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  1. #1
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    The Champion redesign has gone terribly awry; Turbine, please address our issues

    Skip down to the bottom for the TL;DR

    The Introduction

    It has been 6 weeks since the launch of Helms Deep, and in that time, it seems that the Champion class has been forgotten by the developers. The Champions, both in beta and live, have posted numerous issues, concerns, bugs, and suggestions and have not received a single response since B3 of beta. Champions are currently the only class that has yet to receive any response from a developer since Helms Deep launched regarding existing class issues, bugs, or design concerns. I am posting this here in the general discussion forum in hopes of gaining traction in the community and raising awareness with those at Turbine regarding issues that I believe Champions are currently facing. I assert that Champions in their current state, are the worst they’ve been since launch. I don’t know how many people reading this played a Champion prior to the Book 9 class revamp that came with Evendim, but I did, and the class has that same awful, unfinished feel to it that it did when the game launched. It is my hope that I can, below, explain the various issues that I believe are currently facing the Champion class.

    The Skills


    With Helms Deep, the Champion class saw a number of skills removed from their base skill set. While it’s understandable that some of them would be moved to specific trait lines, the volume of skills here is rather alarming. Before specializing, a champion has a mere fraction of his skills available. Below is a brief summary for the skills that were removed or changed from the Champion’s base skill set.

    Requires Berserker Specialization

    • Brutal Strikes – Requires minimum zero prerequisite points to unlock trait.
    • Remorseless Strikes – Set Skill
    • Ferocious Strikes – Requires minimum 15 prerequisite points to unlock trait.


    Requires Deadly Storm Specialization
    • Battle Frenzy – Requires zero points to unlock
    • Blade Storm – Set Skill
    • Rend –Set Skill
    • Raging Blades – Requires minimum 5 points to unlock.
    • Great Cleave – Requires minimum 15 points to unlock.
    • Battle Acuity – Requires minimum 15 points to unlock and prerequisite Great Cleave skill. Now a passive bonus activated with Great Cleave.
    • Exchange of Blows – Set Skill (also Set Skill in Martial Champion specialization as “Masochism.”)


    Requires Martial Champion Specialization

    • Second Wind – Requires minimum zero prerequisite points to unlock trait.
    • Sudden Defense – Set Skill
    • Adamant – Set Skill
    • Dire Need – Requires minimum 15 prerequisite points to unlock
    • Fervour, Ardour, Glory Stances – Removed. See below commentary


    Removed

    • Flurry of Blows – Added via traits. See notes below.
    • Seeking Blades – Partial skill functionality added via traits. See notes below.
    • Hedge
    • Red Haze –Passive fervour generation is now part of Battle Frenzy. Immediate fervour increase on enemy defeat is now a Set Trait in Berserker specialization.


    When looking at the sheer volume of skills that have become specialization dependent (or removed), it's a bit disheartening especially when compared to other classes like Guardians, Lore-masters, and Burglars. In total, Champions only retained 15 skills in their base skill sets, of which only 6 of them are DPS skills. Two are fervour builders (Wild Attack, Swift Strike), 3 fervour spenders (Feral Strikes, Merciful Strikes useable at 20% morale and below only, and Horn of Gondor), and one AoE that is neither a builder or spender (Blade Wall). The rest are utility skills, 2 self heals, an interrupt and a taunt (). I think that a couple of these skills can be added back to the Champion's base skill set (particularly looking at skills like Blade Storm or Rend, and Brutal Strikes.)

    Areas of Flawed Design

    Skills

    A number of those skills that were changed, moved into trait lines, or redesigned I feel were not done appropriately, or with adequate consideration to a consistent design philosophy for the class.

    Brutal Strikes – It really seems like poor design to make this skill a trait rather than base line. If you are a Champion using 2-handers, Feral Strikes is vastly inferior to Brutal Strikes because Feral Strikes only has two attacks whereas Brutal Strikes has three attacks. Therefore, if you prefer to use 2-handers, you’ll need to spend a point (or two if not specializing in Berserker) to pick up a single target skill that works with your build. If you utilize dual wield weapons, you don’t necessarily have to because the immaterial difference in damage versus Feral Strikes (as Feral Strikes has three attacks while dual wielding). Having these skills set up in this way, where one weapon-type is clearly at a disadvantage is poor design.

