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  1. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    My guess is they've thought about how to monetize raid clusters, couldn't justify the foreseeable investment, and canceled them altogether.

    PvE and Cosmetics clearly make more money for them than a raid cluster or PvMP ever has.
    One thing they may not have considered is the possibility of the existence of a symbiotic (?) relationship between the two. As an (imperfect) analogy, think how people spend money on football. There are different levels of football and activities branching out from football. Now eliminate the professional teams. Many people participating in lower levels or connected activities may lose interest.

    In lotro, there is no point to stretching for every bonus (which is the fundamental purpose of the crafting system) unless there is a raid that requires it. The raid may not directly seem to make as much money, but perhaps it is a glue of sorts that the whole game requires.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadriver View Post
    One thing they may not have considered is the possibility of the existence of a symbiotic (?) relationship between the two. As an (imperfect) analogy, think how people spend money on football. There are different levels of football and activities branching out from football. Now eliminate the professional teams. Many people participating in lower levels or connected activities may lose interest.

    In lotro, there is no point to stretching for every bonus (which is the fundamental purpose of the crafting system) unless there is a raid that requires it. The raid may not directly seem to make as much money, but perhaps it is a glue of sorts that the whole game requires.
    I think he's onto something. Raiders don't just raid. They often have multiple characters even accounts. Because of this they may spend more on convenience items. they need maxed crafting and guilds to max their characters. they may get accelerators for alts etc. They need maxed virtues, so they need either VIP, a lot of zones via the store or have bought them. They tend to enjoy the moors too, this requires VIP for freeps. £££.

    good end game retains players for longer, longer people stay more money they spend. This is obvious when you consider VIP subscription but also works for premium players too: You don't spend money on the game if you've stopped playing and have left.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhoris_they_spider View Post
    So, no new instances/raids any time soon which probably means all of 2014.... Maybe time to move on for the old guard of dedicated raiders?
    Oh, why of course there's going to be NO new instances/raids in this game.

    Turbine is too busy catering to the cosmetic hunting shoppers who just bought their tickets for the latest music festival in Landroval....WINTERSTOCK!!!! WhoHoo!!!!!

    No really, the fashion show and Woodstock are WAY more important than providing awesome end game content for it's customers.

    It's a one way street today....

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...smetic-Weapons

    http://lotroartists.com/servers/us/l...terstock-2014/

    Oh happy joy!

    o.O

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linathrial View Post
    Oh, why of course there's going to be NO new instances/raids in this game.

    Turbine is too busy catering to the cosmetic hunting shoppers who just bought their tickets for the latest music festival in Landroval....WINTERSTOCK!!!! WhoHoo!!!!!

    No really, the fashion show and Woodstock are WAY more important than providing awesome end game content for it's customers.

    It's a one way street today....

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...smetic-Weapons

    http://lotroartists.com/servers/us/l...terstock-2014/

    Oh happy joy!

    o.O
    aren't they player run events?
    there's room for all of us, no matter how diverse our interests.

    I wouldn't ask that they exclusively made raids or 6 mans etc. and cancelled all future cosmetic items. Sadly it seems the opposite has occurred and indeed has been listened to....

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadriver View Post
    One thing they may not have considered is the possibility of the existence of a symbiotic (?) relationship between the two...In lotro, there is no point to stretching for every bonus (which is the fundamental purpose of the crafting system) unless there is a raid that requires it. The raid may not directly seem to make as much money, but perhaps it is a glue of sorts that the whole game requires.
    Yes, this. I've often wondered the same.

    Also, two related thoughts and bringing it all together...

    FIRST - Statistics can very easily be misread with periodic activities like PvE raiding. I will illustrate with wholly made-up numbers.

    Let's say Turbine has acted on the solid data that only 2% of LOTRO is about raiding. Players spend 98% of their time doing other stuff: crafting, soloing quests, standing around chatting, whatever. That says raiding is of miniscule importance to the game. No big loss if we cut it. HOWEVER, look behind the number....

    The average raider plays about 30 hours a week, and is in a raid on average 3 hours a week (this is imagining back when there was a true end-game, challenging raid). So if you isolated just the raiding player base, statistics would tell you that raiding is only 10% important to them, even though it's really their favorite activity and the one that keeps them coming back.

