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  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Before this takes on a life of its own. No.

    I want to clarify something that people have conflated with my comment. I did not say no new content. I said no new raids/instance cluster. Update 13 is in the works and contains new content and a pretty good start on some of the things Kate mentioned in her letter.

    To be more clear, raids are a type of content. They are not the only type of content.
    if you consider housing revamp content then lotro really has became a joke not to mention the next big update is not tell march that is pretty bad you all really need a bigger team if this is the best you can do

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen1981 View Post
    if you consider housing revamp content then lotro really has became a joke not to mention the next big update is not tell march that is pretty bad you all really need a bigger team if this is the best you can do
    I hate the lack of any anticipated raid/instances as much as many others do, but this is being a bit unfair. We are apparently going to see some new solo/landscape content, real content with new quests and probably much of what goes with a new zone (new landscape, rep factions, unique rewards, etc). They've mentioned another segment of Fangorn ... something to do with Paths of the Dead ... a sliver of Gondor ... and something involving the Dead Marshes on the other side of the Anduin. That's four builds of "content" that go beyond hanging a new picture on the wall of your house.

    It's not group content, so I feel your pain and share it, but it's not fair to say that it's all just festivals and housing upgrades, either. Weakens your argument to ignore what is coming while arguing for what isn't.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen1981 View Post
    ...you all really need a bigger team if this is the best you can do
    As for getting a bigger team, I'm sure everyone at Turbine would LOVE this. You send them the money, and they'll get to hiring. Last time I was in the hiring business, the going rate was about $100,000 for one lower-end business professional for a year (the person's salary is not even half that...the majority is the taxes and insurance and benefits like medical/dental, and training and contingency set-asides, and on and on). Probably more up in the Boston area. So send them a cool million, and they'll add a half dozen new folks to the team, happily. Don't forget to keep sending each year after that if you want those new folks to stay on.

    In short, having the people to do all this work you demand is hugely expensive, and all us players are (apparently) not paying enough for a robust work force, these days.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Before this takes on a life of its own. No.

    I want to clarify something that people have conflated with my comment. I did not say no new content. I said no new raids/instance cluster. Update 13 is in the works and contains new content and a pretty good start on some of the things Kate mentioned in her letter.

    To be more clear, raids are a type of content. They are not the only type of content.
    Sapience, you know that by "content" people mean endgame content. As it is, with what should have been a HUGE expansion, this game has none. Big Battles are a joke and even then you're only getting decent jewelry from them.

    Releasing thin storyline "content" months apart, that can be completed within a few hours, is hardly the endgame that most of us are looking for.

  5. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    As for getting a bigger team, I'm sure everyone at Turbine would LOVE this. You send them the money, and they'll get to hiring. Last time I was in the hiring business, the going rate was about $100,000 for one lower-end business professional for a year (the person's salary is not even half that...the majority is the taxes and insurance and benefits like medical/dental, and training and contingency set-asides, and on and on). Probably more up in the Boston area. So send them a cool million, and they'll add a half dozen new folks to the team, happily. Don't forget to keep sending each year after that if you want those new folks to stay on.

    In short, having the people to do all this work you demand is hugely expensive, and all us players are (apparently) not paying enough for a robust work force, these days.
    my point with this is by time this patch comes out it will be 4 months since helms deep came out and you will be lucky if people are still around i know i have a lot of friend who lost movitation to play lotro cause of what they did to

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    In short, having the people to do all this work you demand is hugely expensive, and all us players are (apparently) not paying enough for a robust work force, these days.
    Or we are, but LotRO's development resources are being diverted elsewhere...

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen1981 View Post
    my point with this is by time this patch comes out it will be 4 months since helms deep came out and you will be lucky if people are still around i know i have a lot of friend who lost movitation to play lotro cause of what they did to
    So you're saying what many others have already said over the past few months: the game is on a downward spiral. Some players wander away, income goes down for Turbine, so they have to cut costs a bit, resulting in less new content, so more players wander away, income goes down more, they cut costs more, new content slows to a trickle, so more players wander away, income goes down more....

