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  1. #51
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beltharas View Post
    There is all kinds of speculation about this; any chance you could let us in on some of the rationale behind the decision not to develop any new instances any time soon? Are raids/instances something the devs would like to continue adding to the game but are unable to due to limited resources? Or do you just intend to develop the game in other directions?
    I think if you read Joe's comments about what we do with raids, instances, and Epic Battles back in our October 20 Questions, he made a good point.

    Q4: Bedalin: Will future expansions and updates have more Big Battles or will we see more traditional Raids?
    A4: jwbarry:
    Likely both. The type of story we’re telling and the location we’re telling it will greatly inform whether instances, raids, skirmishes, big battles, or some combination is the best gameplay mechanism to utilize.
    So what we're doing storywise influences what kind of content and systems we use to tell that story. The same is true about not using those. I think it's inevitable that people are going to speculate and read between the lines (even when there is nothing there to read) and try to parse everything, but the simple truth is we make content decisions all the time when it comes to how we tell the stories we're trying to tell. This is just another one of those decisions.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Then you should understand exactly what can happen when power surges hit electronic equipment and cycle rapidly through a series of brownouts, blackout, and partial reboots with brownouts and blackouts during the rebooting process. As a former IT manager with 15 years experience in server and networking design I shudder to think of what a typical switch would do under that type or electrical abuse.

    If you've never seen a server or switch pretty much eat itself alive under those conditions, you've been very fortunate thus far.
    I believe that the circumstances you describe can kill hardware. I even believe that circumstances can be so freaky that hardware gets killed in a professional data centre (you are being hosted in a professional data centre?)

    But unless you had all the components custom built, shouldn't this be a case of trashing the broken stuff, putting in replacement components and restoring data from backup?
    in my thoughts and in my dreams they´re always in my mind
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  3. #53
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelamanthDE View Post
    I believe that the circumstances you describe can kill hardware. I even believe that circumstances can be so freaky that hardware gets killed in a professional data centre (you are being hosted in a professional data centre?)

    But unless you had all the components custom built, shouldn't this be a case of trashing the broken stuff, putting in replacement components and restoring data from backup?
    It's a little more complicated than that. We're talking about replacing hardware (not cheap) and prioritizing that alongside other infrastructure needs. As with most things, once you start talking about priorities, budgets, and the inherent complexities of these various systems, things that seem like they should be easy are anything but.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    It's a little more complicated than that. We're talking about replacing hardware (not cheap) and prioritizing that alongside other infrastructure needs. As with most things, once you start talking about priorities, budgets, and the inherent complexities of these various systems, things that seem like they should be easy are anything but.
    Oh hell yes, those guys talking budgets and priorities can make a techie's life miserable. Just my experience too.

    I was just asking based on the assumption that you are running your systems in a data centre that should be insured against catastrophic events (thus mitigating the budget problem) and that there are SLAs in place between you (turbine) and the operator of the data centre (so it should be his business to get his systems running again).

    But I guess we are getting into murky areas where I understand if you can't be more explicit.
    in my thoughts and in my dreams they´re always in my mind
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  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    And for the OP, I'm glad someone actually made a post a couple of weeks ago. I have tried to tell people that the raids comment isn't new. In truth, before the live stream on the 10th, I had said it on the one you're referencing and we've been telling players since about August of last year that HD would have no traditional instance cluster or raid associated with it.
    Whoever these decision-makers are, someone needs to let them know they're doing it wrong, people are bored as hell.. 336 ppl on glff at Brandywine on primetime now, the biggest server less than 2 months after HD release (used to be more than that during poor RoR months)... there's nothing left to do, no challenge. ToO and before gave ppl challenge once a week to do something rewarding.. current endgame doesn't and BB, improved inventory and festivals for another 1.5yr+ won't fix this.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelamanthDE View Post
    ...shouldn't this be a case of trashing the broken stuff, putting in replacement components and restoring data from backup?
    I think maybe we all didn't realize until recently just how shoestring their budget is.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proudcdn View Post
    I do not understand all the people that say; "Scale the old stuff." I for one am sick of running the same runs over and over again; the same festivals over and over again ... Develop NEW CONTENT !!! Without new content, the game will die; plain and simple. They launched LOTS of new great content with HD and it could have kept us busy for months but it didn't (see below for why).