    On top of that, say regular raiders are only 20% of the game's population. That's going to dilute the raid activity data significantly. If 20% of the population spends 10% of their time raiding and the other 80% spend 0% of their time, that averages out at the population as a whole spending 2% of their time in raids each week. This is surely something we can cut out of the developmental budget when times get tight, right?

    Except you've now alienated 20% of your player base, because you misread the indicators.

    Again, these numbers are wholly invented, merely to illustrate the point. It is entirely possible Turbine's researchers may have been snared by a trap like this when some of these recent developmental decisions were made.

    SECOND - Segments of the game's population play different roles. Raiders (and PvPers) might be the trend-setting "lead" elements of the population who have an inordinate say in how the body as a whole reacts to change.

    Absolutely nothing but gut instinct and a lifetime of serving in leadership positions guiding these thoughts, but it seems to me that the LOTRO population is not just an amorphous, undifferentiated blob. There are more vocal elements, and quieter ones. More energetic segments, and more quiescent ones. In short, there are leaders and followers.

    Or, more accurately perhaps, trend-setters and trend-followers. The trend-setters are among the people chatting in GLFF the most, and/or tossing ideas into the forums. Some trolling, yes, but others offering insightful comments or strong opinions. Saying things that the silent majority can rally arond (or rally against). Giving voice to the otherwise silent but sentient body of people who play LOTRO. To be clear, not all people who speak frequently in the game's various communications media are trend-setters, but it is necessarily true that all who are trend-setters are communicating in some way. So they're in here.

    My guess is that raiders make up an inordinate share of the vocal set, and by extension have a higher chance of being trend-setters/leaders of the community as a whole. [I Would say the same of PvPers, except that crew tends toward a more in-your-face communication style that is less likely to rally crowds...not hating, I'm a PvPer too...just the nature of the beast]

    So, combining FIRST idea and SECOND idea, what happens? Turbine turns off raid development because "it's a small fraction of the game," in the process ripping out of the game the single activity that is most important to the 20% of the population that has an inordinate number of trend-setters. The game begins to get very bad press (much worse than the normal low-grade griping and moaning that comes with the business). People who are in game, raiders and non-raiding trend followers as well, start to hear about and talk about and migrate toward some other game, and population starts tapering off. Not only that, the bad press out on sites like IGN and Massively and etc. shift the migration of potential new players away as well, causing the normal influx of new players to slow.

    In short, a downward spiral develops or accelerates. All because someone turned off something that was only 2% of the game. [EDIT: or 0.2%, the numbers used for illustration could be way off, even by an order of magnitude, and the combination o FIRST thought and SECOND thought could still have significant impact on the game's direction]

    Anyway, it's just a theory that seems to fit what we've been seeing in recent months. Could be dead wrong.

    TL;DR: maybe raids were more important to LOTRO's player population than Turbine thought.
    Last edited by Angadan; Jan 17 2014 at 11:16 AM.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linathrial View Post
    Wait, what? Where? o.O

    There's room for the end game raiding players? In this game?

    Turbine must have missed that memo.

    Maybe their too busy making the latest cosmetic outfits or tuning the instruments for the band members at winterstock.

    End game instances/raids? Ain't nobody got time for dat!
    there should be , there was, there yet still could be. doesn't mean you have to stoop to the " only do what I want , denigrate all others " level.
    Last edited by Eldarian_Grace; Jan 17 2014 at 09:39 AM.

  7. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    <Mrfigglesworth receives mail> It's Galadrial! /gasp. It's titled: An Urgent Summons

    "Mrfigglesworth, please hasten at once to Lorien for an urgent meeting"


    <Mrfigglesworth maps to Lorien, goes up the White Tree, falls off, goes back up again and clicks on the golden ring above Galadrial's head.>

    "Mrfigglesworth, our scouts have revealed that X is in great peril! The enemy has occupied the Y and now threatens all of the free people! You must hasten to gather 11 of your most doughty companions and hasten to X where you must defeat the evil Z and his 5 lieutenants before all is lost. Hurry!"

