End to the Might "grace period"?

[DiggleMan]

well... its quite different in my case.
im tanking far better than captains since they can only tank 1 target.

You've been playing with fail Captains then. They have a trait for a 6(?) target force taunt among their other AoE's and the 3x threat multiplier in yellow, or the "godmode" tree.

i am currently tanking with agi gear and around 21k raw morale (around 25 with buffs i think) and i am doing good. i dont die i hold agro and i do #### ton of dps.
in my opinion the key is keeping NS always up and using DC as much as possible. if not, its a med armour class you dont have lotsa options there.

Go into BG and try tanking Durchest in that gear, or any other main scaled t2 raid boss. 3-6 mans don't really count, because you don't even need tanks for the majority of those. You didn't say what instances so I am just assuming that you are talking about 3-6 mans / skraids because anything else t2c is unrealistic, with what you said.

[Miloneel]

If we have an easy way to reach that 5% and a longer duration on it + change that + 380 evade on war-cry for 5% evade I would be very happy.

That switching stances Block bonus is plainly bad designed. It just breaks all the tempo. If anything it should come by the hand of something like Persevere Finisher, not by switching stances every x seconds. Leave that 3-year-old playstyle for other classes please.

And totally agreed, WC trait should be changed to Percentages (5% at max tier). I think that's something that was asked in Beta too.
Also wouldn't be a bad idea to make a Passive for Wardens where they get +5% Parry when using a Spear, to get us in the 30% Parry game and to get the Spear back for tanking.
25/30/30 BPE is where Wardens should be since HD launched, imo.

You've been playing with fail Captains then.

That seems to be the case.

[spelunker]

Go into BG and try tanking Durchest in that gear, or any other main scaled t2 raid boss. 3-6 mans don't really count, because you don't even need tanks for the majority of those. You didn't say what instances so I am just assuming that you are talking about 3-6 mans / skraids because anything else t2c is unrealistic, with what you said.

Several OD T2C pugs have been fine with me in a 90% dps gear setup (I swapped 3 jewelry pieces for tanky stuff, from what I remember of those runs). In some of the runs with a healer i would classify as 'good' I went 95% dps/threat gambits with next to no regard for self-buffs or healing, and in some runs with pretty sketchy healing I had to change my approach considerably both for my own sake and for the survival of my side of the raid and was going very high priority on self-heals/life taps and doing just enough to hold aggro. Certainly with only about a 10% block chance and less than 50% crit defense I was leaving a lot on the table for survivability, but I never felt like I was the 'weak link' in the raid.

I have heard both the BfE T2 trolls and durchest still pack quite a punch, but I haven't been a part of any raids in them since HD, so its possible that things are different there.

[draganil]

You've been playing with fail Captains then. They have a trait for a 6(?) target force taunt among their other AoE's and the 3x threat multiplier in yellow, or the "godmode" tree.



Go into BG and try tanking Durchest in that gear, or any other main scaled t2 raid boss. 3-6 mans don't really count, because you don't even need tanks for the majority of those. You didn't say what instances so I am just assuming that you are talking about 3-6 mans / skraids because anything else t2c is unrealistic, with what you said.

well to be honest 3x threat gen wont hold agro from good hunters. and 6 target is not continously forced agro. well, at least doesnt hold agro from my rk.

and i do tank durchest 2 times every week. with my dps gear. i dont run 3/6 mans really. and when i do i solo it. and usually run skraids with 2 people just to make it faster, they are pretty soloable too.

i dont do pvp i am a raider if thats what we are called and i am pretty happy with my warden. there is only 1 problem for me, desolation needs to effect more targets than 3 and i already posted a topic about that.

well, if you can not tank with warden right now, there is no way you can tank with a captain. guard is easy as i heard from my guard friends since they have force taunts but than again its all about skill. not your characters but your own.

[draganil]

in addition we havent give our captians a chance to tank since we have plenty tanks here, and if you can not handle durchest you need better heallers than.
and this situation is like this cuz they are very underpowered. i am not expecting to tnak durchest with dps gear when they fixed and upscaled npcs. but here and now if you are whining about warden you can not tank anything when they fixed it. and i doubt it will be cause of warden class or your own skill. just try to catch up the differences in your class.

[Miloneel]

Well to be honest 3x threat gen wont hold agro from good hunters. and 6 target is not continously forced agro. well, at least doesnt hold agro from my rk.

It's actually more than x3 threat. With 12.1 they increased threat generation from DPS, increased threat from healing and increased the extra threat you get with taunts. So with their DPS, their heals and their taunts they have more than enough to hold anything forever.
I've played with good tanking Captains in BG, OD, BfE and there is nothing Wardens can tank better than them.

and i do tank durchest 2 times every week. with my dps gear.

