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  1. #1

    End to the Might "grace period"?

    Title kinda says it all.

    Can we expect an end to the grace period where might and agility both continue to benefit warden mastery any time soon? We're closing in on a full calendar year now.

  2. #2
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    why?
    that would put us even more behind the other dps classes.

    our main role tanking ability is far behind of guardian and captains already.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by MeLoWaR View Post
    why?
    that would put us even more behind the other dps classes.

    our main role tanking ability is far behind of guardian and captains already.
    Agree. Even now (with allowing might and agi both benefit mastery) we deal way less dps than any other class and only DoT based which is so bad for Big Battle and Enemies with low morale.
    In tank part we're far behind guardian and captains (and behind most champions too, don't forget). With all these armours of full vitality even in dps gear, every class got mitigation maxed on dps. So guard damage geared/traited got way more survivability than warden (it's a 20% more mitigations and similar or more avoidance).
    Anyways just think of the content: With really Overpowered gear and stats compared to mobs, wardens are in a survivability balance with mobs damage, while guardians and captains are way better at that. If they scale damage and boost enemies to make content not this easy, wardens tank traited would have really bad problems to survive against single target being really common to get 1 shotted in hits that would get guardians or captains just half morale.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by MeLoWaR View Post
    why?
    that would put us even more behind the other dps classes.

    our main role tanking ability is far behind of guardian and captains already.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Agree. Even now (with allowing might and agi both benefit mastery) we deal way less dps than any other class and only DoT based which is so bad for Big Battle and Enemies with low morale.
    In tank part we're far behind guardian and captains (and behind most champions too, don't forget). With all these armours of full vitality even in dps gear, every class got mitigation maxed on dps. So guard damage geared/traited got way more survivability than warden (it's a 20% more mitigations and similar or more avoidance).
    Anyways just think of the content: With really Overpowered gear and stats compared to mobs, wardens are in a survivability balance with mobs damage, while guardians and captains are way better at that. If they scale damage and boost enemies to make content not this easy, wardens tank traited would have really bad problems to survive against single target being really common to get 1 shotted in hits that would get guardians or captains just half morale.
    what are you guys talking about with dps?

    No Oathies: To Fellowship Sambrog > Sambrog (15.3s); Desolates - Dmg: 189.9K; DPS: 12,445;

    That was a bit of an outlier where i might normally average 10k in a similar fight, but still... please post scenarios where ALL the other dps classes put that to shame. I'm not saying thats the greatest dps any class can do, but we're not getting left behind. If you want, I can SS some Combat Analysis from thorog runs the nest time I join a farm session on it, 2+ minute parses over 9k are pretty normal, even with multiple punts since i end up dps tanking much of it. Even with the stupidly high availability of force-taunt threat matchups I spend significant amounts of time LATE in fights with aggro while dpsing, and my gear is far from optimized.

    As far as tanking goes, yes its hard to really tell where things stack up, but i'm not touching DC in instances unless I somehow need a force taunt, or am running group/raid sized content without a healer. Might does nothing to address our tanking either. Mits are capped, and even with the rather lackluster tanking gear from scaled instances, I'm quite confident I could get bpe capped between the various sources of loot.

    If there are problems with the class, fix the class don't leave us in this limbo scenario thats so blatantly open to unintended outcomes.

  5. #5
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    If the grace period would end we would need agility to give at least x 2 block rating.
    I already take considerably more damage than a guard or captain.
    It doesen´t matter much because mobs are literally dead before they reach me but after rebalancing wardens will be one hit wonder again.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Skirata View Post
    If the grace period would end we would need agility to give at least x 2 block rating.
    I already take considerably more damage than a guard or captain.
    It doesen´t matter much because mobs are literally dead before they reach me but after rebalancing wardens will be one hit wonder again.
    In fact it's not hard at all to receive 10k hits and 15k dev hits from Durchest on a warden while guardians and captains are receiving those same hits with a magnitude of 5-6k for normal hits and 8k for dev hits, that's a huge difference. Right now it's not a problem but when they balance it out again, hits that will be 10k on guardians will mean almost 20k on wardens.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    In fact it's not hard at all to receive 10k hits and 15k dev hits from Durchest on a warden while guardians and captains are receiving those same hits with a magnitude of 5-6k for normal hits and 8k for dev hits, that's a huge difference. Right now it's not a problem but when they balance it out again, hits that will be 10k on guardians will mean almost 20k on wardens.
    Completely agree, and seeing how Guardians can get -100% incoming damage (70% base, 10%-20% skill/capt and 10% from a tome), permanent single target force taunt, juggernaut, etc... yeah. Captains/Guardians are the best right now.

