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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anavalar View Post
    Please explain how that works. I've never been in the gaming industry but in every market I have been in, the smart money said "It will take half the time, effort and capital to make one dollar by keeping an old customer happy than it will to pull a dollar by wooing a new customer."

    The only sense I can make of Turbine's current policy is if they have hard statistical numbers from sales and game-play analysis that prove to them that it is only a vocal minority of their existing customers that desire a challenging game and group content. If perhaps folks are spending their money on the Isengard and East Rohan quests packs and not purchasing the full expansions then that is giving Turbine a different picture of their base than the posts on the forum would indicate. If they had disappointing sales on Helm's Deep then their fall back strategy could well be easy sales of 795 TP zones with just quests and war bands.
    Well it'd have to be a balance I think. The more new players you can get in to play the content you've already developed the better, but there's only so many potential buyers to lure in before you need to focus on the players you already have.
    Last edited by Elrantiri; Jan 05 2014 at 04:04 AM.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lusiwusi View Post
    In my eyes, all Add-Ons with increased max-level were too fast to complete. From HD-Add-On i saw the first 95ers 4 hours after the HD has started. It took a long time to reach level 50 with SoA. So why it is so easy to reach the new max-level in such a short time?

    Why players rush to new content the reach the new max-level in the shortest time? No developers can follow this speed to create new and new content.
    I dont think its the players who "rush" to level cap. Yes indeed people who reach it in few hours playtime did, but that were only a few. Most of people take their time. But the problem is the quests are just facerolled and our classes became soooo..... overpower, even with only quest gear and 3'rd age LI no legacy. Remember how hard landscape mobs could be in SoA? AND bunches of fellowship quests. Even solo quests were harder. The stats on gear were also increased dramatically in RoI and in HD. And year LIs. Its not just because of the cosmetics that people who want to run Rift on level dont want to use LI but old SoA weapons.
    Last edited by Hiritier; Jan 05 2014 at 09:52 AM.

  3. #28
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    After the joke that was the Erebor cluster & the clear message from the devs that HD would not include an instance cluster, there simply aren't many end-game PvE players still interested in this game. It doesn't make financial sense for Turbine to invest in challenging group content, so they won't.

  4. #29
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    Scale the Rift from 50 and 95 and everyone will be happy.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moors-Battlemaster View Post
    Scale the Rift from 50 and 95 and everyone will be happy.
    they would have to do it well though. scaling the old stuff well, great. a criticism often of this is they do it so badly that it ruins it for some/many/all

  6. #31
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    I do not understand all the people that say; "Scale the old stuff." I for one am sick of running the same runs over and over again; the same festivals over and over again ... Develop NEW CONTENT !!! Without new content, the game will die; plain and simple. They launched LOTS of new great content with HD and it could have kept us busy for months but it didn't (see below for why).

    I know that we have been through droughts of No New Content before but this time it is different. Here is why:

    • Helm's Deep - Big Battles (most hate them, those that like them are burning out fast)
    • Helm's Deep - Lots of new quest content but they made it sequential meaning that if you plan to run alts through you have to do the EXACT SAME quests in the EXACT SAME order ... or if you get to the point where you can branch off you will be near 95 and not be getting any XP for doing them. This was a major flaw. Perhaps this can be fixed with an update to the OP nature of our toons, at least we might be level 91-92 when we hit the point that you can branch off and do quests as you see fit and still get XP for them.
    • Helm's Deep - Skill Trees forced many to completely re-learn how they play (not a good a thing in my opinion) and many just said; "If I have to re-learn I might as well start a new MMO." The flaw with the skill bars not saving correctly makes no-one want to respec (I am sure they will correct this though).
    • Helm's Deep - Scaled the same old runs we can now do with our eyes closed (repeated scaled instances such as school, annuminas, etc.) but did not make them hard at all. In fact, they are easier now at level than they were at 65, 75, or 85 at level. An update to the balance of toons may correct how easy these are but it does not change the fact that we are re-running the exact same content.


    • Helm's Deep -Every single class is OP. There is no challenge left in the game. We are completing Tier III skraids without blinking an eye. Most of us hit level cap in a matter of days (those that did not power-level Sword Halls) just by doing the quest lines. At least the OP can be fixed with a tweak to the system (and it has been alluded that this is coming with Update 12.2).


    I love LOTRO. It has IMO been the best MMO on the market since it's launch. I am VERY concerned about its future.

