Last Stand should be always availble

[gripply]

I'm saying exactly what I said: you can't have everything. This has nothing to do with how the class should have "obviouisly been". There has been a lot of firepower and healing power added at the redesign (something you didn't have before, and can't have at the same time -- notice a trend there?). The cost for that is having each role (healer, dps, tank) packaged tighter and only available separately, for the most part. This includes making Last Stand available only as a part of the "survivability" compartment. Makes quite a good deal of sense, whether or not you think it's a good direction to take.

The flexibility of the class is that it can be traited squishy and squishy healer classes like Mini also have a survivability ability like LS. What part of this is unclear to you?

Nothing to do with redesign or firepower. Mini's have also been majorly upgraded DPS-wise, all classes have. Are you saying they should take away the feign death from Mini's because they got more firepower too?

[Bezmer]

The flexibility of the class is that it can be traited squishy and squishy healer classes like Mini also have a survivability ability like LS. What part of this is unclear to you?

Nothing to do with redesign or firepower. Mini's have also been majorly upgraded DPS-wise, all classes have. Are you saying they should take away the feign death from Mini's because they got more firepower too?

The Captain has a survivability skill. It's called Heavy Armor. Also, I have got no idea where you're getting all this "traiting squishy" nonsense. A blue-traited captain is anything but (unless, of course, you do "traiting squishy" by putting light armor on).

Also, no-one has "taken" Last Stand away from you. Spend some points in the yellow line, and you can have it 100% of the time.

[Arabani]

Also, no-one has "taken" Last Stand away from you. Spend some points in the yellow line, and you can have it 100% of the time.

You can't have LS in other specs. Please make a captain and read his skills and traits

[Bezmer]

You can't have LS in other specs. Please make a captain and read his skills and traits

Not sure how this contradicts what I said. You can have Last Stand 100% of the time -- it's tough luck that you'll miss on some of the shiny new goodies you get when you spec Red and Blue but, well, life is tough.

And also re: the flexibility of the class -- the flexibility of the captain has nothing to do with whether he can trait "squishy" or not. The flexibility of the class consists of retaining the ability to use its core function (buffing the fellowship) while at the same time being a functional healer/tank/DPS, depending on player preference.

[Almagnus1]

If you are desperately in need of Last Stand when you aren't tanking or in the 'Moors, then you are doing something wrong.

It's fine as is.

[Calta]

The flexibility of the class is that it can be traited squishy and squishy healer classes like Mini also have a survivability ability like LS. What part of this is unclear to you?

Nothing to do with redesign or firepower. Mini's have also been majorly upgraded DPS-wise, all classes have. Are you saying they should take away the feign death from Mini's because they got more firepower too?

I don't think you have have ever played a real squishy. A captain can stand in a pool of fire acid or whatever and survive. A RK/mini cannot. A captain can withstand aoe attacks from Dargnakh for example, that one shot a minstrel or RK, at range. (even now). Captains' armour stats are 3-4 times that of a minstrel/rk. Their mits are double a minstrels/rks. (40% v 70% iirc). Oh and feign death is the only aggro management tool minstrels have at the moment. It has little to do with the curent dps levels of minstrels in the current PVE content-it is vital as a survival tool for minstrel healers and the only one we have if we pull healing aggro. Our bubble doesn't protect us from bosses attacks and our armour is tissue paper compaed to yours. I'd swap my light armour and feign death for your heavy armour and mits in a boss fight any day-at least I could stay up and heal myself or fight back......as would many a healing RK, I suspect, if they even had a feign death skill to begin with.

It's a pity, that trait trees have brought these changes to our classes, but please don't compare the survivabilty of heavy armour wearing, high mits, yellow captain to my light armor wearing mini/rk-it just doesn't fly.

Glad they didn't go whole hog and put our only remaining rez in the healing line, which would have been as far as I can see just as logical and perhaps also you would defend? .

I understand LS is a captain skill that represents the classes role play/vision, just as 'rally' our in combat rez, represented the minstrels abilty to lift morale of others even on the brink of death. We lost that group role in in 2 out of three 3 specs-and it's not avaialble in hybrid builds either, due to the points being top of our single healing line. We were told that was our 'hard choice'. I guess this is yours. ./sad

[DelgonTheWise]

If you are desperately in need of Last Stand when you aren't tanking or in the 'Moors, then you are doing something wrong.