    Flurry of Blows– This skill was removed in lieu of trait line bonuses that give a similar effect (-attack speed duration), but there were changes made in the process and Berserker Champions come out worse for it. The Berserker tree has a 5 point trait that grants (at max rank) -10% attack duration which grants a portion of the old bonus Champions received. The rest comes from a Set Trait called Precise Strikes which grants +1 to fervour on crits, and -3% attack duration on Strike skill hits. It stacks up to 5 times (-15%) and lasts 8 seconds. This grants the other portion of Flurry and gives Champions up to -25% attack speed from traits. The problem with this implementation is that the duration is too short, and the buff does not tier down when it expires. If it hasn’t refreshed after 8 seconds, the buff falls off completely, and you lose the entire benefit. In the context of current content, it’s a horrible buff. This buff benefits Champions only in situations where the target is alive for an extended period of time and time on target is relatively high. Under the old skill, it was an “Always On” buff activated by entering Fervour stance. The tiering mechanic itself is a nerf and lengthens Champion “ramp up” time on DPS, and is very unreliable given how quickly it falls off, especially in Skirmish Raids, Epic Battles, and farm runs for things like Sambrog, Thadur, Bell of Dales ect.

    (Improved) Hedge – Removing this skill did not make any sense. It was highly valuable in preventing you from being repeatedly disarmed (a common occurrence when AoEing humanoid mobs), and the additional resistance and critical defense was always welcome. If you PvP, this is generally going to be an enormous nerf. Fortunately, most Reavers just spam Impale nowadays, so there’s a silver lining there I suppose.

    Seeking Blades – This skill was removed and the Berserker line was given a trait called Emboldened Blades to compensate. The original skill gave a guaranteed crit on your next Remorseless Strike, and then it gave a crit chance/crit damage buff to Remorseless for a short duration. The guaranteed crit has been removed, and the new trait grants a stacking buff that tiers up to 5 stacks and matches the original buff to crit chance and crit damage. Once you crit with Remorseless Strike, the buff is removed. The removal of Seeking Blades significantly hinders the Champion’s ability to produce any reliable burst DPS (which it was never known for in the way Hunters and RKs are regarded), and this new trait we have is very unpredictable. For 2-hand champions, it’s a significant nerf due to the loss of the guaranteed crit for large burst damage. As for dual wield champions, an offhand crit (which does approximately 40%-50% of the main-hand’s damage) will remove the buff altogether. This behavior serves to undermine the trait’s utility, and it creates negative synergy with traits such as Vicious Strikes. Vicious Strikes increases the critical strike chance of your “additional strikes” which for Remorseless Strikes is the weak offhand attack. If the mainhand attack fails to crit, a Champion is even more likely to remove the buff with the off-hand attack, which is obviously not desirable and not something Champions had to contend with under the old skill.

    Battle Frenzy – This skill was put in the first tier of the Deadly Storm line and was “enhanced” to give 1 fervour every 3 seconds for 45 seconds. This “enhancement” alone makes it probably the single most important trait to take in any build (in my opinion, anyway). Due to the removal of stances and the passive fervour generation they granted, along with the other fervour generating traits falling well short of providing Champions with enough fervour, this skill has become your new fervour stance. And because of this “enhancement,” the Battle Frenzy cooldown reduction legacy becomes mandatory in any DPS build. The cooldown for the skill is 1 minute, and with near/at max legacy, it is reduced to 40-45 seconds. Maximizing the legacy gives you the ability to keep the fervour generation buff up indefinitely. This is not a “tough choice” to make. To have adequate fervour, you need to invest a point in Battle Frenzy and in the legacy (a minor legacy at that).

    Improved Bracing Attack – This skill was reverted back to its generic version. The improved version granted an additional heal-over-time effect and also granted its healing effect (both the initial, and the heal-over-time) even if the attack missed. That important functionality was a huge boon to 2-hand champions since the skill only had one attack for them, and thus was more prone to missing, but all Champions enjoyed the change. Giving Champions the original version which has neither of these benefits is a pure nerf. Even the Martial trait line bonuses do not provide any of this functionality. It’s a step backward all around regardless of specialization.

    Second Wind – Another baseline skill that should not have been put into the trait trees. The removal of the stances and the change to how Champion ICPR works was not designed well (I’ll go into detail below), and as a result, Champion power consumption at the present time necessitates that the skill be included in any build.