    Yeah, it certainly looks like you're right. Tell Turbine a way to break out of that cycle and I'm sure they'd appreciate it. Going F2P broke them out of the cycle (for a while, at least) a few years back. Give them some new way to recover. Otherwise, the game continues to cycle down to where it's in "maintenance mode" (very thin workforce to deal mostly just with issues, no new content, limited support, just keeping the lights on for a steady trickle of income from a reduced player base). At least, that's how it looks to those of us outside Turbine HQ.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD View Post
    Or we are, but LotRO's development resources are being diverted elsewhere...
    I don't think so. Any company performs periodic cost/benefit analyses particular to each of their projects. If LOTRO were still a cash cow, and analysis showed pouring money into development would continue to result in strong in-flows, Turbine would keep the LOTRO team strong, and hire from elsewhere for Infinite Crisis or other projects. The shifting of work force from LOTRO to IC/other only happens because cost/benefit says LOTRO isn't worth keeping that amount of effort on. In other words, there's not a strong enough paying player base to justify the continued development at previous-year levels.

  9. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by q945 View Post
    The big problem I see with BB's is that they can't easily extend them in future.
    The problem with Turbine is over the years they brought a lot of interesting new ideas and features like LI's , skirmishes, draigoch-conjunction combat, hobbies (err...one hobby) , Lothlorien battle...etc and then, they never reviewed or extended/improved/expanded this extras---which makes me quite sad. Focussing manpower and budget on another MOBA like Infinite Crisis is.... (there are already very successfull games like LoL, Dota2, etc..: IC is nowhere not able to compete with these giants) I just don't get it.
    Taking away group content from a MMO and saying "that's just one aspect of content" amazes me. Don't get me wrong , there should be a bit for every kind of playstyle. the only playstyle we have right now is leveling solo your alts to 95 and hope for the future. A MMO should be about interacting with other people (not just chatting or trading, also fighting side by side) .

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrex View Post
    The problem with Turbine is over the years they brought a lot of interesting new ideas and features...then...never reviewed or extended/improved/expanded this extras....
    I agree entirely. The turnover in that building must be dizzying, they've been so poor at any type of developmental continuity. 100% a leadership issue, BTW. Developers will be that way, creatively flitting from good idea to good idea, if not harnessed and guided coherently in a common direction over time. The leaders have not (apparently) provided the needed continuity of direction. That screams of musical chairs in management positions at all levels.

  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Before this takes on a life of its own. No.

    I want to clarify something that people have conflated with my comment. I did not say no new content. I said no new raids/instance cluster. Update 13 is in the works and contains new content and a pretty good start on some of the things Kate mentioned in her letter.

    To be more clear, raids are a type of content. They are not the only type of content.
    Thanks Sapience for confirming that there will be no new instances cluster for 2014.
    Now, i would suggest for Turbine team to start looking for a new job beacuse that decition its the end of LOTRO.

    Let me explain why once again...
    When a player get a new game, hes exited and everything is new for him, hes goal is to "complete" the game, were in this kind of game means level up to Cap level. Once hes on Cap level should be a "game over, theres nothing more to do", and how you solve that? Create End game content that keeps cap level players playing the game.
    Your right, theres ton of content, but wich of those is more efficent?

    Lets see some examples:
    Festivals, Housing, Customs, Vault, etc => That is NOT end game content, those are minor tools for players that wont affect if a player will stay or not, they are details but not the main plate... A game with those but with out end game content means 2 words => GAME OVER

    New regions => This one is tricky, depends how is applied, and there are 2 ways.
    1) When is realesed by its own
    2) When is realesed with an instance cluster associated

    A example for both,
    1) Wildermore => Useless amount of quest that dosent determine a difference if a player complete that region or not, boring and absolutly no point to do it.
    2) Enedwaith => This region was launched with In There Abscense Instance Cluster, and only thinking it was realesed with an instance cluster mean players that were cap by that time complete the region beacuse it had some relation with the cluster. Worthy to play it.

    Instance Cluster by its own => This is End game content, but realese it with no quest line means it will be burn by players WAY faster. For example => Erebor Raid's, took 1 month to have T2C complete in 2 of the 3 raids...

    Skirm's and Big Battles => Yes, this is end game content but it dont last more then 2 weeks before you can complete it in "challenge mode", way to easy and players wont be farming this stuff for much longer. Useful for the intermate time until a real cluster is realesed.

    Scale old raids/cluster => Some people will like this othrs not, might be useful to run those instance you really like on level. BUT when its scaled properly...
    Also this scaled clusters wont last as long as a new cluster for obvius reasons...