It's fine as is.

Partially last stand, but mostly SoTD, are what locks Capts into Yellow in the moors. That doesn't strike me personally as a good thing, not that Turbine cares/balances around the moors. I'd like to be able to trait blue there, but it doesn't make sense...

And LS/IHW was a signature ability of captains, which didn't require that they be "tanking". Was often used in Watcher, Durchest, at end of boss fights if the group was going down, etc to help out the fellowship.

Not saying it is the end of the world, just unfortunate in my opinion that Captains ability to have the "emergency recovery" role is now mostly relegated to the yellow line...

[Elrantiri]

Partially last stand, but mostly SoTD, are what locks Capts into Yellow in the moors. That doesn't strike me personally as a good thing, not that Turbine cares/balances around the moors. I'd like to be able to trait blue there, but it doesn't make sense...

And LS/IHW was a signature ability of captains, which didn't require that they be "tanking". Was often used in Watcher, Durchest, at end of boss fights if the group was going down, etc to help out the fellowship.

Not saying it is the end of the world, just unfortunate in my opinion that Captains ability to have the "emergency recovery" role is now mostly relegated to the yellow line...

Indeed, but I still think LS and IHW should either:
1. Be a "package deal", that the trait for unlocking IHW also unlocks LS or
2. That maxing IHW unlocks a trait for LS (and perhaps make LS ranked as well, redirecting 10%/30%/50% of the damage or even 10/20/30/40/50 and make one of the current LoM 3/5 rank trait a set bonus instead)

That way you have to invest into the tree to get the combo in LtC/HoH, but it will be available. Giving LS for free seems unnecessary to me.

[SapienChavez]

ima jump in here with my own, slightly related rant/issue:

capns should have *some access* to the core of all trait line, in each of the other two trait lines.

now, we effectively do for DPS and Heals... but not so much for tanking.

I can respectably heal or DPS in any of the three trait line, however, you cant really tank, or even really peel a single mob, wen blue/red.

soooo, I think capns should have access to, at least, a force taunt in blue and red trait line.

gimme Threatening Shout in all lines, please!



as to the topic, weve kept our battle-res and all our old/basic heals with the new system, so I understand the point OP is making and agree. your own personal skill is moot to the conversation of core-capn-mechanics.... and criticizing others' "skill" is just a cheap way to derail the topic and evade the point.

im ok without it, as I honestly would forget to use all the time (but that was me). but, I have been using it more often recently playing yellow... was awesome in Barrow Downs Survival yesterday.

[Elrantiri]

soooo, I think capns should have access to, at least, a force taunt in blue and red trait line.

You can still get Grave Wound force taunt no matter which specialization you choose. It's the trait just below Noble Mark and it's called Demand Attention.

[Bezmer]

capns should have *some access* to the core of all trait line, in each of the other two trait lines.

now, we effectively do for DPS and Heals... but not so much for tanking.

I can respectably heal or DPS in any of the three trait line, however, you cant really tank, or even really peel a single mob, wen blue/red.

The way I see it, the early levels of the R, B, and Y lines provide (respectively) some extra healing, dps, and survivability to a Captain that specialized in something else. That's not bad, but I would agree that a B/R captain should have a way to peel and hold a single mob, in a manner similar to how we did pre-HD with Noble Mark.

Perhaps it's time to strip Noble Mark of its extremely overpowered healing effect, and replace it with a similarly working threat effect? Perhaps something that decreases fellowship threat and increases the captain's threat over time (or with each hit)?

[SapienChavez]

You can still get Grave Wound force taunt no matter which specialization you choose. It's the trait just below Noble Mark and it's called Demand Attention.

fair point, but im saying by default... that is too expensive to be a viable options. still, thank you, as im always down with a work-around.


also, I don't really mean the "survivability" aspect when I say tanking, as we have that in all builds and even with NO build! Im talking more the agro management side of tanking.

I still think a basic Threatening Shout, available in all trait-lines, is the best option.