    - A concerned gamer
    Last edited by Proudcdn; Jan 05 2014 at 09:13 AM.
    Dadi / Tyrlas - Arkenstone (Officer - Rare Breed Kin)

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proudcdn View Post
    I do not understand all the people that say; "Scale the old stuff." I for one am sick of running the same runs over and over again; the same festivals over and over again ... Develop NEW CONTENT !!! Without new content, the game will die; plain and simple. They launched LOTS of new content with HD and it could have kept us busy for months but it didn't (see below for why).
    Yet the PvE content in SoA was far superior to anything they have released since. The Rift is still the best raid in the game IMO, followed by OD.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lusiwusi View Post
    In my eyes, all Add-Ons with increased max-level were too fast to complete. From HD-Add-On i saw the first 95ers 4 hours after the HD has started. It took a long time to reach level 50 with SoA. So why it is so easy to reach the new max-level in such a short time?

    Why players rush to new content the reach the new max-level in the shortest time? No developers can follow this speed to create new and new content.
    This is exactly the problem ... It is far too easy to reach cap, and I am not talking about those that sat in Sword Halls with XP scrolls; I am talking about those that did the new quest content and reached cap within a week. So I do not think that the vast majority of the issue was players "rushing to reach cap" (p-levellers aside), it was that the content was too easy and cap was reached too fast. The devs put a LOT of work into what should have been some awesome new quest content for months, not days. IMHO if they can fix the speed at which toons can reach cap, you fix 75% of the issues revolving around people being bored with the game.
    Dadi / Tyrlas - Arkenstone (Officer - Rare Breed Kin)

  9. #34
    The big problem I see with BB's is that they can't easily extend them in future. They've tied the BB trait tree points to the medals you get so if they added more instances they'd either need to break that relationship or extend the trait trees, or cap trait tree points or something. Seems to me that BB's are a once-off "gimmick".

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by q945 View Post
    The big problem I see with BB's is that they can't easily extend them in future.
    I really hope that's the case.

    People want new Raids, new 6man's, new 3man's. New rare loot you get through challenging content.
    Not scaled old stuff that we've ran for years already.
    Not utterly boring pseudo-skirmishes like BB's where class roles are inexistent.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proudcdn View Post
    This is exactly the problem ... It is far too easy to reach cap, and I am not talking about those that sat in Sword Halls with XP scrolls; I am talking about those that did the new quest content and reached cap within a week. So I do not think that the vast majority of the issue was players "rushing to reach cap" (p-levellers aside), it was that the content was too easy and cap was reached too fast. The devs put a LOT of work into what should have been some awesome new quest content for months, not days. IMHO if they can fix the speed at which toons can reach cap, you fix 75% of the issues revolving around people being bored with the game.
    I have to disagree with you on this. I don't think it should take months to make 10 levels. How is that going to affect new people who play the game? How is that going to affect people at the prior level cap from participating in whatever end game is available, outside of big battles? If it took a month even to go from one cap to another what are you gaining? Let's say for the sake of argument I play a couple hours a day, which is what I was doing after HD came out and I wanted to level my minstrel. It took me a week, doing all the quests, not taking short-cuts, not using enhancers except one for rep one time that I didn't really need. I quested purely solo, I didn't group during that time so nobody was making it easier for me. I got lost several times and stuck on a couple quests because I have no sense of direction and there were/are bugs. Do you want me to be limited to 5 quests a day like Hytbold just to level? Am I now on a timer that I'm not allowed to play for more than 15 minutes a day? If you make it take much longer than that you're going to seriously need to increase the number of quests available which means Turbine will have to include ten times the content just for questing for each expansion.

    On a side note, my hunter just hit 93 last night and I've barely been questing her. She's done some crafting (didn't realize jewelers would be basically useless this expac) but only does quests til her blue XP bar is gone for the day. Because of the insane amount of XP on the quests when they get 100% bump with the blue bar she's 93 but still doing level 88 quests - they're light blue to her now. It literally takes about 15 minutes a day, she doesn't even log on every day, and she's 93.

    I also think the quests are nice, but they sure wouldn't keep my attention for months. I get real tired of cleaning up after NPCs who are too lazy to clear their own tables and repair their own roofs. I expected that sort of activity out of Hytbold, not 10 levels of questing.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
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    Moochy, 105 Minstrel R10

  12. #37
    LOTRO is being run on a shoestring. There aren't enough devs, testers or GMs. This has been obvious for some time. All the resources are going into Infinite Crisis.

    Instances are very time/labour intensive to design, create and test. The dev team simply does not have the resources. The decision to pause the annual expansion cycle is an acknowledgment of this.

    Of course, it doesn't help that the producers decided that having a new gimmick/mini-game for the expansion (Big Battles) was more important than doing the old stuff well.