    Pff, cause the story demands it? Bah.

    Oh, and besides if Turbine were so interested in story when it comes to instances they wouldn't have massacred their old instances that were so rooted in storytelling. Spamming GB ain't exactly good storytelling and I'm sure they all know it.
    The story doesn't demand it, but it sure supports big battles. I said I agree I'd rather have a good old fashioned raid, but I also understand where they're going with their explanation. It holds water. Whether or not you believe or trust their explanation is up to you. Either which way, we're still stuck with big battles for a year and most likely for many future expansions.

    And for how sob story you get when people mock you/call you names/etc, you sure like to lay on the drama thick unneccesarily. I ask you to give me one good scenario in which players are allowed to fight on the walls of helms deep over the course of the night in a traditional cluster. You know, kill trash, move to next trash, kill trash, move to next trash, kill boss.......new wing.


    To be honest the only reason people are whining about big battles is that they 1) come the same time freep revamps happen which caused a lot of heartache and 2) are so blasted easy a caveman could do it. If they really got big battles right from the start, as in making these things actually incredibly difficult with engaging gameplay, I for one would not have missed an instance cluster especially one as lackluster as erebor.
    Last edited by mrfigglesworth; Jan 17 2014 at 10:25 AM.

  8. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    To be honest the only reason people are whining about big battles is that they 1) come the same time freep revamps happen which caused a lot of heartache and 2) are so blasted easy a caveman could do it. If they really got big battles right from the start, as in making these things actually incredibly difficult with engaging gameplay, I for one would not have missed an instance cluster especially one as lackluster as erebor.
    Maybe, but they didnt, we get what we get, we cant make decisions based around what BBs could have been, we have to make them based on what they are. And people have done that.

  9. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    The story doesn't demand it, but it sure supports big battles. I said I agree I'd rather have a good old fashioned raid, but I also understand where they're going with their explanation. It holds water. Whether or not you believe or trust their explanation is up to you. Either which way, we're still stuck with big battles for a year and most likely for many future expansions.

    And for how sob story you get when people mock you/call you names/etc, you sure like to lay on the drama thick unneccesarily. I ask you to give me one good scenario in which players are allowed to fight on the walls of helms deep over the course of the night in a traditional cluster. You know, kill trash, move to next trash, kill trash, move to next trash, kill boss.......new wing.


    To be honest the only reason people are whining about big battles is that they 1) come the same time freep revamps happen which caused a lot of heartache and 2) are so blasted easy a caveman could do it. If they really got big battles right from the start, as in making these things actually incredibly difficult with engaging gameplay, I for one would not have missed an instance cluster especially one as lackluster as erebor.
    Demand doesn't equal support. If you think these wannabe skirmishes are a fair replacement for a raid then good for you. And speaking of wannabes i don't know who you are kid and don't care. You seem to think you know me and have a mad on for some reason even though I've never so much as heard of you. So at this point I'm just going to not respond to you. I feel like I'm being flamed by some dude's cat.
    Last edited by Snowlock; Jan 17 2014 at 11:30 AM.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  10. #135
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    Snowlock and MrFigglesworth, you're both letting emotion get the better of your otherwise insightful posts. You might want to forget the argument and focus on the ideas; I like hearing from both of you and would hate to see the thread shut down for flaming.

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by toadriver View Post
    The raid may not directly seem to make as much money, but perhaps it is a glue of sorts that the whole game requires.
    I think there is a lot of truth to this statement. HD has obviously not sold very well and I believe this is because of the distinct absence of endgame excitement or buzz.

  12. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    Demand doesn't equal support. If you think these wannabe skirmishes are a fair replacement for a raid then good for you. And speaking of wannabes i don't know who you are kid and don't care. You seem to think you know me and have a mad on for some reason even though I've never so much as heard of you. So at this point I'm just going to not respond to you. I feel like I'm being flamed by some dude's cat.
    I disagree on the demand. The story DEMANDS we participate in helms deep in some way. This is the great battle man! Does anyone here really think that the developers should have created an instance cluster INSTEAD OF developing a way to participate in helms deep? The reason they chose to create big battles was sound. The outcome was pathetic.