[Bezmer]

also, I don't really mean the "survivability" aspect when I say tanking, as we have that in all builds and even with NO build! Im talking more the agro management side of tanking.

I understand that, I'm just saying it's the way the trait lines are laid out, with the yellow providing "beefiness" rather than threat management down low.

I still think a basic Threatening Shout, available in all trait-lines, is the best option.

I guess I just liked the Captain's ability to pull a single mob and go "mano-a-mano" with it, while being all but guaranteed to hold aggro in the process ("Let's dance, you and I"). to me, it's not a bad "semi-core" mechanic, which is readily accessible in yellow, and accessible with some cross-spec otherwise.

[Elrantiri]

fair point, but im saying by default... that is too expensive to be a viable options. still, thank you, as im always down with a work-around.

Well, I wouldn't mind having it moved so it's on the same level as Noble Mark.

also, I don't really mean the "survivability" aspect when I say tanking, as we have that in all builds and even with NO build! Im talking more the agro management side of tanking.

I still think a basic Threatening Shout, available in all trait-lines, is the best option.

Perhaps. I don't find myself having to tank 1 mob while DPSing or healing so I might not be the right person to comment.

[SapienChavez]

Perhaps. I don't find myself having to tank 1 mob while DPSing or healing so I might not be the right person to comment.

I don't really either... just the occasional "peel" off a minstrel or hunter, which I see as one of the capns core swing-man responsibilities.

this is all in the spirit of "having basic core-trait-line-mechanics available in all builds," by default.

we can heal well in all builds. we can dps well in all builds. we can survive well in all builds. we can not hold agro in all builds.



again, while I appreciate that I *can* trait for a force taunt in any build, I feel it should be part of the core, nothing-traited, base "stuff" that capns have. course, we never had one by default before... so, theres that

[Bezmer]

again, while I appreciate that I *can* trait for a force taunt in any build, I feel it should be part of the core, nothing-traited, base "stuff" that capns have. course, we never had one by default before... so, theres that

We can? What am I missing about out skills, I thought Threatening Shout was gated behind yellow spec.

I apparently missed Demand Attention ... although going 22 points deep in yellow is a huge investment when you're not specced there.

[Elrantiri]

We can? What am I missing about out skills, I thought Threatening Shout was gated behind yellow spec.

You can still get it from Grave Wound:

You can still get Grave Wound force taunt no matter which specialization you choose. It's the trait just below Noble Mark and it's called Demand Attention.

[gripply]

The tone of this thread is unnecessarily scornful. To set the record straight, my main is a Mini and I leveled her when you had to whittle enemies down slowly because you had zero dps at low levels. She wasn't any use until she had 10's and 12's in her virtues. Second, this is my SECOND Captain... the first being years ago before any of these changes were made. I started a new one on a server I play on more often now. Third, what I mean by "traited squishy" is the loss of morale buff in anything other than yellow spec, which is painful at lower levels. No matter how much armor you wear, those mobs ALSO have armor reducing effects, weapons and skills. And if you add to that, interrupts and slows, you can die easy even yellow spec'd if you're level 40-44 in Annuminas. Try it.

Then if you were to abandon the yellow spec and go red or blue, the loss of LS would be ever more painful. That's why it makes sense to have it in all specs.

I wasn't suggesting that Mini's shouldn't have an LS-like ability, I was pointing out that it's absurd to have that ability be gated in the Cappy. I must be right because the conversation has now changed from "because he has more dps" to "because he has better armor." The mini has way better evade type defenses. All light armor wearers have better defenses at the block/parry/evade stats. What's next on your list of excuses for not giving Cappy's LS in all builds? I'm still not convinced that there's any good reason.

This thread is about LS being available. That's what I was replying to. Sorry you don't like my opinion, but I'm not changing it to suit your pleasure. Give me a logical reason to change it.