    It also doesn't help that Turbine has and always has had a policy of omerta on almost any form of open conversation with players.

    But really, anyone who is surprised at the "no cluster" news really hasn't been paying attention. I wouldn't be surprised if no more traditional instance clusters are ever developed for the game, at least unless there is a fundamental shift in Turbine's budgeting priorities (which I can't see happening).

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarmas_Eldar View Post
    LOTRO is being run on a shoestring. There aren't enough devs, testers or GMs. This has been obvious for some time. All the resources are going into Infinite Crisis.

    Instances are very time/labour intensive to design, create and test. The dev team simply does not have the resources. The decision to pause the annual expansion cycle is an acknowledgment of this.

    Of course, it doesn't help that the producers decided that having a new gimmick/mini-game for the expansion (Big Battles) was more important than doing the old stuff well.

    It also doesn't help that Turbine has and always has had a policy of omerta on almost any form of open conversation with players.

    But really, anyone who is surprised at the "no cluster" news really hasn't been paying attention. I wouldn't be surprised if no more traditional instance clusters are ever developed for the game, at least unless there is a fundamental shift in Turbine's budgeting priorities (which I can't see happening).
    They still have resources, they just don't allocate them wisely. They thought BB will be replacement for classic instance cluster and now they think inventory update is more important than fixing lag. They gave us unnecessary class changes and gave themselves months of needless work trying to fix it now.

    They just need better decision makers, that's all.
    Last edited by Veria; Jan 05 2014 at 06:54 PM.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    I have to disagree with you on this. I don't think it should take months to make 10 levels. How is that going to affect new people who play the game? How is that going to affect people at the prior level cap from participating in whatever end game is available, outside of big battles? If it took a month even to go from one cap to another what are you gaining? Let's say for the sake of argument I play a couple hours a day, which is what I was doing after HD came out and I wanted to level my minstrel. It took me a week, doing all the quests, not taking short-cuts, not using enhancers except one for rep one time that I didn't really need. I quested purely solo, I didn't group during that time so nobody was making it easier for me. I got lost several times and stuck on a couple quests because I have no sense of direction and there were/are bugs. Do you want me to be limited to 5 quests a day like Hytbold just to level? Am I now on a timer that I'm not allowed to play for more than 15 minutes a day? If you make it take much longer than that you're going to seriously need to increase the number of quests available which means Turbine will have to include ten times the content just for questing for each expansion.

    On a side note, my hunter just hit 93 last night and I've barely been questing her. She's done some crafting (didn't realize jewelers would be basically useless this expac) but only does quests til her blue XP bar is gone for the day. Because of the insane amount of XP on the quests when they get 100% bump with the blue bar she's 93 but still doing level 88 quests - they're light blue to her now. It literally takes about 15 minutes a day, she doesn't even log on every day, and she's 93.

    I also think the quests are nice, but they sure wouldn't keep my attention for months. I get real tired of cleaning up after NPCs who are too lazy to clear their own tables and repair their own roofs. I expected that sort of activity out of Hytbold, not 10 levels of questing.
    I rather take a month (lets say ~ 60 hours playtime) of fun and challenge to get 10 levels, while looking foward a great fun and challenge endgame that could last months as my motivation, than 1 week rolling thru 10 levels then 3 weeks of farming boring things and burned out. Quest cap is not the answer. They have to make the leveling somehow slower, but more fun.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiritier View Post
    I rather take a month (lets say ~ 60 hours playtime) of fun and challenge to get 10 levels, while looking foward a great fun and challenge endgame that could last months as my motivation, than 1 week rolling thru 10 levels then 3 weeks of farming boring things and burned out. Quest cap is not the answer. They have to make the leveling somehow slower, but more fun.
    I don't want to spend a month/60 hours of playtime questing. I don't enjoy it that much. I'd much rather spend 60 hours+ doing raids and instances. Perhaps they could give you more areas, which I believe they're going to do over the next year, and also give me instances/raids. I just don't see why they're mutually exclusive.

    I used to spend a lot of money in this game, and now I spend nothing. Questing won't cause me to open my wallet again, but raids would. I enjoy end game.
    I'd explain it to you, but I'm all out of Puppets and Crayons.
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  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    I don't want to spend a month/60 hours of playtime questing. I don't enjoy it that much.
    I didnt say 60 hours questing, I said leveling. Questing is only a part of it. This is something LOTRO has been missing for years. In many other MMO, you have many way to level. You can run dungeons, you can pvp, you can do quests... In LOTRO, faceroll questing, straight ahead. Scaled instances can be run at all level, but people only run them at level cap or they are too easy (farming SH with x2 xp scroll for example). Instances should hard enough, but give good gear and xp so people who want to take challenge could get proper reward.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    Were there any left?

