ardour champs b4). I do tank from time to time, so i have some knowledge there.

    I would like to see rend available to all trees. I know i would enjoy another aoe with a bleed for when i am tanking, I assume red line would benefit as well.

    Next, I would like to see the crit defence rating on blue line (that you are almost forced to take) changed to either percentage like captains have, or an incoming healing boost. With almost no incoming healing on gear I find this rating too low for my liking.

    I second that Blue line needs an attack speed boost, it is painfully slow. Also, since the forced taunt was dropped to 5 seconds I find that if mobs are to spread out for Raging Blades I have very few options for rounding up mobs, other than a 5 min CD skill.

    I will full-heartedly endorse bringing hedge back.

    Also, can we stop putting so much parry rating on tank gear, I'm sitting a 6k over the cap without even trying.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Etheremis View Post
    First, I play yellow mostly and haven't played with red at all (I was one of the few ardour champs b4). I do tank from time to time, so i have some knowledge there.

    I would like to see rend available to all trees. I know i would enjoy another aoe with a bleed for when i am tanking, I assume red line would benefit as well.

    Next, I would like to see the crit defence rating on blue line (that you are almost forced to take) changed to either percentage like captains have, or an incoming healing boost. With almost no incoming healing on gear I find this rating too low for my liking.

    I second that Blue line needs an attack speed boost, it is painfully slow. Also, since the forced taunt was dropped to 5 seconds I find that if mobs are to spread out for Raging Blades I have very few options for rounding up mobs, other than a 5 min CD skill.

    I will full-heartedly endorse bringing hedge back.

    Also, can we stop putting so much parry rating on tank gear, I'm sitting a 6k over the cap without even trying.
    6k over the cap and not much to use it with.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/022040000000c6e65/signature.png]Dercin[/charsig]

  5. #5

    Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Etheremis View Post
    Also, can we stop putting so much parry rating on tank gear, I'm sitting a 6k over the cap without even trying.
    Consider using Warden-tanking gear. With a couple pieces I'm sitting at 27%p, 25%E, and still haven't gone below capped mitigations.
    [img]http://s22.postimg.org/ok6eiwpb5/sofar.jpg[/img]

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by AmazingX View Post
    Consider using Warden-tanking gear. With a couple pieces I'm sitting at 27%p, 25%E, and still haven't gone below capped mitigations.
    You have capped evade with only a couple pieces? I have that hard to believe, unless you're stacking agility heavily (in which case you're losing quite a bit Physical Mastery). I've been putting together an Evade set and it takes just about every gear slot worth of +Evade items to get to cap.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/RqKkWdz.jpg[/IMG]

  7. #7
    I actually do have a few pieces of agi gear, but it denies the underlying issue that by consolidating the stats on gear they have removed diversity for building around caps. Unfortunately, this topic belongs to a different thread entirely. I am sorry I put the snippy parry rating thing in here, I don't want to hijack the initial concept of this thread which the OP did a wonderful job of. Instead of focusing on the gear aspect let us come up with more ideas how to "fix" issues with the class from a mechanics stand-point.

    Another idea would be to lower the cooldown on fear nothing. It's so long and only affects fear that i mostly remember it as a fervor boost rather than as intended. Perhaps it could be a fear removal and a different boost depending upon spec, like heroics.

  8. #8
    I agree to the most of the things.
    I would like to add a change of a legacie, Horn Stun Duration => As a Major legacie on Rune's it should affect OUR SKILL and not the Consumable item, that way it actually useful as a major legacie.

  9. #9
    Agreed on both points, added to the list.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/RqKkWdz.jpg[/IMG]

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Etheremis View Post
    I actually do have a few pieces of agi gear, but it denies the underlying issue that by consolidating the stats on gear they have removed diversity for building around caps. Unfortunately, this topic belongs to a different thread entirely. I am sorry I put the snippy parry rating thing in here, I don't want to hijack the initial concept of this thread which the OP did a wonderful job of. Instead of focusing on the gear aspect let us come up with more ideas how to "fix" issues with the class from a mechanics stand-point.