    Edit to stop the pointless bickering.
    Last edited by mrfigglesworth; Jan 17 2014 at 12:39 PM.

  13. #138
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    We tried our best to tell them earlier and they didn't listen and are still sticking to their guns. I'll highlight the points I made and MAKE SURE to point out where I was wrong before I point out where I was right. But first...

    Sapience you mention that far more of us get misty eyed over the Rift than actually liked it in the day...What numbers are you going off of again? Or does the argument you made against ALL the research and blatant numbers previously shown mean nothing now? Maybe you counted on enough people not still being here to call your bluff on that but...bad form.

    1. Class skill revamp was easier to get used too than I anticipated, still a turn off to a few.- I was pleasantly wrong on this point. Points are still buggy but that looks to be fixed with 12.2

    2. The scaled instances are face roll and no challenge. People dont just chain level toons to 95 and then sit on them...they look for something to do with them. Player disinterest and huge drop in numbers due to lack of content (global channel numbers down 55% from release on Vilya, though we did have a huge bump on release, thus reinforcing my point I made a few months ago...People dont tell you they are leaving or why for the most part, they just do.

    3. Big battles had me hooked, but then I completed them...on two toons (barring bugs on Hornburg and two other side quests) and then when I started with my third I was like...really? I'm pretty dedicated and have been here a while...many others not as dedicated nor near as invested have fallen by the wayside way before I did. I now havent ran a BB in 3 weeks and really dont think I will unless gold drop rates go up or theres a loot revamp. the 5th identical set earring i got from plat rewards did me in.

    In conclusion, HD grabbed me on release, more so than I expected it to. Point for you Turbine. But the staying power was exactly what I said it was...1st financial quarter 2014. By the End of March things are going to be bad around here (they are already trending) unless you guys drop the stance and pony up the content.
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  14. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by bobbylobs View Post
    Maybe, but they didnt, we get what we get, we cant make decisions based around what BBs could have been, we have to make them based on what they are. And people have done that.
    I wholeheartedly agree that we should judge the developers on the poor job they did, but I wasn't answering what I thought of big battles. I was responding to the commentary that people aren't believing Sapience's reasoning behind creating big battles instead of an instance cluster.

    They said they had to come up with a new way to tell the story of helms deep, and I believe them because I can't conceive how they could have pulled off a raid where we have to go fight trash mobs and an end boss while also actively participating in a full scale battle.

  15. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by PoeticNightmare View Post
    If that's the case, how do you explain the last raid cluster we got? What did our time in Rohan have to do with Erebor and Dale? There have been plenty of instance clusters that weren't part of where we currently were in the story. All of sudden, now it's so important to make sure that the epic dictates what type of instance content we get?
    I can only hypothesize but I can say for certain they chose a "cluster" over a big battle (if you would call it that) because there was no epic battle in east rohan, so no need for a big battle system, so they chose instances/raids.

    As for my hypothesis, the drive for any instance/raid at all was because of the movie the hobbit and making money from said movie.
    Last edited by mrfigglesworth; Jan 17 2014 at 01:19 PM.

  16. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I can only hypothesize but I can say for certain they chose a "cluster" over a big battle (if you would call it that) because there was no epic battle in east rohan, so no need for a big battle system, so they chose instances/raids.

    It could also be that the experience of trying to depict a large conflict such as the siege of Erebor using traditional 'raid' tools and methods showed them that it would be impossible to tell a story about the Battle of the Hornburg that actively and meaningfully engaged players in the battle by using only those traditional tools and methods.

    Thus, the need for new modes and orders - and the solution chosen was to combine RTS elements with RPG gameplay.

  17. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Ioffryd View Post
    It could also be that the experience of trying to depict a large conflict such as the siege of Erebor using traditional 'raid' tools and methods showed them that it would be impossible to tell a story about the Battle of the Hornburg that actively and meaningfully engaged players in the battle by using only those traditional tools and methods.