    I know that we have been through droughts of No New Content before but this time it is different. Here is why:

    • Helm's Deep - Big Battles (most hate them, those that like them are burning out fast)
    • Helm's Deep - Lots of new quest content but they made it sequential meaning that if you plan to run alts through you have to do the EXACT SAME quests in the EXACT SAME order ... or if you get to the point where you can branch off you will be near 95 and not be getting any XP for doing them. This was a major flaw. Perhaps this can be fixed with an update to the OP nature of our toons, at least we might be level 91-92 when we hit the point that you can branch off and do quests as you see fit and still get XP for them.
    • Helm's Deep - Skill Trees forced many to completely re-learn how they play (not a good a thing in my opinion) and many just said; "If I have to re-learn I might as well start a new MMO." The flaw with the skill bars not saving correctly makes no-one want to respec (I am sure they will correct this though).
    • Helm's Deep - Scaled the same old runs we can now do with our eyes closed (repeated scaled instances such as school, annuminas, etc.) but did not make them hard at all. In fact, they are easier now at level than they were at 65, 75, or 85 at level. An update to the balance of toons may correct how easy these are but it does not change the fact that we are re-running the exact same content.


    • Helm's Deep -Every single class is OP. There is no challenge left in the game. We are completing Tier III skraids without blinking an eye. Most of us hit level cap in a matter of days (those that did not power-level Sword Halls) just by doing the quest lines. At least the OP can be fixed with a tweak to the system (and it has been alluded that this is coming with Update 12.2).


    I love LOTRO. It has IMO been the best MMO on the market since it's launch. I am VERY concerned about its future.

    - A concerned gamer
    Much I agree with here (I am in the burning out group for BBs, love them though). My main disagreement is the idea that ALL classes are OP. Many can be considered such in one or more of their trait lines. Most won't be much longer. But, Wardens damage-wise are way underpowered (and killed by lag), Hunters are just right (or will be in short order from what the hunter dev indicates -- bye bye beautiful op traps), Minstrels heal great and put out crazy high damage but they can be killed by a bag of feathers being emptied on their heads. Lots of adjusting and balancing to be done (and a whole lot of work on minstrel development) but not all classes are feeling the OP love.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/03202000000000bb6/01000/signature.png]Stephen[/charsig]

  8. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    I think if you read Joe's comments about what we do with raids, instances, and Epic Battles back in our October 20 Questions, he made a good point.



    So what we're doing storywise influences what kind of content and systems we use to tell that story. The same is true about not using those. I think it's inevitable that people are going to speculate and read between the lines (even when there is nothing there to read) and try to parse everything, but the simple truth is we make content decisions all the time when it comes to how we tell the stories we're trying to tell. This is just another one of those decisions.
    If only it was that transparent. Whilst the epic quest line was winding its way through East Rohan, we got an instance cluster based in Erebor, Scuttledells, Goblin Town, Dale etc.
    [SIZE=3]NO SLEEP 'TILL MORDOR!![/SIZE]

  9. #59
    You can never know what Turbine mean when they talk about time. 'Anytime soon' could be next 2 months or next 2 years. So don't give up hope i say. It's almost impossible they would just let level-capped players cancel their subs. I am quite sure there is something coming mid 2014. Else would be suicide for Turbine.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by unip0pcorn View Post
    You can never know what Turbine mean when they talk about time. 'Anytime soon' could be next 2 months or next 2 years. So don't give up hope i say. It's almost impossible they would just let level-capped players cancel their subs. I am quite sure there is something coming mid 2014. Else would be suicide for Turbine.
    If there is something for level capped players mid 2014 it would need to be far along in development. Turbine has announced flat out there will be no raids or instances for the Helms Deep expansion because Big Battles *was* the group content. No Instance Cluster. No Traditional Raids. I'm not quite sure what you're expecting in mid 2014 that would be content for level-capped players which hasn't even been hinted at other than cosmetics and bug fixes and for sure doesn't include an instance or raid.