    Yeah, its in the producers letter too.



    Interesting side note. Last night, Lotro crashed without warning to desktop. As I was logging back in,, I was looking at the loading screen of the LM trying to fend off a snowbeast with his staff. I realized, on that screen, the text "Includes the massive 12-person raid: Helegrod". Most of the ones in my kin and I came from 30 person raids in EQ. To call a 12 person raid massive is kinda a joke, but four years later, it is on us. We like Tolkien too much, plus most of us have families now and cannot raid as much as we did then, so I guess a 12 person raid is massive now.
    The "massive" come from Helegrod originally being a 24 person raid before there was a t1 or t2. That's the only raid of that size lotro ever had.....and as for the others who don't think the old stuff shouldn't be scaled......dragons/ring wraiths/saruman/balrogs should always be end level content, not something I can solo on a LtC captain.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anavalar View Post
    Please explain how that works. I've never been in the gaming industry but in every market I have been in, the smart money said "It will take half the time, effort and capital to make one dollar by keeping an old customer happy than it will to pull a dollar by wooing a new customer."
    Well I'm not in the industry either, so this of course all pure speculation. But there are pretty logical reasons for my conclusion:
    Existing players already own most account-based upgrades, and often have no problem obtaining enough free TP to unlock new content/upgrades (e.g. my cappy got like 300 TP just from levelling 85-95, if I'd do the same with my other 85 alts I'd have more than enough TP to unlock a new zone without any TP grinding). New players on the other hand with only one/two chars will most likely spend money to get TP/VIP for upgrades and content to avoid grinding TP (assuming they know about free TP in the first place). Plus they don't know all the details on how this game works, so they may spend money on stuff that they don't need/can obtain in-game, or things to bypass certain areas (crafting tier skips, gift of the valar). Many/most existing players only spend money on VIP and new expansions at best even if not being disappointed by the recent expansions. It's in their specific business model with free TP, permanent upgrades, keeping VIP benefits and Lifetime accounts.
    Number of new player accounts will also show "the management" that the game has a growing userbase as old accounts are not removed even when they are inactive. In a world where success is measured in growth that can be pretty important.
    Last edited by Grimdi; Jan 06 2014 at 04:25 AM.

  19. #44

    The only way to save the game now

    Make ALL old instances scalable, integrate them ALL into the Instance Finder, and FIX the Instance Finder to accept raids and improve its grouping mechanisms!

    Show queued instances in the IF that are waiting so we can directly jump in! People might finally use the IF if they see open groups that are currently waiting!

    If these things are not implemented, THE GAME WILL BE DEAD!

  20. #45
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    Rift Raid scaling:

    T1-Everything the same as 50, just scale up morale/damage.

    T2-Add a few new mechanics for each boss (extra waves of adds, debuff that requires co-ordination between players to prevent deaths etc), ramp up damage and morale even further.

    T2 Challenge-Add challenge befitting boss fight to increase difficulty by a great deal (Ie, Kill Barz without killing any of the waves [requires extra focus, more tanking and less dps], Defeat Fruz after only killing 4 healing Grashfra orcs etc)

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anavalar View Post
    Please explain how that works. I've never been in the gaming industry but in every market I have been in, the smart money said "It will take half the time, effort and capital to make one dollar by keeping an old customer happy than it will to pull a dollar by wooing a new customer."

    The only sense I can make of Turbine's current policy is if they have hard statistical numbers from sales and game-play analysis that prove to them that it is only a vocal minority of their existing customers that desire a challenging game and group content. If perhaps folks are spending their money on the Isengard and East Rohan quests packs and not purchasing the full expansions then that is giving Turbine a different picture of their base than the posts on the forum would indicate. If they had disappointing sales on Helm's Deep then their fall back strategy could well be easy sales of 795 TP zones with just quests and war bands.