Yes, you can tank Durchest T2C with DPS gear at the expense of making the healer's life harder for no reason. Using DPS gear for tanking right now is totally a personal option, because you can hold aggro off anything in the game with full tanking gear.

[draganil]

It's actually more than x3 threat. With 12.1 they increased threat generation from DPS, increased threat from healing and increased the extra threat you get with taunts. So with their DPS, their heals and their taunts they have more than enough to hold anything forever.
I've played with good tanking Captains in BG, OD, BfE and there is nothing Wardens can tank better than them.


Yes, you can tank Durchest T2C with DPS gear at the expense of making the healer's life harder for no reason. Using DPS gear for tanking right now is totally a personal option, because you can hold aggro off anything in the game with full tanking gear.

i dont have that much knowladge about cappies. but how many skills do they have to hold agro of 10 targets? if yo ucant hold 10 targets at once than how can you claim you can hold agro against a fire rk?

and yes healler works harder and i work harder than instance happens faster and easier. isnt that the point really? i can go tank mode. healler can work less. and who will win there? they gave us pretty nice dps and im not afraid to use it. its like being a mini but refusing to use rezz skills.

[Miloneel]

i dont have that much knowladge about cappies. but how many skills do they have to hold agro of 10 targets? if yo ucant hold 10 targets at once than how can you claim you can hold agro against a fire rk?

How many raids the main tank needs to hold aggro of 10 mobs?

and yes healler works harder and i work harder than instance happens faster and easier. isnt that the point really?

Not in Durchest, because of the mechanics of the fight.

[draganil]

How many raids the main tank needs to hold aggro of 10 mobs?


Not in Durchest, because of the mechanics of the fight.

not 10 maybe but i think all raids has a time you need to hold agro of more than 5. bg is one of them. you get #### ton of adds in the way but the most obvious example would be the zombie orcs. they are more crowded than 10 and you dont want them to reach your dpsers. than assailment tanking happens there.

and durchest is probably the only example of that. and as you pointed out there are other raids where you need to damage the boss. last boss of bg for example. due to dots warden dps is very important there. where other classes are just looking at him you are ticking 8 to 10k crits. so you say it is useless?

[Miloneel]

not 10 maybe but i think all raids has a time you need to hold agro of more than 5. bg is one of them. you get #### ton of adds in the way but the most obvious example would be the zombie orcs. they are more crowded than 10 and you dont want them to reach your dpsers. than assailment tanking happens there.

I've done BG many times as DPSer with Captains as main tanks, and not a single pull was a problem for them. Wights neither.
Regarding using Assailment to tank the Wights, well you are missing the fun of tanking them all in melee without kiting and see them go down in no time with a couple champs in the group. If you want to speed things up even more, just pull them all with the extra Warg & Sorcerer, or even with 3 extra Armoured mobs on the top floor.

and durchest is probably the only example of that. and as you pointed out there are other raids where you need to damage the boss. last boss of bg for example. due to dots warden dps is very important there. where other classes are just looking at him you are ticking 8 to 10k crits. so you say it is useless?

Well, I was only talking about Durchest. You said you tanked Durchest twice a week in DPS gear, and I was curious why, because you are not getting any benefits from it, only more incoming damage.

There are many ways of "speeding things up". One of them is the tank not dying. Another one is being able to make bigger pulls to make the most of the mad AoE classes have now. Another one is not needing constant attention from the healers so they can focus on other classes. Or not needing the constant attention of healers so they can switch to DPS (in Lieutenant fight, for example) which makes the overall raid DPS much higher than if I used DPS gear.

[draganil]

I've done BG many times as DPSer with Captains as main tanks, and not a single pull was a problem for them. Wights neither.
Regarding using Assailment to tank the Wights, well you are missing the fun of tanking them all in melee without kiting and see them go down in no time with a couple champs in the group. If you want to speed things up even more, just pull them all with the extra Warg & Sorcerer, or even with 3 extra Armoured mobs on the top floor.



Well, I was only talking about Durchest. You said you tanked Durchest twice a week in DPS gear, and I was curious why, because you are not getting any benefits from it, only more incoming damage.

There are many ways of "speeding things up". One of them is the tank not dying. Another one is being able to make bigger pulls to make the most of the mad AoE classes have now. Another one is not needing constant attention from the healers so they can focus on other classes. Or not needing the constant attention of healers so they can switch to DPS (in Lieutenant fight, for example) which makes the overall raid DPS much higher than if I used DPS gear.

again. cappies have skills with higher than 6 max targets? can oyu explaint how can they tank it with no problem?
and we play with very few melee classes and as you know durchest doesnt kill itself. so i do the damage needed to be hit along with others. as long as im not dead what is the matter? i dont see my heallers complaining about that. and we are doing with quite smooth? is there a problem and i am not seeing it?