    There may be something in the future, but it won't be anytime soon, and it won't be 2014.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
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  11. #61
    Removing any subjective feeling one has about the game right now, be it good or bad, I ask myself one question that I don't have a good answer to.

    What are we supposed to be doing when we log in?

    Heck I did not play LOTRO for a year and even I am burned out on scaled stuff! I can't imagine how people feel who have been here all through RoR. While disappointing I could understand if BBs were to hold us until an after-expansion-instance-cluster release a couple months after an expansion like Turbine has done in the past. But BBs being the entirety of NEW end game for the forseeable future? Are we really meant to play the same 1 fellowship and 1 raid BB for 6 months? For little to no rewards now that we all have the same pieces of jewelry? Seriously?

    The Moors are still there, but I don't know that is enough to get my subscription on its own right now. There's a whole forum section for that so I won't get into it. It's tough to log in to LOTRO right now, even after coming back after a long absence, looking forward to playing again. After getting to 95 all the excitement has disappeared because there's just nothing new to do. I missed a year of the game and I don't feel like there's really much new stuff that I missed. Now it's official they're not even planning on new raids and MAY NOT EVER do them again if they don't "fit the story"??? Whatever that even means, sure sounded like an "out" to me. I am disappoint.
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  12. #62
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    Well all i can say is GOODBYE TURBINE!

    Im not paying another cent to them for the state lotro is in....i wont 'rage delete' lotro like i did before xmas.....as i came back a month later. Ill keep updating and checking what updates include....on the off-chance that some new end-game content (other than ####ty faceroll big batles) come along. I've loved my time here, but turbines lack of attention toward end-game content is going to ruin things.

    Theres only so much time before all the casuals they are catering to now reach the lvl cap...and then what? the recycling of players better happen or the end of lotro is near.

    Anyways, like i said ill be updating things and maybe coming back if they get their #### sorted....but u got until april turbine, TESO is out....and i wont be back. T'is a shame but BB folks, i hope things keep going but cant see how the way things are.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by thunderchickn View Post
    Removing any subjective feeling one has about the game right now, be it good or bad, I ask myself one question that I don't have a good answer to.

    What are we supposed to be doing when we log in?

    Heck I did not play LOTRO for a year and even I am burned out on scaled stuff! I can't imagine how people feel who have been here all through RoR. While disappointing I could understand if BBs were to hold us until an after-expansion-instance-cluster release a couple months after an expansion like Turbine has done in the past. But BBs being the entirety of NEW end game for the forseeable future? Are we really meant to play the same 1 fellowship and 1 raid BB for 6 months? For little to no rewards now that we all have the same pieces of jewelry? Seriously?

    The Moors are still there, but I don't know that is enough to get my subscription on its own right now. There's a whole forum section for that so I won't get into it. It's tough to log in to LOTRO right now, even after coming back after a long absence, looking forward to playing again. After getting to 95 all the excitement has disappeared because there's just nothing new to do. I missed a year of the game and I don't feel like there's really much new stuff that I missed. Now it's official they're not even planning on new raids and MAY NOT EVER do them again if they don't "fit the story"??? Whatever that even means, sure sounded like an "out" to me. I am disappoint.
    You just stated how i feel....im #### at getting my points down. At east with an expansion there was something to do on my 85'ers (as they were at the time). NOw we dont even get that. I dont want solo content (like hytbold), i want instances and raids, and if poss non-laggy pvp....but the pvp alone isnt enough to justify my sub. The scaled content has been facerolled too much, i even resorted to doing annuminas/fornost with 2 men (captain tanking/champ dps) and managed some challenge modes.

    If your not bothering with the dedicated core that pay subs and have been here a long time and instead are catering toward the casual solo players...good luck, but its a dangerous game, casuals will only be here until they reach the lvl cap and hit the same brick wall or boredom a lot os us have.

  14. #64
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    These threads always seem to devolve into people trying their level best to not take Sapiance's posts at face value.

    I don't see how speculating helps anyone here.


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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sezneg View Post
    These threads always seem to devolve into people trying their level best to not take Sapiance's posts at face value.