    The MMO business is probably different from brick&mortar world. I think that over time I've become far more savvy about LOTRO's Turbine Point Store. Whereas early on I would occasionally buy things with my money, over time I've learned their true value; whether it's worthless or you get accustomed to the fact that the item is frequently on sale; basically at this point I don't buy anything but inventory space, and I wait until there's a sale for stat points. Everything else is a bloody waste. But new players aren't aware of that yet. They're more willing to spend, because they haven't learned what's a suckers deal or not.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000115b85/01003/signature.png]Theodorius[/charsig]

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiritier View Post
    I dont think its the players who "rush" to level cap. Yes indeed people who reach it in few hours playtime did, but that were only a few. Most of people take their time. But the problem is the quests are just facerolled and our classes became soooo..... overpower, even with only quest gear and 3'rd age LI no legacy. Remember how hard landscape mobs could be in SoA? AND bunches of fellowship quests. Even solo quests were harder. The stats on gear were also increased dramatically in RoI and in HD. And year LIs. Its not just because of the cosmetics that people who want to run Rift on level dont want to use LI but old SoA weapons.
    Interesting. I just started playing again after a long Hiatus, and starting out where I left off at 85, I am continually remarking to myself about how much easier this all seems to be than what I remembered. I just figured it was the fact that the new trait system pretty much forced me to trait Red for my Captain (because there's no way I'm soloing the environment up to 95 in healing/tanking configs!), instead of the 5b/2r system I was used to.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000115b85/01003/signature.png]Theodorius[/charsig]

  23. #48
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burrito View Post
    A...power...outage...broke...t he...lotteries??? I REALLY find this one hard to believe, and i work in IT. And so do my friends that work in IT. And so do their friends that work in IT.
    Then you should understand exactly what can happen when power surges hit electronic equipment and cycle rapidly through a series of brownouts, blackout, and partial reboots with brownouts and blackouts during the rebooting process. As a former IT manager with 15 years experience in server and networking design I shudder to think of what a typical switch would do under that type or electrical abuse.

    If you've never seen a server or switch pretty much eat itself alive under those conditions, you've been very fortunate thus far.

    And for the OP, I'm glad someone actually made a post a couple of weeks ago. I have tried to tell people that the raids comment isn't new. In truth, before the live stream on the 10th, I had said it on the one you're referencing and we've been telling players since about August of last year that HD would have no traditional instance cluster or raid associated with it.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proudcdn View Post
    I do not understand all the people that say; "Scale the old stuff." I for one am sick of running the same runs over and over again; the same festivals over and over again ... Develop NEW CONTENT !!! Without new content, the game will die; plain and simple. They launched LOTS of new great content with HD and it could have kept us busy for months but it didn't (see below for why).
    Correct. I used to be a diehard LOTRO player. From Moria until about a year after Mirkwood I played nearly every day. Now? I only log in when there's new content to explore. And even then, not always.

    * Isengard? Logged in, played to cap, couldn't find any groups doing instances so I never did them. Stopped playing.
    * Eastern Rohan? Logged in, got sick of the "end game" rebuilding quests. Never finished because it was such a grind.
    * Wildermore? Didn't care.
    * Helms Deep? Logged in, currently playing up to 95. I expect I'll stop again once I finish the questlines.


    [LIST][*]Helm's Deep - Lots of new quest content but they made it sequential meaning that if you plan to run alts through you have to do the EXACT SAME quests in the EXACT SAME order ... or if you get to the point where you can branch off you will be near 95 and not be getting any XP for doing them. This was a major flaw. Perhaps this can be fixed with an update to the OP nature of our toons, at least we might be level 91-92 when we hit the point that you can branch off and do quests as you see fit and still get XP for them.
    I just don't bother anymore. I once got 6 characters up to level 65, though I think it was partly because we were stuck there for so long, but now I just level my main captain and everyone else is stuck around 60-70. There's no replayability. Maybe I might roll one of them to 0 to play the beginning of the game for nostalgia, but it's doubtful.

    [*]Helm's Deep - Skill Trees forced many to completely re-learn how they play (not a good a thing in my opinion) and many just said; "If I have to re-learn I might as well start a new MMO." The flaw with the skill bars not saving correctly makes no-one want to respec (I am sure they will correct this though).
    Yup. I used to play with a buddy of mine. I've been trying to convince him to come back (we're lifetimers, so it's not even like we have to pay) so we can do Rohan together. He won't. He logged in, couldn't figure out anything, and said "I might as well reroll, they've changed everything". Instead he quit playing altogether.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/04208000000115b85/01003/signature.png]Theodorius[/charsig]

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    And for the OP, I'm glad someone actually made a post a couple of weeks ago. I have tried to tell people that the raids comment isn't new. In truth, before the live stream on the 10th, I had said it on the one you're referencing and we've been telling players since about August of last year that HD would have no traditional instance cluster or raid associated with it.

    There is all kinds of speculation about this; any chance you could let us in on some of the rationale behind the decision not to develop any new instances any time soon? Are raids/instances something the devs would like to continue adding to the game but are unable to due to limited resources? Or do you just intend to develop the game in other directions?

 

 
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