[draganil]

last night i had a chance to tank gotheron (OD last boos not sure if the name is right) in red traits. i did not intended to do that but forgot to switch back (was dpsing in the previous fight since a single guard can do it)

and i managed to hold agro for a while. was parsing 4k dps that might be the reason tho. and at the end guard's force taunt accidently hit it but it was close to end so he kept tanking and it went very well.

[erebusant]

what are you guys talking about with dps?

No Oathies: To Fellowship Sambrog > Sambrog (15.3s); Desolates - Dmg: 189.9K; DPS: 12,445;

That was a bit of an outlier where i might normally average 10k in a similar fight, but still... please post scenarios where ALL the other dps classes put that to shame. I'm not saying thats the greatest dps any class can do, but we're not getting left behind. If you want, I can SS some Combat Analysis from thorog runs the nest time I join a farm session on it, 2+ minute parses over 9k are pretty normal, even with multiple punts since i end up dps tanking much of it. Even with the stupidly high availability of force-taunt threat matchups I spend significant amounts of time LATE in fights with aggro while dpsing, and my gear is far from optimized.

As far as tanking goes, yes its hard to really tell where things stack up, but i'm not touching DC in instances unless I somehow need a force taunt, or am running group/raid sized content without a healer. Might does nothing to address our tanking either. Mits are capped, and even with the rather lackluster tanking gear from scaled instances, I'm quite confident I could get bpe capped between the various sources of loot.

If there are problems with the class, fix the class don't leave us in this limbo scenario thats so blatantly open to unintended outcomes.

Exactly what build and rotation are you using that gets you to 10-12K dps?

[erebusant]

Mathematically, I can hit ~16643 block rating, with no block derived from items or legacies (my warden has 170 might passively thanks to might tomes).

This SS shows what I would wear, if I were so inclined to max out my block:


Things missing from this that I've included in the 16643 figure include 2x380 block rating for LI titles, and ~1300 for the shield mastery legacy, that I don't have, but have confirmed the rating on a second age lvl 95 LI (the person had +135x to rating but had put a couple points into the legacy).

The earring was a quest reward, so its unlikely if you don't already have it you could acquire it, but the item isn't exactly make or break as you cans see by the numbers.
There is also a purple agility bracelet that has dropped for me several times from the Westfold WBs with somewhere between 600-800 block (that I've destroyed/sold, so can't link).

We all know parry and evade are cap-able through armour and cloak bonuses, thus not requiring WoS.

The above does also show how sad an itemization state we're in, given that I have to ignore several pieces of theoretically BiS HD BB jewelry (necklace, wrist) and resort to quest rewards and the skirmish camp for specific items, cannot get a single piece of tanking jewelry of value from scaled instances, and appropriately stat-ed medium armour or a cloak flat out does not exist. But it can be done.

Forgot to add, in case you come up ~300 block short of my numbers, I did have "stand your ground" traited when i did the math.

I'm not certain I would classify the gear listed above as "agility based gear". Appears more along the lines of "tank based vs. dps based"...

[rannion]

I'm not certain I would classify the gear listed above as "agility based gear". Appears more along the lines of "tank based vs. dps based"...

You're missing the point, I think.. the discussion is mostly about the fact that there is very little vit+agi (i.e., tank gear for wrd) that also has decent amounts of block+parry, and oodles with p/e, so that wrds could easily be forced to use vit+might gear that is no longer supposed to give you a phys mastery bonus, but does because the might contribution to mastery has not been phased out yet, even though it was supposed to be phased out with the release of U11.

[Darlgon]

well to be honest 3x threat gen wont hold agro from good hunters. and 6 target is not continously forced agro. well, at least doesnt hold agro from my rk.

Sorry.. This comment made me laugh, HARD. GOOD hunters will NEVER HAVE AGGRO, because they know how to manage their DPS to keep the mobs on the tank.

[draganil]

Sorry.. This comment made me laugh, HARD. GOOD hunters will NEVER HAVE AGGRO, because they know how to manage their DPS to keep the mobs on the tank.

what i think is hunter should dps as much as they can tank should tank as good as they can healler heal as much as they can and that is how you run things faster.
dps deals less damage tank deals less damage less threat heallers heal less and why do you even playing this game? not as a dps but even as a tank i want my dps to go all out since i can hold agro.
being good is about your team not about you.

[Kander]

what i think is hunter should dps as much as they can tank should tank as good as they can healler heal as much as they can and that is how you run things faster.
dps deals less damage tank deals less damage less threat heallers heal less and why do you even playing this game? not as a dps but even as a tank i want my dps to go all out since i can hold agro.
being good is about your team not about you.

Completely agree, a good Hunter knows how not to get aggro, but there are some DPS races instances in which they will certainly need to do their max dps. And if a tank can hold aggro always, they should always be doing their best dps.