[Bezmer]

The tone of this thread is unnecessarily scornful. To set the record straight, my main is a Mini and I leveled her when you had to whittle enemies down slowly because you had zero dps at low levels. She wasn't any use until she had 10's and 12's in her virtues. Second, this is my SECOND Captain... the first being years ago before any of these changes were made. I started a new one on a server I play on more often now. Third, what I mean by "traited squishy" is the loss of morale buff in anything other than yellow spec, which is painful at lower levels. No matter how much armor you wear, those mobs ALSO have armor reducing effects, weapons and skills. And if you add to that, interrupts and slows, you can die easy even yellow spec'd if you're level 40-44 in Annuminas. Try it.

Then if you were to abandon the yellow spec and go red or blue, the loss of LS would be ever more painful. That's why it makes sense to have it in all specs.

I wasn't suggesting that Mini's shouldn't have an LS-like ability, I was pointing out that it's absurd to have that ability be gated in the Cappy. I must be right because the conversation has now changed from "because he has more dps" to "because he has better armor." The mini has way better evade type defenses. All light armor wearers have better defenses at the block/parry/evade stats. What's next on your list of excuses for not giving Cappy's LS in all builds? I'm still not convinced that there's any good reason.

This thread is about LS being available. That's what I was replying to. Sorry you don't like my opinion, but I'm not changing it to suit your pleasure. Give me a logical reason to change it.

Got it. "Not being squishy" appears to mean being unkillable. Sorry if the tone is somewhat scornful, but you practically walked into that one.

And yes, you can die quite easily in yellow at level 44. Mostly because the yellow line is not very effective at low levels. Try blue, it works considerably better -- even without Last Stand.

[gripply]

Got it. "Not being squishy" appears to mean being unkillable. Sorry if the tone is somewhat scornful, but you practically walked into that one.

And yes, you can die quite easily in yellow at level 44. Mostly because the yellow line is not very effective at low levels. Try blue, it works considerably better -- even without Last Stand.

I didn't start this thread. I merely supported the person who did start it.

I wasn't the first to make the comparison to Mini's. But since I play Mini, I supported the comparison. I toyed with RNK, but honestly, they really are unkillable, so I don't see the comparison there. I lost interest in RNK because of their ability to play versus Red-con mobs at any level. Yawn.

You're mistaken if you think I'm asking to be unkillable. I'm asking for a classic Captain skill to remain available. That's all anyone here is asking. But I guess you've managed to intimidate everyone else into shutting up. It won't work. You have no arguments except scorn. I hear no logic coming from you. So far on my side I have:

1. Other healing classes have a "suvive for a brief time" skill that isn't gated by spec

2. Other healing classes have also had dps buff

3. Other healing classes have different ways to survive besides heavy armor (heavy armor doesn't make or break survivability)

4. One measly "oh snap" button isn't going to make you unkillable, especially on the long cooldown it has

You can disagree with any of this in a logical manner anytime you like. I'm waiting on that.

---------I'll reply separately to the yellow spec at low levels issue...

Are you playing a low level captain right now? Or is what you're saying a theory? Because I am playing a level 40ish captain right now and what I say is not a theory. I am unkillable anywhere on the map at appropriate levels of mobs, except Annuminas where the mobs can vary from level 38 normal to 49 signature, and they're not separate mobs... the 49 sig's wander considerably and often right into your fight with 3-5 level 44 signatures. In yellow spec I'm surviving fine, until I get hammered by one of the wandering purples as I call them, because at first, they were purple to me. I'm not sure there are too many places on the map that offer mixed level creatures like that. It's one of the things that has always made Annuminas fun for me. But it puts the lie to the theory that captains are unkillable in ANY spec.

I'll try your theory of blue spec, but I can't see how losing the bleed buff (which I've used to excellent effect to do significant damage to these tough creatures), morale buff, and LS is going to help. I can heal myself just fine and I'm good at keeping the herald and Olcalwe up by controlling threat. Losing control of threat would mean recasting my herald during battle more often I think, and I rely on those herald heals in this area. Still, I'm not hardheaded... I'll try what you suggest.

Also don't make the mistaken assumption that just because I support the keeping of LS in all builds, I am somehow "having trouble with survivability.' Because I am having no problems at all. I support the idea of keeping LS in all builds because there is no reason to drop it. It won't make or break your survival in a place like Annuminas anyway... THAT'S my point. You won't be unkillable just because you have one more uh-oh button on a long cooldown.