  8. #8
    I understand all the concerns about warden survivability compared to the heavies, but what does any of it have to do with might?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Others View Post
    Worries about survivablity.
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I understand all the concerns about warden survivability compared to the heavies, but what does any of it have to do with might?
    For those who missed the Might thing, Might grace period is only about Might giving Physical Mastery, which ONLY AFFECTS OUTGOING DAMAGE. Might will still affect Block when the grace period is over.

  10. #10
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    I do know how the might changes work its about having to compensate the missing pys mastery = threat with even more agility
    and that will lead to a massive loss of block rating.

  11. #11
    I hope they don't change it, at least not before they change some stats on items or something else to get more Block.
    When tanking right now, the only way of keeping Block at decent levels is wearing Might jewelry. That's only fine because we don't lose Physical Mastery with Might.

    We barely have any Agi+Block items to use at all. Take a look at the instance drop list, we have 2 pieces of Agi + Block combination, and 1 of them only gives 280 Block, so it's basically 1 piece with good Block worth using (BG ring). The take a look at Guardians and Captains drops, they have at least 15 pieces with Might + Evade to choose from from the same list. Seems like someone forgot about Wardens needs again.

    Either they'd need to change some stats from Evade to Block, or make Agi give x2 Block as suggested, or leave it as it is. If they don't change anything and end the grace period, we would have to choose between having low Block (more incoming damage) or low PM (worse threat).

  12. #12
    I don't have much of any tanking gear atm since there is no need, but having done the math, you can cap b/p/e with only agility based gear, appropriate LIs, Shield Mastery, and 1 persevere line buff active. Thats TWO self-buff skills to cap all avoidances, which with the current state of aggro should be no problem for people to keep up. When was the last time we could cap bpe with 2 buffs, SoM? Might just makes the itemization easier and leaves more room for crit rating (or crit D i suppose, though I'm not in love with the stat after basic levels).

    The whole system for warden tanking, buff values, buff interactions, buff durations, traits, and itemization are incredibly poorly done at this point, and do need to be addressed. And the potential of the heavy classes has likely exacerbated the longstanding weaknesses of this class, if content ever gets scaled to what those tanks are capable of. But to say you will lose anything required to do your job in ANY role by ending this silliness is flat out inaccurate.
    Last edited by spelunker; Jan 05 2014 at 05:02 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I don't have much of any tanking gear atm since there is no need, but having done the math, you can cap b/p/e with only agility based gear, appropriate LIs, Shield Mastery, and 1 persevere line buff active. Thats TWO self-buff skills to cap all avoidances, which with the current state of aggro should be no problem for people to keep up. When was the last time we could cap bpe with 2 buffs, SoM? Might just makes the itemization easier and leaves more room for crit rating (or crit D i suppose, though I'm not in love with the stat after basic levels).

    The whole system for warden tanking, buff values, buff interactions, buff durations, traits, and itemization are incredibly poorly done at this point, and do need to be addressed. And the potential of the heavy classes has likely exacerbated the longstanding weaknesses of this class, if content ever gets scaled to what those tanks are capable of. But to say you will lose anything required to do your job in ANY role by ending this silliness is flat out inaccurate.
    How do you cap BPE with 2 buffs?
    You cap it following the whole Persevere line + SM, that's 4 buffs you have to keep up, not 2, at least in my experience. I have all the gear needed to max out Block, except LI Block titles, where I prefer the Crit Defense ones which I find very helpful in fights like BG or BfE.
    Or also 1 SoD and 2 Persevere buffs + SM. Still 4 buffs though.

    That's 1 more buff I need to keep up compared to ROR (SM/DoW/CoS), and now with shorter durations which means I have less time to do other stuff in between.
    And the most fun part is, after all this non stop buffing and rebuffing, even if you time it perfect and the fight allows you to keep the buffs up, you end up having a lot less BPE than other tanks have passively.

    I agree with you that the actual Warden is very poorly done.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Miloneel View Post
    How do you cap BPE with 2 buffs?
    You cap it following the whole Persevere line + SM, that's 4 buffs you have to keep up, not 2, at least in my experience. I have all the gear needed to max out Block, except LI Block titles, where I prefer the Crit Defense ones which I find very helpful in fights like BG or BfE.
    Or also 1 SoD and 2 Persevere buffs + SM. Still 4 buffs though.

    That's 1 more buff I need to keep up compared to ROR (SM/DoW/CoS), and now with shorter durations which means I have less time to do other stuff in between.
    And the most fun part is, after all this non stop buffing and rebuffing, even if you time it perfect and the fight allows you to keep the buffs up, you end up having a lot less BPE than other tanks have passively.

    I agree with you that the actual Warden is very poorly done.
    Mathematically, I can hit ~16643 block rating, with no block derived from items or legacies (my warden has 170 might passively thanks to might tomes).