    Thus, the need for new modes and orders - and the solution chosen was to combine RTS elements with RPG gameplay.
    I don't understand what is different about this method. Sure it was cool to look over the wall and see the horde down there, but when you look closely, its just a bunch of dots. There's that spot in Dunland where you can see Wulf's Cleft from far away and everything is milling around. I don't think this is any different. Once you get past that, its just waves of six npcs that come endlessly who don't even aggro you and whose lieutenants have less complexity than even a skirmish boss, all tucked into a space smaller than any skirmish. What is big or Epic about this? I mean, you are so unnecessary to the battle on the wall, that you are pulled away from it 2 or 3 times and you're not even missed.

    And then, after you've beaten it in the epic, what happens, you go back out again and the wall is intact. I thought we were concerned about the demands of the story?? But after we fight the battle its like the battle didn't happen. At least they could've permanently changed HD after your first time through so it looked all busted up and burned out, like post-intro Archet. But they couldn't even be bothered to do that.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    I don't understand what is different about this method. Sure it was cool to look over the wall and see the horde down there, but when you look closely, its just a bunch of dots. There's that spot in Dunland where you can see Wulf's Cleft from far away and everything is milling around. I don't think this is any different. Once you get past that, its just waves of six npcs that come endlessly who don't even aggro you and whose lieutenants have less complexity than even a skirmish boss, all tucked into a space smaller than any skirmish. What is big or Epic about this? I mean, you are so unnecessary to the battle on the wall, that you are pulled away from it 2 or 3 times and you're not even missed.

    And then, after you've beaten it in the epic, what happens, you go back out again and the wall is intact. I thought we were concerned about the demands of the story?? But after we fight the battle its like the battle didn't happen. At least they could've permanently changed HD after your first time through so it looked all busted up and burned out, like post-intro Archet. But they couldn't even be bothered to do that.
    Congratulations. That was actually where they originally tested the tech to see how to do Epic Battles. They made sure we saw Wulf's Cleft during the RoI Beta. So, yeah, thanks for reminding me that they have been developing that tech since then. I had forgotten about that.

    But you never got a chance to fire a catapult or balista, set tripwires and traps, setup barricades, command soldiers, etc before this time. ALL that IS new. And i fail to see how people do NOT see why the mobs ignoring you is not helpful in these EBs. It means you can summon your goat, respec from Engineer to Officer, rez another player or summon a pet who died pretty much every 30 seconds.

    And, you apparently missed that you are time traveling during the battle of the Hornburg, which is what the click the sock.. err.. I mean the feedbags, table, sword barrel, and banner was all about. Since all the rest of the zone takes place before the battle for the next.. what.. 18 months? ish? We were ported back to the time before the battle, before the Fangorn Ents killed off all the Orcs. If we were left in that timeline after the battle, with nothing to kill, wouldnt you be even more bored, than with at least warbands to kill?

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    But you never got a chance to fire a catapult or balista, set tripwires and traps, setup barricades, command soldiers, etc before this time. ALL that IS new. And i fail to see how people do NOT see why the mobs ignoring you is not helpful in these EBs. It means you can summon your goat, respec from Engineer to Officer, rez another player or summon a pet who died pretty much every 30 seconds.

    And, you apparently missed that you are time traveling during the battle of the Hornburg, which is what the click the sock.. err.. I mean the feedbags, table, sword barrel, and banner was all about. Since all the rest of the zone takes place before the battle for the next.. what.. 18 months? ish? We were ported back to the time before the battle, before the Fangorn Ents killed off all the Orcs. If we were left in that timeline after the battle, with nothing to kill, wouldnt you be even more bored, than with at least warbands to kill?
    I never wanted to fire a catapult or ballista, set tripwires and traps, setup barricades, or do any of those things that I consider idiotic and boring. I'm a raid healer. Healing boxes? Banners? Yeah, I'm sure the boys in the Hornburg did that too, right? Sorry, not buying it. It's not lore appropriate, and I don't feel like the things I'm doing are in keeping with my minstrel. Epic battle? Epic fail in my opinion.

    It would've been much more interesting had they allowed a couple large orcs, perhaps one of the beasts and goblins scale the wall to become a boss with some adds and let us fight like a more traditional raid with the screaming hordes outside in what would then have been a completely awesome moment. You know, something where I can play the class I've loved for 85 levels and miss greatly. As it is I don't even bother any more. Boring. Two of my crafters made it to 95, came up to the point in the epic where big battles started, and I parked them for the rest of eternity because I don't want to go back in.