    Fervour, Glory, and Ardour

    While technically the stances were removed, they are present (to a very limited extent) in the Champion trait lines via the first tier passive trait. Martial Champions gets Glory which reduces damage by 2% for each fervour point. Fervour is in the Berserker line, and it increases the damage by 5%, attack duration by 2%, and ICPR for each fervour point. As you have probably guessed, Ardour is in the Deadly Storm line, and it reduces all power costs by 5% per fervour point.

    The problem with this design is the negative synergy with other skills, traits, and the overall class design. Champions, with only 5 fervour points, don’t exactly have a lot of flexibility with regards to maintaining a pool of fervour. Our spenders range from 3 to 5 pips each, and because these are far and away our largest contributors to DPS, Champions spend fervour as they get it within the scope of their build and what skills are currently on cooldown. So here you have a class that is built around rapidly generating and consuming fervour, and then traits are added which discourage spending fervour. Again, this is an example of negative synergy in the class.

    Take for example Ardour and its synergy with Great Cleave in the Deadly Storm line. If I’ve just popped Great Cleave, all of my AoE attacks cost one less fervour point and 10% less power to execute. If I execute my skills as soon as they’re available (at 1 less pip), then I am losing out on a portion of the power reduction from the Ardour bonus compared to if I executed them as normal. If I wait and build one additional fervour pip, then I’ve delayed executing my high DPS skill and created a DPS loss which undermines the benefit Great Cleave’s skill pip reduction.

    Another example would be Sudden Defense and the Glory bonus. I take less damage for each pip I have. Sudden Defense is a skill that has its efficacy enhanced by the number of pips consumed. The skill, when used, will always consume all fervour. There’s no changing that behavior for the Champion. If I build up to 5 fervour to get the maximum bubble, the consumption of all fervour reduces my damage reduction from Glory. I get a bubble, but I lose damage reduction. It’s another example of poor synergy. Adamant works the same way. It reduces damage based on Fervour consumed. I can consume 5 pips to get the maximum damage reduction, but then lose damage reduction from Glory and partially negate the benefit I receive from Adamant.

    These stance bonuses in the trees simply do not work given current Champion design, and they’re a very poor substitute for what we had prior to the Helms Deep expansion.

    The Skill Trees

    The Deadly Storm (AoE DPS)

    Overall, I think most Champions are happy with the way this skill tree came out. The couple of items that I think that need to be addressed would be the Ardour bonus mechanic, the Finesse Increase trait, and the Born of Combat Set Skill. As I noted above, I believe the Ardour mechanic simply doesn’t work with the current design. Regarding Finesse, given that it is so prevalent on gear at the moment, I simply see no value in adding a trait for it as well. Born of Combat requires that you be struck by an enemy 10 times before activating. It’s reliable in solo or small group situations where you’re probably pulling aggro with AoE DPS, but in raid scenarios, it’s not active enough to justify being the final tier Set Skill for the Deadly Storm line.

    The Martial Champion (Tanking)

    It’s really hard to know where and how well off the tree is when considering the current state of tanking in the game. I’ve yet to see anyone advertise in GLFF for a Champion tank, and when considering the amount of DPS other classes are doing, I have serious doubts about this line’s ability to hold aggro. A portion of it is predicated on being attacked (via Masochism), and with only a single target taunt, I don’t see Champions supplanting Guardians or Wardens in any sort of content that would even consider needing a tank. I think it works fairly well as a secondary skill tree for PvP builds to complement Berserker or Deadly Storm for additional survivability and cooldowns.

    The tree itself also suffers from very poor itemization. Champion tank gear is rife with Parry rating, but with the sheer amount of Might on our gear, it’s very easy to cap Parry. More Evade rating on Champion tank gear would go a long ways in that regard. I’d also like to point out that the first two tiers need to be fleshed out a bit more. As it stands, it’s impossible to get to tier three of the skill tree without putting at least one point in the Vitality increase trait. Being forced to spend 1 point on +15 vitality is silly.