    This SS shows what I would wear, if I were so inclined to max out my block:


    Things missing from this that I've included in the 16643 figure include 2x380 block rating for LI titles, and ~1300 for the shield mastery legacy, that I don't have, but have confirmed the rating on a second age lvl 95 LI (the person had +135x to rating but had put a couple points into the legacy).

    The earring was a quest reward, so its unlikely if you don't already have it you could acquire it, but the item isn't exactly make or break as you cans see by the numbers.
    There is also a purple agility bracelet that has dropped for me several times from the Westfold WBs with somewhere between 600-800 block (that I've destroyed/sold, so can't link).

    We all know parry and evade are cap-able through armour and cloak bonuses, thus not requiring WoS.

    The above does also show how sad an itemization state we're in, given that I have to ignore several pieces of theoretically BiS HD BB jewelry (necklace, wrist) and resort to quest rewards and the skirmish camp for specific items, cannot get a single piece of tanking jewelry of value from scaled instances, and appropriately stat-ed medium armour or a cloak flat out does not exist. But it can be done.

    Forgot to add, in case you come up ~300 block short of my numbers, I did have "stand your ground" traited when i did the math.
    Last edited by spelunker; Jan 05 2014 at 11:34 AM.

  15. #15
    Funny, I logged unto the forums to post a thread about PM from might... I guess our dev had no time for it, hah? Please, remove PM/TM from might.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Mathematically, I can hit ~16643 block rating, with no block derived from items or legacies (my warden has 170 might passively thanks to might tomes).

    This SS shows what I would wear, if I were so inclined to max out my block:


    Things missing from this that I've included in the 16643 figure include 2x380 block rating for LI titles, and ~1300 for the shield mastery legacy, that I don't have, but have confirmed the rating on a second age lvl 95 LI (the person had +135x to rating but had put a couple points into the legacy).

    The earring was a quest reward, so its unlikely if you don't already have it you could acquire it, but the item isn't exactly make or break as you cans see by the numbers.
    There is also a purple agility bracelet that has dropped for me several times from the Westfold WBs with somewhere between 600-800 block (that I've destroyed/sold, so can't link).

    We all know parry and evade are cap-able through armour and cloak bonuses, thus not requiring WoS.

    The above does also show how sad an itemization state we're in, given that I have to ignore several pieces of theoretically BiS HD BB jewelry (necklace, wrist) and resort to quest rewards and the skirmish camp for specific items, cannot get a single piece of tanking jewelry of value from scaled instances, and appropriately stat-ed medium armour or a cloak flat out does not exist. But it can be done.

    Forgot to add, in case you come up ~300 block short of my numbers, I did have "stand your ground" traited when i did the math.
    Thanks for sharing that possible build, Spelunker.
    It's definitely interesting, and I see I totally missed that earring from the quests. Besides that, personally there are things I'm not sure I see right to lose in exchange of capping Block with Agi pieces (meaning we should have the options to do it without losing other stuff), like losing 20% Partial Parry & Evade (from Relics) and quite a lot of Crit D (LI titles & jewellry). You get some nice Inc Healing too though, that's something I want to try out and see what works best.

    Also in the build I have right now I use at least 2 Might + Finesse pieces which grants me a lot of extra Block Rating and Physical Mastery and enough Finesse (which I think it's vital, specially in AoE) so mobs don't Resist/BPE that often your threat.
    Another thing I'd hate to change is not having to spend any points on Stand Your Ground to reach further down on the Red Tree.

    In short, I think being able to wear Might pieces allows me to cap Block as easily without sacrificing other stats I think are important, like Finesse or Crit Defense. To cap Block with Agi pieces I'd have to lose stuff I find important for tanking, basically because there are not good options for us.
    This would of course be solved by polishing stats on items, adding more Block and Crit Defense options instead the constant Evade stat we have everywhere, which I think it's the root of the problem.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Skirata View Post
    If the grace period would end we would need agility to give at least x 2 block rating.
    I already take considerably more damage than a guard or captain.
    It doesen´t matter much because mobs are literally dead before they reach me but after rebalancing wardens will be one hit wonder again.
    Agreed 100% with the Block issue. Currently Block is my second highest un-buffed mitigation. Parry is lower by about 85 points ha ha. I've made an effort to keep some Might on my gear for the time being just to give me a boost in my Block rating but once the grace period is complete they hopefully do something about the Block rating that was given to us from Might.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    In tank part we're far behind guardian and captains (and behind most champions too, don't forget)
    I take it you don't play champ then? ST champ dps is... well... lets just say it takes a while to kill stuff.

  19. #19
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    Block?

    Because the true master of the shield is a warden off-course



    We can keep that up, is just stupid the way to do that

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Saiffyros View Post
    Because the true master of the shield is a warden off-course



    We can keep that up, is just stupid the way to do that
    stance swap ftw.