    While releasing Helms Deep there could've been instances and raids located in other areas that were released at the same time, perhaps as a flashback memory or dream sequence. After all there's precedence since we never really killed Durin's Bane but it was an amazing view from the tower and my heart was in my throat when I realized who we were facing. Definitely a fist-bump moment, devs. Please use more of THAT kind of imagination and give us something better. Frankly Erebor was a disappointment and this is just pathetic.
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  20. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowlock View Post
    I don't understand what is different about this method. Sure it was cool to look over the wall and see the horde down there, but when you look closely, its just a bunch of dots. There's that spot in Dunland where you can see Wulf's Cleft from far away and everything is milling around. I don't think this is any different. Once you get past that, its just waves of six npcs that come endlessly who don't even aggro you and whose lieutenants have less complexity than even a skirmish boss, all tucked into a space smaller than any skirmish. What is big or Epic about this? I mean, you are so unnecessary to the battle on the wall, that you are pulled away from it 2 or 3 times and you're not even missed.

    And then, after you've beaten it in the epic, what happens, you go back out again and the wall is intact. I thought we were concerned about the demands of the story?? But after we fight the battle its like the battle didn't happen. At least they could've permanently changed HD after your first time through so it looked all busted up and burned out, like post-intro Archet. But they couldn't even be bothered to do that.
    Can you please describe a scenario that a raid would occur on the walls of helms deep for me?

  21. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Congratulations. That was actually where they originally tested the tech to see how to do Epic Battles. They made sure we saw Wulf's Cleft during the RoI Beta. So, yeah, thanks for reminding me that they have been developing that tech since then. I had forgotten about that.

    But you never got a chance to fire a catapult or balista, set tripwires and traps, setup barricades, command soldiers, etc before this time. ALL that IS new.
    No, that's not true. I've been setting traps since SOA. Tripwires since MOM. Ballistas and directing soldiers since SOM. I'm sure I've dropped barricades too, but I can't put my finger on when. Catapults are new.


    And i fail to see how people do NOT see why the mobs ignoring you is not helpful in these EBs. It means you can summon your goat, respec from Engineer to Officer, rez another player or summon a pet who died pretty much every 30 seconds.
    Never said it wasn't helpful. I think its lame and worse, its counter-immersive. From what I've read about battles they are hectic, crazy, and fast. This isn't just a battle, its an EPIC battle. Feel that way? Doesn't for me.

    And, you apparently missed that you are time traveling during the battle of the Hornburg,
    No, I didn't. My question though is, if we're so concerned about story, why are the rules of time travel not in the story's best interest? One of the key elements of a good story is that the passage of its events have consequences. What is the consequence here if everything goes back to how it was? If you want to use time travel, doesn't it make more sense, if we're going to be repeating the battle, to travel back in time? Why are we travelling forward, jumping forward again, jumping forward 4 more times, and then jumping back to before where we started? Why don't we progress forward in time until resolution, then simply relive the events on repeat? Doesn't that make more sense?


    which is what the click the sock.. err.. I mean the feedbags, table, sword barrel, and banner was all about. Since all the rest of the zone takes place before the battle for the next.. what.. 18 months? ish? We were ported back to the time before the battle, before the Fangorn Ents killed off all the Orcs. If we were left in that timeline after the battle, with nothing to kill, wouldnt you be even more bored, than with at least warbands to kill?
    Since there's no story justification for the warbands beyond the fact that they exist, there is nothing to say that they couldn't still be happening after the fall of Isengard (which we've not curretnly seen btw). There are dwarves currently in moria, after all.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    Can you please describe a scenario that a raid would occur on the walls of helms deep for me?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    It would've been much more interesting had they allowed a couple large orcs, perhaps one of the beasts and goblins scale the wall to become a boss with some adds and let us fight like a more traditional raid with the screaming hordes outside in what would then have been a completely awesome moment. You know, something where I can play the class I've loved for 85 levels and miss greatly. As it is I don't even bother any more. Boring. Two of my crafters made it to 95, came up to the point in the epic where big battles started, and I parked them for the rest of eternity because I don't want to go back in.
    I already did, in the post right above yours frankly.