    The Berserker (Single Target DPS)

    As it stands now, the Berserker skill tree produces less single target DPS than the Deadly Storm line. That’s a massive issue. That has to be fixed, and it has to be fixed soon. When you look at the traits in the skill tree, two issues jump out that I think have led to this problem. The first is that the magnitude of the bonuses is far too low. +10% damage to “Additional Strikes” pales in comparison to the +100% blade wall damage, and +60% raging blades damage (for 3 points) that Deadly Storm has available. Bumping the magnitude on a few of these +damage traits would really go a long way. The other issue is the “Additional Strikes” caveat on a number of these traits. Why is the trait’s bonus only limited to the second and third (if applicable) strike of a skill? That effectively cuts the benefit of the trait. Adding 10% damage to only half or two-thirds of a skill essentially makes the trait bonus a mere 5% or 6.67% damage increase. It’s even less in cases such as Remorseless which 1.) has a weak “additional strike” and 2.) doesn’t even have an additional strike when wielding a 2-hander. It’s absolutely senseless to build traits like this.

    The other glaring issue with this line is the two abysmal traits in Hamstrung and Athletic. Hamstrung is flat out worthless in every facet of game play. There’s no content that warrants investing 5 points for a 4 second root on Hamstring. It’s not even useful in PvP because it accelerates diminishing returns as you repeatedly refresh Hamstring on your opponent. Athletic would have still been respectable as a PvP trait, but it was changed from reducing Sprint cooldown by 120 seconds to only reducing it by 30 seconds. Again, this is another unjustified nerf.

    And last but not least: Deadly Strikes. What an absolutely terrible DPS trait. The bleed does mediocre damage (has it ever been scaled properly?), and it does not tier up in the same fashion as Rend’s bleed. Another wasted talent that deserves zero points.

    Summary

    First off if you’ve made it this far, thank you for taking the time to read this post. I didn’t plan on writing so much, but the more I thought, the more I typed. I want to point out that all of these points preclude the bugs that are currently affecting various skills. These issues I raise were intended to point out the issues with the current Champion design. For additional information regarding bugs, please visit the Champion forum, as we’ve got a number of posts in there. If I've made a misstake, please feel free to let me know. It's 3:00AM here in Houston, and despite reading this post back to myself 3 times now, I'm sure there's something else I've missed here.

    Conceptually, I think there is a solid foundation to build on with the Champion lines. However, the trees and skills need a serious look over and the class needs to be reassessed for cohesiveness and overall design. As it stands, the Champion is a shell of it's former self (with exception for the AoE line), and it lost an incredible amount of it's identity in the Helms Deep expansion.

    TL;DR


    Champions have lots of problems.
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  2. #2
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    It's a good overall summary of issues; like everyone else (almost) I play Deadly Storm - not because I want to, but because the other options aren't just broken - they're "broken silly" and often make me chuckle. However, I'm not particularly happy with DS, either: it's devolved into a largely mindless "pound them and pound them again" clickfest without much strategic thinking involved.

    Good luck with a response.
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  3. #3
    Agreed it's a good summary of the problems with Champs at the moment. Glad to see you raised the issue of Hedge being removed, it really bugs me every time I get disarmed, please can we have it back as a common skill.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Once_of_Bree View Post
    Agreed it's a good summary of the problems with Champs at the moment. Glad to see you raised the issue of Hedge being removed, it really bugs me every time I get disarmed, please can we have it back as a common skill.
    I agree with everything.

    My kinmates and I were doing a few spars to compare crit damage, and I'm reasonably well spec'd, and I couldn't match a Captain's crits. It was embarassing really.
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  5. #5
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    OP = Well said!

    Am feeling very squishy and under power DPS in the moors that's for sure.
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  6. #6

    Lightbulb Solutions to the Champion Issues

    Great job describing in painstaking detail some of the glaring issues that currently plague the Champion class.

    In particular, the lack of developer response our class has received makes the whole situation much more embarrassing, as Turbine hasn't even acknowledge these issues, much less addressed them. I swear, every time I look at the Champion change list in patch notes and find it virtually empty I die a little inside.

    Inspired by your undertaking, I've attempted to compile a list of potential solutions to some of those issues. I'll be editing this post with suggestions from our fellow Champion players in this thread, so feel free to contribute and hopefully Jinjah (our class developer) will consider implementing some or most of these.

    If a developer does stumble upon this, here is a very simple list of solutions to implement that would go a long way to fixing most champion issues.


    --- ALL LINES ---

    Here are solutions to issues which affect all lines regardless of specialization:

    • Revert Bracing Attack to it's previous Riders of Rohan version with the Heal over Time component. Fight On has too long a cooldown to make up for it. Should heal even if the skill misses.

    • Give us back Hedge. Seriously. It's horrible to feel completely powerless when disarmed, specially since before we could shrug it off completely. Reintroduce Hedge as a specialization independent skill and have it remove disarms and actually prevent them for at least 15 seconds.