    I don't see how speculating helps anyone here.
    I'm confused, we are taking them at face value. We have been told that big battles are the end game for Helms Deep and there will be no instance cluster or raids for this expansion - that's not really open to interpretation. It's pretty darn definite.

    We may have raids and instance clusters in the future depending on the story line. But it will not be "anytime soon" (their words) which means sometime after Helms Deep they might or might not start to develop one. For the next year they will be fixing bugs, working on fluff (my interpretation of housing and cosmetics and general landscape), and some other vague stuff that didn't address end-game content.

    Since we're not Turbine we can do nothing but speculate on our own thoughts, or take the words of the devs and CM and discuss those. I believe that's what we're doing.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
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  16. #66
    So even with sapience answer i have a question, they said no instance cluster will be included in HD expansion, and from what i understand that only means that any further content they realese we will have to pay extra for it.
    If all of you are correct (Beacuse Sapience answer as the executive letter and the 20 questions, are just diplomatic answers that never say nothing, other terms just a bunch of nice words) and they really mean there will be no new instances during 2014, then even if they realese 3 new regions free to VIP's its the END OF THE GAME.
    People will leave and wont come back, with ESO coming out on April 2014, yea probably all subscribers will cancel and leave if they dont did it already.

    Lame, if Turbine actually hear the community and their "Council" they would have done better decitions that what they have done for past 2 years, games like this one can handle 1 or 2 bad decitions but as we go now you guys did 2 complete expac's of bad decitions.

    And bug fixes should be apart from content development, its NOT an excuse, and with more reason when you guys realese patch notes of something you didnt even upload to the game (patch 12.1 = Fiasco)
    And the upcoming 12.2, come on.. do you guys even know how the game its now? I think Turbine dosent even know how LOTRO is atm.
    Example, Moors rings => Tactical and pshy mitigations... LOL (First, new type of creep dmg is not mitigated by those, Second With actual stats every single class have it Cap already, So yes is USELESS)

    So again, and i said before, BB's were barely OK to substitude Skirm period after each expansion so the instance cluster is launched on march. Now with ESO going out, with more reason something must change dramaticly or it will be the end. (Yes, already 3/4 of my remaining friends leaving to ESO if something dont change.)

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    So what we're doing storywise influences what kind of content and systems we use to tell that story. The same is true about not using those. I think it's inevitable that people are going to speculate and read between the lines (even when there is nothing there to read) and try to parse everything, but the simple truth is we make content decisions all the time when it comes to how we tell the stories we're trying to tell. This is just another one of those decisions.
    Well, as a professional story-teller , I can say that a story can be told in many ways. To me this is sort of a killer argument. You decide not to make instances? Yeah, it's for the story's sake. You decide not to make an add-on? Of course, it's for the story's sake. Story's sacred. Blabla I don't call you liars of course. But then again, I'm almost certain that there's another truth to the decision aside from the story.

    Funnily we have had 6 years of great stories in lotro (yeah, they're awesome and thanks for them!) that always were capable of classic dungeons. I can't believe this changes all of a sudden and we won't get any story worth at least one or two new classic dungeons in a whole year.

    More likely it seems that Turbine's priorities lie on other things but classic instanced endgame. When it comes to the endgame, I guess it's that mini-game in game called Epic Battles at the moment. Well, it's understandable in a way. It's a new approach to the game. Unfortunately a whole lot of people who like classic instances don't really get warm with epic battles because there's too little class-play in them and too much, well, mini-game and skirmish. But I'm not telling any news there, am I?

    My question is: If lotro-community really really wants and cries and screams for classic instances, is there any chance for Turbine to change their plans to match players' interests for 2014?

    I'm not sure if good oal lotro-players will reallly really want and crie and scream, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. But I do hear some screaming, shouting and crying already now, don't I? Yet, is it loud enough?