  21. #21
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    yes, the bônus of 5% stack, but is only 12 sec and be swaping stances is not cool. If we have an easy way to reach that 5% and a longer duration on it + change that + 380 evade on war-cry for 5% evade I would be very happy.
    Last edited by Saiffyros; Jan 10 2014 at 11:37 AM.

  22. #22
    I remember guards using agility pieces through RoI and RoR pushing for that extra evade, I dont see where the problem lies in a warden using a might piece without having more mastery.
    And lets be completely honest here - there's barely any content that warrants a real tank, so who cares if you can't tank well.

    As for the dps...
    the freep characters have to level, this involves killing mobs, everyone needs to be able to do damage, true. Over the years, however, the number of simple pick thing up & carry it to other place quests seems to have increased, there's more exp boosting options than before as well and they are more available (store, lboxes, ah, 1 with dp, vip bonus).
    Leveling is hardly an issue for any class I would say. When I leveled my burglar I used starting LIs until I got to 65 when i switched for a 65 FA I had lying around, didnt bother changing any legacies, they were all good for a swap LI and got to the level cap at the time (75), similarly been leveling a bit on hunter in HD, have a lvl 75 SA bow, killing mobs is no Issue at lvl 83.

    When everyone can be a dps class, what's the point of the classes with lower dps? Why not all play fire rks, burgs or whatever seems strongest right now? Did most people who leveled their warden before HD really level it thinking - I am gonna wreck faces with my awesome dps.
    My point is, there's not justification for the high DPS most classes are gifted with.

    Don't ask for compensation in a way that makes you comparable to EVERYONE else, ask for content that would allow for uniqueness.

    It is high time classes get balanced again, dps scaled down for everyone, heals lowered and npc damage increased...

  23. #23
    While I absolutely agree with your post...
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifroth View Post
    Did most people who leveled their warden before HD really level it thinking - I am gonna wreck faces with my awesome dps.
    This is exactly why I leveled my first warden, which was mid-MoM.
    emphasis on bullets 1 and 2


    Now it took me a grand total of 10 levels out of the intro back then to realize that wouldn't be the case, but that was my intention at the time. Luckily Graalx2's brilliant design and gambit system kept me going, and try as they might turbine hasn't quite ruined it yet.
    Last edited by spelunker; Jan 10 2014 at 12:12 PM.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    While I absolutely agree with your post...

    This is exactly why I leveled my first warden, which was mid-MoM.
    emphasis on bullets 1 and 2

    Now it took me a grand total of 10 levels out of the intro back then to realize that wouldn't be the case, but that was my intention at the time. Luckily Graalx2's brilliant design and gambit system kept me going, and try as they might turbine hasn't quite ruined it yet.
    Every time I see that splash, I cry a little inside. "Challenge yourself".. okay. I really hope they go back and reintroduce SOME of the elements that the Orion(?) changes brought, with all the stance swapping and reflects we could keep up, among other things, was the main part that made me feel good about playing the class. Now I just stack might gear and win. Not very rewarding.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kander View Post
    Agree. Even now (with allowing might and agi both benefit mastery) we deal way less dps than any other class and only DoT based which is so bad for Big Battle and Enemies with low morale.
    In tank part we're far behind guardian and captains (and behind most champions too, don't forget). With all these armours of full vitality even in dps gear, every class got mitigation maxed on dps. So guard damage geared/traited got way more survivability than warden (it's a 20% more mitigations and similar or more avoidance).
    Anyways just think of the content: With really Overpowered gear and stats compared to mobs, wardens are in a survivability balance with mobs damage, while guardians and captains are way better at that. If they scale damage and boost enemies to make content not this easy, wardens tank traited would have really bad problems to survive against single target being really common to get 1 shotted in hits that would get guardians or captains just half morale.
    well... its quite different in my case.
    im tanking far better than captains since they can only tank 1 target. that is the first thing i was going to say. and in addition guards are ebtter but they are meant to be better than us. they have force taunts 100% of the time.

    and second thing i disagree with you is dps. my desolation's dots crits like 8 to 10k its raw damage is 4k. and with 313 3131 gambits and desolation im easily outdps hunters in "blue traits" while "tanking"
    in red traits its not much different dps output differance is like 10% or less. and that example on single target. if there is 2 or 3 target to use desolation and 313-3131 with battle memory dps is dramatically high.

    also in survival park while tanking. you got DC for 12 sec every 20 sec. i am currently tanking with agi gear and around 21k raw morale (around 25 with buffs i think) and i am doing good. i dont die i hold agro and i do #### ton of dps.
    in my opinion the key is keeping NS always up and using DC as much as possible. if not, its a med armour class you dont have lotsa options there.

    and in big battles, no tank needed there. but if you do than you can. and dps wise your group shouldnt need your help but if they do, you need ranged gambits if you cant keep up with them. i always deal with siege equipment so i dont have much experiance there.

 

 
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