    • Bonuses for unconsumed fervour pips make zero sense whatsoever, given that as a Champion you want to spend your fervour pips as fast as possible to maximize damage. There is no incentive for not spending those if you're losing out on damage. A possible solution would be introducing a buff that tiers up the longer you go without spending any fervor that increases skill damage and critical chance, so you can either spend your fervor for some fast damage or wait a bit longer for a "charged attack" with more damage. The buff could go on a low cooldown, so you could only perform charged attacks, say, every 20s.

    • All three initial traits from all lines should be included by default (Second Wind, Brutal Strikes and Battle Frenzy). Replace those traits respectively by something along the lines of:
    - Improved Second Wind: Includes a small power over time component like the old second wind.
    - Improved Brutal Strikes: Gain one extra point of fervor on first strike crit.
    - Improved Battle Frenzy: Gain one extra point of fervor every time an enemy is defeated like the old Red Haze.

    • Fear Nothing is a legacy skill that has stuck around with us since the old days when removing Fear effects actually mattered, but on a 3 minute cooldown it doesn't get much use at all, even if it adds the occasional couple of fervor pips. Consider reducing the skill's cooldown to 40s and have it add a fervor point for each fear effect removed, up to 3, giving Champions additional fervor in instances that are riddled with Fear debuffs.

    --- BERSERKER (RED) LINE ---

    The main problem with this line is your damage output is fairly low, and the current traits are very unpredictable. Here are some solutions that could potentially make the Red line viable for DPS again:

    • Make bleeds do considerably more damage and tier up in the same fashion as Rend bleeds, so the trait is actually worth taking.

    • Make the extra strikes damage trait affect all strikes rather than just the last ones (otherwise it benefits heavily dual wield vs two handed builds, not to mention not synergizing well with Remorseless Strikes)

    • Revert sprint bonus cooldown reduction to 120s, 30s is not worth investing in.

    • Reintroduce Seeking Blades, add a trait that allows brutal strikes to reduce the cooldown of seeking blades by 5 seconds, like on old Hytbold Armour.

    • Attack speed buffs should never expire. If they've tiered up, they should stay up.

    • Emboldened Blades buff should tier down upon a crit rather than be consumed.

    • Maximizing Hedge root duration is useless given subsequent damage often breaks the root. Have it disarm your opponent for 5 seconds in addition to the rooting when maxed instead, that would actually be useful.


    --- DEADLY STORM (YELLOW) LINE ---

    Surprisingly, this line is mostly fine, although a few smaller issues remain:

    • Remove the finesse trait. It's downright useless. Consider replacing it with a flat +% chance of Blade Wall adding a fervor pip, in increments of 10% to 50%.

    • Born of Combat should activate when YOU hit 10 times, not when you're hit 10 times. Also should do more damage than it does for a skill with a long cooldown/usage restriction.


    --- MARTIAL CHAMPION (BLUE) LINE ---

    This line is heavily changed from pre-Helm's Deep experience, and not necessarily for the best. Here are some solutions to making it viable once again:

    • Remove the fervor cost of Bracing Attack when in blue line and lower the cooldown to 20s as it used to be. At the current 30s of cooldown, you can only use it twice before Dire Need is back (with legacy), leaving you with no other reliable means to heal yourself. Also consider making the skill immediate, I'm sure many Champions have died because Bracing Attack didn't proc the heal in time to save their lives.

    • Martial Champion is painfully slow without Flurry. The only time it feels good is when True Heroics is up, but that lasts not even 10s on a 5min cooldown. Consider having riposte proc a +15% attack speed buff on crits that lasts for 15s, so you if you have enough parry responses it could potentially persist throughout the fight.

    • Switch the location of the Vitality trait with the extra Second Wind power restore so that you're not forced to take any (useless) Vitality, and other lines can benefit from extra power from Second Wind (which, if you've been paying attention should be a general skill available to all lines by default), since the removal of stances has severely gimped our In-Combat Power Regeneration.


    --- MISCELLANEOUS ISSUES ---

    • Fix the fervor generation buff from the Helm's Deep Stalwart set removing Battle Frenzy. It actually makes your fervor generation worse. Consider having it sideline Battle Frenzy for the duration of the proc.