    Summary of all, if want a suggestion of how to keep players playing a game give them something to play with that can keep them with that exitement of "i have to beat this", so from that list the order from top to bottom of content that will achive that goal is:

    1) New Regions + a Classic Instance cluster with a proper 12 man multiple boss raid...
    2) Instance Cluster by its own
    3) New Skirm's / Big batles
    4) New regions by its own

    Everything else should be done at same time with those mayor goals, Bug fix, housing, festivals, vault, and all that its not an excuse. Should ALWAYs be done, but as history goes with this game its never done, reason NOW there are so many bug's, unbalenced content, broken things, etc.. that made the game be in easy mode for everything were the only challeges are 2
    1) If the random loot system will drop what you want => Absurb, nothing to do...you will get your 26th Hardend wrist of..
    2) If you can actually finish or complete the instance before it bugs...

    I understand that you guys wanted to improve the game with a new class revamp, BUT if you are going to do that make sure you revamp everything with it or will end as its now, 1 skill 1 kill, Easy mode! Players soloing T3 skirm raids, 3-6 mans, etc..
    And if you dont plan to do that then you need new content that MUST have certain level of challenge, other wise wont last more then a week... like BB's, took 1-2 weeks until players had it on platinium.

    Also, a end game content that is normally understamated => Ettenmoors
    Sorry if im selfish, but many people say LOTRO is not a PvP game thats why Ettenmoors dont have focus of Turbines team, but wait a second... Arent only VIP players able to join Moors? YES, then as we pay for it we already ask, cry, scream, for a revamp on it and nothing, things only go WORSE.

    In the end, if you really want to save LOTRO then stop making bad decitions, and refocus their goals for this year.
    Turbine MUST realese a new instance cluster that can EASLY realeted to one of the new areas to save the game,
    The game MUST be revamped or the classes revamp must be NERFED to make the game challege,
    End with the Free of effort loot policie and the random loot system, great ideas had been said and all of them from past systems used on the golden era of LOTRO...
    Again, by making flying housing or a zebra mount wont make players playing this game, the clock it running and you guys running out of time.

  12. #87
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    I understand that you guys are upset at no end-game plan for LotRO, and apparently less developer resources devoted to this game, and yes, that warrants a little venting.

    Turbine is in business to make money, if raids don't make them money, they have two choices:

    A. don't make raids / instance clusters
    B. Monetize Raids / Instance clusters differently.

    My guess is they've thought about how to monetize raid clusters, couldn't justify the foreseeable investment, and canceled them altogether.

    PvE and Cosmetics clearly make more money for them than a raid cluster or PvMP ever has.
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by devilhand View Post
    A example for both,
    1) Wildermore => Useless amount of quest that dosent determine a difference if a player complete that region or not, boring and absolutly no point to do it.
    2) Enedwaith => This region was launched with In There Abscense Instance Cluster, and only thinking it was realesed with an instance cluster mean players that were cap by that time complete the region beacuse it had some relation with the cluster. Worthy to play it.
    Let me stop you right there. I'm not going to argue with anything else you've said, but this here is wrong. ITA was released a while after Enedwaith. Enedwaith was released with F2P. ITA came at least six months later, IIRC it was in the last content update before the update that came when ROI was released.
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    "I want to stay up and get more work done, but I don't want to remember any of it."

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    I don't think so. Any company performs periodic cost/benefit analyses particular to each of their projects. If LOTRO were still a cash cow, and analysis showed pouring money into development would continue to result in strong in-flows, Turbine would keep the LOTRO team strong, and hire from elsewhere for Infinite Crisis or other projects. The shifting of work force from LOTRO to IC/other only happens because cost/benefit says LOTRO isn't worth keeping that amount of effort on. In other words, there's not a strong enough paying player base to justify the continued development at previous-year levels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    I agree entirely. The turnover in that building must be dizzying, they've been so poor at any type of developmental continuity. 100% a leadership issue, BTW. Developers will be that way, creatively flitting from good idea to good idea, if not harnessed and guided coherently in a common direction over time. The leaders have not (apparently) provided the needed continuity of direction. That screams of musical chairs in management positions at all levels.

    Not.. exactly. A SMART company takes people they have trained in their procedures, promotes them to positions of oversite on a new project and lets the people they left in place train the new guys in company procedure.

    The flaw we can not miss from a player perspective? That the new people do not continue the projects from their predecessors, mentioned in another post above, instead revamping stuff entirely, some of it for good, but others for bad. Then we have class developers (Remember at one time Turbine said they had eliminated class devs and now they say they have class devs again?).. Anyway, then we have class devs asking "What the heck is this skill for?" So management not only is not keeping the focus on projects under development, they are not consistently training the replacements to pick up where the last guy left off.