Update --------------

OK, I tried it your way and all it confirmed is that you should never make assumptions, you should simply test it and see. It was a bum steer. Blue made me die and die quickly. Even if I concentrated on all the heals and auto-heals, my health went down and stayed down, then maybe because my herald would throw a mercy heal, it would go up for a second before I'd die. One stun and it was all over. Previously I could survive stuns. After a few deaths I decided to see the difference on mobs I can just spank in yellow spec... the tomb robbers near the revive point.

Even the tomb robbers had my health down to 1/3 in blue spec if there were 3-5 of them on me and my herald. My herald also died as predicted, much more regularly. The tomb robbers didn't kill me, but they hurt me and I ended up waiting after battles for heals to take effect and cures before moving on. Heal spec is probably better as your captain grows up, but right now, it's too wimpy. Plus all my devastates went from 400 to 150. Battles lasted longer, more cures, more stuns... end result, predictable.

[Bezmer]

OK, I tried it your way and all it confirmed is that you should never make assumptions, you should simply test it and see. It was a bum steer. Blue made me die and die quickly. Even if I concentrated on all the heals and auto-heals, my health went down and stayed down, then maybe because my herald would throw a mercy heal, it would go up for a second before I'd die. One stun and it was all over. Previously I could survive stuns. After a few deaths I decided to see the difference on mobs I can just spank in yellow spec... the tomb robbers near the revive point.

I'm not making an assumptions. I have played and play a blue-traited Captain solo, which has mostly been a faceroll. I have done so in the 50s and the 60s and mostly without decked out legendaries. I know next to nothing about your virtues, gear or how level relates to your content, so this discussion is somewhat academic.

I have addressed some of your points in previous posts, but for the sake of putting keeping things organized, let's do it again.

1. Other healing classes are not intended to be engaged in face-to-face combat. The captain is, and and gears appropriately -- including being able to stack a mitigation stat without affecting its two primary functions (healing and mellee damage).

2. Captains do have DPS buffs. Outside of the critical events damage buff in blue, there are easily accessible ungated damage buffs in red, cry damage buff, attack speed buff, and potentially even Time of Need at higher levels. The blue line has access to high-damage attacks such as Gallant Display, Valiant Strike, Devastating Blow, and Elendil's Blade -- which can (and should!) be delivered with a two-hander for massive damage.

3. You certainly mean to say that other healing classes have other ways to survive _instead_ of heavy armor, because to my knowledge no other healing class can wear heavy. So far, you've patently ignoring the fact that being able to get up to 70% in mitigations is of some consequence. If that's going to be your position, I don't think there's much disagreement to be done.

4. That's funny, because that's literally what it does. For quite a bit of time. Together with applying a power heal.

In any case, I cannot quite fathom how you can't keep you life up in blue, where you have multiple proc heals, power healing RC, and a healing mark all available to you. I assume that in the 40s you still have no access to the power Inspire heal, but even without it, this is a lot of healing coming your way.

In any case, if you're losing aggro to herald (and I assume it's a herald and not an archer), there's definitely something you're doing wrong.

[Frisco]

They told us we'd have to make choices, but the only choice for me is deciding whether I'll ever resub or spend another dollar on the game. Making it so we could only use a fraction of our fun skills has made it exactly that fraction less fun.

They say the reason was so they could better balance group content, but they did a good job of that before, even with all the skills, when they bothered to try. This "you gotta choose" bs is just so they can be lazy...and I'm not convinced it's going to actually make designing encounters all that much easier.

And they didn't even succeed in making it less complicated for the casual player--they replaced all the confusion over the "skill bloat" with confusion about trait trees and specs.

All in the name of making a few extra bucks by forcing people to buy the 3rd trait-set slot.

Thumbs down for the "choose whether you want to have 60% of the fun you had before, or 65%" nonsense from a disgruntled yellow Captain.

[gripply]

In any case, if you're losing aggro to herald (and I assume it's a herald and not an archer), there's definitely something you're doing wrong.