    • Crafted horns are now inexplicably consumable, supposedly to allow for one more Champion consumable item. However, with 15 minutes of cooldown, it's simply not worth using them anymore and most players skip these completely now. Consider lowering the cooldown of Crafted Horns considerably to make them actually useful. Three minutes, like our other consumable, the Fervour Potion, seems like a nice middle ground, and might make it worth it investing the time and resources to acquire them. Additionally the Extra Stun Duration Legacy only affects crafted horns at the moment, and with 15 minute cooldown on those, it's simply not worth taking. If the legacy also affected our general stun, Horn of Gondor, that would be a very good legacy in turn.
    Last edited by LunisequiouS; Jan 07 2014 at 12:13 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Very thorough summary by the OP, I'm impressed. The points I most agree with are the nerfing of the Berserker class verus the Deadly Storm, whch is really ST vs. AoE and much more so now with the changes. The fervour build for Berserker is flawed, even with Devastating which adds 2 fervour (and cool sound effect). You have much less control over fervour building than before - which is the essence of a Champion IMO, partcularly a Berserker. A Champ without fervour is a punching bag!

    I've tried both builds and have been using a Beserker build with Frenzy & Raging Blades with up to 20+ points in Deadly Storm - which means I didn't have the pts for Champ's duel until about lvl 90. I did the reverse with my other trait slot using a D. Storm build with many points spent in the Berserker line - against ST I don't see it being better, obviously with more than one it does allot better. I'm still experimenting and likely will start over completely as my knowledge and experience grows.

    The other change I really don't like is the attack duration modifications and as the OP states it hits the Berserker types hard. The attack duraction for a Berserker should be roughly equivalent to what it was before these changes, it is understandable if M. Champion and D. Storm have a longer duration as they did before with their respective stances. While I don't think the Champ is nerfed compared to the mobs today on live, what happens when (if) they fix the difficulty with the mobs (balancing) and don't address the concerns in this thread? Scale down the damage we do if necessary, but give us the builds that define our Champions! Not some mismash of traits that don't compliment each other. My biggest dissappointment with being in HD beta was seeing all the filler traits like Vitality/Might/Finesse which are not substitutes for actionable skills such as Second Wind, Hedge and other utility type skills. I've ignored them as much as possible until I need to spend 1-2 pts to reach another plateau for skills that are needed.

  8. #8
    Nice summary.

    Be warned however that the imbalance between single target DPS in red and yellow is more likely to be addressed by nerfing yellow than it is by boosting red.

    I suspect that DPS for all classes in for something of a smackdown - it may well turn out that CMP red line is one of the few that doesn't need a damage output nerf.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar View Post
    Nice summary.

    Be warned however that the imbalance between single target DPS in red and yellow is more likely to be addressed by nerfing yellow than it is by boosting red.

    I suspect that DPS for all classes in for something of a smackdown - it may well turn out that CMP red line is one of the few that doesn't need a damage output nerf.
    You're probably right; in which case the yellow DS line will probably end up just as "broken silly" as the other two. A straight output nerf is not what is needed - a rethinking of trait relationships, etc., is.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kathindi View Post
    You're probably right; in which case the yellow DS line will probably end up just as "broken silly" as the other two. A straight output nerf is not what is needed - a rethinking of trait relationships, etc., is.
    And the call will go out for free retraiting! I agree. I tried red line and found yellow line more effective with the added bonus of AOE. I see no reason to go red line right now when yellow is more effective. Once the lines are fixed i will see about red line. but right now, yellow is the way to go.
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  11. #11
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    Completely agree with the OP, and I like LunisequiouS's suggestions as well.

    Seriously, WTB Hedge back. Other melee classes can do *something* when disarmed (burgs - riddle/tricks; captains - vocal skills; guardians - shield skills; wardens - sh/fi and fi/sh gambits). Champs just sit there doing nothing. There was a reason we had Hedge in the first place. Please give it back. I'm honestly surprised and disappointed this made it out of the early stages of beta...

    I also think the removal of stances was an error. Granted right now there's no content challenging enough (or being run at all, regardless of difficulty...) to require a champ to step up and start tanking in mid-combat. But it happened often enough in years past - switch to glory and pick up the slack, particularly with a hybrid build back when there was such a thing. We should still be able to do that without the group having to wipe and switch trait specs for a second attempt.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    +1 invisible rep.