    Annnnd.. Now, you guys can facepalm me..

    Because I am going to defend the concept of Big Battles. You guys do know that after this come the battles at Gondor right? So the tech needed to be developed for those stories also. I actually really do see that.

    Now, if we did not have bug riddled BB instances, spitting out standardized loot that became the hallmark of HD, making repeats of the BB/Skirm raid/Classic Raid instances worthless, except, of course that the items are BOA, so you cannot even benefit your alts meaning you have to run thru and HOPE that the same thing that dropped when you were on your LM drops for your warden.

    Never mind that all the cloaks look the same, because, heck you can still cosmetically equip the Draigoth cloak. Oh, yeah, except it bugged out each time you have tried it to get your stuff to make your cloak after your kin burned out on it bugging out 7 times out of 10..

    Sigh... Of course, this whole thread of posts also is spitting in the wind, as I see more reaction from slamming my fist into a concrete wall. Not like anything will change.

    (Edited to apologize to any developers/Turbine employees who are actually as frustrated at the player reaction and/or lack of commitment they see in the company. Been there and done that. Was happy when the company was bought out.)
    Last edited by Darlgon; Jan 15 2014 at 09:45 PM.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Sigh... Of course, this whole thread of posts also is spitting in the wind, as I see more reaction from slamming my fist into a concrete wall. Not like anything will change.
    Sure is starting to feel that way.

  16. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Before this takes on a life of its own. No.

    I want to clarify something that people have conflated with my comment. I did not say no new content. I said no new raids/instance cluster. Update 13 is in the works and contains new content and a pretty good start on some of the things Kate mentioned in her letter.

    To be more clear, raids are a type of content. They are not the only type of content.

    There we have it.. Official and finally a direct quote on the official forums. "no new raids/instance cluster"

    An end of the era for me and my entire Kinship. Very sad that the guts have been stripped out of another MMO

    Even more sad that the only hope in the foreseeable future appears to be Everquest Next... Lets hope Sony can recapture the feel of the original OLD school Everquest..
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    To be more clear, raids are a type of content. They are not the only type of content.
    Well now we know what we won't get - not sure if that's the perfect didactical way to make kids happy . What Kate Paiz did mention was about some new regions. That's gonna be a few evenings of play time. After that: poof, nothing left to do that's fun. More Epic Battles? Yeah, I can do that with my level 10 toon. Who knows, maybe there's gonna be something that keeps us logging in again and again. But if it's not instance clusters, what could it possibly be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Leixy View Post
    I understand that you guys are upset at no end-game plan for LotRO, and apparently less developer resources devoted to this game, and yes, that warrants a little venting.

    Turbine is in business to make money, if raids don't make them money, they have two choices:

    A. don't make raids / instance clusters
    B. Monetize Raids / Instance clusters differently.

    My guess is they've thought about how to monetize raid clusters, couldn't justify the foreseeable investment, and canceled them altogether.

    PvE and Cosmetics clearly make more money for them than a raid cluster or PvMP ever has.
    Naw, you know, instance clusters just don't fit into the storyline as planned.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Not.. exactly. A SMART company takes people they have trained in their procedures, promotes them to positions of oversite on a new project and lets the people they left in place train the new guys in company procedure.

    The flaw we can not miss from a player perspective? That the new people do not continue the projects from their predecessors, mentioned in another post above, instead revamping stuff entirely, some of it for good, but others for bad. Then we have class developers (Remember at one time Turbine said they had eliminated class devs and now they say they have class devs again?).. Anyway, then we have class devs asking "What the heck is this skill for?" So management not only is not keeping the focus on projects under development, they are not consistently training the replacements to pick up where the last guy left off.
    I think you're right, that's ONE way to offset the loss of continuity that comes with frequent turnover in management positions. There are many others, as well. Turbine seems not to have been very good at any of them.

    p.s. I think you meant to quote and respond to post # 87, which is about leadership changes and discontinuity of effort inside LOTRO. You quoted post # 85, which is about LOTRO vs IC/other projects. Made it a bit hard to pick up the context of your response, at first.
    Last edited by Angadan; Jan 15 2014 at 05:52 PM.