I'll just reply to the last part. I've been playing since my last post. I've been in groups playing the Annuminas instances in Yellow spec, mostly tanking, rarely using the red spec (which also has a bleed buff - I consider bleed buff to be essential for Cappy, but it might be my playstyle). I now have my DEFENDER of Annuminas title so I'm doing something right since in my current spec, I'm not faceplanting whenever I face 45 Elite mobs, even if I shout-aggro them 6 at a time (in fellowship). I play the Cappy like a Paladin in other games that have the paladin class available... heals when available, but don't depend on it... emergency rez, buffs... mostly a tank. Could be just that I don't grok your playstyle. We can leave it at that.

I just want to say that the loot in the Annuminas instances is totally boss! I don't think buying lootboxes for more than 1g is worth it anymore. The stats on the gear that drops in the instances is much better even at the purple level, and if you get a teal, it's out of the ballpark. If turbine did one thing right, it's the redesign of the loot drops.. though I could handle getting some random loot now and then... I could use some loot for my alts. But hey, that's a small price to pay for cool gear.

I can see why LS is not available in other builds, even though I disagree with it. In other games, death saves are reserved for tanks only. And tanks often get 2-3 death saves depending on how they build their skill sets. In this game, you must build as a tank if you're a captain to get a death save (Last Stand), but he death save isn't even a real one because it's not a full heal (theoretically, if you're in a fellowship, it keeps you alive until your healer heals you, but in a game like... well I won't name another game... that wouldn't be enough because of the massive damage dealt by bosses). Compare it to the similar ability of Champions for instance. Another feature of a "real" death save is that it's a toggle skill that isn't temporary, it lasts until it is triggered by a killing blow, then expires and begins the cooldown timer. If LS were a real death save, I could see it being reserved for a specific build, but as it stands, it's a finicky skill that isn't terribly useful.

Anyway, when I wasn't tanking, in red spec, the point was that I didn't want to be gathering any threat so being in yellow would've been foolish since it would've confused the mobs. But if you're not the tank, you're sill likely to take killing damage and you're not the direct target of heals so LS would still be helpful without making you immortal. In a long fight like the Turtle, you might use it twice. Woopee. Still plenty of chances to get squished.

[gripply]

They told us we'd have to make choices, but the only choice for me is deciding whether I'll ever resub or spend another dollar on the game. Making it so we could only use a fraction of our fun skills has made it exactly that fraction less fun.

They say the reason was so they could better balance group content, but they did a good job of that before, even with all the skills, when they bothered to try. This "you gotta choose" bs is just so they can be lazy...and I'm not convinced it's going to actually make designing encounters all that much easier.

And they didn't even succeed in making it less complicated for the casual player--they replaced all the confusion over the "skill bloat" with confusion about trait trees and specs.

All in the name of making a few extra bucks by forcing people to buy the 3rd trait-set slot.

Thumbs down for the "choose whether you want to have 60% of the fun you had before, or 65%" nonsense from a disgruntled yellow Captain.

^^^ This makes me sad. Losing good players who know a lot about the game and have been playing a long time is never a good thing.

[Teyaha]

^^^ This makes me sad. Losing good players who know a lot about the game and have been playing a long time is never a good thing.

i think that many of you just have little to no actual experience in mmorpg's. why else would you constantly jump to Fox News™ extremes all the time.

the captain class doesn't even NEED last stand. it's just a nice little perk. the devs decided to put it pretty deep in yellow. oh well.

if you want the class to have competitive dps, it shouldn't have something like last stand.

if you want the class to be a competitive healer, it doesn't need a self-only death save.

the old trait system was NOT a good system. just like the pre-nge SWG was NOT A GOOD SYSTEM. (not that post-nge was better, but pre-nge swg was just macro-set camera spinning-wake up a jedi).

things had to change. classes needed to be focused. bloat had to be removed. this game has fewer players tan everquest 2. think about that for a minute. if you have ANY experience in this field of gaming beyond one or two titles, you will understand the importance of that statement.


this game has been historically inaccessible for a lot of people, and has had a near-korean level of grind. that had to change. you don't have to like it, but don't pretend that just because a vocal minority are posting the most that the masses feel at all the same way. content customers rarely speak up. message boards represent - on average - less than 10% of the actual playerbase of an mmorpg.