    I used to trait red, then I read something about yellow having more DPS. I retraited, and I never went back to red.
    Lack of Hedge is annoying.
    Horns being consumable is also annoying. I used one while questing, and was surprised how it was gone. Fine, I'll get more - all the ones I could find on AH are terribly overpriced, or the level is too high.
    Battle Frenzy, Brutal Strikes and Second Wind being trait-gated seems a bit silly to me.

    The tl;dr was well-made.
    [COLOR="#669966"][center][size=1]Mildford - R9 Hunter • Support - R7 LM
    The Storm Crusaders • Gladden[/size][/center][/COLOR]

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by LunisequiouS View Post
    ...
    • Switch the location of the Vitality trait with the extra Second Wind power restore so that you're not forced to take any (useless) Vitality, and other lines can benefit from extra power from Second Wind (which, if you've been paying attention should be a general skill available to all lines by default), since the removal of stances has severely gimped our In-Combat Power Regeneration.
    ...
    I think you and Asperity gave a lot of useful information to the dev. I hope he will listen to them and consider the excellent suggestions. I just want to point out that while the vitality trait is practically useless for a higher level champion it may be useful for one who has just started levelling one, so it may have its place in the trait tree.

  14. #14
    Unless I'm mistaken (haven't tried a low level champion since class revamp) the stat traits should all scale according to your level, thus making them invariably unattractive. If however, you do get +74 vitality at rank 5 at lower levels, I take this point back.
    [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/RqKkWdz.jpg[/IMG]

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by LunisequiouS View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken (haven't tried a low level champion since class revamp) the stat traits should all scale according to your level, thus making them invariably unattractive. If however, you do get +74 vitality at rank 5 at lower levels, I take this point back.
    My champion is under lvl 20 (18 I think, but not sure) - that is why I reacted - I'll check it when I got home and have time to start the game.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Westchester, NY
    Posts
    790
    Great posts! I'm just concerned about whether they are being read. Our class dev hasn't been to the champ forums for quite awhile.

    Also, I agree that a yellow line nerf is not the solution here. I really hope they don't take that route.

  17. #17
    Totally agree that champ is the red headed stepchild post HD. The OPness of the pre HD champ was jumped up and down on repeatedly.

    The single biggest issue was the separation of ST and AOE DPS, closely followed by the idiotic programming of red line that made single-target champs the equivalent of fighting a troll with a slapper fish. I'm also curious how blue line champs are supposed to tank when they have so few skills.

    It also means that in encounters where no AOE is required (e.g. Goro in SG, Balhest in OE) champs who have traited meaningfully (i.e. yellow) are totally unsuited for the job.
    105s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Brai (RK), Hrolfdan (MN), Aeldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rummbold (BG). Tinies - Rumbelina (MN), Aenghus (CP)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), ex-Snowbourn now Laurelin - A Noob for All Seasons

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    66
    Everything here is right and well, even done work for the devs with so many alternative fixes suggested by players.

    The problem, worse than the actual problems with the class though...

    Is that we are talking to air, much like the Rune-Keepers, have a dev who does not know what communication IS. Let alone action.

    /endrant
    [CENTER].[/CENTER]

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post
    It also means that in encounters where no AOE is required (e.g. Goro in SG, Balhest in OE) champs who have traited meaningfully (i.e. yellow) are totally unsuited for the job.
    At Goro, I made liberal use of Clobber

    Seriously though, I used Rend as much as I could before AOE would be a problem (get that bleed running, and armor reduction). After that, I focused on using Wild Attack, Clobber, and Merciful Strike. Feral and/or Brutal can be worked in as well. Reasonable damage, but not great. According to my group however, I wasn't needed for DPS at that point, but rather for Clobber.