    ------

    As for that apparent ESO-threat: I don't like it. We're all going to leave lotro and go to the Elder Scrolls - and never come back? I suppose, Turbine has heard stuff like that like a few times every year. But anyone who ever liked Lotro will come back. I might take a long break myself and play ESO. The perspective of no instances in a year certainly drives me to log out for a long time. But whenever "The story" (wooo) allows new classic dungeons, I'll most certainly be back. No matter how well ESO will be. And believe me: ESO will have its own time-sink as well, as did Skyrim for me. A few months and the first players will start criticizing and leaving. Some things are never right - with any game you play. And if Lotro's just a throw-away-game for you, you never were part of its real community. If you were, then it'll be some kind of virtual home, you'll return to some time round.
    Last edited by GithlithMonaghan; Jan 15 2014 at 10:51 AM.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    And for the OP, I'm glad someone actually made a post a couple of weeks ago. I have tried to tell people that the raids comment isn't new. In truth, before the live stream on the 10th, I had said it on the one you're referencing and we've been telling players since about August of last year that HD would have no traditional instance cluster or raid associated with it.
    I'm still unclear about what this means in real terms. HD was released in Nov 2013. We are now in Jan 2014, at what point in the year does HD stop in terms of what you are developing? is it the next expansion which we have no date for?

    The producer's letter has already indicated specific areas of content development for 2014 but this letter does not specify what is HD and what is considered new content.

    I think people generally get that HD was not going to have traditional instances and raids. Many assumed that this may come at some point in 2014.

    I'm really sorry if I am being dumb here, but references to buried Dev questions, quotes in third party sites and an unspecified HD timeframe does not explain when there will be a "traditional instance cluster or raid".

    What has been explained is that depending on the content you will develop either a BB, skirmish, instances or raid. That is a very generalised statement.

  19. #69
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    Sorry am not buying the we create content that goes with the story we are telling , the majority of instances and raids have little if anything to do with the 'story' its all made up , you basically chose not to create this type of content any more .

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faitha81 View Post
    Sorry am not buying the we create content that goes with the story we are telling , the majority of instances and raids have little if anything to do with the 'story' its all made up , you basically chose not to create this type of content any more .

    Wouldn't that mean the epic storyline? Sounded like it to me......

  21. #71
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    I'm not surprised. They really pulled out all of the stops with 5 big battles. I'm sure that poorly scaling old content took a lot of time and effort as well.

  22. #72
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    What if...: Turbine has not yet planned WHEN to release a new raid cluster.
    During spring is announced (producer letter) there should be some kind of surprise for us...: announcing when they plan to release a new raid cluster...

  23. #73
    this is my interpretation of the devs' and sapience' comments.

    Basically during this time in lord of the rings our big struggle is one of a magnitude of a war, big battles is the content we get. In the future, we will get a traditional raid/cluster only if our story within it's current timeline supports it over big battles. For the next year (which I interpret to be until next december) the developers said they are going to focus on "catching up" on all the new systems they've created over the years to make it a more pleasing environment to newcomers and tolkien lovers. Things like big battles, mounted combat, housing, pvp, and scaled instance/raid content are possibly going to be cleaned up. New instances/raids are not happening until we get a new expansion, which won't happen until they decide they've spent enough time sprucing up these old and new systems.

    Where does this leave raiders? The same place we've been for the last two years, so nothing new there. We are the Raiders of the Lost Lotro!

  24. #74
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraxv View Post
    What if...: Turbine has not yet planned WHEN to release a new raid cluster.
    During spring is announced (producer letter) there should be some kind of surprise for us...: announcing when they plan to release a new raid cluster...
    Before this takes on a life of its own. No.

    I want to clarify something that people have conflated with my comment. I did not say no new content. I said no new raids/instance cluster. Update 13 is in the works and contains new content and a pretty good start on some of the things Kate mentioned in her letter.

    To be more clear, raids are a type of content. They are not the only type of content.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Before this takes on a life of its own. No.

    I want to clarify something that people have conflated with my comment. I did not say no new content. I said no new raids/instance cluster. Update 13 is in the works and contains new content and a pretty good start on some of the things Kate mentioned in her letter.

    To be more clear, raids are a type of content. They are not the only type of content.
    Thanks Sapience for your replies and for following this thread.

    So bit by bit we get there. To further expand on this comment are you in a position to clarify WHEN lotro is likely to see any new traditional raids and instances?

 

 
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