    To take it a step further, how fun would it be to go up on the wall, do an opening wave with the NPCs, have one of their commanders call out that there was an attack on the gate or wherever we go for the side quest below the wall, and either the NPCs could depart (leaving us to have a raid with the defenders scaling the wall) or we could depart and find a really large whatever-your-fancy appear with interesting adds and mechanics and we could raid below the wall.

    And if I could come up with that in a few minutes, why can't the devs come up with something interesting when it's their job? It didn't have to be exclusive to big battles, it could've been big battles (completely accessible to all) and a 12 man raid with tiers (completely accessible to all at different challenge levels).
    [CENTER]I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
    ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
    GLADDEN SERVER
    Moochy, 100 Minstrel R10 ~ Barloren, 100 LM R5 ~ Teelara, 100 Cappy ~ The Storm Crusaders[/CENTER]

  23. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    I already did, in the post right above yours frankly.

    To take it a step further, how fun would it be to go up on the wall, do an opening wave with the NPCs, have one of their commanders call out that there was an attack on the gate or wherever we go for the side quest below the wall, and either the NPCs could depart (leaving us to have a raid with the defenders scaling the wall) or we could depart and find a really large whatever-your-fancy appear with interesting adds and mechanics and we could raid below the wall.

    And if I could come up with that in a few minutes, why can't the devs come up with something interesting when it's their job? It didn't have to be exclusive to big battles, it could've been big battles (completely accessible to all) and a 12 man raid with tiers (completely accessible to all at different challenge levels).
    Or, if the story demands a level of quality in experience that you can't suitably deliver, then you don't. If that really is their concern, story, then the best way to have told that was session play. But had they gone that way, then they would've had to come up with some other endgame and also deal with the detractors against session play, of which there are many. So now all of the sudden, story isn't as important, is it? And if it's not, then, DON'T USE IT AS AN EXCUSE THAT IT IS.
    Phrasing! Doesn't anybody do phrasing anymore?

  24. #149
    In my opinion, there is one most important reason for implementing EBs and it has nothing to do with 'design decisions' and 'story telling'. EBs are cheaper and faster to make than a Classic IC (that would need to be tweaked for solo mode as well, in this case).
    Oh, of course there is the other incredibly important reason - We must make a new mechanic with every expansion. Makes you doubt whether the world will end if they don't...
    So, 1 bullet --> 2 kills. Plus a bonus - all of the content is released on time (bordering to impossible if EBs required the effort of an IC, even if a fake one like the last).

    The battle can't be properly represented with the standard IC tools and/or in ''Wulf's Cleft mode''...
    The current representation is so much different and gives you a great feeling of scale and epicness...

    Come on, guys. I mean, come on.

  25. #150
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    211
    I find this whole situation rather interesting. Like a train wreck, it's going to be hard to look away. In my humble opinion, they're digging their own grave with these decisions. You watch, someone at Turbine will write a book about how to kill an MMO. Feature chapters on:
    •Do not support PvP
    •Release unpolished updates
    •Allow bugs to fester for years and years.
    •Do not support those most enthusiastic about the game
    •Dumb content down to toddler level difficulty
    •Do not make loot quality consistent with the difficulty of the content.
    •Use limited resources to create gimmicky festivals and other fluff content
    •Divert resources away from the game to other destined-to-fail projects
    •Do not create real, quality, end-game-content
    •Make massive changes to the classes for the reason of allowing devs to create more interesting and challenging content, and then have no plans to make that content
    •etc etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Frieja View Post
    I've finally accepted the fact that I need to find a new MMO. It's really too bad that there are no other Middle-earth MMOs.
    Likewise.

    I have two VIP accounts, with each one having purchased every expansion, and hundreds of dollars of "TP". I've cancelled these accounts this week, and will not purchase another thing from Turbine while they continue down this path.

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignBlade View Post
    I can confirm that Elendilmir is also pretty much dead already
    Double confirmed.

 

 
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