    Another idea would be to lower the cooldown on fear nothing. It's so long and only affects fear that i mostly remember it as a fervor boost rather than as intended. Perhaps it could be a fear removal and a different boost depending upon spec, like heroics.
    I'd love it to only remove fears (they can take away the fervour pips) and be on a low cooldown. 20-30 seconds seems fair, considering it's only fears and only works on yourself, compared to other classes' removal skills.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,105
    Good suggestions... sadly the same suggestions have been brought forward since B2 and... well... not much has changed. So good effort but probably for naught
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#008000]If it moves, kill it - Then look for more things to kill[/COLOR][/SIZE]

  12. #12
    Champs need a large amount of love in PVMP as considering Creep side and cheer leaders fan club is attempting to get the Guardians nerfed. I simply don't feel I can impact a raid as well as I used to or I feel I should be able to. Adjusting and trying the varried Tree Traits as right now switching from Red main with some blue or Yellow main with some Blue. As just finished upgrading my raid gear to 95. 4 Shining and 2 unyielding rage. Much better but still way squishing especially in sight of the Macroes Warg packs out in the Moors. Any constructive idea would be MOST welcomed.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/08207000000264409/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    lvl 95 Champion / Rank 10 Arkenstone Server / Officer - Order of the Cresent Dragon / Kuznumshi lvl 95 Reaver / Rank 7 Arkenstone Server / Grunt of Tribe of Aracnophobia

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,105
    Quote Originally Posted by Draithenz1971 View Post
    Champs need a large amount of love in PVMP as considering Creep side and cheer leaders fan club is attempting to get the Guardians nerfed. I simply don't feel I can impact a raid as well as I used to or I feel I should be able to. Adjusting and trying the varried Tree Traits as right now switching from Red main with some blue or Yellow main with some Blue. As just finished upgrading my raid gear to 95. 4 Shining and 2 unyielding rage. Much better but still way squishing especially in sight of the Macroes Warg packs out in the Moors. Any constructive idea would be MOST welcomed.
    Simply put, don't trait red, go yellow or blue. Still, considering the state of the champ, yes it is one of the worst off freep classes. With that said, it is now more on par with the general creep than it has been in, well, ages. Right now Ettens is in shambles for a multitude of reasons though champs aren't a top priority there, and yes, there are certain classes and setups that are quite OP atm (yellow cappy anyone?)
    [SIZE=3][COLOR=#008000]If it moves, kill it - Then look for more things to kill[/COLOR][/SIZE]

  14. #14
    what i would like to see:

    second wind should be a general skill -> sudden defence should replace second wind in the skill tree ->
    glorius exchange from the yellow line bonus (why is this even there?) should replace sudden defence in the blue bonus

    also what is very wierd in my opinion is unbreakable
    its now just somekind of... bubble that is not a bubble but is somekind of temporary bonus moral which is pretty much a bubble... (gnarf)
    combined with the mechanic of Born for combat

    unbreakable would be far cooler if it work like the Warg bubbles and could be combined with the shockwave of sudden defence:
    mini bubble that renew every 10 seconds and explode with medium damage if it is destroyed ... (dayum)

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Fralin View Post
    Simply put, don't trait red, go yellow or blue. Still, considering the state of the champ, yes it is one of the worst off freep classes. With that said, it is now more on par with the general creep than it has been in, well, ages. Right now Ettens is in shambles for a multitude of reasons though champs aren't a top priority there, and yes, there are certain classes and setups that are quite OP atm (yellow cappy anyone?)
    Right now most raid leaders are asking for red or yellow. Though I paid for a extra slot to put, Full red rest blue, full yellow rest blue. A little red, 1 yellow and rest Blue mostly full. With a 63 point build.
    Last edited by Draithenz1971; Jan 08 2014 at 07:09 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/08207000000264409/01003/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]
    lvl 95 Champion / Rank 10 Arkenstone Server / Officer - Order of the Cresent Dragon / Kuznumshi lvl 95 Reaver / Rank 7 Arkenstone Server / Grunt of Tribe of Aracnophobia

  16. #16
    So, from U13 notes, all the work of LunisequiouS and other people, trying to improve the class, has ben ignored ?!
    It is pathetic.

 

 

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