  19. #94
    We’ve heard a lot of you suggest we take a break from the annual expansion cycle, and we agree!
    I can't seem to wrap my brain around this statement, it refuses to accept it. Did a large group of players actually say this or was it the turbine employees?
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  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydisme View Post
    I can't seem to wrap my brain around this statement, it refuses to accept it. Did a large group of players actually say this or was it the turbine employees?
    I honestly think that, if you look hard enough (in these forums, in 3rd party site comment sections, etc), you can find "a lot" of people saying just about anything you'd like to quote. Turbine seem to cherry pick from that whatever they intend to do anyway, so they can claim credit for listening to their fan base. A bit misleading to make it look like they took a statistically valid survey of the LOTRO player base and found out this was the most desired direction.
    Last edited by Angadan; Jan 15 2014 at 06:14 PM.

  21. #96
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    Please explain the changes to the nature of the story in this particular expansion that has obviated the need of an instance cluster in comparison to every other previous expansion and the launch pack before that. A cynical voice whispers in my ear that this explanation was drawn up in a wannabe marketing meeting and I'd really rather believe there's a better more legitimate explanation.

  22. #97
    For the sake of all that are still hoping for a miracle (new instance cluster and a new raid that can compete in same level of quality as old BG or OD) PLEASE Turbine make it happen SOON. Otherwise this game's going to die in a painfully slow and tormented death. It's already happening and with the news you're giving us it will contine to do so. In a while there's hardly anyone that's going to be left logging in at least every day.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anárion_Ancalimë View Post
    For the sake of all that are still hoping for a miracle (new instance cluster and a new raid that can compete in same level of quality as old BG or OD) PLEASE Turbine make it happen SOON. Otherwise this game's going to die in a painfully slow and tormented death. It's already happening and with the news you're giving us it will contine to do so. In a while there's hardly anyone that's going to be left logging in at least every day.
    At this point, Turbine literally can not make it happen any time soon. By letting slip there is no raid or instance cluster in development, Sapience also confirmed that the soonest we could possibly see one would be in 2015, and maybe in the latter half of that year. Why? Because the time it takes to develop a raid/instance cluster is (according to previous Turbine dev comments) 12-18 months. Put a new idea into the pipeline on 15 January 2014, and you won't be able to put it into the game for play until January-July 2015.

    That is what makes Sapience's (apparently off-the-cuff) comment the other day while running a hobbit to Isengard so shocking to the player base. See, before we knew that "Helm's Deep expansion would include no traditional style raid or instance cluster." But that only meant there wasn't one coming out when HD shipped, last fall. That didn't mean we might not see one in January, or March, or May. But now, with Sapience' latest revelation, we know there's nothing coming for at least a year. So the pitchforks and tar come out in the forums.


    EDIT and p.s. Could Turbine "crash the CPM" and develop/introduce a new raid or instance cluster faster than they normally do? Of course. But there's a price to pay for that. A somewhat famous business truism goes, "cheap, fast, or good -- pick any two." Which is shorthand for, you can keep costs down on a project, or speed the project up, or have the project be high quality...and you can even do two of the three...but the aspect you do NOT choose will suffer badlly as a result. Since funds are apparently very tight for Turbine these days, "cheap" is a necessity. If we add "fast" as well...see the bill-payer? A cheap & fast raid/cluster is going to be a relative piece of trash. Not sure that's the answer, either. At this point, LOTRO seems stuck in a slow downward spiral.
    Last edited by Angadan; Jan 15 2014 at 06:40 PM.

  24. #99
    I agree that my post sounded like a prayer, although that news really hit me hard tbh.... I have been in this game for 5 years and I hate to see it where it is now, it saddens me. Im also helping leading a once very succesfull raiding kin thats all but dead now, people just aren't interested in faceroll easy scaled raids we have atm and BB's. I remember when we had 2 pages online at least around 7pm in the evening. Now it's a miracle if we get to having 10 people online..... Turbine should see it by now that raids and other challenging content makes people log on and play. That gives people reason to stay and play, because if raids are challenging enough people will always come back for more. But I also see your point. Right now we'll have to accept the fact that we won't see anything in shape or form of raids this year.

  25. #100
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    I am with you 100% in sentiment. And I'm sure most of Turbine's team are as well. All involved would like LOTRO to be gangbuster healthy and growing, no one more than them, I'm sure. It's our beloved passtime, but it's the baby some of them nurtured and grew from infancy. It's also how they put bread on the table each night. No one wins here, not even the "told you so" contrarian who has been predicting LOTRO's death since 2008 and finally gets to crow about how right he was...even he loses, because that's not how you win in life.

    *shrug* Nothing we can do about it at this point, short of praying for some genius to come up with a new business model that suddenly changes the dynamics of the game and its player base.

 

 
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