    It is a sad time to be a Champ.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LunisequiouS View Post
    Unless I'm mistaken (haven't tried a low level champion since class revamp) the stat traits should all scale according to your level, thus making them invariably unattractive. If however, you do get +74 vitality at rank 5 at lower levels, I take this point back.
    I've checked my champion (which is lvl 17 by the way). You were right, at this level the vitality bonuses are significantly lower: 3,5,7,9 and 11 respectively. He has 1016 morale and 46 vitality at the moment but 1/3rd of his equipment is under lvl10 so it may somewhat bigger. +11 vitality means only 33 more morale so the increase is miniscule. Even more: at this level I could put only 1 point to the trait - had to unlock tier 2 first - so it is not even the 11 vitality bonus what I got, just the 3. My conclusion is that it is not worth to put points into this trait, either its values should be increased significantly or replaced with something more suitable to the tank line.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hajsza View Post
    I've checked my champion (which is lvl 17 by the way). You were right, at this level the vitality bonuses are significantly lower: 3,5,7,9 and 11 respectively. He has 1016 morale and 46 vitality at the moment but 1/3rd of his equipment is under lvl10 so it may somewhat bigger. +11 vitality means only 33 more morale so the increase is miniscule. Even more: at this level I could put only 1 point to the trait - had to unlock tier 2 first - so it is not even the 11 vitality bonus what I got, just the 3. My conclusion is that it is not worth to put points into this trait, either its values should be increased significantly or replaced with something more suitable to the tank line.
    My god how I miss the "old" champ already. These changes are such turnoff for me. I have problems just making myself log in to this. And yellow traited being the best ST DPS is just messed up. Turbine, what were you thinking? Or rather, were you thinking at all?

  22. #22
    I agree with all of this. My "SHING-SHING!" has turned into "pling-pling".

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,798
    Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels this way about the current state of Champions.
    Last edited by Asperity; Jan 07 2014 at 07:40 PM.
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  24. #24
    I can't stand the new champion.

    I can't speak to all playstyles, but my playstyle has been totally ruined by the revamp. I liked to play my champion as a dual-wielding single-target + aoe dps with the ability to off-tank surly mobs while in a group. The combat was fast-paced.

    Now, Remorseless Strike is gated behind the Berserker trait specialization, and most of the AoE attacks are gated behind the Deadly Storm tree and specialization. I cannot use both Remorseless Strike and Rend during the same fight. I liked to use Blade-wall as a fervour builder, but now this is impossible.

    The class has little ability to off tank while traited for dps now. We have one force taunt and no emergency heals. We cannot switch to our tanking stance in battle now.

    I think the problem is caused by the developers trying to make each trait line more specialized and by enforcing 3 unique trait lines on the class.

    Making each specialization more specialized--man that sounds stupid but that's what they did--is a design mistake. The champion class didn't need this. The champion's ability to off-tank while traited for dps was good. We liked it. Tanks liked it. Healers liked it. Maybe hunters didn't like it. (But who cares about hunters. Besides, you should solve hunter problems by working on the hunter class.)

    The other problem, 3 unique trait lines, is caused by a total lack of creativity and short-sighted slavishness to a decision made for the Moria expansion 5 years ago. The champion shouldn't have 3 separate trait lines, because the champion doesn't have 3 roles. The champion has 2 roles: tanking and dps. Segregating single-target dps from aoe dps is a bad decision. It makes no sense. It takes a good idea--to allow champions to weight their abilities toward single-target skills or AoE skills--and stretches it to the point of absurdity. This is the MMO equivalent of designing a car with only 2 gears, first and fifth; a bar that only serves 2 beers, Bud Light and Sierra Nevada Bigfoot; or a phone that can only make local calls or foreign calls. Where's the middle ground? We tolerated and liked 3 trait lines before HD because we could freely mix Red and Yellow traits to get the balance between AoE and ST dps. This new system replaces the openness and creativity of a hockey game with the rigidity of a Prussian parade.

    Tactical game play is a thing of the past. Before we had the ability to decide between single-target attacks and AoE attacks during a fight, to judge which would be more optimal for each scenario. We could pull mobs off the healer and live to continue the battle. We could help manage the group's aggro with both our Ire skills. We could Shing-Shing whenever we damn well pleased!

    The feel of combat is slow too. I don't understand what you did with Flurry. We have great DPS. I'm not complaining about DPS. The entire game's DPS system is a complete and utter mess right now. I'm talking about feel. It feels slow. Slow. Sluggish. It is boring. LotRO combat is boring. It is more boring than it was before HD. If it was slow and boring before HD, it is worse now.

    The new champion class isn't fun.
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. ~ Faramir

    Undo the U12 class changes. The trait trees were, are, and will always be a bad idea.
    Maedhric 100 Captain, Nunion 93 Champion, Taraviel 85 Minstrel, etc...

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    236
    I miss my dual wielding ST DPS monster *goes to cry in a corner*

    But yes hopefully they will use this feedback and atleast try and fix it!

    Benordis LvL 105 Champion - Beniso LvL 105 Minstrel - Benisia LvL 100 Burglar - Bengrit LvL 105 Rune-keeper - Beney LvL 105 Guardian

 

 
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